Just out of curiosity, have you downloaded android OS, modified it and installed it on your incredible? What have you done on your incredible that can't be done on the iPhone due to it being open? Not trying to flame here, Im just curious...
The mere fact that the iPhone/iPod/iPad are a success is a pretty damn good indicator of the following:
- People (Consumers. The 99.999% of actual humans on earth that aren't geeky ass, linux using, slashdot reading nerds) don't give a flying fuck about 'open' platforms nor could they even define the word and how it relates to their phone/mp3 player.
- Flash must not be THAT important if these devices have done so well without them.
The fact is that if you really think you need to have an 'open' product choose one with your dollar bills and stop trolling the internet looking for Apple stories to bitch about. If you don't care about your devices being open then buy the device that you like best and enjoy it.
So....what you are saying here is that you don't want native applications anymore. Instead of native Windows apps and native Mac apps and native Linux apps you would rather just have everything be made in Adobe AIR?
Thank fucking god you aren't the one making decisions that matter....
Did you take the time to read what I was replying to? I'll let you go ahead and do that now.
Now that you read it lets look at a quote from it:
"What I *do* have a problem though, is when a device I *own* won't let me install a piece of software that *I* want to install."
Now read my reply again, slowly this time. Then read your totally-missed-the-point reply.
I guess you dont own a TV or microwave either. The fact that a device allows or disallows you to install software is a dying '90's Linux fanboy anecdote. There are embedded systems all over the place that are fully closed systems with no access for you to install software on it and I'm gonna venture a guess that you own a few of them.
So....if people don't share your exact opinions, wants and needs they become stupid? Sounds like you may need a few minutes in front of a mirror my friend.
Really? Are you fucking serious? You are going to change your demographic to get closer to a monopolistic market share?
I'm afraid it doesn't work like that mr. IT Ninja.
True that. I'll bet dollars to donuts the WePad doesn't get 120,000 pre orders in it's first day and 550,000 sales in it's first week. In fact, if it does I'll eat my first born child and buy 2 for every slashdotter.
I forgot to mention one really important aspect of Macbooks: they don't lose 1/2 their value the day you buy them. This will come as a shock to many but you can actually resell a Macbook a year or 3 after buying it and you won't end up selling an $1800 laptop for $300 like you would with a PC.
They may be a bit overpriced but not to the level many slashdotters would have you believe. They are solid as a rock and the batteries are better than any other notebook I have ever had as is the screen. Slashdotters will be quick to send me a link to a dell or acer laptop with similar specs that is a bit cheaper but in reality you get what you pay for. The unibody frame is super solid and you can be 100% certain all the hardware will work together perfectly. Not to mention you get 2 GPU's the slick magnet power cord adapter that has saved my ass on more than one occasion and an attention to detail that you won't find anywhere else.
Not to knock your comment or anything but if modern Android phones (as opposed to ancient ones ?!?!) are not as simple to use as any other smart phone. If this were true why on earth is there even a need for task manager Android apps to exist? I'm not saying Android isn't a great OS. It is damn nice. What I am saying is that if there is a need for a task manager they are doing it wrong.
You bring up some good points. I don't think I was clear in my intentions and it certainly appears as though my people-groupings have raised some flags. I also didn't mean for there to be an 'elites vs honest' grouping. I apologize if that is how my post came across as it was not meant to.
I would argue that there is oftentimes (but not always) a correlation between open and hard to use. I'm going to get bashed for this but I'll say it anyway. The people who care most about 'open systems' are generally techies tinkering with them or who want access to the 'guts' to toy around. (There are exceptions to what I am about to say so take it with a grain of salt). I'm not calling out any specific software as an example here but a lot of OSS is hard to use and has absolutely terrible UI's. You almost have to be a techie to be able to use it. There are some very user-centric, pretty and usable example as well but they are few and far between.
