Free markets are the only real economic driver and health care is just as much about economy as any other good or service, you can't have health care if there is no wealth generated and wealth is only generated by individual entrepreneurship and collectivism is the antithesis to the individual freedoms required for individuals to be entrepreneurial. USA today has NOTHING TO DO with free markets, it's a corrupt socialist/fascist state without any free market, a collectivised nightmare.
OMFG, you are just so dumb, I did not say America HAS a cheap medical system, I said that America BUILT a cheap and accessible system when it still WAS A FREE MARKET CAPITALIST COUNTRY back in the 19th century and that the socialism/fascism of the last 100 years DESTROYED that. The rest of your argument falls right on its stupid face because you can't read apparently.
By the way, you may be confused on what 'cooperative' is. Cooperation cannot be achieved by threat of violence, that's called coercion, you see language is important, words have meanings and I do not cooperate under the barrel of a gun but I may be forced into slavery under it and unless you are making the argument that slaves 'cooperated' with their masters then you can't use that word to describe what the collective does.
There is no market failure, market is a combined desire of individual participants. There is market manipulation by governments. Governments that stand in the way of companies trying to bring products to markets.
IF there is such a huge need for antibiotics people should be able to make money by satisfying that need and if that means that a large amount of money first has to be gambled with, it's possible to achieve even that by raising that money in the free market the way kickstarter does it.
Of-course there is no free market in drugs, government is all over it, so don't talk about 'market failure'. There are perfectly valid FREE MARKET solutions to it, but the government PREVENTS free market from existing in the drug industry. You could start a company tomorrow and try and create new antibiotics if government wasn't standing in your way and all you would have to do is start a money raising campaign for that purpose. Try it, see how fast the government stops you from doing whatever it is you think needs to be done here.
But instead you want the slave owner State system to steal money from people to run your pet project and you want most of that money to be stolen from people who have more of it than you do, thus 'progressive income tax' and such.
You must have slept through history class. There was no 'Soviet Russia' until the revolution in the 20th century.
- right, slept through history class... at home, where my family members told me actual history about expropriation of land. My actual history class IN USSR schools was worthless though.
Market is regulated by itself, by individuals making individual decisions on every day basis and no, con people shouldn't be killing people, but that's beside the point. Maybe you believe there are no con people in your 'regulated markets'? Ha!
No, I am not interested in gray when we are talking about SLAVERY. There is no minimal amount of slavery to justify that gray area.
You don't like the industry and think you can do a better job than the industry, start doing it, build your own company and sell your own solutions. FDA is a murderous government organisation, just like all other government organisations.
- a bunch of made up nonsense that covers up the simple idea of government control and destruction of individual liberties and yes, we had 'it', when we destroyed private property rights, stole land from people who were working on it (and yes, they actually owned it as individuals, which is the only way to own something), stole and destroyed all other businesses as well, factories, stores, whatever.
Again, I have 0 interest in the superficial differences between definitions of collectivism where the actual true life consequences are very simple: destruction of individual liberties, destruction of individual freedoms, oppression of the individual by the collective.
Are you sure you want to go down this route? France, Germany, Russia, everybody was taking note of the Mayo Clinic from late 18 hundreds while in Soviet Russia we were busy declaring that genetics and cybernetics are 'prostitutes of the bourgeoisie' and promoting Lysenkoism instead of real science.
Or maybe you think that only free market creates con artists? Or maybe you think that socialist/fascist control over individuals actually provides people with more individual choices in the market and lower prices? Hmmm, I have a bridge I want to sell, interested?
You only have yourself to blame for your shitty life experiences and generally speaking to fuck something you have to have a cock first and the only one you've got is the one growing out of your neck that you are eating into.
Ha ha ha ha! In the USSR we invented 4 or 5 antibiotics over the life of the country (a country that lasted for 69 or 74 years, depends on how you count) and it was complete and total socialism and of-course it was complete and total failure. How many antibiotics did they invent in Cuba exactly? North Korea?
