Slashdot Mirror
Users Rage Over Missing FireWire On New MacBooks
CWmike writes "Apple customers, unhappy that the company dropped FireWire from its new MacBook (not the Pro), are venting their frustrations on the company's support forum in hundreds of messages. Within minutes of Apple CEO Steve Jobs wrapping up a launch event in Cupertino, Calif., users started several threads to vent over the omission. 'Apple really screwed up with no FireWire port,' said Russ Tolman, who inaugurated a thread that by Thursday has collected more than 300 messages and been viewed over 8,000 times. 'No MacBook with [FireWire] — no new MacBook for me,' added Simon Meyer in a message posted yesterday. Several mentioned that FireWire's disappearance means that the new MacBooks could not be connected to other Macs using Target Disk Mode, and one noted that iMovie will have no way to connect to new MacBooks. Others pointed out that the previous-generation MacBook, which Apple is still selling at a reduced price of $999, includes a FireWire port. Apple introduced FireWire into its product lines in 1999 and championed the standard."
Now I won't have anywhere to hookup my HD-DVD drive!
Isn't the new fast version of USB just as fast as firewire?
Why do mac users insist on using "different" stuff? Not that there is anything wrong with that...
Because they couldn't afford the royalty fees for using the technology? Just kidding.... but do you all remember what the original royalty fees that Apple demanded before they were forced to tone it down?
Mine has two, if you look through the RDF.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
The person who is a Mac fan is the same person who cannot stand not having what his friends have when it comes to new overpriced things.
Yeah, I'm fucking bullshit about that. Not going to buy another MacBook until they put it back.
I've got a crapload of external drives, many of which are firewire only. Pisses me off that apple drops their own widely used standard on their own equipment.
Assmonkeys.
- Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
How did they fit a tempest in that teeny little teapot? This is almost definitely a case of a very vocal minority.
This won't change anything. Apple customers who think they have a voice are just as out of touch with reality as windows users.
we mac folks like firewire because it's a constant 400 Mbs. Unless I'm mistaken (which is possible) USB 2.0's 480 is split among all the devices on the bus. So, the firewire 400 would give better performance for the transfer of large files.
read my comics, please, at http://www.funfactorycomic.com
Why apple did that ? USB is now that convenient ?
No one is really "raging". A few loudmouths (and it's always the same ones if you hang around those boards and wait long enough) are whining about not being able to plug cameras (that they don't own) into the new Macbook (which they also mostly don't own). This is bitching for bitching's sake, and I can show you. Look here:
The white macbook is still being sold in the Apple store, and will be for the foreseeable future, having just been made Apple's "cheap" notebook. And white macbooks still have firewire400. Which is exactly what these whiny people are screaming that they want.
It seems to me that a few very loud people quite badly aren't going to shut up until Jobs give each and every single one of them their own free, customized mac.
A MacRumors article has a response from Steve about the lack of Firewire, with his only explanation being that, "All the new HD camcorders have been using USB for the last two years."
Sigh, I'm probably picking up a MBP, but I know plenty of folks that use firewire for things other than camcorders (particularly good external HDs)
Nobody but Apple uses it anyway--I think they're just surrendering to the inevitable here...
"Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
What is a MacBook? Is it something like an iPod?
[Cynical alert]
Good, people shouldn't be upgrading their computers until their previous system stops working. Have any of these people given any thought to the resources required to build a computer? Oil, minerals, etc., vastly more than is necessary for most of the other things we need (like food), and very much non-renewable. I have a functional system from 2002 that is still chugging away and still serves my needs just fine -- more so, in fact, as my load averages rarely go about 0.6.
Maybe there is something about Mac fans that causes them to be excessively wasteful?
Palm trees and 8
My Firewire 400 external drives routinely kick the crap out of my USB2 external drivers when archiving large volumes of itty-bitty files.
If I remember correctly, USB2 is controllerless and requires CPU overhead and therefore the latency of USB2 sucks badly compared to FireWire (IEEE 1394x) with its controller and DMA (Direct Memory Access) channel.
This just makes sense if you have ever tried it.
FireWire 800 is even better than FireWire 400 for most anything and it is backward compatible. I believe it is much much faster than USB2 could ever hope to be and it is here NOW. (USB3 is still a LONG way off)
This is really about MONEY and Apple's either being greedy or cheap or both. Apparently they did this specifically on purpose as other 'new' models have FireWire... So, Why?
Apple is not wanting to pay the FireWire licensing fees and they are apparently wanting to push their user base into buying an affordable Hackintosh laptop (what many will likely do) or er.., will, uh... I mean Apple intends for their FireWire needing users to just pay many hundreds more for the "Pro" model that has FireWire.
As I understand it, there are also many cool things you can do with hard disk (and DVD and CD) 1-to-1 disk imaging with FireWire on the OSX macs too.. Not anymore. It's a Feature!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FireWire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Serial_Bus
Seems like it would just be a lot cheaper to just add a FireWire CardBus 54 (PCIe) notebook controller card?
Firewire is actually fairly common on even budget PC notebooks, including Dells, so this omission by Apple is all the more perplexing. And Apple still doesn't offer Blu-ray drives or 3G wireless at any price on any model. (No 3G wireless option from the iPhone company!) It also amazes me that their latest hardware refresh still caps RAM at 4G maximum. Even Dell has figured out how to go to 8G max on a notebook.
That said, there is some great design in these new MacBooks. But Apple engineers waxing eloquently about "unibody" construction (it isn't, by the way) when they forgot the damn Firewire port is a bit too much to stomach.
I've never heard people complain so vocally that they *aren't* going to spend nearly $1000 on something.
I was thinking about a new laptop, but I can wait until when snow leopard comes out.
I just called apple, and while they suggested that I might be going to hell for not buying their newest laptop every time they release one, I might be able to absolve my sins by buying two next time.
Macbook = Consumer laptop
Macbook Pro = Better than consumer laptop
If you need to do particular work, you buy the tool best associated to do the job.
I wouldn't hammer a nail in with a screwdriver.
I wouldn't buy a point-and-shoot POS over a SLR if I was a newspaper photographer.
I wouldn't get a Macbook if I needed to do any kind of video editing.
Also, the Macbook screen sucks: http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2008/10/IMG_4649.jpg
What exactly can you do only with firewire ? Is a USB-Firewire converter cable not be an option ? The only time I even needed Firewire is for my Sony DV camera who only has a Firewire port. Firewire has some advantages, but since USB 2.0 they look largely theoretical to me. Where is the beef ?
You can just plug a firewire card in to the expresscard sl... oh wait
--- Do you believe in the day?
Sorry, Steve was right, most new if not all HD recorders are USB.
Hell, I could not tell what they whining was loudest about, the fire wire or that the base aluminum macbook doesn't have a back lit keyboard (no macbook before this offered that feature anyway)
Fact is, people feel the need to be a victim or otherwise justify a decision for them. In other words, instead of admitting they had no wish to buy the new one (or means to) they can not blame Apple for not doing it. Very nice and tidy and common practice on message boards world wide. Besides getting to portray themselves as the victim they can get a sense of belonging with a possibly valid aggrieved party. It is always easier if you can blame someone else, regardless of the truth.
Yeah, it would nice nice if Firewire was there. However Firewire has always been associated with "Professional" and it has become an artifact of days gone by. Apple sunk FW themselves when they pushed USB to the forefront on iMacs and even with iPods now.
You want firewire, its easy to get, but the PRO line. It is only $400 more to the bottom end of the Pro line from the top of the "consumer" mac line.
Frankly, the new MacBooks are great. Some of the best integrated graphics seen on an Apple laptop. In fact the 9400M series removes a major reason people always held over Apple's head for not buying one before.
The real fault with the 13" Macbook is the viewing angles and color reproduction of that panel are horrible. Really cheaped out. So if you want your firewire and a great display get a Pro. After all if your buying an Apple laptop for more than sitting around Starbucks to look cool you would have gotten the Pro and never bitched
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Quite simply they needed a way to sell more MacBook Pros.
The average audio/video hobbyist/artist is not going to shell out 2 grand for a firewire port so they can record their music and capture their video.
The internet has become a giant echo chamber/amplifier for whining. And slashdot gives the whiniest whiners the mic far too often, in my opinion.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
I thought we'd dispelled the myth that Apple's computers were significantly overpriced.
Oh wait, you were trolling. In that case, nevermind.
Shit! I guess the only anti-Apple argument left is that Apple Computers are gay.
Thank you. Why people throw down thousands of dollars to get a new computer when they already have a working computer is a mystery to me.
Palm trees and 8
FW 400 (6pin) to FW 800 (9pin) via 2 seconds on google. What exactly is the point? Technology changes? Is this a new thing?
My Dell XPS laptop has a Firewire (IEEE-1394) port on it. I've NEVER used it.
The world has chosen USB for just about everything.
