Try replying to the next person next time. Usually, it wouldn't be a big dael that you weren't paying attention, but when you start calling people names, try to take a second to watch which "Reply to This" link you're clicking, it isn't all that hard.
Wow- you're the first person I've heard from who likes the 5500's screen. Let me guess- you've not owned a newer PDA with a color screen before? By that, I mean something above 240x320, the older 160x160 color POS devices exempt.
Stop by in #zaurus on irc.freenode.net, plenty of people gripe about that screen... it is the same one throughout the 5000D, 5500, and 5600.
It is kind of funnily sad- Sharp makes the screen in the Zaurus models, including the crappy 5500 screen. But, they also make screens for other PDAs, including that in the Dell Axim X5, which is incidentally the best 240x320 color screen I have ever seen in a PDA- *very* bright and crisp.
The Axim's screen at the lowest brightness is just as bright as the SL-5500 at it's highest level.
I got the 5500 wanting a powerful handheld computer, but was disapointed compared to the capabilities I already had on the WinCE-based Jornada 720. I was able to code on it in just about as mant languages as I have access to on the C760 or 5500. On WinCE though, more languages supprtes coding GUIs than on Linux/Qtopia. No PyQt development on WinCE, of course, but Tcl/Tk, Perl/Tk, and of course, Python/Tkinter, as well as support for codingthe native WinCE GUI.
One thing to note is that there are many languages you can develop for WinCE on the device itself, but there is one big exception: the WinCE gcc port hasn't been maintained in a long time, and IIRC, doesn't support ARM.
I've done probably around 50% or more of my coding over the last year on one PDA or another, mostly on the J720, which has a decent keyboard, something on which you can touchtype.
These days though, I'm using a C760 along with a Pocketop keyboard. Just had to make the upgrade for the CPU speed...:)
Short answer: Nope, that wasn't the case in my tests. PocketPC does close apps if you actually close the app rather than using the smart minimize button. Not only did I start the app from a complete no-run state, I also ran each of the apps fresh after a reboot, making sure there wasn't any substantial DLLs loaded by one app and used by the next.
To further credit to PocketPC, I didn't do a full reboot on the Zaurus C760 for app timing, giving the Linux Zaurus a potential leg up, in the case that such library loading actually went on. I would've done the same on the Z, but it takes like 5 minutes for the bleeding thing to boot...
Long answer: (or so was the intention...) PocketPC does close the application *if* you tell it to. The 'x' button you're talking about- the so-called 'smart minimize button'- does indeed only minimize the app, usually. It's a really bad aspect of the PocketPC UI, and was just introduced in PocketPC 2002.
Before this, in PPC2k, as well as in PPC2k2, most OEMs shipped another utility for closong apps. On the iPAQ 3650, Compaq shipped a utility that, when you hit a hardware button, a menu pops up giving you options- close active app, close all apps, volume control, etc. PPC, without OEM additions, has no quick way of closing an app- you have to go into the freaking Memory control panel! Hmpf. sorry, excuse the venting.:)
The original Agenda came out. You could buy it for a while from the original Agenda Computing, and can still from Softfield the maker of this new MX-7. The Agenda may have been a piss-poor PDA that suffered many long delays, but it was released and it was for sale.
Hey, while we're at it, I personally can't wait until Linux-based PDAs have the funding or intelligence to hire good UI and application designers, good enough to provide a robust, consistent and feature-filled suite of built-in applications.
PalmOS and PocketPC models certainly don't have the best suite of built-in software for PIM and other stuff, but it sure is good enough to fulfill the needs of most PDA users. With the Zaurus, since there really aren't any 3rd party options for a PIM replacement or supplement (beyond theKompany), a lot of users I've talked to give an excuse like "It's not a PDA... it's a PMT! [hahaha]" rather than write, track down, or gripe about the lack of decent software. Sharp, and to a lesser extent TrollTech really does *owe* us Zaurus users something a little better. We were willing to hedge our bets on the Zaurus, on Linux+Qtopia, and after almost 2 years, Sharp hasn't done all that much to improve the software experience of the Zaurus since the release of the SL-5000D...
Linux certainly has the potential capability for just about anything- but just like desktop Linux doesn't have most of those new and fancy 3D games (of questionable worth, IMHO), PDA Linux doesn't have much in the way of... good PDA applications. Qtopia is definately lacking in the way of decent PIM apps- nothing you can get for the Zaurus is anywhere near the builtin stuff for the Psion or Newton or the 3rd party stuff on PocketPC or PalmOS. Maybe someday Linux will make a good PDA platform, but maybe someday Linux will be the platform of choice for gamers everywhere...
Some of the problems include badly thought out user interaction, wasteful use of the limited screen real estate (probably a result of being based on an adaptation of a desktop toolkit), and pretty excessive resource consumption by Qt/Embedded.