American capitalism in 19th century American Free Market is actually what created cheap accessible and effective medical and pharma systems as for profit businesses and for the last 100 years American socialism/fascism have been destroying everything that was done.
I was born in the USSR and saw soviet socialism as invective against the individual, I also lived in other socialist countries and again saw Western style socialism as invective against the individual. USA style corporatism and large socialist style government is fascist at this point, so I can observe that as well and I am not interested in it either, I also see it as invective against the individual. You think I need Wikipedia to define something from me that I saw and keep seeing in real life? Maybe you need Wikipedia to tell you what is obviously going on around, (which defines you as a person not worth arguing with) but I do not.
Socialism and fascism are both collectivism and collectivism is what I am 100% against, as it destroys individualism that I see as a requirement to have a free society.
Actually AFAIC they are the same thing from point of view of the resulting oppression of the individual liberties and freedoms and ability to run your life without the State interference.
You tell me, what is in your opinion the gigantic difference that matters enough where it concerns the individual liberties exactly?
AFAIC I don't care if it is some fucking autocrat with strong links in the corporate sector to decides to limit my freedoms and oppress me or if it is the fucking mob with its fucking voting system that decides to oppress me, the end result is the same fucking shit.
In both cases people that actually want to work for living and not be stolen from by the State end up being exactly that - slaves in the system, having their income stolen by the State. Does it matter what the stolen property ends up being used for from the perspective of the person it is stolen from? Not even a bit, because both systems promise this 'social contract' crap that is complete and utter nonsense, designed to vindicate the actual theft that is going on.
Not even slightly interested in irrelevant differences between the two when the major resulting issues are exactly the same.
No conundrum whatsoever, socialists and fascists are both collectivists that oppose individual freedom and free markets in general, they both seek market intervention and control over individual lives and of businesses, they both see the group being above the individual and often enough people switch between two without major realignment of their belief systems. The important part for me is both are collectivist, both are oppressive, both see government as the instrument to destroy individual freedoms and create large and powerful state.
Never worked for any provider, I run my own software company. Your inability to see the ideas based on their own merits rather than immediately assuming that the person carrying the idea forward has some personal interest in it (beside the obvious one, that I have already described many times, the idea that individuals must not be oppressed by the state) is not unusual in this day and age of socialist and fascist ideology propaganda and acceptance.
This action by government is one of those monumental changes that create monopolies and once you have government protected monopolies others cannot easily compete with them (if it is even legal to compete with them without also falling under the same rules that created these monopolies in the first place). These are horrendous news for individual freedoms but not unexpected in the Socialist Fascist States of America.
As to revolutions and such nonsense - the stupid and jealous should learn to see beyond their nose, none of those revolutions made anything better for the people who were poor in those systems prior to any of it. The poor get poorer, the rich leave.
I have 0 interest in any of your jealousy, 0 interest in any theft and redistribution of stolen goods by the mob for the mob. Revolutions are a ruse, they were always set up by pseudo-intellectuals who wanted power and used the dumb masses to get that power and then they stomped all over those masses once they got to power.
AFAIC people will eventually learn that it is better to live in an actual capitalist free market society after going through so many ridiculous attempts at theft and redistribution.
But don't be mistaken by my civil response to your comment, I see you as vomit, nothing more.
Your gay projections are powerless here, you are a disease that the society is dying off now, the foul rot of your brain is trying to transfer itself through the foul excretions of your mouth hole into the ears of the stupid and the weak, but like all diseases you will either go away and disappear or destroy the host, there are no other options.
You think your pseudo-intellectual midgetry matters to me one bit, you gnome? Robber barons were captains of industry that created the wealth that the likes of pukes like you always want a piece of to steal for yourself. Monopolies are created by governments and as to private police force protecting private property - that's the only police force that has any moral grounds to exist in the first place.
Go pound a piece of crocodile dung, there is nothing I need from you at any moment in time, nothing useful comes out of your mouth, unless they can invent a machine powered by your mouth farts.