You can't make a USB target disk mode unless you either violate the USB standard and sell special Type A to Type A USB cables or you install a USB Type B connector in the laptops.
I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
If they're on the way to eventually eliminating Firewire I sure hope that Apple has plans to update USB support for more camcorders then.
I have a JVC hard drive camcorder that is USB and iMovie has absolutely no idea what to do with it when I plug it into any of my Macs. It seems thatt if I had chosen a camcorder with Firewire instead (which Apple themselves trumpeted as the thing to do) I'd have had no issues.
Nice.
And yet Apple will still probably sell a metric assload of new MacBooks.
Saying that hundreds of users are pissed off just means there is a small but vocal minority who are annoyed.
The vast majority of MacBook users and potential buyers couldn't care less what FW is, and probably don't even know what it is.
As a number of commentators have pointed out, the vast majority of consumer grade video cameras now use USB. Seriously, if you don't like the product, don't buy it. Is it really that hard?
Paul Leader
This is so irrational... Do you know intel isn't PPC compatible? Are cpus & ram also a complaint?
As much as it pains me: We've basically been pros leeching off the consumer product segment due to the inclusion of a port that has lost its meaning in the consumer market. If Apple can make an extra $700 off people who don't have a choice, they'd be stupid not to. :) (Though, of course, they still offer the white MacBook, so really, nothing has changed for us, except an even cheaper entry level.)
-analogika.
Firewire is absolutely key when recording audio (in my case, guitar, bass, vocals, etc). USB pushes the CPU too hard and doesn't leave it free for realtime sound processing - amp simulation, etc. Currently I'm doing it on a 2 year old MacBook, but at this point my only upgrade option is a MBP. After factoring in the cost of replacing my Firewire hardware, the MBP isn't much more expensive anyway.
Then again, I guess that's what Apple wants.
1 Question.
How?
I work for a major cable manufacturing company, which has made both the standard 6 pin firewire as well as 9 pin. what i do for this company specifically is make their catalog, and i can tell you that in our upcoming 2009 catalog we will not be offering 9 pin firewire at all, and our 6 pin stock selection has been greatly reduced. Obviously (to me) firewire is loosing in popularity (to usb) so get ready to upgrade your soon to be obsolete peripherals.
- angry over confusion
- angry over video card
- angry over southpark
- angry over upgrades
- angry over waiting in line
boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
seems to me their are fewer things that differentiate the macbook from the macbook pro now: screen resolution, processor speed (which is a questionable difference, the cpu is still limited by the bus speed, and even the macbook has a really fast processor now), video chipset, and the card slot. so now presence of firewire is one more differentiating factor.
...but come on. I'm hearing the following complaints: -"I can't hook up my DV camera." If you're going to be doing video editing, why aren't you using the MacBook Pro already? Or even better, a desktop? I just can't see doing any serious video work on a mid-range laptop. And if you want to give me the "I want to edit video on the road" bit, well then I ask you how long is that battery going to last working with big video files? -"I can't hook up my external drives." Okay this one is a bit more serious, but then again, every external drive I have ever bought has been either USB or USB with Firewire. The number of pure Firewire drives out there has to be pretty small. But even so, a new USB backup drive won't set you back more than $150 or so. -"I can't use target disk." Apple has suggested work arounds (i.e., ghosting) for transferring the system from computer to computer. But how many mainstream users actually use target disk on a regular basis, if ever. It sounds to me like Apple got rid of a feature that most of the target MacBook audience wasn't even using anyway. When I buy one of the new ones, I'll appreciate not having to pay extra for a feature I'll never use.
For consumers, BETA tapes are a dead standard. But I'm sitting here surrounded by BETA tapes from major national networks and advertising agencies.
When an industry settles on a standard, don't expect a replacement for 20-30 years. The video and audio industry expects to use firewire for at least another 10 years. By eliminating firewire from the low end laptops, Apple is imposing a "pro" tax on the A/V production industry. Considering we already pay a premium over comparable PC equipment, Apple is going to see switchers going the wrong way for this decision.
FireWire is a dying standard.
Tell that to digital video camera makers.
Most of the audio interfaces out there are FW 400, including mine, and I sometimes capture to eSata drives, so the expresscard slot can't be used for FW400 expansion.
Basically, this is a really f**** product.
1. missing FW 400
2. Missing full size DVI port, requiring a $100 adapter for my 30" cinema screen, or a $30 adapter for lower resolutions. Now that's just crazy, causing confusion among buyers as to which adpater to buy, and why the huge price difference!!! it's only a few extra wires in the $100 adapter. Really, really weird.
3. no matte screen - I hate glossy reflections
4. no trackpad button - they should have added another instead of taking away the one they had.
In summary I can't buy this generation of Macbook pro. No way. My work depends on eSata (for HD video captures) & FW400 for audio interface or for my Panasonic AG-HVX200
It should be called a macbook semi-pro, or maybe a macbook pro-lite.
I realize that video recorders and many other devices are still predominantly firewire. But for most external drives and even still cameras, USB reigns supreme and is about as fast. Probably Apple's view is that if you're into video editing, you ought to be paying the big bucks for the privilege of using firewire on a top-of-the-line machine.
Does not Apple support target-mode with USB these days? It seems like it should be possible for Apple to make the device appear as a USB mass storage device.
"Yeah, I'm fucking bullshit about that."
I believe you used the wrong metaphor there. You should have used "apeshit"
apeshit = animated with rage
bullshit = expression of astonishment, or declaration of falsehoods.
horseshit = also a declaration of falsehoods
batshit = crazy
dogshit = indication of subpar behavior or characteristics. "My Yaris is dogshit slow with a body in the trunk"
gooseshit = excessive coolness - this comes roundabout from the way one slips on goose droppings and the slang word slick=cool "That Aptera EV is slicker than gooseshit!"
I'm sure there are many others, this is just short list I came up with quickly to illustrate.
More music, fewer hits
I hope Apple gets grilled to toast for removing FireWire, because it was a stupid move. I hope they fess up by putting it back in the next revision. It seems like they did it just for product differential rather than because there wasn't enough room or needed to save a few bucks.
Things such as only having the illuminate keyboard on the higher-end model don't bother me as much as this, since if you really want it, you can still get it. But the only option to get FireWire now is to get a MacBook pro, which not only costs a lot more, but is also a lot bigger and heavier.
Firewire is a "pro" standard. Apple included it on all older computers because at the time the USB 1 standard was worthless for anything but keyboards and mice. Apple was providing a convenient method of importing video from the cameras at that time.
Now, most of the consumer-level video cameras come with a USB connection, leaving the pro-sumer and pro cameras with firewire. Anyone who does any serious video editing is not going to do it on a MacBook. They will upgrade to the MBP. It sucks for all of us who still have perfectly good cameras and external drive enclosures with FireWire, but then again, I believe Apple is targeting the MacBook at *new* users who wouldn't necessarily be burdened with all the FireWire peripherals. They also need to differentiate the MB from the MBP in some meaningful way, otherwise very few will bother to pony up for the MBP - the MacBook is that good.
As far as the existing white MacBooks having it, it's already in their design and manufacturing process, Apple makes a good profit on them without changing the specs. I'll bet that next January we'll see Apple drop FireWire from the white MacBook, maybe make a few other cost-saving tweaks and roll it our at the $899 price-point, especially if the economy turns out to be hitting them harder then they are predicting.
The nice thing about the FireWire spec is that you don't need a computer to manage the transfers. This means we will be seeing more "adapters" with perhaps an intermediate HD in them that provide FireWire-in and USB/FW-out. Not a perfect solution, especially with Final Cut Pro set up to use time-coding for final imports of projects, but then again, if you've sprung for FCP, you're not going to do it on a MacBook and I'm sure USB cameras that are high-end enough to justify editing in FCP will be able to be accurately controlled over USB as well.
This still doesn't address target disk mode, but realistically I've only used that recently to migrate data from an older machine to a newer one. I'm sure there's a way with the migration assistant to use another method to make the transfer (if anybody knows, please reply). I have to admit, I'm typing this on a MacBook Air that I've had since day-one which has no firewire and have never needed target disk mode or to connect to any of my firewire drives. I really haven't missed it in spite of having a lot of FireWire devices (XL1 cameras, FCP, external drives, etc.) I use the Air for "everything else" and my tower for video editing where I can control the lighting, use a big monitor and be connected to my Drobo backup.
"terrorism" and "pedophilia" are the root passwords to the Constitution
Then you know what? Go buy an Air.....oh wait, nevermind....that has even less shinny stuff.....
Apple drops support for X feature on a whim. How about PowerPC chips? How about MacOS 9? How about my Newton?
print $open-source-rant
The great thing about relying on a simple company is your at their mercy. You KNOW that Asus or MSI would throw a Firewire port in if they were competing with apple (and could run OS/X).
You know, it's obvious there's no magic converter to go from USB to Firewire in all possible configurations, but it doesn't mean you couldn't make application-specific dongles.