Indeed. This is true from both the user perspective as well as the developers- Qt/Embedded wasn't designed for use on PDAs, and it shows. I am talking about the API, not the way things look and feel, although that is certainly an issue as well. Qt/E was designed for a system with a mouse like its desktop counterpart, rather than for a stylus based system. This wouldn't be a big deal if TrollTech made the neccesary adaptations and changes to make for a system that worked well on both kinds of systems (there are Qt/E systems with mice and not touchscreens).
For instance, Qtopia has a simple character recognition system in which you write in a little box, ala Graffiti 1 or the Character/Block Recognizer in PocketPC. Developers have wanted to create a new input method that allows one to write letters anywhere on the screen, perhaps using the same engine, but not making you write in a little box. But nope, it appears to be next to impossible within the confines of Qtopia and Qt/Embedded due to the way the event loop works. This is just one example, but these things add up, painting a picture of an embedded GUI toolkit that really doesn't make much sense on a PDA.
And Qtopia/Linux does use an excessive amount of resources. For one, it's quite slow.
I have a Zaurus SL-C760. I just did some timing tests for launching applications, here are my numbers:
And for comparison, I launched analogous apps on an iPAQ 3650. Mind you, the iPAQ has half of the RAM and about half of the CPU power as the C760.
Calendar, Word, PocketIE, Clock, Calculator: all > 1 sec
One way to get around the slowness of app launching on the Zaurus is a feature called "fast load." Basically, the system loads the application into memory and keeps it resident, even when you quit it. When you tap the app it appears to open, and the icon shows up in the taskbar. If an app has "fast loading" turned on, launching time is pretty similar to the PocketPC. Of course, for each app you have "fast loading" turned on, it uses up a MB or more, depending on the app. Turning on fast loading for Calendar uses 1.2 MB of RAM.
As far as memory requirements, the Linux+Qtopia combo uses up a pretty fair amount. On a fresh boot of my C760, with no applications in "Fast load" mode, 16 MB of RAM is used up. No application loaded. On a fresh boot on the iPAQ, WinCE is using up 3 MB.
As far as vertical apps, you may not be able to run GTK+ or Tk apps within the world of Qtopia, you can run X11 and these apps if you want. It negates any advantage percieved for Qtopia, but it's still an option. Then again, you can also run Tcl/Tk, Perl/Tk, X11 and other apps on WinCE without having to go outside the WinCE environment, so it depends on what your needs are.
The "Familiar" Linux distro and the Yopy PDA both use X11 and are thusly not limited to only one GUI toolkit. I myself would rather have one main GUI toolkit, but having options is always good. For me, consistency is more important, but even on WinCE/PocketPC- which is seen as a single toolkit environment can be host to other toolkits as long as someone does the port.
Except, of course, it'd be kind of the polar opposite of Apple's campaign. Ellen Feiss wouldn't be talking about switching from the beeping computer that didn't work right to one that did... Instead, she'd be like
"Well, so yeah, my dad bought this little computer... It think they call it like a pee dee aay. He says it means it is cool. So, I was like writing a paper for class in TextMaker, and I was going to save it to RTF and email it to my teacher and suddenly I was like- so Mr PDA, what is your deal? Why haven't you crashed? IS THAT ALL YOU GOT IN YOU? This sucks! Like, I totally like my computer to give me a little fight.
So I realized then my life was incomplete. I tell my dad, HEY BUTTWAD, you gotta get me a Linux PDA! And then it was like WOW THIS IS SO COOL! And I took my new toy to school and I was like Hey GUYS!! I RULE! I am so much l33t, much more than j00!!!1 So I was like HEY! Look, I can SSH. And my girlfriend was like ''but what about useful apps?? My WinCE can SSH 2, so who cares ellen da felon?'' And i was liek fCUK j00! It runs Linux ! You know, the ULTIMATE KILLER APP!"
And then, it pans out from Ellen's head, and the whole building burns down. I bet it'd be pretty cool.
And- if you really want to run Linux, you'll be able to do that on the Dell Axim *very* soon. It works partially already, but it's only a matter of not-that-much time before the whole chebang works.
The Axim is a pretty nice little device. Probably the best color 240x320 screen I've seen on a PDA and SD/CF expansion. Hell, if you're not feeling zealous, you can still do most of that weekend Unix User Group show off stuff on WindowsCE/PocketPC as well as on Linux.:)
And sold it a month later for $170. The SL-5500 is pretty much crap compared to almost any other PDA. I'd rather have a mono Newton or Psion screen than the pitiful excuse for a color screen that is found on the SL-5500. Let's pray to any and all gods that the screen on this MX-7 isn't as bad...
I now have a Zaurus C760- it's a great platform for running Squeak Smalltalk and Dynapad, especially with its 640x480 screen, but as a PDA, the entire Zaurus line is exteremely lacking.
