You don't think black markets have governments? Just try to walk away without paying for something, or setting up an operation undercutting the biggest seller.
- I have participated in black markets on either side of the trade, there are no governments, but there are contracts. Certainly there can be plenty of violence in some cases, but that doesn't make anybody on a black market into government.
There is a very robust and effective governance of the OSS community.
- nobody governs my OSS projects, just nobody except for me, and people use my stuff and I use stuff of other people.
Again, what you believe is 'government' is probably management of any particular single project within the project, but that's not government, that doesn't limit my freedoms in any way.
As to reality, and your opinion, that's your prerogative, it doesn't have anything to do with me as I don't care what it is.
But if somebody does it, they should really avoid making a similar mistake as this:
--
"I'm sorry, Fry, but astronomers renamed Uranus in 2620 to end that stupid joke once and for all." "Oh. What's it called now?" "Urectum. Here, let me locate it for you."
---
Also don't let Mark Shuttleworth name it for you, or it'll be known as:
Nonsense, markets exist without any governments at all. Somalia is actually a good example of a recent market economy (never mind that they are a former British colony, former Communist state that decided to get from under this dictatorial system 20 years ago and had a bloody civil war that decimated the country).
People producing stuff and exchanging it is market and it happens whether there is any government trying to steal from you or not. The difference is that with the governments trying to steal from you the market is not free.
It's fine, if we are wrong and we, as a whole market, don't recognise this to be a problem and it somehow does what you claim (it's absurd, but whatever), then we don't survive as a species, but there is nothing special about not surviving as a species. OTOH we don't have a better mechanism than the market to make the best decisions that we can, the mechanism just doesn't exist. The despotic government actions never lead to any good outcomes, that much we are sure of, they do lead to poverty, misery and death, again something we are certain about.
I rather not have a human civilisation at all than be subjected to the collective despotism.
I don't know what 'we the people' thing is there, but I don't believe that those, who actually really end up paying the taxes are willing to take on yet another burden.
How about all the subsidies stop to everybody, from any company (like GM or banks) to every single individual, whatever it is, which means, how about we let the market decide what should be done. You know, voluntary transactions among the participants in the market actually making decisions as a whole, rather than trying to force some people into a paradigm that they are completely uninterested in because it is against their self interests?
You want to buy more expensive, but 'cleaner' energy? Allow competition in the market for such a thing, and if it gets traction - you win.
I am not going to be on your side, you see, not voluntarily, but maybe the market as a whole, will be. It's our right to live our lives as free individuals, not as slaves in a collective system.
It can be argued that intelligence is a poor survival trait.
- but it doesn't really matter to us, does it, we aren't as smart as we could be;)
Seriously, outside of purely academic, what difference does it make today to anybody if something like Idiocracy comes true or not in the next 500 years? Actually it's possible to make a ton of money scaring the population into believing something and selling them something to 'fix' the perceived problem.
No, obviously you can't avoid ALL taxes, I am talking about income, payroll, corporate. Even if not 100% of them, but a very significant amount can be avoided, in some cases all of them can be avoided, it all depends what exactly the business is, how it's structured (how are the relationships between providing products while getting paid and running the company managed).
Disclaimer: I've been on linux exclusively for about 3 years now, just stopped using everything else.
However that stuff you just said is gobbledygook to somebody not using linux at all. Why don't we also ask people to reconfigure a solar matrix with a tachion accelerator to increase the boson throughput while at it? Sounds about the same complexity.
This is akin to a person taking a digital camera and having to replace a few components inside, nothing big, just the electronic image sensor. Or maybe having to change the head gasket in their car's engine before they can drive it. Easy peasy. Everybody does it when they put their hands on a complex piece of machinery before they can use it, right?
A goalpost? Hitler was not just a politician, he was the government. He was a dictator even if supposedly an 'elected' one. He'd send you to a concentration camp without any jury, that's for certain.
As to me 'giving up' - hasn't happened yet. My ideology is principled, yours is nonsense propaganda pushed onto you by your totalitarian regime, they did a good job at brainwashing you, but I suppose it doesn't take too much effort to brainwash somebody without a brain.
The parents of those children are the ones SENDING their kids to work. Those are the same children who would have had to work with their parents farming for subsistence. It is not the LAWS that change the circumstance.
Gov't could have passed all the laws in 15th they wanted to outlaw child labour, it would have been just as effective as passing a law in 15th century that people should be moving cargo by FLYING IT.