Potential cases:
- you could have a small microcontroller convert SBP-2 (the Firewire disk protocol) to USB Mass Storage class and vice versa
- you could have a small microcontroller read a DV stream and pump out a UVC (USB Video Class) stream
Seems like there's suddenly a market for such things that didn't exist before; and a shitton of potential money to be made...
Or you require a special cable with some basic smarts in the middle to mediate between the two hosts without violating anything.
If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
Target disk mode is very, very useful for when a system gets fracked. After a two-second setup you can recover data. Without it, tech support will take longer or will not be done at all for lack of skills and/or effort.
It's called get a PC and get a card for Firewire, end of discussion.
A thread that's gotten 300 replies, and 8000 views? MY GOD! That makes this almost as big an issue as "Level to 70 Killing Only Boars"!
Expect the CNN helicopter to show up real soon now!
Apple adopted FW400 before it was standard. We had to convert SONY 4pin to 6 pin Apple FW with power. It was inconvenient and criticized at the time - we wanted SCSI on every new Mac. ( Barbaric!) USB is fine, bootable, and reasonably fast. google the $8 FW 400 to 800 adapter if you need to connect FW 400 devices. The whole point in a UNIBODY design was to lower cost, price, and number of parts to make stronger, lighter, cheaper, thinner, better Macs. Steve is a design minimalist ( see one button mouse controversy) Now Steve eliminated even the ONE button. By this line of reason, you'd also have a floppy, SCSI, serial, card readers, PS2, and have another giant, ugly, PC which is heavier, messy, thick, more expensive, and relies on past technology instead of looking ahead. How do you think Apple can afford a glass multitouch trackpad with gestures, at the same pricepoint? Yes, this saves Apple money, and customers, and allows Apple an edge against EVERY PC company. Technology is always outdating old technologies. True Windows still has DOS - but Apple is all about the consumer not corporate cheapos with zero profit margins. Less ports also looks sexy, is less overwhelming & confusing for your parents who spend hours looking at all those ports trying to find the right one. This is nothing new, and there is a whole dog & pony show video explaining unibody as a logical choice for the rapidly growing notebook market.
How many MacBook (Not MaxBook Pro) owners make use of the firewire port?
My gut tells me the percentage is insignificant.
The MacBook is the laptop for college students which primarialy use them to exploit the internet, and transfer files from their ipod and camera (which use USB)
Get with the times mac-heads !! The times, they are a changin'
Note, I'm saying this as someone who still uses both firewire audio gear (I have an M-Audio Firewire 410 unit) AND a Sony Digital 8 camcorder with firewire ... so I *do* get the need for the connector at times.
But still, I think all this "outrage" is overblown. For starters, firewire is a slowly dying standard. No, it's not dead yet - but it's been struggling for years. The music industry is the biggest proponent of it still, but they're always SLOW to adopt changes - so that shouldn't come as much of a surprise. (Remember when Windows XP was released, and for years afterwards, you still had big-name audio apps that only officially supported Win '95/'98? Look how long music synthesizer/workstation makers hung onto SCSI ports as the answer for attaching your CD/DVD-ROM drives and external storage. They only started moving to memory card slots and USB ports after they exhausted their list of drive makers willing to re-brand external SCSI drives for them!)
As for camcorders? Apple's iMovie '08 total rewrite should have been the first clue on that! The main reason it was done was to support "AVCHD" video formats, as used on all the cameras popping up with built-in hard drives or flash drive storage. All of these were using USB interfaces, which older iMovie versions didn't even recognize. Go to any retail store today, and count how many camcorders on sale still use firewire! I bet it's no more than 1 in 5, and would be even less if it weren't for Sony's clinging to firewire (i.link) on their products.
Apple is known for a rather "minimalist" attitude with their products, and will delete options any time they think one is getting "old in the tooth". They were the first to ditch the 3.5" floppy drive, and go to great lengths just to eliminate switches and buttons on their products (iPhone, iPods, their very basic wireless remote control, slot-loading drives on portables with no eject button to be found on them, etc. etc.).
Obviously, they recognize that true "Pro" type users (who generally earn an income from the work they do on their computer) could still need firewire, so it's there on the Macbook Pro. It's there on all currently shipping Mac Pros too, and at least for the time being, even on consumer iMacs. (But I bet it disappears off the next revision of those too.)
Bottom line? A lot of people just wanted to try to do things with Apple's cheaper "consumer focused" portable that go a little beyond what that core market would ever care to do with one. Apple pushed back, and is forcing you to choose a "Pro" version of their machine if you're doing "Pro" things with it. Either go along with this thinking, or don't -- and use a last generation notebook that you can pick up cheaper than ever right now. By the time IT wears out, firewire will be much less attractive an option for you anyway, I suspect.
A laptop is not a necessity, especially one with firewire ports which most PC laptops still do not have. It might be a good idea to examine whether you actually need firewire especially if you are on a limited income and most camcorders coming out are USB only now.
I'm perfectly happy with my 24" iMac and I'm thinking of getting rid of my 1st gen MBP since my iPhone satisfies most of my portable computing needs.
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
Sounds like the thread was just as insignificant as the supposed issue.
Interesting idea. Though I think at that point you might as well just go ahead and ship non standard A-A cables.
I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
The Steve was quick to point out that "Actually, all of the new HD camcorders of the past few years use USB 2."
See it on Ars.
Colin Dean Go a year without DRM
Firewire a dying standard? Video camera manufacturers have been supporting it for ages and there's no sign of them moving to USB any time soon. USB is more popular since it powers mice, drives, etc. but that doesn't mean Firewire is dying by any stretch of the imagination in terms of use by professionals.
Anyone feeling a bit pissed-off should kindly let Apple know.
SCSI is to IDE what Firewire is to USB. Firewire is technically superior in many ways but is hampered by ridiculous licensing fees and complexity. It's sort of like what Sony does with a lot of their hardware. It's sometimes better than the alternatives but it utterly fails because they're greedy bastards that think people will pay anything for something just slightly better (sounds like some other company... er, Apple?). Firewire is a dead-end that was only kept alive because of Apple in the first place. It didn't die because of technical problems, it died because of greedy corporate bastards.
They probably didn't want to pay licensing anymore...
Tell that to all the photogs who have firewire harddirve for portable use. Tell that to the videographers who have firewire camcorders and want a small form factor notebook.
This was a bad move... Apples made a lot lately, I'm seeing a lot of photographers go to windows because of it.
Its one of the problems with having only one vendor.
Non-standard A-A cables would also require non-standard electronics in the USB port itself (I think!), whereas a cable could be made to work with 100% standard USB ports, and just a bit of firmware programming to expose the drive to the port when the magic key combo is held down. I'm not sure which is the better choice but it's a viable alternative.
If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
With the lower-end MacBooks, I just don't see that many people wanting IEEE-1394 ports anyway, especially now with faster machines USB 2.0 ports work well even for backups into external hard disk drives.
Most digital still cameras now use USB 2.0 connections, and even digital camcorders mostly use USB 2.0 connections, too.
>>>Apple championed the standard.
"Standard" is not the correct word to use. It's a proprietary format owned by Apple, not a neutral standard, or even a defacto standard (like JVC's proprietary VHS). It's a format.
FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
I've been saying the same thing as you!
I've never done much video editing on my older Macbook Pro 15", nor did I even do it on my 17" Powerbook G4 when I owned it....
Good video editing takes a lot of time, and I want to do it on a big display, sitting in a comfortable computer chair, at a computer desk where I've got a normal keyboard and mouse, all sitting at the proper height so it's ergonomically correct.
Using ANY laptop to edit video is a huge compromise. Even with the very latest in notebook drive technology, the biggest drive you can install in a portable is about 1/3rd. the capacity of the biggest SATA desktop drives (1.5TB) currently offered.
If you're one of these people using a regular Macbook for this stuff, attaching an external mouse, keyboard and monitor, an external hard drive, etc. ?? Well, you and I both know that's kind of a hack job anyway. Fine if it works for you, but don't cry about your missing firewire port. Because truthfully, you're just trying to do things with a consumer notebook that are in the outer fringes of its intended purposes.
We've all known from day one that USB was being pushed by Intel, against rival IEEE-1394 (aka fire-wire, aka iLink, etc.).
We also knew that fire-wire would eventually go away the day Apple said they were switching to Intel CPUs.
(this has been signaled, as we've seen Apple release patch after patch that tended to introduce more fire-wire problems than they fixed; Apples priorities were evident. Who did not know we weren't witnessing a gradual phase-out? Probably the nicest and most gradual in the history of Apple.)
We're all aware that fire-wire is faster, we're all aware that fire-wire lets you do cool stuff that USB can't even dream about, and we all know that USB needs to be arbitrated by the host's CPU (which is why Intel supports it: USB performs better; overall when you have a faster CPU - so USB increases demand for Intel's flagship products - duh. No brainer. No wonder Intel wants people to use a keyboard/mouse interface for heavy data transfers).