Anyone know how fast this particular CPU is compared to a 206 MHz StrongARM? If it's any slower than the 206 MHz StrongARM SA-1100 (or the 400 MHz PXA250 XScale, which is about the same speed), it'll suck to run Qtopia and its apps on it. Qtopia is *slow*, especially on PDAs with the 400 MHz PXA250 XScale (SL-5600, SL-C700) or 206 MHz StrongARM (SL-5000D, SL-5500), but it's still kind of sad on the fast 400 MHz XScale PXA255 CPUs in the SL-C750 and SL-C760. You'd think you were using OS X 10.1 on a 400 MHz G3 sometimes...
Hey, read the article- CF (as well as bluetooth and a camera) will be an option. Yeah, more money spent, but at least there is the potential.
Indeed, openness in a language or its community doesn't prevent things like this from happening. However, it also does not mean that Lisp's openness didn't encourage openness in other areas as well. It simply proves that money is a strong motivator for humans in our culture, which is something proved over and over again. An open system like Lisp doesn't pay the bills inherently, and these people likely saw a chance to share with the world something they loved dearly.
Ah- so there is something new! Thanks for sharing. I agree, 30-60 days isn't usually enough for me either... It might be if I were getting paid to sit down with the product and evaluate it, but on my own time I need a bit more than that...
So when are we going to get the Smalltalk equivalent of JBoss, or JoNaS? The number of "extensions" that Java has is huge.
I've never worked with JBoss or JOnAS specifically, but Squeak has had a few application servers for a while. Seaside is the higher-level app server I've been using, but there are a couple others that implement similar functionality at different levels. Squeak has an very large library of extensions, not as large as Java, but very substantial. Swazoo is another app server for Smalltalk that comes to mind.
Outside of what you can do in Squeak, there are a handful of other application servers for Squeak, including VisualWave for VisualWorks, IBM's WebSphere and GemStone/S. These are hard-core enterprise app servers. Depending on your needs, there's an option.
And when is the graphics going to improve in Squeak? Right now it looks like a cartoon, instead of a serious tool.
Squeak has looked like more than a cartoon for a long time. This is what my Squeak desktop looks like now, save for a for desktop extensions not in the shot. No, it doesn't look like Windows or OS X, but it's far from looking like a cartoon. You can use any IceWM theme with Squeak, and in that screenshot, I choose a BlueCurve look-a-like theme. A project called Zurgle is working towards some UI beautification that goes beyond IceWM/color themes. You can find some screenshots here showing the WinXP Luna and Borg themes.
The graphic system in Squeak itself is quite powerful, regardless if you are displaying actual cartoons or a more boring business-like desktop.
When is Smalltalk going to have their CSPAN equivalent?
CSPAN? I am guessing you mean CPAN, but if you mean something related to television news, let me know.
Squeak has had something called SqueakMap for the last few point releases. It has a similar goal as CPAN, although isn't a clone. It does some things differently. However, when I download a fresh copy of Squeak 3.6, I can open it up, click the menu option for opening the Package Loader, and simply select an application or library and install it. Usually less than a minute later, whatever I downloaded it installed and ready to use. It's a nice system.
When is code doing to be compatiable across VMs?
It already is, to an extent. A lot of the different Smalltalks use different GUI frameworks, and I don't expect any compatability layers to show up anytime soon. But then again, you wouldn't expect code written for SWT to work for Swing and AWT, would you?
When is the documentation going to improve?
This is an ongoing process. This is an area which really needs work, especially for Squeak. The commercial Smalltalks have good documentation already, which makes sense. Luckily, folks have taken this up lately and are working on better tutorials for beginners and trying to improve other documentation.
It may sound crazy to an armchair hater, but it's not the most glamorous thing, writing documentation. People come into the Squeak community, figure things out and want to start writing code. You know, creating new things or improving existing ones. It's not the easiest thing to find folks who want to write docs. It hurts the community in the end, yes, but that doesn't make it any more fun. If Squeak had the budget of Java, a company like Sun throwing literally millions and millions of dolars at it, I imagine it would have documentation of similar quality and quantity. But alas, that's not the case.
The Smalltalk philosophy and community is an interesting beast. Smalltalk has been about being open since before the copyleft, before the FSF or GNU- right about the time RMS was first being hired at the MIT AI lab.
Unlike most of the rest of the software world, Smalltalk is open to its core. I think of it as sort of psycholinguists for programming languages. Due to way Smalltalk works, the community grew into a culture of openness that C/C++ programmers don't know, even with licenses like the GPL.
You see, in a Smalltalk environment, the entire system is available to you, at your fingertips. It's all there, and it's all in Smalltalk. If I want to change the way the plus (+) operator works, I can. Since everything is an object in Smalltalk, and every operation a method, it's just a matter of having a look at the + method on the class Number. In Smalltalk, we notate that as Number>>#+. Which incidentally is also legitamate code- it returns a CompiledMethod object, which contains the compiled bytecode for that method. Or, if I wanted to change the way the Smalltalk system managed windows, I could just pop into the Window class. Nothing is hidden, nothing is kept from you, the developer/user- even on "proprietary" and commercial Smalltalks like VisualAge for Smalltalk and VisualWorks. The ability to change the way anything works, getting the source code for everything is something you don't get with most industrial-strength commercial systems. Definately cool, IMHO.