The long time kuro5hin.org troll strikes again. People who talk about reducing government oppression and allowing people actually to make ultimate decisions in their lives without being oppressed are either stupid or evil. Those are the choices the troll is giving you and you are eating it right up,/..
Groups do not matter, it's not a fallacy at all, it is the core principle: groups do not matter, only individuals do.
Markets do not fail at all when they are not coerced by external forces. You are assigning a moral judgement to market and then saying market fails when your moral judgement is violated in some way.
Fuck it, just let Bush and Clinton run on the same ticket. Call it Clinton Bush ticket. Everybody will be happy. Then every month they can take turns as to who is on top.
I see how you are confused by the concept of the 'invisible hand', of-course you might be, you don't realise that it is just a combined action of many individual participants in the market. The invisible hand is a statistical approximation and result of what individuals are doing. As to banks and stock exchanges they are not 'capitalist temples'. Capitalism is private ownership and operation of property. How the property is stored and/or exchanged is secondary.
As to the economists, they are hardly priests, especially the so called 'main stream economists' of today. They are charlatans more likely.
Soviet economy collapsed when the country could no longer afford to buy stuff. I suppose you didn't live there in the eighties, but it wasn't faith that was lucking, it was PRODUCTS and SERVICES that people waited for hours and hours for in long long queues.
As to 'human sin' of financial irresponsibility, there is no such thing. However there is a sin and it's much more insidious than that, it's jealousy and desire to use threat of government violence to commit acts of theft (income/wealth taxing) and redistribution (welfare statism).
There is nothing wrong with the market, it is not failing it is doing what it is supposed to do as each individual in the group makes best possible decision for himself. Market is a combination of all individual voluntary decisions, how can a market fail when individuals are doing exactly what they are supposed to do in it? What is best for individuals is what market delivers, it's the entire point of the market. As to the other considerations, eventually as they become important to individuals they will be individual choices. Groups are dangerous and oppressive, individuals and their individual decisions are the key, not groups.
In order to 'eliminate the need for anyone to borrow' you have to have unlimited resources that are not scarce and that are accessible easily by anybody and there is no way in hell that this Universe will provide us with such an implement, given that it is itself subject to entropy laws.
The best we can do is allow people to keep with they earn and build as big fortunes as they possibly can. They are the 'stars' of their particular solar systems, they accumulate in the most efficient manner compared to the rest, but the rest are orbiting them, sharing their centre of mass and profiting from the fact that they exist and spend their energy at all not only for personal consumption but actually to lend money to those, who need an infusion of capital to attempt their new business idea or whatever it is they need money for.
There should be many people who act as such money anchors, governments are completely useless for this role, governments have no concept of real savings or real money or real work, they cannot asses risk at all and there are too few of them in the first place, so if an idea goes bust, the rest of the society is minimally affected with large capitalists who take their own private hit as opposed to the entire economies that allow governments to 'manage' stuff.
Sure, it would be a wonderful utopia to have instant and infinite energy and stuff being produced. However that's not going to happen and there will always be stuff that we will want or need.
Not everybody has a yacht. Not everybody has a private space ship. Not everybody can live 10000 years. Not everybody has unlimited access to good sex life. Etc.etc.etc. As long as these hold true, people will be able to come up with ideas for businesses and if they don't have enough capital to run with, they can approach somebody who does and tell them what they want to do and then it is a private decision to accept that risk or not and then it is the responsibility of the person who is taking the loan to try his or her best to achieve the goal.
That's how we build the real society with real wealth, not by magic, but by voluntary cooperation between those who already built their fortunes and those who have ideas and the rest, who are just labour.
Slashdot Mirror
Stop insulting people.
- no. Stupid people need to be insulted, there is no other way around it, they have to be told how fucking stupid they are. Health care was extremely affordable and cheap in the USA before the socialism/fascism fucked up the country. In fact people came to the USA for best and cheapest care before the government got its dirty murderous hands on it.