From day one of the PC-age, crappy inferior technology has ALWAYS won-out over superior technology.
So. . . um, duh?
Whine all you want. Be happy that fire-wire was cool, and it was around for a long time.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
That aside from the iPod, Apple is pretty irrelevant?
I wish they hadn't come out with the iPod. Apple and all of their proprietary bullshit would be gone by now.
Does Apple pay licensing fees for firewire?
But I think this is less about money and more about iNTEL.
iNTEL really, really, really wants to own all your pipes.
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
Look at this camera comparison - all these cameras are firewire. That's a little old, so here are some newer ones :
Cannon XL H1S : IEEE 1394 (i.e., Firewire)
Sony XDCAM EX : Sony I.Link (i.e., IEEE 1394, i.e., Firewire)
I bet the (very Mac centric) video community will be pissed.
Not while iNTEL owns USB.
USB is good for keyboards and maybe printers.
But iNTEL owns USB and they want to own your pipes. All of them.
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
Quit complaining. Macs are terrible anyway. If i was computer retarded and only used one for pictures and movies, i might be mad. But face it, when it comes down to it, a Mac is only a big hard drive with cool picture editing programs and more advanced standard hardware an average Mac user will probably never use to its full potential. Bottom line, i can do the same crap on my Windows system that you can on your mac. so while youre calling my system a pc and yours a mac, im laughing while you dont know why. GG mac users.
Mac is not a platform for choice. You have 1 hardware manufacturer that can legally ship the OS. You can't complain when that 1 manufacturer makes a decision you don't agree with -- thats the nature of being locked in to one company. Thats not necessarily a knock on Apple, they make high quality products because of it.
Yes, FireWires is far more superior standard to USB2, but... market defines which standard is being used. USB2 devices are cheaper and more common. Even camcorders come with ability to use USB2 as video upload protocol and eSATA is taking over in external disk area. So, what is left for FireWire?
I think FireWire still is a great choice for Professional, high end use. I guess Steve's idea of removing that option from consumer lower end models is not at that crazy as it sounds.
I will repeat that: peripherals define standards... Some of FireWire camcorders do support FireWire... but at speeds of 100Mbps! Like first model of Sony HD... WTF?!? Any how many of us fried FireWire by short-circuiting port with bad cables? FireWire is high power port. I have fried 2 laptops myself that way - only way is to replace motherboard. As much as I love FireWire as a standard... oh, well.
People complaining about the lack of a FireWire port on the new macbook are a bit stupid. If you want choices in what features your hardware has, buying Macs doesn't make sense at all. Don't get me wrong, OS X is great. But is it worth having no choices? XP has been rock-solid stable for years, and if you buy a ThinkPad (for example) you have the following options that Apple does not offer on any of their new laptops:
Matte screens
Hi-res screens
BluRay
2 hard drives installed
VGA or DVI output without an adapter
A quality keyboard (yeah, I said it)
Actual mouse buttons
TrackPoint style navigation
Fingerprint Reader
Built-in 3G/WWAN networking
Built-in Wireless USB
Tablets (x61t, x200t)
Subnotebooks (12" x200 models, etc.)
Hotswap between 2nd hard disk, dvd-rom, bluray devices
The list is pretty huge. Point is, there are a TON of very worthwhile hardware features that you can't get on the new Mac laptops. How relevant is the OS at this point anyway? Start thinking about functionality more than design aesthetics.
No, that's very true. M-Audio gear is "prosumer" grade, at best. I'm not a professional audio engineer or musician. It's a hobby for me. I used to play rhythm guitar in a local band, but that was over a decade ago - and was really just a "phase" for me. I still like tinkering with music though. (Every time I've decided to just sell off all my music gear, it seems like a buddy comes along and wants to "jam" on some Saturday evening or what-not, and I get the urge to buy some stuff back again. So I've learned that "once a musician, always a musician" saying has some truth behind it. I just keep my instruments now....)
What I meant in my original post, though, was -- one can loosely describe Apple's definition of a "pro user" as anyone who is an "enthusiast", "power user" or earns money with what they do with their computer. If you really don't fall into any of these categories, and just want a cheap notebook because it's needed for a few music things you do (say, maintaining a tone library for your Line 6 guitar processor or something?), why are you fixated on buying a "latest and greatest" Macbook revision anyway?
The new MacBook comes across as a half-step in the transition to a new machine (which you will then pay for as well.)
Graphics are improved but Firewire is gone with no suitable replacement yet. And the processor is 64-bit but the memory is still limited to 4GB. DVI is gone (I too question the need for a mini connector when full size Display Port is so reasonable) stepping you up to Display Port while obsoleting your old external monitor(s). Also the illuminated keyboard model cost substantially extra.
In addition I haven't heard any reports about video color depth on the monitor? Is 6-bit color which is useless for photo editing and some other apps gone forever or still lurking here in the LCD?
I would expect the next refresh of this model to step-up to USB3 (certainly Intel will ensure that Apple has USB3 chips first because the publicity there is the highest) to end the whining about the missing FW, at least 8GB ram capacity, and illuminated keyboards across the line, along with CPU, GPU, and harddrive bumps.
Until then this seems a glass either half full, or half empty, and if you don't need the GPU performance makes the white plastic model an appealing choice. Buy this half-step between the white plastic MacBook and the MacBook Pro now and you may feel a bit screwed not all that far down the way.
One is left to wonder if some clever person can build an FW400 adapter that bridges into both USB2 ports? I'd expect that FW support must remain in the OS for now.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Ancient standards and hokey fandom is no match for a good USB peripheral.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Because of course computers never break. And it's not like buying a new one can be cheaper than the repairs, especially with laptops. No, not at all...
I just grab another one out of the recycling bin, scrub the hard drive to get rid of the worms and viruses that made the original owner throw it out, and load Ubuntu.
Seriously, I'm not kidding. I've got a stack of 4 Dell laptops in the chair behind me right now, people throw them out because "they're too old and slow" when all that's wrong with them is that they've been hooked up to a broadband ISP and infested with virii.
You can get computers for $40 or less at yard sales or from almost any newspaper's classified section.
How about everyone take a deep breath and Google for 'Macbook Firewire card'.
The Macbook does come with with one of those seldom used ExpressCard/34 slots on it. It took me all of five seconds to find an expansion card for that very slot that offers two Firewire 400 ports and one USB port for 40 bucks with a one year warranty. Other options offer Firewire 800 connectivity at a price premium, of course.
I have a feeling this will not give access to target disk mode. (although I'm not sure if that is the case) If so, that will give the haters something to still bitch about.
It's a win-win for the people who just wanted to hook up their Firewire peripherals and the haters who are compelled to tell the world that this Macbook is teh suck because it doesn't run on rainbows and My Little Pony farts.
You can't make a USB target disk mode unless you either violate the USB standard and sell special Type A to Type A USB cables
That's not a violation, as long as there's some sort of bridging circuitry in the middle:
I've seen similar cables for sale in Walmart*, marketed for use to migrate files from a PC running Windows XP to a PC running Windows Vista.
Are you really sure that's the case? I honestly don't know, but it would seem to me that a gigabit ethernet connection might suffice, if the music industry adopted that as a new standard?
Sure, it would require a bit of a learning curve (because you'd have to explain to people that they can't just plug their gear into a $30 10/100 switch full of other devices doing misc. Internet and LAN traffic, and expect proper results) ... but on a dedicated, quality gigabit switch just for the music gear to interconnect and go to a dedicated port on the computer? Would this be an option?
I'd also think some other options could be cooked up that haven't even been explored yet. (EG. What about a new cabling standard that would plug into the SD/SDHC card slot in a device, but instead of being an actual flash card - it was just a way to tap into those connectors? What kind of latency and throughput could you achieve from that slot, if you weren't restricted to the read/write speeds of a memory card?)
If you are connecting multiple hard drives at the same time, why are you wasting your money on external drives?
Because I can use them with a different computer while one computer is in the shop. Or because one hard drive is in the camcorder and the other one (order of magnitude bigger) is for storage of unedited footage.
If IO latency is so important to you, why are you using a notebook?
Because we are recording (or perhaps even playing) a live performance. Or would you answer such an application with "Get a MacBook Pro already"?
The fact is that almost all other laptops within (and below) that price range have a firewire port (as well as 3 USB ports, card readers, etc.) - and for people like myself who are in the market to buy a new laptop and who would LOVE to own a Macbook (but don't have $2000), and who also like to use their computers, even occasionally, for audio recording, the new Macbook is completely unusable, since USB sucks for that.
If Apple's competitors can include firewire with a $1000 laptop, why should I be forced to pay $2000 for a comparable Apple product?