There can be some debate about this but where is it ok to have an open system and where is closed ok? It seems no one cares so much about their TV or microwave being 'closed'. Nor do most care about their game consoles (besides a few PS3/linux folks) and portable music players. Nor their landlines, mice and electric razors. Computers are on the other end of things. At that level people do care. Personal computers at least. Not so many care about mainframes and routers and switches. People never used to care about mobile phones. Before the iPhone there wasn't much talk at all about the 'openness' of phones. We all survived through it. Where should the line be drawn? Perhaps because we are looking at mobile phones as mini computers we think they should be 'open'? Perhaps mobile phones should be in the 'other consumer electronics' pile and we shouldn't care if they are open or not? Who knows? Not me for sure.
There are a few things on the subject I can say though. As 'closed' as the iPhone and iPad are they most certainly did/do not stifle innovation for developers. In fact, I would argue the opposite. Where else have developers had a platform to create apps with a built in distribution system? The system is broken now (way too many apps, hard to find good ones, etc) but that is to be expected. It is very young and it needs to evolve. We have never had a touch-sensitive tablet to interact with at this level. They are innovative products that have sparked life into smart phones and tablets. 'Open' tablets will follow just as they did in the world of smart phones. The choice is there and it will be really interesting to see how this all pans out in the future.
@PopeRatzo, I'm not really sure why your attacking me on this. I didn't make the decision.
I agree with what you are saying on most points but definitely not all. We (anyone using Slashdot) have to continually remember to think about things from a perspective other than our own. We are all comfortable on the command line. We all have no problem diving into the control panel or preferences pane and tinkering with options to make things work the way we want them to. We are also oftentimes the creators of the programs we use. We know what the word firmware means and we know what RAM is. We will continue to create the internet and every single platform that is to come in the future. We know a lot of technical goodness and we probably enjoy it all (or else we wouldn't be on this website).
Most of us don't think about things from the other side. When I deal with 'non-techies' they don't give a crap about RAM. They don't know or care to know what OSS is. All they want is something that works and does the few things they want it to. (That touches on another huge difference between us and them: they only do a few things with hardware. We do a lot more). There is a separation between content creators and content consumers. We are generally the creators: tinkerers, programmers, web devs, net admins, etc.
What it boils down to is that what Apple has done is fine in my opinion. They made smartphones easy for non-techies. They revived the tablet industry and made something kids and non-techies 'get'. You and I don't have to use these devices. We don't have to support them. We don't have to complain about them either. If you don't like it don't buy it. There is and always will be techy products for use. Remember, we are the creators. We will make things that we want to use.
In summary, we have different wants/needs/likes than non-techies. There are products for use and products for them. No need to get angry/defensive at either sector. Just use what you want to use and enjoy it.
Totally agree. This is totally exemplified by dmesg0's comment above:
"By the way, I own nexus one, and with the right firmware (latest cyanogenmod with UV kernel), it's a great phone."
Do you really think that Apple would ever let it's users deal with something that nerdy? It's a totally different target audience. The iPhone/iPad is about simplifying things so much that the actual hardare gets out of your way. Android is more about tinkering and spec sheets and more nerdy goods. If you look at the iPad's spec sheet on the Apple webpage it doesn't even show the GPU or RAM! What nerd on earth would ever stand for buying a product with no RAM numbers given?
Different strokes for different folks. It is 100% obvious that the iPad was not created for Slashdotters. It was created for Slashdotters parents, grandparents and sisters or anyone else who has come to a Slashdotter wondering why "the internet doesn't work".
Let's start this one off by pointing out that you are comparing mobile application design to desktop application design. Straight off you are already showing your level of experience.
I'm going to have to guess that you don't develop for mobile (probably not desktop either). I would *really* like to see this magical revelation that you seem to think exists: "the OS deals with this not the application". Can you point me to the section in the Android docs that magically recreates my assets to work at different resolutions and DPI's? And what about the section that handles multiple OS versions/features for me? I'd like to read up on that one too. It sure would be a time saver. Even more, I'd like to see the one that allows me to just make one app that works on a Droid then magically run it on every other Android handset. THAT one would really turn me on.
Typical Slashdot armchair quarterbacking....
I have actually made Blackberry and Android apps in the past and am well versed in Java. I can say from experience though that it really does take more time and more resources. You can't use the same assets on a phone with nearly twice the resolution. It just doesn't work. It is true that you can target a specific handset but that is a less than optimal solution. The Android market doesn't even properly hide applications that the handset you are on can't load. It is young and needs some room for growth. It has potential, but as a developer I would like to see Google require a minimum CPU, RAM, strict button configurations (like Windows Phone 7 is doing) and maybe even some type of aspect ratio for screens. That would help out a lot in getting really great looking apps on the Android.
