>>>when your OS provider decides to push a 300 Megabyte upgrade at you, what do you do?
I've downloaded Windows updates over 50 kbit/s phoneline. It takes a few hours, but it's still possible to do it. At 128k your very unrealistic example takes only five hours. Do it overnight while you're sleeping, or out partying. I don't really see your example as a problem. I don't see a 128k "speed limit" as being onerous or unworkable, especially since the college is providing it for free.
Back in my college days, it cost $10 a month. The only kind of internet that $10 can buy is a 50k phoneline connection. If my college gave me anything faster than that, I'd consider myself really fortunate.
>>>not everyone is stealing when they use the internet.
Correct. And for those who are not stealing, they don't need any more than 128 kbit/s line. That's MORE than enough speed for emailing text or accessing websites. Heck, I access websites using a 50k phoneline, and it works just fine. Why a student "needs" (keyword) more than 128k makes no sense to me.
Remember: The college is providing this internet FOR FREE. They wouldn't have to do that. They could just not provide any internet at all.
I remember those. I had a choice between a 300 bit/s modem and a 1200 bit/s modem for my shiny-new Commodore 128. Well the 1200 was $50 more, but four times faster (oooh), so naturally I chose the 1200 modem.*
* Notice I didn't say baud. * A 1200 bit/s modem is actually 600 baud. * A 2400 bit/s modem is also 600 baud (symbols/second).
>>>Except stealing fundamentally requires you to deprive the original owner of their property, which copyright infringement does not.
Yeah, but you can also steal a man's labor - which is why so many people joined Abolition movements in the early 1800s. Think about it: Would you be happy if, at the end of the week, your employer declares bankruptcy and doesn't pay your for the last two weeks/80 hours worth of work? Copyright infringement IS the same thing. It's theft of labor (an artist works to create a song; you take the product for your own enrichment).
>>>when your OS provider decides to push a 300 Megabyte upgrade at you, what do you do?
The first thing I'd do is - stop whining. I've downloaded Windows updates over 50 kbit/s phoneline. It takes a few hours, but it's still possible to do it. At 128k your very unrealistic example (since most updates are only 5-10 megabyte chunks) takes five hours. Do it overnight while you're sleeping, or out partying. Or else do it at your parents house. Or get off-campus housing. (Or don't bother since most Windows updates are trash anyway.)
> >>>128K also isn't enough for live video. Youtube extensively buffers at that speed... >
I watch youtube over a phoneline connection. I wait for the buffering to fill halfway, and then I press play to watch the video. Don't act like it's not possible to do.
>>>So, you are saying everyone using more than 128k is a pirate?
STRAWMAN ARGUMENT (logical fallacy). No I did not say that. Those words never left my mouth. Here is what I said: "Students don't need any more than 128 kbit/s line... for emailing text or accessing class websites." You are in college to LEARN, and that's what the college provides free internet for. Not other un-necessary crap.
You have it better than I did. I only had a 28 kbit/s connection, and yet I still survived college.
The answer to this question is the same answer to "How much money is lost when people download music?"
"Whatever they are willing to pay."
If, like me, they are not willing to pay anything for either Britney Spears' latest CD, or the latest Linux distro, then the value is nothing. $0.00. But the record companies always assume everyone who downloads Britney is a "lost sale", and they publish huge outlandish figures for how much value they think they've lost. I suspect the Linux estimators will make the same crucial error in their estimates. Of those who download "free" music, or Linux, probably only 10% would be willing to pay for it.
That tendency to avoid spending money needs to be accounted for, otherwise the value estimates are meaningless.
That's not such a stretch. Figure $100 worth of groceries times 40 weeks == $4000. Plus gasoline expenses. Plus 1% "on all other purchases" like hotel stays. It adds up.
>>>a music student trying to download something from a P2P network for the sole purpose of writing a report?
Why can't you just go BUY the music like everybody else? Yeah I know. Shocking concept. But the people behind the music deserve to get paid; not stolen. A music student should understand that concept better than anyone else, since he/she will soon be relying on sales for income too.
I said earlier that a simple solution is just to limit connections to 128 kbit/s. It would still allow students to access email, online radio, or class websites, but the slow speed would discourage them from downloading an illegal 50 gigabyte Bluray rip (~40 day transfer time). The imposed speed limit would make the need for university policing very minimal, since P2P theft would be next-to-impossible.