One exception is the virtual machine, which is often written in C and makes up a pretty small percentage of the Smalltalk system. Java tends to have a lot of what we think of as the "java system" in the VM or a VM extension, but most Smalltalk VMs are small.
Squeak takes this to the next level- Squeak's VM is written in Smalltalk, and then translated to C, and them compiled by gcc, etc. You can make modifications to the way you want your virtual machine to work, and the Squeak system manages the translation to C and compiling it to something your computer can understand.
Non-commercial use = an evaluation that never expires. You can use it for personal projects and the like, but you can't make any money off of it. You can't use it to write a web app that generates profit. However, you can download it, play around, write some code, and file out the code to share with others.
While I'm very happy to see Slashdot giving my favorite language a little publicity, I can't see what is new about this.
I thought perhaps this was something new from IBM- a new package or a new license for a non-commercial version of VAST. Perhaps that is there long term intent, but I just downloaded and installed it, and lo and behold the start-up splash screen informs me that this is an evaluation version. IBM has had evaluation versions available for download from their site (or a CD from IBM, free) for a long time. Looks like the same license and the same stuff.
That said, I hope it doesn't discourage anyone frmo trying it out- or possible trying out a free Smalltalk like Squeak.:)
Yup, Smalltalk is still used. Obviously, it's not used as widely as C++ or Java, but there are still a number of folks using it. From industrial control (embedded smalltalk!) to huge "mission-critical, enterprise-wide" applications; from schmucks like me who use it as their desktop and GUI system to college classes using it to teach the fundamentals of OOP; from corporate prototyping to acedemic research.
It's not the most visible language, but it also doesn't have the marketing cashflow behind it like Java, or the legacy mindshare of C++. But then again, there are a lot of systems in the background doing work that we never hear about- OS/2 running ATMs, Lisp running banks, etc etc.
As others have mentioned, check out Squeak Smalltalk. Squeak doesn't have the same goals as a product like VAST or VisualWorks, but it is a free Smalltalk with a very active user community, and is open source- it's Free, of course.:) It's been available since 1996, and is always moving forward. Check it out!
I've been using Squeak for a number of projects and general areas for 4-5 years now. For me, Squeak is many things- it's my scripting language, my prototyping language, my implementation language (occasionally with a C library when I need the speed), my desktop environment for both my desktop and my PDA. VAST would have a hard time filling all of these needs.
I've used VAST before, and don't get me wrong, it's a really nice product- a rock solid Smalltalk that does a good job fitting in with apps written in other languages the OS supports. I used VAST interning a Progressive Insurance, where it's used for a couple really neat in-house apps. VAST is a really mature development system for web apps, prototyping and final implementation of desktop apps. I've used it in conjunction with the GemStone/S Object Database, which was a lot of fun.
For groups, VAST or VWNC along with ENVY/Developer simply can't be beat- by Squeak or any other development environment/language. It's the slickest way for a group, big to small, to develop an application with relative efficiency. Like CVS, but snazzier.:)
But for me, it's way too big. I imagine the license is more restrictive as well. It also supports fewer platforms than does Squeak, or even VisualWorks (which also has a non-commercial version for download).
We are in northern Minnesota. It would seem a bit funny to me if we had better service up here than in the LA area.
My friend was saying that some new service provider is going to start carrying/providing for the Hiptop, but that coverage is pretty limited at this point. Can't remember the name of the outfit, though.
My friend/roomate has a SideKick with T-mobile service. He has only had the unit for like 3 weeks, but he's not had these problems. Not sure if you geographical region is a factor in this. His service craps out occasionally for a minute, but it comes back right away.
Can the SK be used with any other service provider?
While the DOS batch file couldn't do the socket stuff, everything else would be done by the DOS batch file. Just like Unix shell script, it can do more than start other applcations. Using another utility to open a socket and use stdin as a link to the DOS batch webserver isn't cheating or anything. This utility wouldn't do any of the web stuff- no processing of the request, mapping it with the desired resource, and returning the data.
Yes, this would all be done via a command.com interpreter. You could likely take the same approach as is used with the Unix shell versions.
RIM devices are pretty much exclusively used by bidness folks for email. Since I do a good job of living far away from the corporate world, I've not known all that many people who use RIM devices, but I've known a couple, and they were all either exec/manegerial type or sys admins who had a lot of script set up to alert them of all sorts of things via email. These days, a lot of the people I've known who had a Blackberry a few years ago now have a Hiptop- the sae functionality and a little more.
I can't help but laugh when someone makes a post like this- and folks moderate it as Flamebait. I mean, the content of the post is obviously true, and moderating it as flamebait only confirms this. Slashduh- gotta love it!
Slashdot Mirror
Try replying to the next person next time. Usually, it wouldn't be a big dael that you weren't paying attention, but when you start calling people names, try to take a second to watch which "Reply to This" link you're clicking, it isn't all that hard.