Free market capitalists have demonstrated beyond all shadow of a doubt that they are the scum of the earth.
- oh yea? AFAIC it's the socialists, the Marxists but also the fascists who have proven that exact point about themselves. Given any amount of choice, I choose free market every time.
you seem to think that according everyone some rights is a Bad Thing
- because it's bullshit and not a 'right' in any way. The rights are being stolen - taken away, with every single bill that passes that has the word 'right' in it.
The so called 'Civil Rights Act' was an entitlement and obligation act in reality, which worsened the situation of the black workers, who had only 15% unemployment among youth before then and now they are have 50% in the same category (16-25y.o.) It's not a right for somebody to be given an entitlement for a LAWSUIT against somebody else, when that somebody else exercises their right to do business as they wish on their own private fucking property, you douche.
"your reason for living is to provide us with money. You don't get decisions. Get us money."
- so why are these laws enforced against employers rather than against parents? This is fucked up nonsense, the reason child labour was stopped wasn't laws, same with slavery. Slavery didn't stop because of laws. Women got rights not because of laws.
All of those things, and more (gays, whatever), have to do with social changes. So child labour stopped being profitable and society stopped using it by the time capitalism made it increasingly necessary for the workers to have special knowledge and skills that are acquired over a long period of training, so children are not good as labourers without all that knowledge. Free market capitalism stopped child labour, not any amount of laws.
Must stress this again and again, just like in all those previous cases there will be people opposing to the idea that all patents and copyrights must be abolished and government must be explicitly prohibited from issuing them and from dealing with them.
Well, that, and government must be prohibited from meddling with business, money, economy, it must be prohibited from collecting income taxes, starting illegal wars.
-Sir, you are being accused of violating a patent. -What patent? -We cannot tell you that, catch 22. -But don't you have to tell me what I am violating? -No, it's the law.
Bull, she just wasn't told what was going to happen to her kidney and that it could be implanted back into her. She should sue, in fact I am going to email her the suggestion.
As an individual, when I buy things, I directly fund companies,
- wrong, you do not fund companies by buying something, you participate in equitable trade when you MAKE something.
That's why Fed printing fake money and giving it out is wrong - they don't produce anything of value for the money they give out, so this money is pure theft.
That's why taxing one person's work and giving subsidies to another is doubly wrong: 1. It takes away capital from somebody who actually MADE it. 2. It gives this capital to somebody who DID NOT work. 3. It allows the person who didn't work and didn't produce anything to take away from those who produced something and do it with their own money too.
It is immoral to avoid taxation if you bribe congressmen to get those loopholes created.
- absolutely not.
It is absolutely moral to avoid taxation by bribing WHOEVER it takes IF there are people that you can bribe to achieve this goal.
That's the problem in the first place - you have people in positions of power who can make decisions on income/payroll/corporate/capital gains/dividend/other forms of income taxes, none of these taxes should exist, they are immoral.
Ok, this is the theory. How do you explain surproduction crisis, such as 1929?
- how do you explain that you don't understand what the recession of 1929 was actually all about? I explain it by your lack of knowledge and purposeful distortion of history by your education system.
The recession resulted from the Federal reserve of USA printing USD to support bad UK debt. Due to this intervention a bubble was inflated in the agriculture stocks and in this comment I showed the history of Hoover and then FDR stepping in with huge bail outs and stimulus packages, which turned the recession into the Great Depression.
It should be an honor and privilege for everyone to sacrifice themselves
- you actively wanting to be a slave is not my problem, it's yours.
And don't call something a sacrifice that is not, being forced to pay taxes is not a sacrifice, it's slavery.
As to 'sponging off' - it's everybody's moral and rational obligation to themselves to minimise the taxes they pay (and everybody pays some taxes unfortunately).
Slashdot Mirror
You don't think black markets have governments? Just try to walk away without paying for something, or setting up an operation undercutting the biggest seller.
- I have participated in black markets on either side of the trade, there are no governments, but there are contracts. Certainly there can be plenty of violence in some cases, but that doesn't make anybody on a black market into government.
There is a very robust and effective governance of the OSS community.
- nobody governs my OSS projects, just nobody except for me, and people use my stuff and I use stuff of other people.
Again, what you believe is 'government' is probably management of any particular single project within the project, but that's not government, that doesn't limit my freedoms in any way.