Free markets are the only real economic driver and health care is just as much about economy as any other good or service, you can't have health care if there is no wealth generated and wealth is only generated by individual entrepreneurship and collectivism is the antithesis to the individual freedoms required for individuals to be entrepreneurial. USA today has NOTHING TO DO with free markets, it's a corrupt socialist/fascist state without any free market, a collectivised nightmare.
OMFG, you are just so dumb, I did not say America HAS a cheap medical system, I said that America BUILT a cheap and accessible system when it still WAS A FREE MARKET CAPITALIST COUNTRY back in the 19th century and that the socialism/fascism of the last 100 years DESTROYED that. The rest of your argument falls right on its stupid face because you can't read apparently.
By the way, you may be confused on what 'cooperative' is. Cooperation cannot be achieved by threat of violence, that's called coercion, you see language is important, words have meanings and I do not cooperate under the barrel of a gun but I may be forced into slavery under it and unless you are making the argument that slaves 'cooperated' with their masters then you can't use that word to describe what the collective does.
There is no market failure, market is a combined desire of individual participants. There is market manipulation by governments. Governments that stand in the way of companies trying to bring products to markets.
IF there is such a huge need for antibiotics people should be able to make money by satisfying that need and if that means that a large amount of money first has to be gambled with, it's possible to achieve even that by raising that money in the free market the way kickstarter does it.
Of-course there is no free market in drugs, government is all over it, so don't talk about 'market failure'. There are perfectly valid FREE MARKET solutions to it, but the government PREVENTS free market from existing in the drug industry. You could start a company tomorrow and try and create new antibiotics if government wasn't standing in your way and all you would have to do is start a money raising campaign for that purpose. Try it, see how fast the government stops you from doing whatever it is you think needs to be done here.
But instead you want the slave owner State system to steal money from people to run your pet project and you want most of that money to be stolen from people who have more of it than you do, thus 'progressive income tax' and such.
You must have slept through history class. There was no 'Soviet Russia' until the revolution in the 20th century.
- right, slept through history class... at home, where my family members told me actual history about expropriation of land. My actual history class IN USSR schools was worthless though.
Market is regulated by itself, by individuals making individual decisions on every day basis and no, con people shouldn't be killing people, but that's beside the point. Maybe you believe there are no con people in your 'regulated markets'? Ha!
No, I am not interested in gray when we are talking about SLAVERY. There is no minimal amount of slavery to justify that gray area.
You don't like the industry and think you can do a better job than the industry, start doing it, build your own company and sell your own solutions. FDA is a murderous government organisation, just like all other government organisations.
social ownership and cooperative engagement
- a bunch of made up nonsense that covers up the simple idea of government control and destruction of individual liberties and yes, we had 'it', when we destroyed private property rights, stole land from people who were working on it (and yes, they actually owned it as individuals, which is the only way to own something), stole and destroyed all other businesses as well, factories, stores, whatever.
Again, I have 0 interest in the superficial differences between definitions of collectivism where the actual true life consequences are very simple: destruction of individual liberties, destruction of individual freedoms, oppression of the individual by the collective.
Are you sure you want to go down this route? France, Germany, Russia, everybody was taking note of the Mayo Clinic from late 18 hundreds while in Soviet Russia we were busy declaring that genetics and cybernetics are 'prostitutes of the bourgeoisie' and promoting Lysenkoism instead of real science.
Or maybe you think that only free market creates con artists? Or maybe you think that socialist/fascist control over individuals actually provides people with more individual choices in the market and lower prices? Hmmm, I have a bridge I want to sell, interested?
You only have yourself to blame for your shitty life experiences and generally speaking to fuck something you have to have a cock first and the only one you've got is the one growing out of your neck that you are eating into.
Ha ha ha ha! In the USSR we invented 4 or 5 antibiotics over the life of the country (a country that lasted for 69 or 74 years, depends on how you count) and it was complete and total socialism and of-course it was complete and total failure. How many antibiotics did they invent in Cuba exactly? North Korea?