Wow- you're the first person I've heard from who likes the 5500's screen. Let me guess- you've not owned a newer PDA with a color screen before? By that, I mean something above 240x320, the older 160x160 color POS devices exempt.
:)
Stop by in #zaurus on irc.freenode.net, plenty of people gripe about that screen... it is the same one throughout the 5000D, 5500, and 5600.
It is kind of funnily sad- Sharp makes the screen in the Zaurus models, including the crappy 5500 screen. But, they also make screens for other PDAs, including that in the Dell Axim X5, which is incidentally the best 240x320 color screen I have ever seen in a PDA- *very* bright and crisp.
The Axim's screen at the lowest brightness is just as bright as the SL-5500 at it's highest level.
I got the 5500 wanting a powerful handheld computer, but was disapointed compared to the capabilities I already had on the WinCE-based Jornada 720. I was able to code on it in just about as mant languages as I have access to on the C760 or 5500. On WinCE though, more languages supprtes coding GUIs than on Linux/Qtopia. No PyQt development on WinCE, of course, but Tcl/Tk, Perl/Tk, and of course, Python/Tkinter, as well as support for codingthe native WinCE GUI.
One thing to note is that there are many languages you can develop for WinCE on the device itself, but there is one big exception: the WinCE gcc port hasn't been maintained in a long time, and IIRC, doesn't support ARM.
I've done probably around 50% or more of my coding over the last year on one PDA or another, mostly on the J720, which has a decent keyboard, something on which you can touchtype.
These days though, I'm using a C760 along with a Pocketop keyboard. Just had to make the upgrade for the CPU speed...
Short answer:
:)
Nope, that wasn't the case in my tests. PocketPC does close apps if you actually close the app rather than using the smart minimize button. Not only did I start the app from a complete no-run state, I also ran each of the apps fresh after a reboot, making sure there wasn't any substantial DLLs loaded by one app and used by the next.
To further credit to PocketPC, I didn't do a full reboot on the Zaurus C760 for app timing, giving the Linux Zaurus a potential leg up, in the case that such library loading actually went on. I would've done the same on the Z, but it takes like 5 minutes for the bleeding thing to boot...
Long answer: (or so was the intention...)
PocketPC does close the application *if* you tell it to. The 'x' button you're talking about- the so-called 'smart minimize button'- does indeed only minimize the app, usually. It's a really bad aspect of the PocketPC UI, and was just introduced in PocketPC 2002.
Before this, in PPC2k, as well as in PPC2k2, most OEMs shipped another utility for closong apps. On the iPAQ 3650, Compaq shipped a utility that, when you hit a hardware button, a menu pops up giving you options- close active app, close all apps, volume control, etc. PPC, without OEM additions, has no quick way of closing an app- you have to go into the freaking Memory control panel! Hmpf. sorry, excuse the venting.
The original Agenda came out. You could buy it for a while from the original Agenda Computing, and can still from Softfield the maker of this new MX-7. The Agenda may have been a piss-poor PDA that suffered many long delays, but it was released and it was for sale.
Hey, while we're at it, I personally can't wait until Linux-based PDAs have the funding or intelligence to hire good UI and application designers, good enough to provide a robust, consistent and feature-filled suite of built-in applications.
PalmOS and PocketPC models certainly don't have the best suite of built-in software for PIM and other stuff, but it sure is good enough to fulfill the needs of most PDA users. With the Zaurus, since there really aren't any 3rd party options for a PIM replacement or supplement (beyond theKompany), a lot of users I've talked to give an excuse like "It's not a PDA... it's a PMT! [hahaha]" rather than write, track down, or gripe about the lack of decent software. Sharp, and to a lesser extent TrollTech really does *owe* us Zaurus users something a little better. We were willing to hedge our bets on the Zaurus, on Linux+Qtopia, and after almost 2 years, Sharp hasn't done all that much to improve the software experience of the Zaurus since the release of the SL-5000D...
Linux certainly has the potential capability for just about anything- but just like desktop Linux doesn't have most of those new and fancy 3D games (of questionable worth, IMHO), PDA Linux doesn't have much in the way of ... good PDA applications. Qtopia is definately lacking in the way of decent PIM apps- nothing you can get for the Zaurus is anywhere near the builtin stuff for the Psion or Newton or the 3rd party stuff on PocketPC or PalmOS. Maybe someday Linux will make a good PDA platform, but maybe someday Linux will be the platform of choice for gamers everywhere...
...but Nethack does run on WindowsCE and PocketPC.
Some of the problems include badly thought out user interaction, wasteful use of the limited screen real estate (probably a result of being based on an adaptation of a desktop toolkit), and pretty excessive resource consumption by Qt/Embedded.
Indeed. This is true from both the user perspective as well as the developers- Qt/Embedded wasn't designed for use on PDAs, and it shows. I am talking about the API, not the way things look and feel, although that is certainly an issue as well. Qt/E was designed for a system with a mouse like its desktop counterpart, rather than for a stylus based system. This wouldn't be a big deal if TrollTech made the neccesary adaptations and changes to make for a system that worked well on both kinds of systems (there are Qt/E systems with mice and not touchscreens).