As to reality, and your opinion, that's your prerogative, it doesn't have anything to do with me as I don't care what it is.
I immediately thought of two guys, named 'GIMP and Linux' and a 'compile' as some type of a metaphor.
It's disgusting.
I love using Gimp though.
But if somebody does it, they should really avoid making a similar mistake as this:
--
"I'm sorry, Fry, but astronomers renamed Uranus in 2620 to end that stupid joke once and for all."
"Oh. What's it called now?"
"Urectum. Here, let me locate it for you."
---
Also don't let Mark Shuttleworth name it for you, or it'll be known as:
Here, kids, this is Limpy Aye-aye.
By the way, markets don't exist? Without governments?
All the black markets in the world would be surprised to find out they don't exist.
The market of the open/free source software will be surprised to find out it doesn't exist.
Nonsense, markets exist without any governments at all. Somalia is actually a good example of a recent market economy (never mind that they are a former British colony, former Communist state that decided to get from under this dictatorial system 20 years ago and had a bloody civil war that decimated the country).
People producing stuff and exchanging it is market and it happens whether there is any government trying to steal from you or not. The difference is that with the governments trying to steal from you the market is not free.
It's fine, if we are wrong and we, as a whole market, don't recognise this to be a problem and it somehow does what you claim (it's absurd, but whatever), then we don't survive as a species, but there is nothing special about not surviving as a species. OTOH we don't have a better mechanism than the market to make the best decisions that we can, the mechanism just doesn't exist. The despotic government actions never lead to any good outcomes, that much we are sure of, they do lead to poverty, misery and death, again something we are certain about.
I rather not have a human civilisation at all than be subjected to the collective despotism.
I don't know what 'we the people' thing is there, but I don't believe that those, who actually really end up paying the taxes are willing to take on yet another burden.
How about all the subsidies stop to everybody, from any company (like GM or banks) to every single individual, whatever it is, which means, how about we let the market decide what should be done. You know, voluntary transactions among the participants in the market actually making decisions as a whole, rather than trying to force some people into a paradigm that they are completely uninterested in because it is against their self interests?
You want to buy more expensive, but 'cleaner' energy? Allow competition in the market for such a thing, and if it gets traction - you win.
I am not going to be on your side, you see, not voluntarily, but maybe the market as a whole, will be. It's our right to live our lives as free individuals, not as slaves in a collective system.
The only correct solution is to end all copyright and actually patent laws, abolish them all.
There must be a point in time, when a discussion about this becomes unanimous instead of being a dividing issue
You don't get it, because you aren't familiar with my history of comments here, I did leave and moved my business, you ignorant fool.
It can be argued that intelligence is a poor survival trait.
- but it doesn't really matter to us, does it, we aren't as smart as we could be ;)
Seriously, outside of purely academic, what difference does it make today to anybody if something like Idiocracy comes true or not in the next 500 years? Actually it's possible to make a ton of money scaring the population into believing something and selling them something to 'fix' the perceived problem.
No, obviously you can't avoid ALL taxes, I am talking about income, payroll, corporate. Even if not 100% of them, but a very significant amount can be avoided, in some cases all of them can be avoided, it all depends what exactly the business is, how it's structured (how are the relationships between providing products while getting paid and running the company managed).
Disclaimer: I've been on linux exclusively for about 3 years now, just stopped using everything else.
However that stuff you just said is gobbledygook to somebody not using linux at all. Why don't we also ask people to reconfigure a solar matrix with a tachion accelerator to increase the boson throughput while at it? Sounds about the same complexity.
This is akin to a person taking a digital camera and having to replace a few components inside, nothing big, just the electronic image sensor. Or maybe having to change the head gasket in their car's engine before they can drive it. Easy peasy. Everybody does it when they put their hands on a complex piece of machinery before they can use it, right?
by the way, there are a number of fairly simple ways of avoiding all taxes by running an online business.
A goalpost? Hitler was not just a politician, he was the government. He was a dictator even if supposedly an 'elected' one. He'd send you to a concentration camp without any jury, that's for certain.
As to me 'giving up' - hasn't happened yet. My ideology is principled, yours is nonsense propaganda pushed onto you by your totalitarian regime, they did a good job at brainwashing you, but I suppose it doesn't take too much effort to brainwash somebody without a brain.