I don't see any "up side" to holding on to that. Look at Dr. McKay on Stargate Atlantis: "saving it" sure didn't help him; he's wound tighter than a watchspring.
>>>there is no practical way for students to "get their own bloody network".
Sure there is. Move off-campus and buy internet from a private company like Comcast or Cox or Verizon. Of course that also means you'd have to pay your own bills, which is quite a shocker for someone used to getting free stuff, but hey! You gotta grow up sometime.
Or you could stay in the dorm, as I did, and sacrifice some things. I never had anything faster than 28 kbit/s when I was in the dorm, and I survived just fine. No free cable television either. Or heat; I know they had the heat turned-on but it was so miniscule, I still had to stay fully-dressed to keep warm.
You said in high school you wanted to "get out in the real world". Well, this is it. It means not always getting what you want, unless you're willing to pay for it. It also means sometimes you have to obey the landlord's wishes, because it's his property.
Another example on a more-personal level: I have a credit card that gives me 5% off gasoline and food. It's only ~50 cents per fillup or 5 cents per hamburger, which is no big deal, but those pennies quickly accumulate. In just this year alone, I've received $300 in rebates. That's enough money to pay three months worth of electricity bills.
Small amounts add-up to big amounts. Small wastes add-up to huge wastes & internal corruption.
Back when the U.S. and E.U. governments were suing Microsoft, and Microsoft was trying to defend why it was "impossible" to produce Windows 98 without Internet Exploder.
>>>not everyone is stealing when they use the internet.
Correct. And for those who are not stealing, they don't need any more than 128 kbit/s line. That's MORE than enough speed for emailing text or accessing websites. Heck, I access websites using a 50k phoneline, and it works just fine. Why a student "needs" (keyword) more than 128k makes no sense to me.
> >>>If you are doing any work on big data projects like astrophysics, etc you would use a lot of bandwidth >
You don't do that stuff from your dormroom. At least, I didn't. I did major bandwidth-intensive projects in the professor's laboratory, which of course had no speed limit.
Limit bandwidth access to just 128 kbit/s per dormroom. Although it's technically possible to do P2P sharing at that speed, most students won't bother, and that reduces the necessity to police the lines to almost nothing. More importantly that speed is still fast enough to hear streaming radio, access youtube, and/or check class websites.
If the students complain, and they will, advise them that the college internet is only meant to be used for learning, not for stealing movies or tv shows. Also advise them they might want to consider off-campus housing next year; then they can buy 6000 kbit/s internet if that's what they want.
Of course. People frequently mislabel things as "standards" when they were actually proprietary formats. CDs are proprietary, as are HD-DVDs. Also laserdisc and compact cassette. And VHS is proprietary. Ditto Betacam used by the professionals.
Some have become standard by default, even though the formats are still owned by some company somewhere. For example, every time you buy a CD you pay a small licensing fee to Philips and Sony.
I can't think of a single time I've ever used the FireWire port. Not even once. My Hard Drive camera uses USB, ditto my MP3 player, ditto my external drive, and ditto my still photo camera. Even my resume is stored on a USB device.
The poor FireWire just sits there empty, just as shiny as the day I bought it.
>>Okay, Commodore/Amiga and Atari were companies not formats.
I was referring to the specific machines: Atari 400/800, Commodore 64/128, and Amiga 500/2000. These have distinctive disk formats and bus interfaces that are not compatible with IBM or Macintosh machines.
And I'm not going to stop using my Super VHS VCR just because JVC stopped making them, but it's fact that this standard I'm using is now obsolete and will eventually die.
"Standard" is not the correct word to use. It's a proprietary format owned by Apple, not a neutral standard, or even a defacto standard (like JVC's proprietary VHS). It's a format.
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>>>when your OS provider decides to push a 300 Megabyte upgrade at you, what do you do?
I've downloaded Windows updates over 50 kbit/s phoneline. It takes a few hours, but it's still possible to do it. At 128k your very unrealistic example takes only five hours. Do it overnight while you're sleeping, or out partying. I don't really see your example as a problem. I don't see a 128k "speed limit" as being onerous or unworkable, especially since the college is providing it for free.