For instance, Qtopia has a simple character recognition system in which you write in a little box, ala Graffiti 1 or the Character/Block Recognizer in PocketPC. Developers have wanted to create a new input method that allows one to write letters anywhere on the screen, perhaps using the same engine, but not making you write in a little box. But nope, it appears to be next to impossible within the confines of Qtopia and Qt/Embedded due to the way the event loop works. This is just one example, but these things add up, painting a picture of an embedded GUI toolkit that really doesn't make much sense on a PDA.
And Qtopia/Linux does use an excessive amount of resources. For one, it's quite slow.
I have a Zaurus SL-C760. I just did some timing tests for launching applications, here are my numbers:
Calendar: 6 sec
Opera 6: 6 sec
Netfront 3: 4 sec
Hancom Word: 3 sec
Simple Calculator: 3 sec
And for comparison, I launched analogous apps on an iPAQ 3650. Mind you, the iPAQ has half of the RAM and about half of the CPU power as the C760.
Calendar, Word, PocketIE, Clock, Calculator: all > 1 sec
One way to get around the slowness of app launching on the Zaurus is a feature called "fast load." Basically, the system loads the application into memory and keeps it resident, even when you quit it. When you tap the app it appears to open, and the icon shows up in the taskbar. If an app has "fast loading" turned on, launching time is pretty similar to the PocketPC. Of course, for each app you have "fast loading" turned on, it uses up a MB or more, depending on the app. Turning on fast loading for Calendar uses 1.2 MB of RAM.
As far as memory requirements, the Linux+Qtopia combo uses up a pretty fair amount. On a fresh boot of my C760, with no applications in "Fast load" mode, 16 MB of RAM is used up. No application loaded. On a fresh boot on the iPAQ, WinCE is using up 3 MB.
As far as vertical apps, you may not be able to run GTK+ or Tk apps within the world of Qtopia, you can run X11 and these apps if you want. It negates any advantage percieved for Qtopia, but it's still an option. Then again, you can also run Tcl/Tk, Perl/Tk, X11 and other apps on WinCE without having to go outside the WinCE environment, so it depends on what your needs are.
The "Familiar" Linux distro and the Yopy PDA both use X11 and are thusly not limited to only one GUI toolkit. I myself would rather have one main GUI toolkit, but having options is always good. For me, consistency is more important, but even on WinCE/PocketPC- which is seen as a single toolkit environment can be host to other toolkits as long as someone does the port.
Heh! I like this idea!
Except, of course, it'd be kind of the polar opposite of Apple's campaign. Ellen Feiss wouldn't be talking about switching from the beeping computer that didn't work right to one that did... Instead, she'd be like
"Well, so yeah, my dad bought this little computer... It think they call it like a pee dee aay. He says it means it is cool. So, I was like writing a paper for class in TextMaker, and I was going to save it to RTF and email it to my teacher and suddenly I was like- so Mr PDA, what is your deal? Why haven't you crashed? IS THAT ALL YOU GOT IN YOU? This sucks! Like, I totally like my computer to give me a little fight.
So I realized then my life was incomplete. I tell my dad, HEY BUTTWAD, you gotta get me a Linux PDA! And then it was like WOW THIS IS SO COOL! And I took my new toy to school and I was like Hey GUYS!! I RULE! I am so much l33t, much more than j00!!!1 So I was like HEY! Look, I can SSH. And my girlfriend was like ''but what about useful apps?? My WinCE can SSH 2, so who cares ellen da felon?'' And i was liek fCUK j00! It runs Linux ! You know, the ULTIMATE KILLER APP!"
And then, it pans out from Ellen's head, and the whole building burns down. I bet it'd be pretty cool.
And- if you really want to run Linux, you'll be able to do that on the Dell Axim *very* soon. It works partially already, but it's only a matter of not-that-much time before the whole chebang works.
:)
The Axim is a pretty nice little device. Probably the best color 240x320 screen I've seen on a PDA and SD/CF expansion. Hell, if you're not feeling zealous, you can still do most of that weekend Unix User Group show off stuff on WindowsCE/PocketPC as well as on Linux.
Heck, I got my SL-5500 for $180.
And sold it a month later for $170. The SL-5500 is pretty much crap compared to almost any other PDA. I'd rather have a mono Newton or Psion screen than the pitiful excuse for a color screen that is found on the SL-5500. Let's pray to any and all gods that the screen on this MX-7 isn't as bad...
I now have a Zaurus C760- it's a great platform for running Squeak Smalltalk and Dynapad, especially with its 640x480 screen, but as a PDA, the entire Zaurus line is exteremely lacking.