The loss of Target Disk Mode is a big deal. I've used it to retrieve data from laptops with a bad display or bad logic board and wipe the disk of those laptops before taking them in to be repaired. I've also used it to install Tiger (OSX 10.4) on G3 iMacs which didn't have a DVD drive.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
You are right, Betamax is dead, but Betacam is still in use. They are two different formats.
I don't think Apple will be too upset that the audio and video industries will have to buy their top end models. What video professional would be happy with an entry level system anyway?
The moment I realized there was no firewire on the new MacBooks, I knew I couldn't upgrade.
I had been planning on giving my wife my Blackbook and buying a new one - but how can I? I'd have no way to transfer my videos, no way to connect my firewire-based external HD.
Clear, Dark Skies
welcome on new ill-informed anonymous coward overlords!
Yeah, and this is pretty much my take on it. The amateur and pro-am creative folks who are footing the bill out of their own pockets will just migrate to another platform. There's plenty of audio apps for Windows that work fine, but it's still too bad. Garageband is really unparalleled for quick and dirty live audio production.
The plural of virus is viruses. Under the rules of Latin, virii is the plural of virius, a word that doesn't get much use because it doesn't exist.
I agree with you about the free computers. I just got a free Windows XP Media Center system with a 3GHz P4 processor and a 250GB hard drive because it wouldn't boot into Windows. Even came with the restore disc. Wipe and reinstall and it runs fine.
Not that I have much use for a Windows system.
Well, maybe, but the fact is that Firewire is already widespread through that market segment and it *works*. It works *really* well. There isn't a current need for a new interface, other than the days old "Apple is abandoning it problem".
It seems simple. Apple is phasing-out FireWire 400, as it is on about even-footing with USB 2.0 and can't compete. It is keeping FireWire 800, but treating it (correctly) as a pro feature. That means it is only on the MacBook Pro.
My Photography - http://ian-x.com
The Deathlings (comic) - http://thedeathlings.com
Sharks are fish. As long as they are able to move through the water a little bit (i.e. move enough water over their gills) they will be fine. All it would need to do is keep opening and closing its mouth to do that, since it's not burning very much energy trying to swim.
The More You Know.
The new mini better not drop it as it has the room.
HEAR is the list no no for the new mini.
Intel atom weaker cpu, weaker video, max 1gb of ram and NO Gig-e.
Mini display port on system with out shipping the Mini display port to DVI and Mini display port to display port with the system pay $30 more to be able to use your display on a desktop?
who puts a $900 24" lcd on a $500 desktop? even with a $800 it is still a joke.
gefore 8400m with out it's own ram come on $800 desktop that uses system ram for video?
1gb of ram no way at $600 and f* you at $800
combo drive
small hd
no firewire
mac pro starting at $2500 with high cost ddr3 ECC and weak base video card.
if apples does most of whats on this list then they are just asking for Pystar and efix to used on better systems.
Hey, you can bet I'm still pissed about the iMac, with their switch from ADB to USB, making my WACOM tablet obsolete.
(in fact, the fucker's still working JUST FINE on my beige G3 - wish I could connect this $600 monstrosity to my Pro.)
Will it not work with a USB to ADB adapter like this? $39 doesn't seem like a bad price to possibly rescue a $600 device.
Putting moderation advice in your
The removal of Firewire from the "consumer" version of the MacBook shouldn't come as much of a surprise. Apple stopped supporting Firewire on pods at least two generations ago. My mini supported it, and my video does not. It sounds like Apple is going to eliminate Firewire altogether in a few more years as accessories that support it are obsoleted with newer versions which do not support it. It looks like USB won the war despite being less desirable from a technology standpoint. The newer versions of USB do seem to have pretty decent performance.
You mean like this one?
http://www.belkin.com/easytransfercable/
-------
1. Enjoy your job
2. Make lots of money
3. Work within the law
Choose any two.
No biggie. I'll just go for the Pro. How much more is it? Like 10 hours of work?
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>> viewed over 8,000 times
it's over 9000 now
Being smug aint cheap.
I'm buying Apple because I switched from Free UNIX.
Windows isn't a "choice". Windows doesn't have the essential functionality I need. I tried for years to get along with just a Thinkpad, one that didn't have good open-source driver support, and found that I was spending most of my time patching programs so they'd run under Interix or just using my laptop as a smart terminal back to my UNIX box at home. This has nothing to do with the "design aesthetics" of the OS, which is why Microsoft so badly missed the boat by trying to make eye candy the big draw for Vista. If OS X looked like NeXTStep or Rhapsody (NeXTStep with a 'platinum' theme), I'd still pick it over Vista Me.
I use a Fujitsu lifebook (circa 2003) and it has a firewire port. Looks like I'm NOW in the market for peripherals seeing as the price for them will (hopefully) drop. Thanks Steve!
It's all history, man. -anon
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Go ahead and complain all you want. Apple doesn't care what you think.
Apple is a snob. Just like almost EVERY Mac person I have EVER met. (....and I know allot)
You are slaves to their shiny objects and they know it.
You will complain and complain yet you will still buy their OVERPRICED garbage.
APPLE DOES NOT CARE WHAT YOU THINK!!!
Seriously, why should they? Name one time Apple has changed for you. Doesn't matter to them because you ALWAYS buy whatever they tell you to.
Has anyone missed the fact that FW800 is compatible with FW400? With the proper cable or adapter, you can have your cake and eat it too.
http://directron.com/msc512006.html
There are many things Firewire does that USB cannot do. Their applications overlap slightly, but not entirely. Firewire isn't good for keyboards and mice. And USB isn't good for peering or high speed/low cpu usage.
As long as Sony keeps shipping i.Link on their products, I don't see a need for firewire going away.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
C'mon! Wasn't this one obvious?
Fanboi: "Wah! Wah! Macs are too expensive"
(Apple then releases a cheaper mac, that obviously has to sacrifice a few things)
Fanboi: "Wah! Wah! My high-end feature is missing"
You can't have it both ways. Few consumer laptops have firewire ports for a reason: Devices are very expensive. If you can spend $500-800 on a DV w/firewire, you can shell out a few hundred more for a pro, buy the older macbook instead, or get a desktop. Besides, I thought iMacs and Macbooks were meant to be introductory?
Why can't all fpga/microcontroller manufacturers just release free optimizing compilers???
Firewire is fast and offers some unique capabilities which aren't possible with USB (ie. target disk mode), but leave the computer completely open to hackers.
Firewire gives attackers complete access to the system, and concept code is available that makes it absolutely trivial to compromise any activity happening on any laptop with Firewire. The only way to mitigate the risk of attack is to implement a pre-boot full disk encryption solutions, which Apple does not provide. Third party solutions are available, but are very expensive.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
I'm a huge Apple fanboy, former Apple employee, currently high-ed IT guy. I also have a first-gen MacBook that I want to replace. I can manage with the three ports on my current machine but cutting it down to two and removing FW kills the deal for me. I have numerous FW hard drives, FW scanner, and I use target disk mode enough that I can't buy one of the new machines. So I guess I'm screwed and Apple lost a sale. :(
Someone already pointed this out to Steve - his 'response' was that most, if not all DV camcorders made nowdays use USB 2.0
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
But you're missing the most important aspect, which is the Target Mode which (currently) only works via Firewire. If you've got a hosed (non-booting) Mac, you can still boot it up holding the T key on your keyboard, and it will boot into said Target Mode, operating as a simple Firewire HDD that can be connected to any other machine. You can then copy over any data from the machine, or even use the great Migration Assistant to migrate the complete user account to the other machine in a matter of minutes, reinstall OSX on the hosed machine and tell it to migrate said user account, data and settings back onto the machine. Oh, and the Migration Assistant can also migrate the installed applications and settings, if you wish.
If you need another example - I'm on a MBP at work, and when the PHB needed some machine to display our 3D-fu in a pitch, I simply migrated my software and accounts to a Mac Pro which was free that day, then migrated the co-workers account and software (3D, the Adobe stuff I don't need) to the MBP, and handed the MBP to the PHB. They went to the client, I worked on the Mac Pro, everything worked perfectly, they handed me the MBP back, I used the Migration Assistant the other way around, and was back without even noticing I've been on a different machine. All this took a handful of mouse clicks (and of course the time it took to copy the data over Firewire, some minutes). Everything included in OSX, out of the box. Do that with a Windows or Linux machine.
Target Mode is teh GOD. As the CTO of a media production company which is almost completely on Macs, I won't buy any machine which comes without Target Mode capability.
Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?
i thought apple didn't have to pay the licensing fee... as they were the ones who received said fees for the 'Firewire' brand name. ... vs. Sony's 'iLink'.
Ok, so not everyone is likely to post on the Apple forums, but 300 messages? This sounds like it's an awful lot of noise coming from an awfully small group of people considering how large Apple's marketshare is.
(Still think removing FW was premature BTW)
Get me a meat pie floater!