The parents of those children are the ones SENDING their kids to work. Those are the same children who would have had to work with their parents farming for subsistence. It is not the LAWS that change the circumstance.
Gov't could have passed all the laws in 15th they wanted to outlaw child labour, it would have been just as effective as passing a law in 15th century that people should be moving cargo by FLYING IT.
Free market capitalists have demonstrated beyond all shadow of a doubt that they are the scum of the earth.
- oh yea? AFAIC it's the socialists, the Marxists but also the fascists who have proven that exact point about themselves. Given any amount of choice, I choose free market every time.
you seem to think that according everyone some rights is a Bad Thing
- because it's bullshit and not a 'right' in any way. The rights are being stolen - taken away, with every single bill that passes that has the word 'right' in it.
The so called 'Civil Rights Act' was an entitlement and obligation act in reality, which worsened the situation of the black workers, who had only 15% unemployment among youth before then and now they are have 50% in the same category (16-25y.o.) It's not a right for somebody to be given an entitlement for a LAWSUIT against somebody else, when that somebody else exercises their right to do business as they wish on their own private fucking property, you douche.
"your reason for living is to provide us with money. You don't get decisions. Get us money."
- so why are these laws enforced against employers rather than against parents? This is fucked up nonsense, the reason child labour was stopped wasn't laws, same with slavery. Slavery didn't stop because of laws. Women got rights not because of laws.
All of those things, and more (gays, whatever), have to do with social changes. So child labour stopped being profitable and society stopped using it by the time capitalism made it increasingly necessary for the workers to have special knowledge and skills that are acquired over a long period of training, so children are not good as labourers without all that knowledge. Free market capitalism stopped child labour, not any amount of laws.
Must stress this again and again, just like in all those previous cases there will be people opposing to the idea that all patents and copyrights must be abolished and government must be explicitly prohibited from issuing them and from dealing with them.
Well, that, and government must be prohibited from meddling with business, money, economy, it must be prohibited from collecting income taxes, starting illegal wars.
-Sir, you are being accused of violating a patent.
-What patent?
-We cannot tell you that, catch 22.
-But don't you have to tell me what I am violating?
-No, it's the law.
I thought that we invaded Iraq to make us safer. I thought the war in Afghanistan would make us safer
- it is curious how you believe that starting a war against somebody makes it safer for you.
Bull, she just wasn't told what was going to happen to her kidney and that it could be implanted back into her. She should sue, in fact I am going to email her the suggestion.
As an individual, when I buy things, I directly fund companies,
- wrong, you do not fund companies by buying something, you participate in equitable trade when you MAKE something.
That's why Fed printing fake money and giving it out is wrong - they don't produce anything of value for the money they give out, so this money is pure theft.
That's why taxing one person's work and giving subsidies to another is doubly wrong:
1. It takes away capital from somebody who actually MADE it.
2. It gives this capital to somebody who DID NOT work.
3. It allows the person who didn't work and didn't produce anything to take away from those who produced something and do it with their own money too.
It is immoral to avoid taxation if you bribe congressmen to get those loopholes created.
- absolutely not.
It is absolutely moral to avoid taxation by bribing WHOEVER it takes IF there are people that you can bribe to achieve this goal.
That's the problem in the first place - you have people in positions of power who can make decisions on income/payroll/corporate/capital gains/dividend/other forms of income taxes, none of these taxes should exist, they are immoral.
That's right - taxing people's WORK is IMMORAL.
Taxing people's LIFE is IMMORAL.
Taxing people for doing work is immoral.
So Hitler wasn't government? OK, he wasn't the top official in the government at the time?
Ok, this is the theory. How do you explain surproduction crisis, such as 1929?
- how do you explain that you don't understand what the recession of 1929 was actually all about? I explain it by your lack of knowledge and purposeful distortion of history by your education system.
The recession resulted from the Federal reserve of USA printing USD to support bad UK debt. Due to this intervention a bubble was inflated in the agriculture stocks and in this comment I showed the history of Hoover and then FDR stepping in with huge bail outs and stimulus packages, which turned the recession into the Great Depression.
It should be an honor and privilege for everyone to sacrifice themselves
- you actively wanting to be a slave is not my problem, it's yours.
And don't call something a sacrifice that is not, being forced to pay taxes is not a sacrifice, it's slavery.
As to 'sponging off' - it's everybody's moral and rational obligation to themselves to minimise the taxes they pay (and everybody pays some taxes unfortunately).