Actually, you are wrong. I am a developer of both.NET and iPhone apps. The gold rush is officially over on the iPhone. That is true. You need a *really* good app and great marketing to back it up to succeed right now. I have had 3 apps rejected never to see the light of day in the App Store. They were all a bit *edgy* so I'm not gonna cry about the rejection. The reality of the situation is for the most part (98+% of the time) things are pretty smooth going through the review process. 2 - 7 days wait these days.
Android is growing and that is good. Android is also growing more and more fragmented. That is not so good. Fact is most developers aren't "ake a good look at the totally open java/c++/linux combo of Android" until things change on that front. You have to look at the big picture. To make an Android app you have to contend with multiple screen sizes, multiple CPU's and multiple OS versions. It takes significantly longer to make an Android app than an iPhone app. Apple actually provides a TON of great tools, really great documentation and a very feature rich core framework. Android just doesn't have all this yet. The day will come when it will, but how fragmented will Android be then?
Man is it nice to see someone *finally* think this through before just bashing Apple's "not open" platform. The iPhone API's move fast. Each iteration adds a ton of stuff. There is just no way any third party tool could keep up. Worse than that would be people getting locked into the CS5 platform creating iPhone, Android and WinPhone7 apps all from the same codebase. It would be a huge loss to end users because they would get apps that don't use any of the features specific to each platform that set them apart.
People have to get over this crap. If you want to make an iPhone use Obj-C, C or C++. If you don't want to/can't learn them there are a TON of other platforms that could use great apps written with your tool of choice.
Newsflash: the iPhone isn't the only mobile platform. If you don't like it you have choices. Let your dollars do the talking.
Slashdot Mirror
WTF? Cydia runs on the iPhone man. And the jailbreak (depending on which one you choose) is a one click operation from Mac or Win.
Just out of curiosity, have you downloaded android OS, modified it and installed it on your incredible? What have you done on your incredible that can't be done on the iPhone due to it being open? Not trying to flame here, Im just curious...
Ummmm....they actually ARE banning all dev environments other than .NET (silverlight) on WinPhone 7.
The mere fact that the iPhone/iPod/iPad are a success is a pretty damn good indicator of the following: - People (Consumers. The 99.999% of actual humans on earth that aren't geeky ass, linux using, slashdot reading nerds) don't give a flying fuck about 'open' platforms nor could they even define the word and how it relates to their phone/mp3 player. - Flash must not be THAT important if these devices have done so well without them. The fact is that if you really think you need to have an 'open' product choose one with your dollar bills and stop trolling the internet looking for Apple stories to bitch about. If you don't care about your devices being open then buy the device that you like best and enjoy it.
So....what you are saying here is that you don't want native applications anymore. Instead of native Windows apps and native Mac apps and native Linux apps you would rather just have everything be made in Adobe AIR? Thank fucking god you aren't the one making decisions that matter....
Did you take the time to read what I was replying to? I'll let you go ahead and do that now. Now that you read it lets look at a quote from it: "What I *do* have a problem though, is when a device I *own* won't let me install a piece of software that *I* want to install." Now read my reply again, slowly this time. Then read your totally-missed-the-point reply.
I guess you dont own a TV or microwave either. The fact that a device allows or disallows you to install software is a dying '90's Linux fanboy anecdote. There are embedded systems all over the place that are fully closed systems with no access for you to install software on it and I'm gonna venture a guess that you own a few of them.
So....if people don't share your exact opinions, wants and needs they become stupid? Sounds like you may need a few minutes in front of a mirror my friend.
Really? Are you fucking serious? You are going to change your demographic to get closer to a monopolistic market share? I'm afraid it doesn't work like that mr. IT Ninja.
I didnt mean buy 2 children. lol. 2 WePads for everyone!
True that. I'll bet dollars to donuts the WePad doesn't get 120,000 pre orders in it's first day and 550,000 sales in it's first week. In fact, if it does I'll eat my first born child and buy 2 for every slashdotter.