Why would a 2 year old lowest end macbook owner not want a Macbook Pro for Audio anyway? Buy the $8 FW 400-800 adapter if you still need the cheapest laptop. BUT All the Audio/MIDI engineers at Apple have added time stamping, to their 32 bit float (up to 10,000 Khz) Audio support. I have no idea what your setup is, hardware/ software - but plug ins & slowers CPU issues would be resolved with a faster Macbook, obviously a Pro version if the low end isn't enough.
Newb? I was a newb back in 1985 when I started using macs, you young whippersnapper. Se/30 with dual floppies for teh win newb!
- Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
1. Drop Firewire from MacBook.
2. Angry users buy new MacBook Pro instead.
3. Profit!
Seriously, there is a ton of room for more keys on my MacBook Pro. Why do I have to hold "FN" for so many of them?
Worst keyboard ever! Where's the outrage for that?
For a product that prides themselves so much on UI, they still can't get a keyboard and mouse (one mouse button? seriously?) right!
I am very happy that I bought my Mac Book Pro this spring and did not wait for the next version. Both the Mac Book and Mac Book Pro are ugly abysmal steps backwards.
I've seen that keyboard before, it looks like the old TI99-4A keyboard.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/139100-9/the_10_worst_pc_keyboards_of_all_time.html
I'll just upgrade my memory and keep my MBP for a few years until this line of ugly and featureless MBP's continue.
Oh, as far as the fire wire port goes, who the heck uses that? I have never used it. There are very few FW devices and they usually cost more.
Most mac owners I know would never be caught dead in a place as corporate as Starbucks.
But you're missing the most important aspect, which is the Target Mode which (currently) only works via Firewire.
Is there any good reason why it could not be made to work over USB? Naively it would seem that a rewrite of the firmware is all that would be required. Has any one asked Apple about it?
There is an SD card interface, it's called SDIO. You can already get a card that plugs into your digital camera that will connect over wifi(without requiring any support from the camera) and transfer the pictures you take to your computer. I know the SD spec goes up to 30 MB/s, but I don't recall the latency.
Plus, SDIO spec is royalty free, IIRC, although the SD spec is not.
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You are indeed correct.. A good modern beta deck that supports all the new beta formats will run you ~$20,000... Move into the HD world and Betacam HD, and you'll be pushing $40k for a deck. "Pro" tax indeed.
appleguru.org
Mac users everywhere combed their hair.
Back to you, Morbo.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
DV cameras (and associated transports such as HDV, DVCPRO, etc.) actually operate at S100 (100mbps). It should be possible to construct an interface that lets these low-speed firewire devices operate over USB2.
In a lot of cases the issue is not bandwidth, but CPU usage and latency.
FireWire chipsets use DMA and so avoid the CPU entirely.
Removing the Firewire port from a Mac equals to killing one of its biggest niches: the professional musician. When it comes to audio and MIDI USB still is a terrible choice with its much higher latencies and general instabilities. Don't be fooled by theoretical speed figures, Firewire is faster, much faster, and stabler than any USB implementation.
Restricting any pro musician to use USB on a Mac is like asking him to switch to a Windows laptop with Firewire compatibility.
You can get a nice 20" LCD for 150.
That said, the monitor is the most important piece of the computer. It's what you are going to look at all day, and it can be used with many computers. Meaning you don't ahve to re-buy it when you replace the computer. The exception buying computers built into the monitor, but your post is about the mini.
Fire-wire is dead. Whether or not it was a good standard is irrelevant. It has not gained wide adoption in years, and it's performance gains over new USB is negligible. Mostly becasue very few systems can top end the fire wire bandwidth.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Apple obviously implemented Target Disk Mode via USB.
And yet Apple will still probably sell a metric assload of new MacBooks.
how many metric assloads in a library of congress?
Oh yes, and I can run VMware under Linux, and I can run Windows in that for the application software that needs Windows. Or I can dual boot.
But that still leaves me running Windows. It leaves me running Windows less often than the other way around, but it still leaves me running Windows. I tried that on my desktop, and ended up with my desktop being the dumb terminal and my home server being where I did all the work, but that's kind of harder to do with a laptop. There are tricks you can do, like running a UNIX VM under Windows (you do it that way around because UNIX is more flexible and less picky about its environment, where Windows is an uppity sub) but... damn.
With Mac OS X I get the OS that doesn't suck, and I get actual applications I need to run that aren't available for Linux, and I don't have to bring up Windows more than once a month, and I don't have to play musical shared folders to share data between the UNIX environment and the Windows swamp because the only reason I'm using Windows anywhere is to run Honest Joe's Proprietary VPN or some other nasty software that only does Windows.
I knew that the cake was a lie, but no BBQ either?
Gosh, I never coulda seen this coming!!!
I mean, all of those Apple fans bought into a computing ecosystem that is under the complete and total control of one (1) vendor. Don't like the direction their hardware is going? Well, you're SOL, cause you can't use their software without their hardware.
This is why I laugh whenever people tell me Mac OS X is as good as Linux. Linux isn't just good because it's Unix-like. It's good because it's completely free and open and can run on everything from a Cray to your grandma's toaster.
My bicyles
The objective behind using an analogy is to explain something not understood by your audience by comparing it to something understood by your audience.
I am truly surprised, with your 4-digit ID, that you would believe that anything but a very small percentage of Slashdot readers would know enough about sex to be able to understand a sex analogy. (I can't use the "You must be new here" because of your 4-digit ID, but you get the point.)
A sex analogy would be lost on the majority of Slashdot readers.
Pretty much. That particular cable won't replace Target Disk Mode because it's going to require an actual OS to be up and running, whereas TDM could function with nothing but firmware. But certainly the firmware could be modified to work with that cable, or a similar one.
If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
As a Mac shop, I really need firewire on the Units, when I get a set of new Macs I create my perfect install on one and back up with Superduper to a .dmg file, then when setting up or after a HD replacement I can use the installer CD to run disk utility on restore from the master image. These images can exceed 20 GB, and doing such over USB would not be very sane.
I would factor missing FW in my future purchases for work.
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
LiveCDs in concept should work fine; Apple certainly hasn't disabled them to my knowledge - you can definitely boot from arbitrary media. The OS X install DVD is bootable and has disk tools, also.
However, there just aren't a plethora of available CDs for your average user to download and run. According to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LiveDistros#Mac_OS-based
There's BootCD which doesn't support anything about 10.3
OSx86 (for Hackintosh's) supposedly has some LiveCDs, which I would presume also work on a real mac.
It's not exactly legal for someone to mangle OS X onto a liveDVD, so there's not the zillion options Linux users have.
I'm pretty sure if you had a Linux/BSD LiveCD that supported the hardware and supported the filesystem, it'd work fine.
But 'fine' still wouldn't include, for instance, being able to run OS X executables. All of that is still a ton of work.
***
And while it has its own advantages (not needing another machine) even a totally working liveCD is in some ways NOT as cool as Target Disk. In Target Disk you can run arbitrary applications etc from EITHER disk in most cases, and those applications can have access to writable space on the host machine. You can ALSO do things like install from DVD media to a machine that only has a CD - put the DVD in your newer machine, hook the older one up as a target disk, and install like any other external media.
With a liveDVD you didn't personally make, you ALSO have the problem that whatever other info you're trying to deal with isn't there. (Like the tool you just downloaded to fix today's problem.) So you have to deal with that stuff over the network, I suppose...
Of course Target Disk Mode is ALSO a solution to having a permanently broken ethernet adapter and backing up your info before you replace the MB - you can transfer all the files via TD. TD is just extremely convenient.
*****
With all that said, though... I can get behind their decision to remove the hardware to trim costs. I think the MB SHOULD try to trim costs. I think the lack of TD sucks right now... and I hope they make up for it in software.
Specifically, I hope that they will make it so at the very least you can - with Mac like ease and using Apple-provided media that you are allowed to add tools to, boot without the disk, make a proper network connection, and have AFP sharing in any direction you want with complete access to the disk.
Looking for freelance Actionscript (Flash/Flex) or ColdFusion work and/or freelance developers. Email me, put Slashdot
I have two LaCie firewire drives and a firewire iSight. I didn't get USB/Firewire drives because when I got them the only dual mode drives I could find were using a flakey Promise firewire chip instead of a good Oxford 911 chip.
I'd like to buy a USB iSight, but you discontinued the product completely.
PS: Why bother putting an external monitor connection on your laptops and then include a camera that you can't use with the lid closed?
Many of my peers use Macs for the Final Cut Pro & Pro Tools and cannot work without firewire. In fact we are best off with firewire 800. I know Mac is trying to broaden its user base, but I suspect they can't afford to alienate this niche group. Yeah I know, media users could just throw gobs of money for the bigger systems, but these days most of us don't have gobs of money. That stated I don't know if media users will upgrade until we see what we need for a reasonable price.
All glory to the Hypnotoad!
1) People use firewire?
2) People use the base MacBook for video editing?
3) People use firewire?!?
at least put e-sata in then
Right macbois?