Anyone know how fast this particular CPU is compared to a 206 MHz StrongARM? If it's any slower than the 206 MHz StrongARM SA-1100 (or the 400 MHz PXA250 XScale, which is about the same speed), it'll suck to run Qtopia and its apps on it. Qtopia is *slow*, especially on PDAs with the 400 MHz PXA250 XScale (SL-5600, SL-C700) or 206 MHz StrongARM (SL-5000D, SL-5500), but it's still kind of sad on the fast 400 MHz XScale PXA255 CPUs in the SL-C750 and SL-C760. You'd think you were using OS X 10.1 on a 400 MHz G3 sometimes...
Hey, read the article- CF (as well as bluetooth and a camera) will be an option. Yeah, more money spent, but at least there is the potential.
Indeed, openness in a language or its community doesn't prevent things like this from happening. However, it also does not mean that Lisp's openness didn't encourage openness in other areas as well. It simply proves that money is a strong motivator for humans in our culture, which is something proved over and over again. An open system like Lisp doesn't pay the bills inherently, and these people likely saw a chance to share with the world something they loved dearly.
Ah- so there is something new! Thanks for sharing. I agree, 30-60 days isn't usually enough for me either... It might be if I were getting paid to sit down with the product and evaluate it, but on my own time I need a bit more than that...
So when are we going to get the Smalltalk equivalent of JBoss, or JoNaS? The number of "extensions" that Java has is huge.
I've never worked with JBoss or JOnAS specifically, but Squeak has had a few application servers for a while. Seaside is the higher-level app server I've been using, but there are a couple others that implement similar functionality at different levels. Squeak has an very large library of extensions, not as large as Java, but very substantial. Swazoo is another app server for Smalltalk that comes to mind.
Outside of what you can do in Squeak, there are a handful of other application servers for Squeak, including VisualWave for VisualWorks, IBM's WebSphere and GemStone/S. These are hard-core enterprise app servers. Depending on your needs, there's an option.
And when is the graphics going to improve in Squeak? Right now it looks like a cartoon, instead of a serious tool.
Squeak has looked like more than a cartoon for a long time. This is what my Squeak desktop looks like now, save for a for desktop extensions not in the shot. No, it doesn't look like Windows or OS X, but it's far from looking like a cartoon. You can use any IceWM theme with Squeak, and in that screenshot, I choose a BlueCurve look-a-like theme. A project called Zurgle is working towards some UI beautification that goes beyond IceWM/color themes. You can find some screenshots here showing the WinXP Luna and Borg themes.
The graphic system in Squeak itself is quite powerful, regardless if you are displaying actual cartoons or a more boring business-like desktop.
When is Smalltalk going to have their CSPAN equivalent?
CSPAN? I am guessing you mean CPAN, but if you mean something related to television news, let me know.
Squeak has had something called SqueakMap for the last few point releases. It has a similar goal as CPAN, although isn't a clone. It does some things differently. However, when I download a fresh copy of Squeak 3.6, I can open it up, click the menu option for opening the Package Loader, and simply select an application or library and install it. Usually less than a minute later, whatever I downloaded it installed and ready to use. It's a nice system.
When is code doing to be compatiable across VMs?
It already is, to an extent. A lot of the different Smalltalks use different GUI frameworks, and I don't expect any compatability layers to show up anytime soon. But then again, you wouldn't expect code written for SWT to work for Swing and AWT, would you?
When is the documentation going to improve?
This is an ongoing process. This is an area which really needs work, especially for Squeak. The commercial Smalltalks have good documentation already, which makes sense. Luckily, folks have taken this up lately and are working on better tutorials for beginners and trying to improve other documentation.
It may sound crazy to an armchair hater, but it's not the most glamorous thing, writing documentation. People come into the Squeak community, figure things out and want to start writing code. You know, creating new things or improving existing ones. It's not the easiest thing to find folks who want to write docs. It hurts the community in the end, yes, but that doesn't make it any more fun. If Squeak had the budget of Java, a company like Sun throwing literally millions and millions of dolars at it, I imagine it would have documentation of similar quality and quantity. But alas, that's not the case.
The Smalltalk philosophy and community is an interesting beast. Smalltalk has been about being open since before the copyleft, before the FSF or GNU- right about the time RMS was first being hired at the MIT AI lab.
Unlike most of the rest of the software world, Smalltalk is open to its core. I think of it as sort of psycholinguists for programming languages. Due to way Smalltalk works, the community grew into a culture of openness that C/C++ programmers don't know, even with licenses like the GPL.
You see, in a Smalltalk environment, the entire system is available to you, at your fingertips. It's all there, and it's all in Smalltalk. If I want to change the way the plus (+) operator works, I can. Since everything is an object in Smalltalk, and every operation a method, it's just a matter of having a look at the + method on the class Number. In Smalltalk, we notate that as Number>>#+. Which incidentally is also legitamate code- it returns a CompiledMethod object, which contains the compiled bytecode for that method. Or, if I wanted to change the way the Smalltalk system managed windows, I could just pop into the Window class. Nothing is hidden, nothing is kept from you, the developer/user- even on "proprietary" and commercial Smalltalks like VisualAge for Smalltalk and VisualWorks. The ability to change the way anything works, getting the source code for everything is something you don't get with most industrial-strength commercial systems. Definately cool, IMHO.