I forgot to mention one really important aspect of Macbooks: they don't lose 1/2 their value the day you buy them. This will come as a shock to many but you can actually resell a Macbook a year or 3 after buying it and you won't end up selling an $1800 laptop for $300 like you would with a PC.
They may be a bit overpriced but not to the level many slashdotters would have you believe. They are solid as a rock and the batteries are better than any other notebook I have ever had as is the screen. Slashdotters will be quick to send me a link to a dell or acer laptop with similar specs that is a bit cheaper but in reality you get what you pay for. The unibody frame is super solid and you can be 100% certain all the hardware will work together perfectly. Not to mention you get 2 GPU's the slick magnet power cord adapter that has saved my ass on more than one occasion and an attention to detail that you won't find anywhere else.
Not to knock your comment or anything but if modern Android phones (as opposed to ancient ones ?!?!) are not as simple to use as any other smart phone. If this were true why on earth is there even a need for task manager Android apps to exist? I'm not saying Android isn't a great OS. It is damn nice. What I am saying is that if there is a need for a task manager they are doing it wrong.
You bring up some good points. I don't think I was clear in my intentions and it certainly appears as though my people-groupings have raised some flags. I also didn't mean for there to be an 'elites vs honest' grouping. I apologize if that is how my post came across as it was not meant to. I would argue that there is oftentimes (but not always) a correlation between open and hard to use. I'm going to get bashed for this but I'll say it anyway. The people who care most about 'open systems' are generally techies tinkering with them or who want access to the 'guts' to toy around. (There are exceptions to what I am about to say so take it with a grain of salt). I'm not calling out any specific software as an example here but a lot of OSS is hard to use and has absolutely terrible UI's. You almost have to be a techie to be able to use it. There are some very user-centric, pretty and usable example as well but they are few and far between. There can be some debate about this but where is it ok to have an open system and where is closed ok? It seems no one cares so much about their TV or microwave being 'closed'. Nor do most care about their game consoles (besides a few PS3/linux folks) and portable music players. Nor their landlines, mice and electric razors. Computers are on the other end of things. At that level people do care. Personal computers at least. Not so many care about mainframes and routers and switches. People never used to care about mobile phones. Before the iPhone there wasn't much talk at all about the 'openness' of phones. We all survived through it. Where should the line be drawn? Perhaps because we are looking at mobile phones as mini computers we think they should be 'open'? Perhaps mobile phones should be in the 'other consumer electronics' pile and we shouldn't care if they are open or not? Who knows? Not me for sure. There are a few things on the subject I can say though. As 'closed' as the iPhone and iPad are they most certainly did/do not stifle innovation for developers. In fact, I would argue the opposite. Where else have developers had a platform to create apps with a built in distribution system? The system is broken now (way too many apps, hard to find good ones, etc) but that is to be expected. It is very young and it needs to evolve. We have never had a touch-sensitive tablet to interact with at this level. They are innovative products that have sparked life into smart phones and tablets. 'Open' tablets will follow just as they did in the world of smart phones. The choice is there and it will be really interesting to see how this all pans out in the future.
Ummm...weren't we talking about the iPad/iPhone here?
@PopeRatzo, I'm not really sure why your attacking me on this. I didn't make the decision. I agree with what you are saying on most points but definitely not all. We (anyone using Slashdot) have to continually remember to think about things from a perspective other than our own. We are all comfortable on the command line. We all have no problem diving into the control panel or preferences pane and tinkering with options to make things work the way we want them to. We are also oftentimes the creators of the programs we use. We know what the word firmware means and we know what RAM is. We will continue to create the internet and every single platform that is to come in the future. We know a lot of technical goodness and we probably enjoy it all (or else we wouldn't be on this website). Most of us don't think about things from the other side. When I deal with 'non-techies' they don't give a crap about RAM. They don't know or care to know what OSS is. All they want is something that works and does the few things they want it to. (That touches on another huge difference between us and them: they only do a few things with hardware. We do a lot more). There is a separation between content creators and content consumers. We are generally the creators: tinkerers, programmers, web devs, net admins, etc. What it boils down to is that what Apple has done is fine in my opinion. They made smartphones easy for non-techies. They revived the tablet industry and made something kids and non-techies 'get'. You and I don't have to use these devices. We don't have to support them. We don't have to complain about them either. If you don't like it don't buy it. There is and always will be techy products for use. Remember, we are the creators. We will make things that we want to use. In summary, we have different wants/needs/likes than non-techies. There are products for use and products for them. No need to get angry/defensive at either sector. Just use what you want to use and enjoy it.