Now millions of Apple fans have to go and buy a Firewire to USB adaptor, poor little darlings... Sniff... Waaah...
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
The debate was over once the performance difference between SCSI and ATA wasn't big enough to justify the additional cost
Have you ever actually compared the difference between sata and sas systems? It has a much larger effect on responsiveness than going from a 2GHz to 3GHz CPU. Almost all of our systems use SCSI or SAS drives.
It's the CPU difference which really matters. A decent SCSI system will sit at 80-100% utilised and the CPU will be close to idle. My personal desktop system. 15k RPM SAS drives. Waiting for computers is boring.
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Getting music equipment manufacturers to adopt standards has always been an exercise in cat-herding. My studio is quite modest, and almost every piece of gear has some interface unique to itself. The sampler has SCSI, the controller keyboard has USB, the audio interface has FireWire, the Roland module has the R-Bus connection that not even Roland uses anymore, there's a synth with a "to-host" serial port.
About the only standard that everyone can agree upon is MIDI (which was adopted jointly by the two heavy-hitter manufacturers back in the day) which is why everything still has a MIDI in and out 25 years later. There are some products that use Ethernet, for example the Muse Receptor, but I think the problem is that nobody wants to adopt a new standard until they're sure everyone else has adopted it, or else it's a wasted investment. I've believed for quite some time now that the major hardware manufacturers need to settle on some kind of MIDI-for-the-21st century specification, but perhaps it's a moot point now as people turn more towards software tools for audio synthesis and production.
Where is my Macbook with:
Apple Desktop Bus port
10 USB ports
Firewire (400 and 800)
Floppy Disk
Minidisc
CD-ROM *AND* DVD drives
DVI
mini-DVI
component video
composite video
S-Video
HDMI with HDCP
VGA
Optical audio out
optical audio in
Gasp, mini-DVI? I have to use a $20 pigtail to VGA or DVI? Where's the whaaaambulance!?!?!
You know, one thing I really appreciate on my white Macbook is the lack of extraneous ports.
It pisses me off that my iMac has firewire ports but not enough USB ports. About damn time that they start getting rid of firewire. I've never had any device that used firewire.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
Let's face it:
FireWire is on its way out due to USB's huge dominance... if it's not discontinued now, it will be eventually. It will join the ranks of all the other discontinued proprietary formats like Atari, Commodore, Amiga, VHS, Betamax, DivX, HD DVD, and so on.
Firewire (aka IEEE 1394) is not proprietary. And it meets needs that USB does not.
It is isochronous, and supports high-end digital camera and camcorders better, with higher stability (less 'jitter' than USB).
It also doesn't force you to think about hosts and targets, and worry about whether the connector will fit. USB forces you to worry about which device is the host, and which is the target.
For example:
Connect PDA to PC - works OK.
Connect Scanner to PC - works OK.
Connect PDA to scanner - Hmm..
With firewire, this isn't an issue. As a result, I've been advocating firewire for interconnecting software-defined radio components for some time.
Because Ye Olde Culte of Jobs has demanded that you drink the Kool-Aid and pronounce it good!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
I can't count the number of times my ass has been saved by being able to boot my powerbook/ibook/macbook as a firewire drive.
The original comment was about using Target Disk Mode to recover files off of a computer's hard drive. There is no reason why a LiveCD wouldn't work. Linux is able to read the contents of a mac hd just fine, and in this context, there is no need to run os x executables just to handle data recovery. And its not like a liveCD is incapable of having more tools installed on it while its running - the package manager (or manual installation) can still install the kinds of tools you would want for data recovery.
As for things like installing from DVD on a CD-only machine from another machine with a DVD reader, it sounds like the kind of thing that networking would be able to handle nowadays. I don't know macs that well, but it would be pretty trivial on linux at least.
The gpu is not relevant. I have a macbook and it works fine for lightroom and photoshop. Photography is getting competitive and cameras are pricer than in the film days so price matters. By not including a 5$ port apple pushed it makes the computer more expensive.
I know a couple documentary producers and many photographers for which portability is a big deal. People really want a 12/13 inch macbook pro. There are mini-dv/dvcam portable video players with firewire. Many semi-pros want portability too. Plus a lot of use have portable firewire hardrives (bus powered) that we couldn't use with the new machines.
Apple is moving away from the semi-pro space. Their overpriced towers put a lot of photographers off, when a $1000 windows machine runs photoshop/lightroom fine. I'm seeing an exodus from mac hardware among photographers which as a shareholder concerns me greatly (I've sold 1/2 my shares this year). Unfortunetly apple is the only mac vendor..
I'm hoping adobe ports stuff to linux.
We don't like to think it but there's a lot in a name, Mac calling it the trademarked 'firewire' and all others calling IEEE 1394 didn't help. Yeah they finally did, but too late.
Probably sounded like a good idea back when they were designing these puppies (that manufacturing line didn't build itself overnight):
Punter: No Firewire? No worries, my old camcorder's SO out of warranty, my external HD is only 250G (Oooh! 1TB time capsule!) and I'm pre-approved for a platinum MasterCard. Actually, what the hell, I'm refinancing next year and I've got equity so I'll get the MacBook Pro. Now... need DVI adaptor... mmm, but the new cinema display comes with the right lead anyway, how are my Morgan Stanley shares looking...
I think Apple need to re-think their marketing strategy for the new era:
Hi, I'm a PC. I listened to sound financial advice and invested all my money in a bank offering above-inflation interest, which has just gone bust.
Hi, I'm a Mac. I told my financial advisor to go short himself and gave all my money to Apple. Like PC I'm now broke - unlike PC I've got this really cool computer made out of glass and aluminum. I don't care that it hasn't got Firewire 'cos I can't afford the electricity to run it, but true beauty is without price.
In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
I remember talking to a Apple Engineer when the first MacBook Pro and MacBook were coming out the lack of a small format MacBookPro and the Apple Engineer said that MacBook will fill that gap. That was okay when they had good performance, Firewire and Target Disk mode. But now they removed Firewire and Target Disk mode from the MacBooks this will render the MacBook to the "truly" consumer laptop and not a small format MacBookPro. I wish they would release an small format (ie 12 to 13 inch display) MacBookPro to fill this gap and leave the MacBook as a true consumer laptop without the Firewire.
Many professional loved the 12-inch PowerBook most people complaining about the lack of Firewire is there is no small format MacBookPro.
Apple, please create an small format MacBookPro.
Another problem is only glossy display. Please allow us, the people who buy Apple hardware, to decide which display to get. I have glossy display MacBookPro and I have some loves but have some hates on the glossy display. I, other Apple buyers, would like to have an option for matte or glossy display.
I am very angry at the man for crippling such a beautiful computer as the MacBook. I want to kick his sorry hippy ass for this!
Beauty is in the beholder of the eye.
I think I can make a comment here as a more-or-less unbiased/disinterested observer as I have never owned any Macintosh and my only experience in the last ten years was occasional use of the one my sister had until she got disgusted with its continued inability to print and switched to Windows. So I have no involvement with Macs and I think therefore I am impartial on the issue.
I have two computers (that I regularly use), an HP Pavilion A305W which is something like 4 or 5 years old, running XP, and it's what I'm typing this on now.
My other computer - which for some reason is not working right now; I'm having a problem getting the power switch to work - is an HP Pavilion s3220n, 64-bit dual core. This computer cost me $400 a few months ago for a refurbished model, made a year ago if the BIOS date means anything, and which was I didn't like it but it runs Vista. When it works, it works great.
The 3220 includes a firewire adapter, or at least it looks like it, it has a logo which looks like a weird "Y" and a label "1394" which I would figure is for firewire (and no, the 1394 in my username has nothing to do with that!) So if my computer, which is low end, has a firewire connector, clearly the issue is not over the cost of including it, which, if I understand correctly, is about $2 at the manufacturer level.
Sometimes it can be stupid, historical precedent. I have a flatbed scanner, it retailed for under $80, I think, and came with the USB cable it used. Wouldn't have been a problem, the computer store sells - at retail - 6' USB cables for as little as $1 or $2. I have seen high-end $400 multifunction machines - fax, print, scan - which because they are considered printers, do not include the same USB cable that costs $2. Simply because years and years back, scanners included the cable - often because it was non-standard - and printers did not include the cable (because a printer cable was expensive at $10 for a printer that cost about $100).
Historical precedent creates weird results where higher-end expensive devices exclude a cheap, critical part you absolutely have to have, while low-end cheap devices include the very same part. It doesn't make any sense, but it's the way things have been done.
If this is the sort of thing that upsets a number of otherwise very loyal Apple customers, it was probably done by someone in the Accounting Department who got the idea that, not only does it save them $2, it forces a number of their customers to upgrade to more expensive computers than they would have bought if they decided otherwise and left the part in.