One exception is the virtual machine, which is often written in C and makes up a pretty small percentage of the Smalltalk system. Java tends to have a lot of what we think of as the "java system" in the VM or a VM extension, but most Smalltalk VMs are small.
Squeak takes this to the next level- Squeak's VM is written in Smalltalk, and then translated to C, and them compiled by gcc, etc. You can make modifications to the way you want your virtual machine to work, and the Squeak system manages the translation to C and compiling it to something your computer can understand.
Non-commercial use = an evaluation that never expires. You can use it for personal projects and the like, but you can't make any money off of it. You can't use it to write a web app that generates profit. However, you can download it, play around, write some code, and file out the code to share with others.
While I'm very happy to see Slashdot giving my favorite language a little publicity, I can't see what is new about this.
:)
I thought perhaps this was something new from IBM- a new package or a new license for a non-commercial version of VAST. Perhaps that is there long term intent, but I just downloaded and installed it, and lo and behold the start-up splash screen informs me that this is an evaluation version. IBM has had evaluation versions available for download from their site (or a CD from IBM, free) for a long time. Looks like the same license and the same stuff.
That said, I hope it doesn't discourage anyone frmo trying it out- or possible trying out a free Smalltalk like Squeak.
Yup, Smalltalk is still used. Obviously, it's not used as widely as C++ or Java, but there are still a number of folks using it. From industrial control (embedded smalltalk!) to huge "mission-critical, enterprise-wide" applications; from schmucks like me who use it as their desktop and GUI system to college classes using it to teach the fundamentals of OOP; from corporate prototyping to acedemic research.
It's not the most visible language, but it also doesn't have the marketing cashflow behind it like Java, or the legacy mindshare of C++. But then again, there are a lot of systems in the background doing work that we never hear about- OS/2 running ATMs, Lisp running banks, etc etc.
As others have mentioned, check out Squeak Smalltalk. Squeak doesn't have the same goals as a product like VAST or VisualWorks, but it is a free Smalltalk with a very active user community, and is open source- it's Free, of course. :) It's been available since 1996, and is always moving forward. Check it out!
I've been using Squeak for a number of projects and general areas for 4-5 years now. For me, Squeak is many things- it's my scripting language, my prototyping language, my implementation language (occasionally with a C library when I need the speed), my desktop environment for both my desktop and my PDA. VAST would have a hard time filling all of these needs.
:)
I've used VAST before, and don't get me wrong, it's a really nice product- a rock solid Smalltalk that does a good job fitting in with apps written in other languages the OS supports. I used VAST interning a Progressive Insurance, where it's used for a couple really neat in-house apps. VAST is a really mature development system for web apps, prototyping and final implementation of desktop apps. I've used it in conjunction with the GemStone/S Object Database, which was a lot of fun.
For groups, VAST or VWNC along with ENVY/Developer simply can't be beat- by Squeak or any other development environment/language. It's the slickest way for a group, big to small, to develop an application with relative efficiency. Like CVS, but snazzier.
But for me, it's way too big. I imagine the license is more restrictive as well. It also supports fewer platforms than does Squeak, or even VisualWorks (which also has a non-commercial version for download).
We are in northern Minnesota. It would seem a bit funny to me if we had better service up here than in the LA area.
My friend was saying that some new service provider is going to start carrying/providing for the Hiptop, but that coverage is pretty limited at this point. Can't remember the name of the outfit, though.
Eww, that would blow, ye, mightily.
My friend/roomate has a SideKick with T-mobile service. He has only had the unit for like 3 weeks, but he's not had these problems. Not sure if you geographical region is a factor in this. His service craps out occasionally for a minute, but it comes back right away.
Can the SK be used with any other service provider?
While the DOS batch file couldn't do the socket stuff, everything else would be done by the DOS batch file. Just like Unix shell script, it can do more than start other applcations. Using another utility to open a socket and use stdin as a link to the DOS batch webserver isn't cheating or anything. This utility wouldn't do any of the web stuff- no processing of the request, mapping it with the desired resource, and returning the data.
Yes, this would all be done via a command.com interpreter. You could likely take the same approach as is used with the Unix shell versions.
RIM devices are pretty much exclusively used by bidness folks for email. Since I do a good job of living far away from the corporate world, I've not known all that many people who use RIM devices, but I've known a couple, and they were all either exec/manegerial type or sys admins who had a lot of script set up to alert them of all sorts of things via email. These days, a lot of the people I've known who had a Blackberry a few years ago now have a Hiptop- the sae functionality and a little more.
I can't help but laugh when someone makes a post like this- and folks moderate it as Flamebait. I mean, the content of the post is obviously true, and moderating it as flamebait only confirms this. Slashduh- gotta love it!