American capitalism in 19th century American Free Market is actually what created cheap accessible and effective medical and pharma systems as for profit businesses and for the last 100 years American socialism/fascism have been destroying everything that was done.
I was born in the USSR and saw soviet socialism as invective against the individual, I also lived in other socialist countries and again saw Western style socialism as invective against the individual. USA style corporatism and large socialist style government is fascist at this point, so I can observe that as well and I am not interested in it either, I also see it as invective against the individual. You think I need Wikipedia to define something from me that I saw and keep seeing in real life? Maybe you need Wikipedia to tell you what is obviously going on around, (which defines you as a person not worth arguing with) but I do not.
Socialism and fascism are both collectivism and collectivism is what I am 100% against, as it destroys individualism that I see as a requirement to have a free society.
Actually AFAIC they are the same thing from point of view of the resulting oppression of the individual liberties and freedoms and ability to run your life without the State interference.
You tell me, what is in your opinion the gigantic difference that matters enough where it concerns the individual liberties exactly?
AFAIC I don't care if it is some fucking autocrat with strong links in the corporate sector to decides to limit my freedoms and oppress me or if it is the fucking mob with its fucking voting system that decides to oppress me, the end result is the same fucking shit.
In both cases people that actually want to work for living and not be stolen from by the State end up being exactly that - slaves in the system, having their income stolen by the State. Does it matter what the stolen property ends up being used for from the perspective of the person it is stolen from? Not even a bit, because both systems promise this 'social contract' crap that is complete and utter nonsense, designed to vindicate the actual theft that is going on.
Not even slightly interested in irrelevant differences between the two when the major resulting issues are exactly the same.
No conundrum whatsoever, socialists and fascists are both collectivists that oppose individual freedom and free markets in general, they both seek market intervention and control over individual lives and of businesses, they both see the group being above the individual and often enough people switch between two without major realignment of their belief systems. The important part for me is both are collectivist, both are oppressive, both see government as the instrument to destroy individual freedoms and create large and powerful state.
Never worked for any provider, I run my own software company. Your inability to see the ideas based on their own merits rather than immediately assuming that the person carrying the idea forward has some personal interest in it (beside the obvious one, that I have already described many times, the idea that individuals must not be oppressed by the state) is not unusual in this day and age of socialist and fascist ideology propaganda and acceptance.
This action by government is one of those monumental changes that create monopolies and once you have government protected monopolies others cannot easily compete with them (if it is even legal to compete with them without also falling under the same rules that created these monopolies in the first place). These are horrendous news for individual freedoms but not unexpected in the Socialist Fascist States of America.
More of this to come and for a good reason.
As to revolutions and such nonsense - the stupid and jealous should learn to see beyond their nose, none of those revolutions made anything better for the people who were poor in those systems prior to any of it. The poor get poorer, the rich leave.
I have 0 interest in any of your jealousy, 0 interest in any theft and redistribution of stolen goods by the mob for the mob. Revolutions are a ruse, they were always set up by pseudo-intellectuals who wanted power and used the dumb masses to get that power and then they stomped all over those masses once they got to power.
AFAIC people will eventually learn that it is better to live in an actual capitalist free market society after going through so many ridiculous attempts at theft and redistribution.
But don't be mistaken by my civil response to your comment, I see you as vomit, nothing more.
Your gay projections are powerless here, you are a disease that the society is dying off now, the foul rot of your brain is trying to transfer itself through the foul excretions of your mouth hole into the ears of the stupid and the weak, but like all diseases you will either go away and disappear or destroy the host, there are no other options.
You are about as disgusting as a zit, once you get squeezed all that puss starts coming out, you thieving cock smegma.
You think your pseudo-intellectual midgetry matters to me one bit, you gnome? Robber barons were captains of industry that created the wealth that the likes of pukes like you always want a piece of to steal for yourself. Monopolies are created by governments and as to private police force protecting private property - that's the only police force that has any moral grounds to exist in the first place.