I'm listening to the comments and it seems clear that most of the uses people are claiming they can't do are slightly more "power user" style use than that of the "ordinary" user. And so, those people, Apple wants to push that, if they want to continue to use those features, to upgrade to a more expensive model of their computers. Since removing something that is of use by some higher-end users either forces them to get by with a less tolerable solution (USB) or upgrade to a more-expensive model of Apple's hardware. The first just pisses off someone who wants the extra functionality but feels (and rightfully so) that it's ridiculous for Apple to cut a feature to save $2; the second just grumbles about the "Apple Tax" that they have to pay to get the feature set they want.
So Apple is going to tick off some people who might decide, when they do upgrade, will switch to Windows-based computers which are generally always cheaper than Macs for the same functionality. Or the others who are now less enthusiastic of Apple but because of lock-in or other factors they can't switch.
Don't flame me if there is no lock-in with Apple, there are only two reasons for paying the higher price for Apple equipment (and if Apple wasn't more expensive there'd be no argument here): (1) people want the shiny, the chrome and the "fit and finish" of Apple; (2) Apple has some sort of "lock in", a proprietary advantage wi
The lessons of history teach us - if they teach us anything - that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.
Correct me if I'm wrong; but, can't you simply use a FW 800 to 400 connector adapter? FW 800 as I understand it is backwards compatible (at least the chipset on the macs is supposed to be that way). Granted you might not be able to run mixed (eg full 800 on some and 400 on others) but you'd at least be able to run your FW400 devices in legacy mode. Oh, the adapters are like $5.
all bleeding stops... eventually.
Does not Apple support target-mode with USB these days?
"Target Disk Mode" with USB is not possible with present computer hardware.
Unlike FireWire, USB is directional. That is to say, with USB, ports are either "Host" (A connector) or "Device" (B connector). You cannot connect a Host port to a Host port, or Device to Device. So you cannot simply wire up a cable with two A connectors (the rectangular one) and plug a computer into a computer. The hardware and protocol do not support it.
FireWire had no such issue; all bus nodes were peers. You could build a simple computer network with nothing but ordinary FireWire cables.
A standard for something called "USB-To-Go" (UTG) was created later, but it is almost never implemented. UTG lets a Host detect when it has been connected to another Host, and switch itself to act like a Device instead. It was created mainly for mobile devices (e.g., PDAs) which sometimes plug into computers, and sometimes plug into devices (flash drives, cameras, printers, etc.). UTG requires both special hardware and software support. It's a kludge.
So unless the market finds a reason to implement UTG in computers, Target Disk Mode will never be possible with USB.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
musicians often buy macs for their firewire... lots of pro audio interfaces are still firewire... musicians are going to be really pissed off... Im a musician, I use firewire, I wouldnt touch a mac if it was solid gold....hey mac boys, slap a $10 firewire card in your PC - DONE.
USB2 sucks once youve been using firewire... External HD's are a nightmare under USB2. try telling it to transfer 50GB of data...it will shit itself.... there are technical reasons for this of course, firewire is superior, but USB is cheaper to manufacture... type firewire vs USB into google and youll get the technical reasons... I cant believe it will take till USB3 to beat firewire1. the industry picked the wrong standard the cheapo bastards...
Not being a fanboi for Apple, but you cant be serious calling XP rock solid!
---
Your post was so hard to read I just didn't bother.
Maybe Apple didn't want to pay the Firewire Technology fees to itself? -Eric
-Eric
I bought the eSATA adapter for my MBP and tried to use it with an external hard drive, but the adapter was flaky and corrupted the external storage after 500GB of data was placed there. All in all unsatisfying. The price of the eSATA drive, the cable, the adapter, and a lot of lost data, was too high for me to try again. At first I thought the express eSATA card was very cool, but alas it is shelf-ware now. The firewire 800 port was my best hope of fast transport to devices. I guess the only solution now is gigabit ethernet attached NAS. The throughput of the ethernet and the ability of the NAS to store data at ethernet speeds will become the next question. The hardware fw800->drive solution appealed to me.
The MBP still has the FireWire 800 port. Apple just axed all FireWire 400 ports.
Of course that now means that the new MBP has fewer FireWire ports than most FireWire devices.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
a Firewire USB dongle, duh!
Mac: Hi, I'm a Mac.
PC: And I'm a PC.
Mac: I can't use some technologies because I have only one hardware manufacturer, which means they can control what you may use. And if you should shell out more for 'professional' features.
PC: I am manufactured by a myriad of companies. You can cherry-pick what you need and what you don't. No single company can control what you are able to buy.
Mac: I am also locked-in as the hardware monopolist is the software monopolist, as well.
PC: I used to have a similar problem, but I have been running Linux for a few years now.
Has anyone reported being hacked through the Firewire port? A possibility, not a reality, no?
USB is so crappy comparatively. USB *may* be good for transfers, but only as long as you only have one drive being accessed on the entire hub. The moment you attach a digital camera/iPod to the same hub, USB demosntrates it's utter crappiness.
Firewire is infinitely more stable than USB 2, and it appears to have always been like that in my experience. Three FW drives being simultaneously R/W'd have never shown any hiccups, for years now.
I recently made the mistake of putting one of my (3) external drives into a USB case; it drops out any time I sync my Canon PowerShot, iPod, iRiver or ANY other device that needs an actual datarate on the USB. This is the 2nd USB encolsure I've tried, I'm going back to all-FW.
(This happens on my Toshiba (Windoze) Laptop and also on my MacMini (OS X).)
Conclusion:
USB2 is still for slow devices, like cameras, mp3 players, printer.
USB2 sucks for high-data rate devices, like drives.
I agree, Target Disk mode is absolutely bad-ass.
When you need it, you are SO happy that it exists.
PS. did you know you can use another comp's Wireless antenna (& sometimes BlueTooth) via TD-mode? It shows up in your system profiler!
I think my favorite aspect of FireWire is the higher voltages provided over the connection. For example, pretty much any 2.5" drive with a firewire connector can be fully powered from any system without the need for a power cable or multiple USB connections. Few high-capacity USB drives can do this. So, if means I have to keep an eye out for outlets and pack extra cables - which is the last thing I want to do with "portable" harddrives. Not to mention the fact that you can daisy-chain FireWire devices (plug one into another) without the need for buying hubs. I find it amazing that people talk about the death of FireWire when there are so many useful technological advances to the format that are completely unavailable with USB2.
I remember when Firewire was supposed to be the next really big type of port, that all the new peripheral devices would use. At about the same time, USB was supposed to totally replace all the *other* ports on our PCs: serial, parallel, PS/2, you name it, USB was supposed to take over completely, and Firewire was supposed to take over for, umm, whatever USB didn't do. Nobody was quite sure what it was that USB wouldn't do and Firewire would, but wherever USB was inadequate, Firewire was supposed to be the thing.
Heh, heh, heh. That was, what, 1998?
Ten years on, USB has taken the place of exactly one thing: floppy disks. Umm, okay, floppy disks and ADB. This is a Mac-related article after all, so I should acknowledge that. But nobody outside the Mac world ever used ADB in the first place, and as for Mac users, they have to use whatever peripheral interface Apple tells them to use, because their other choice is to switch to PCs. If Apple says the only external ports on the new models will be SCSI, well, then all the new peripherals that support Mac will come with SCSI support, and that's just how it'll be.
As for Firewire, virtually nothing requires it (absolutely nothing that's even vaguely common, among Mac users or otherwise), and for that matter I personally have yet to actually see with my eyes a device that even *uses* Firewire. From my readings on the internet I believe a handful of manufacturers make devices that support both Firewire and USB, but apparently they're not particularly common, and nearly everyone who *does* get them just plugs them into USB ports, because those are conveniently located on the front of the case on most computers, and the 1394, if it even exists, is around back. Macs have all had Firewire ports since the original iMac, but, again, everybody just uses USB.
So after a decade, a veritable eternity in computer time, we're *still* waiting for Firewire to catch on in any significant way. Yeah, good luck with that. On a related note, back in the 80s, we were all promised a paperless society. Anyone remember that? It was going to be *the* thing. Well, we're still waiting. Where's my paperless office, huh? I want my paperless office and a flying car!
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
With about two hours preparation, the desktop team at my workplace was able to implement this and successfully hack a variety of Windows, Linux and Mac systems.
All you need is python:
http://www.storm.net.nz/projects/16
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
I am a little late on this post, so I hope some one else said this already, but the Macbook Pro has Firewire. The difference is in the name, the Macbook is what you buy your 18 year old when you send them to college, and the Pro is what you buy your self, as a working professional. Apple will not loose a single sale because of the lack of Firewire on a consumer level machine.
Not to mention the fact that the FIRST thing to break on a computer in my experience, on ANY computer, is the optical drive.
Sure.. I'm actually semi pro who derives income from photography (and had the tax statements to prove it). I just had a piece in a show in Tribeca NYC. I've been published many places..
A lot of pro photogs want out of the adobe/apple monopoly.