How much?
Back in my college days, it cost $10 a month. The only kind of internet that $10 can buy is a 50k phoneline connection. If my college gave me anything faster than that, I'd consider myself really fortunate.
>>>not everyone is stealing when they use the internet.
Correct. And for those who are not stealing, they don't need any more than 128 kbit/s line. That's MORE than enough speed for emailing text or accessing websites. Heck, I access websites using a 50k phoneline, and it works just fine. Why a student "needs" (keyword) more than 128k makes no sense to me.
Remember: The college is providing this internet FOR FREE. They wouldn't have to do that. They could just not provide any internet at all.
I *never* carry a balance. I don't want to pay interest.
Yes. It took a few hours, but it still worked just fine when it was done.
I remember those. I had a choice between a 300 bit/s modem and a 1200 bit/s modem for my shiny-new Commodore 128. Well the 1200 was $50 more, but four times faster (oooh), so naturally I chose the 1200 modem.*
* Notice I didn't say baud.
* A 1200 bit/s modem is actually 600 baud.
* A 2400 bit/s modem is also 600 baud (symbols/second).
>>>Except stealing fundamentally requires you to deprive the original owner of their property, which copyright infringement does not.
Yeah, but you can also steal a man's labor - which is why so many people joined Abolition movements in the early 1800s. Think about it: Would you be happy if, at the end of the week, your employer declares bankruptcy and doesn't pay your for the last two weeks/80 hours worth of work? Copyright infringement IS the same thing. It's theft of labor (an artist works to create a song; you take the product for your own enrichment).
>>>when your OS provider decides to push a 300 Megabyte upgrade at you, what do you do?
The first thing I'd do is - stop whining. I've downloaded Windows updates over 50 kbit/s phoneline. It takes a few hours, but it's still possible to do it. At 128k your very unrealistic example (since most updates are only 5-10 megabyte chunks) takes five hours. Do it overnight while you're sleeping, or out partying. Or else do it at your parents house. Or get off-campus housing. (Or don't bother since most Windows updates are trash anyway.)
>
>>>128K also isn't enough for live video. Youtube extensively buffers at that speed...
>
I watch youtube over a phoneline connection. I wait for the buffering to fill halfway, and then I press play to watch the video. Don't act like it's not possible to do.
>>>So, you are saying everyone using more than 128k is a pirate?
STRAWMAN ARGUMENT (logical fallacy). No I did not say that. Those words never left my mouth. Here is what I said: "Students don't need any more than 128 kbit/s line... for emailing text or accessing class websites." You are in college to LEARN, and that's what the college provides free internet for. Not other un-necessary crap.
You have it better than I did. I only had a 28 kbit/s connection, and yet I still survived college.
The answer to this question is the same answer to "How much money is lost when people download music?"
"Whatever they are willing to pay."
If, like me, they are not willing to pay anything for either Britney Spears' latest CD, or the latest Linux distro, then the value is nothing. $0.00. But the record companies always assume everyone who downloads Britney is a "lost sale", and they publish huge outlandish figures for how much value they think they've lost. I suspect the Linux estimators will make the same crucial error in their estimates. Of those who download "free" music, or Linux, probably only 10% would be willing to pay for it.
That tendency to avoid spending money needs to be accounted for, otherwise the value estimates are meaningless.
That's not such a stretch. Figure $100 worth of groceries times 40 weeks == $4000. Plus gasoline expenses. Plus 1% "on all other purchases" like hotel stays. It adds up.
>>>a music student trying to download something from a P2P network for the sole purpose of writing a report?
Why can't you just go BUY the music like everybody else? Yeah I know. Shocking concept. But the people behind the music deserve to get paid; not stolen. A music student should understand that concept better than anyone else, since he/she will soon be relying on sales for income too.
I said earlier that a simple solution is just to limit connections to 128 kbit/s. It would still allow students to access email, online radio, or class websites, but the slow speed would discourage them from downloading an illegal 50 gigabyte Bluray rip (~40 day transfer time). The imposed speed limit would make the need for university policing very minimal, since P2P theft would be next-to-impossible.
I don't see any "up side" to holding on to that. Look at Dr. McKay on Stargate Atlantis: "saving it" sure didn't help him; he's wound tighter than a watchspring.