Totally agree. This is totally exemplified by dmesg0's comment above: "By the way, I own nexus one, and with the right firmware (latest cyanogenmod with UV kernel), it's a great phone." Do you really think that Apple would ever let it's users deal with something that nerdy? It's a totally different target audience. The iPhone/iPad is about simplifying things so much that the actual hardare gets out of your way. Android is more about tinkering and spec sheets and more nerdy goods. If you look at the iPad's spec sheet on the Apple webpage it doesn't even show the GPU or RAM! What nerd on earth would ever stand for buying a product with no RAM numbers given? Different strokes for different folks. It is 100% obvious that the iPad was not created for Slashdotters. It was created for Slashdotters parents, grandparents and sisters or anyone else who has come to a Slashdotter wondering why "the internet doesn't work".
Let's start this one off by pointing out that you are comparing mobile application design to desktop application design. Straight off you are already showing your level of experience. I'm going to have to guess that you don't develop for mobile (probably not desktop either). I would *really* like to see this magical revelation that you seem to think exists: "the OS deals with this not the application". Can you point me to the section in the Android docs that magically recreates my assets to work at different resolutions and DPI's? And what about the section that handles multiple OS versions/features for me? I'd like to read up on that one too. It sure would be a time saver. Even more, I'd like to see the one that allows me to just make one app that works on a Droid then magically run it on every other Android handset. THAT one would really turn me on. Typical Slashdot armchair quarterbacking....
I have actually made Blackberry and Android apps in the past and am well versed in Java. I can say from experience though that it really does take more time and more resources. You can't use the same assets on a phone with nearly twice the resolution. It just doesn't work. It is true that you can target a specific handset but that is a less than optimal solution. The Android market doesn't even properly hide applications that the handset you are on can't load. It is young and needs some room for growth. It has potential, but as a developer I would like to see Google require a minimum CPU, RAM, strict button configurations (like Windows Phone 7 is doing) and maybe even some type of aspect ratio for screens. That would help out a lot in getting really great looking apps on the Android.
Actually, you are wrong. I am a developer of both .NET and iPhone apps. The gold rush is officially over on the iPhone. That is true. You need a *really* good app and great marketing to back it up to succeed right now. I have had 3 apps rejected never to see the light of day in the App Store. They were all a bit *edgy* so I'm not gonna cry about the rejection. The reality of the situation is for the most part (98+% of the time) things are pretty smooth going through the review process. 2 - 7 days wait these days.
Android is growing and that is good. Android is also growing more and more fragmented. That is not so good. Fact is most developers aren't "ake a good look at the totally open java/c++/linux combo of Android" until things change on that front. You have to look at the big picture. To make an Android app you have to contend with multiple screen sizes, multiple CPU's and multiple OS versions. It takes significantly longer to make an Android app than an iPhone app. Apple actually provides a TON of great tools, really great documentation and a very feature rich core framework. Android just doesn't have all this yet. The day will come when it will, but how fragmented will Android be then?
Man is it nice to see someone *finally* think this through before just bashing Apple's "not open" platform. The iPhone API's move fast. Each iteration adds a ton of stuff. There is just no way any third party tool could keep up. Worse than that would be people getting locked into the CS5 platform creating iPhone, Android and WinPhone7 apps all from the same codebase. It would be a huge loss to end users because they would get apps that don't use any of the features specific to each platform that set them apart. People have to get over this crap. If you want to make an iPhone use Obj-C, C or C++. If you don't want to/can't learn them there are a TON of other platforms that could use great apps written with your tool of choice. Newsflash: the iPhone isn't the only mobile platform. If you don't like it you have choices. Let your dollars do the talking.