Go pound a piece of crocodile dung, there is nothing I need from you at any moment in time, nothing useful comes out of your mouth, unless they can invent a machine powered by your mouth farts.
The long time kuro5hin.org troll strikes again. People who talk about reducing government oppression and allowing people actually to make ultimate decisions in their lives without being oppressed are either stupid or evil. Those are the choices the troll is giving you and you are eating it right up, /..
Groups do not matter, it's not a fallacy at all, it is the core principle: groups do not matter, only individuals do.
Markets do not fail at all when they are not coerced by external forces. You are assigning a moral judgement to market and then saying market fails when your moral judgement is violated in some way.
Fuck it, just let Bush and Clinton run on the same ticket. Call it Clinton Bush ticket. Everybody will be happy. Then every month they can take turns as to who is on top.
I see how you are confused by the concept of the 'invisible hand', of-course you might be, you don't realise that it is just a combined action of many individual participants in the market. The invisible hand is a statistical approximation and result of what individuals are doing. As to banks and stock exchanges they are not 'capitalist temples'. Capitalism is private ownership and operation of property. How the property is stored and/or exchanged is secondary.
As to the economists, they are hardly priests, especially the so called 'main stream economists' of today. They are charlatans more likely.
Soviet economy collapsed when the country could no longer afford to buy stuff. I suppose you didn't live there in the eighties, but it wasn't faith that was lucking, it was PRODUCTS and SERVICES that people waited for hours and hours for in long long queues.
As to 'human sin' of financial irresponsibility, there is no such thing. However there is a sin and it's much more insidious than that, it's jealousy and desire to use threat of government violence to commit acts of theft (income/wealth taxing) and redistribution (welfare statism).
There is nothing wrong with the market, it is not failing it is doing what it is supposed to do as each individual in the group makes best possible decision for himself. Market is a combination of all individual voluntary decisions, how can a market fail when individuals are doing exactly what they are supposed to do in it?
What is best for individuals is what market delivers, it's the entire point of the market. As to the other considerations, eventually as they become important to individuals they will be individual choices. Groups are dangerous and oppressive, individuals and their individual decisions are the key, not groups.
wrong head
In order to 'eliminate the need for anyone to borrow' you have to have unlimited resources that are not scarce and that are accessible easily by anybody and there is no way in hell that this Universe will provide us with such an implement, given that it is itself subject to entropy laws.
The best we can do is allow people to keep with they earn and build as big fortunes as they possibly can. They are the 'stars' of their particular solar systems, they accumulate in the most efficient manner compared to the rest, but the rest are orbiting them, sharing their centre of mass and profiting from the fact that they exist and spend their energy at all not only for personal consumption but actually to lend money to those, who need an infusion of capital to attempt their new business idea or whatever it is they need money for.
There should be many people who act as such money anchors, governments are completely useless for this role, governments have no concept of real savings or real money or real work, they cannot asses risk at all and there are too few of them in the first place, so if an idea goes bust, the rest of the society is minimally affected with large capitalists who take their own private hit as opposed to the entire economies that allow governments to 'manage' stuff.
Sure, it would be a wonderful utopia to have instant and infinite energy and stuff being produced. However that's not going to happen and there will always be stuff that we will want or need.
Not everybody has a yacht. Not everybody has a private space ship. Not everybody can live 10000 years. Not everybody has unlimited access to good sex life. Etc.etc.etc. As long as these hold true, people will be able to come up with ideas for businesses and if they don't have enough capital to run with, they can approach somebody who does and tell them what they want to do and then it is a private decision to accept that risk or not and then it is the responsibility of the person who is taking the loan to try his or her best to achieve the goal.
That's how we build the real society with real wealth, not by magic, but by voluntary cooperation between those who already built their fortunes and those who have ideas and the rest, who are just labour.