>>>there is no practical way for students to "get their own bloody network".
Sure there is. Move off-campus and buy internet from a private company like Comcast or Cox or Verizon. Of course that also means you'd have to pay your own bills, which is quite a shocker for someone used to getting free stuff, but hey! You gotta grow up sometime.
Or you could stay in the dorm, as I did, and sacrifice some things. I never had anything faster than 28 kbit/s when I was in the dorm, and I survived just fine. No free cable television either. Or heat; I know they had the heat turned-on but it was so miniscule, I still had to stay fully-dressed to keep warm.
You said in high school you wanted to "get out in the real world". Well, this is it. It means not always getting what you want, unless you're willing to pay for it. It also means sometimes you have to obey the landlord's wishes, because it's his property.
Good post.
Another example on a more-personal level: I have a credit card that gives me 5% off gasoline and food. It's only ~50 cents per fillup or 5 cents per hamburger, which is no big deal, but those pennies quickly accumulate. In just this year alone, I've received $300 in rebates. That's enough money to pay three months worth of electricity bills.
Small amounts add-up to big amounts. Small wastes add-up to huge wastes & internal corruption.
Back when the U.S. and E.U. governments were suing Microsoft, and Microsoft was trying to defend why it was "impossible" to produce Windows 98 without Internet Exploder.
>>>-- SunSpider java benchmark tests: IE: 107159.4ms, Firefox: 3894.6ms
This is a strange way of putting it. Why not simply say, "IE: 107 seconds, Firefox: 3.9 seconds"??? I guess they thought more digits is sexier.
>>>not everyone is stealing when they use the internet.
Correct. And for those who are not stealing, they don't need any more than 128 kbit/s line. That's MORE than enough speed for emailing text or accessing websites. Heck, I access websites using a 50k phoneline, and it works just fine. Why a student "needs" (keyword) more than 128k makes no sense to me.
>
>>>If you are doing any work on big data projects like astrophysics, etc you would use a lot of bandwidth
>
You don't do that stuff from your dormroom. At least, I didn't. I did major bandwidth-intensive projects in the professor's laboratory, which of course had no speed limit.
When I went to college all I had was a 28 kbit/s line, and I survived all four years. You could survive too on slower access.
I also had to walk uphill, through snow, to get to class.
No, really, I'm serious!
Penn State's snow removal team was not very good.
Or...
Limit bandwidth access to just 128 kbit/s per dormroom. Although it's technically possible to do P2P sharing at that speed, most students won't bother, and that reduces the necessity to police the lines to almost nothing. More importantly that speed is still fast enough to hear streaming radio, access youtube, and/or check class websites.
If the students complain, and they will, advise them that the college internet is only meant to be used for learning, not for stealing movies or tv shows. Also advise them they might want to consider off-campus housing next year; then they can buy 6000 kbit/s internet if that's what they want.
>>>But isn't Blu-ray proprietary too?
Of course. People frequently mislabel things as "standards" when they were actually proprietary formats. CDs are proprietary, as are HD-DVDs. Also laserdisc and compact cassette. And VHS is proprietary. Ditto Betacam used by the professionals.
Some have become standard by default, even though the formats are still owned by some company somewhere. For example, every time you buy a CD you pay a small licensing fee to Philips and Sony.
P.S.
I can't think of a single time I've ever used the FireWire port. Not even once. My Hard Drive camera uses USB, ditto my MP3 player, ditto my external drive, and ditto my still photo camera. Even my resume is stored on a USB device.
The poor FireWire just sits there empty, just as shiny as the day I bought it.
>>Okay, Commodore/Amiga and Atari were companies not formats.
I was referring to the specific machines: Atari 400/800, Commodore 64/128, and Amiga 500/2000. These have distinctive disk formats and bus interfaces that are not compatible with IBM or Macintosh machines.
I don't dispute FireWire is faster.
I simply maintain that it's future is akin to ISA's future.
Well then don't.
And I'm not going to stop using my Super VHS VCR just because JVC stopped making them, but it's fact that this standard I'm using is now obsolete and will eventually die.
>>>Apple championed the standard.
"Standard" is not the correct word to use. It's a proprietary format owned by Apple, not a neutral standard, or even a defacto standard (like JVC's proprietary VHS). It's a format.