Great comment. Thank you. And agreed...I've heard of these computer programmer people. From what I understand, an exhaustive software design is made using the waterfall method and then the programmer techs the design doc that is created all the way down to the method-level and they implement the methods prescribed.....In my 10 years in the industry, I've yet to see that. If it happens at all, they stuff must be the stuff that gets outsourced to India or wherever. Regardless, it sounds like a hideous way to make software...
Honestly, this kind of confuses me as well. I think it's due to the fact that many realms of programming-shops, such as startups and commercial software producers don't get much incentive for diversity other than HR bitching at you and the occassional bemoaning from feminist groups. It is mostly in the govt contractor world that you see those pushes. I strongly suspect that among contractors, the gap still exists and is maybe slightly bigger than the average mentioned. But much better than this 72%.
...Honestly, I'm pretty sure you can in the world of programming. At most, it's just a matter of knowing how to negotiate. If you have 4 years experience, take off for two years. You should be able to get hired at the same rate as anyone new to a company with 4 years experience; meaning, what you were making before + market adjustment for demand of labor + cost of living increases over those two years.
You are imagining an infinite supply of labor. That many female programmers do not exist. Women do not major in CS. They do not become programmers. If they can manage to hire women at 72 cents on the dollar, then wonderful, but if they can't, then there's work to be done, and every moment that work isn't done, they are losing potential profits. So they hire men for a dollar.
Because that many female programmers don't exist. You are imagining an infinite supply of labor. There are almost no women majoring in CS, so there are very few female programmers available to hire.
That was his point. He was playing the part of a person so conservative that they would think that merely allowing a woman to wear shoes is wildly progressive.
It's not like there is a mass of unemployed female programmers lying around. They don't exist. The industry employs all that they can. The only women in my 5 years of college, among the nearly 1000 classmates, the only women I encountered were foreign exchange students and continuing education women over 35.
It isn't one of these 77 cents on the dollar studies. They did factor for all of that, it even says so in the summary. That's why over all professions, they concluded 94 cents on the dollar. But the study found specifically that female computer programmers get 72 cents on male programmers' dollar.
The quality of/. commenters has gone down as a lot of the insightful users fled. But yeah, many of the software realms have some serious social/misogyny issues. I advise female programmers to strongly consider jobs either with the government or contracting for the government. You may end up working with a whole bunch of people who are older than you, married with families, but there's a lot of effort to cut out social drama, and just have everyone focus on getting the job done.
How many women programmers do you know? In my school, the only women in CS classes were foreign exchange students or continuing education women older than 35. My intro classes had student sizes well over 100 and that was still true. Companies very possibly would hire many more female programmers, but there is a labor shortage of them.
In the field of computer programming, there is a massive shortage of female labor (anecdotally, the only women in my 5 years of college CS classes were foreign exchange students or women doing continuing education, and past their mid-30s, this was awhile ago, but I don't believe it has changed much at all). So it is impossible to hire enough women to drive men out of the industry.
The things you tell him to do are not things that are important to him. Kids that age start to think you are constantly telling him what to do because you are on a power-trip. Presuming the requests you make of him are reasonable, the trick (and it is really tricky) is to show him how him not doing the things you ask of him directly effect the household; put additional burdens on you, making your life more miserable, and then get him to imagine how he would feel in your position. Also, you're gonna wanna start helping him to understand how constant video games and TV is a great way to have trouble getting girls....Unless he manages to get through puberty without getting super-gross like God intended. If that happens, you're screwed.
If you constantly strive to care, and put in the time and effort with your kids, then things generally calm down somewhere between age 19 and 24. Good luck to ya. We're all in this together!
It would basically become another war between the shitwolves vs the social-justice advocates. Which side can post to the bot more in order to weigh the scales. It's not like MS bothered to write something that had the ability to consider logic and moral arguments...Because that would actually be something cool, and that's not generally how Microsoft rolls.
Yeah, that icon made me do a double-take. Hey, Whipslash, please take note, the old school nerds have a lot of love for DEC. Misapplying their logo feels really weird.
You are correct in that there wasn't much of an "app" as Apple wants you to think of it. But "applications" predates "app" by decades; it is synonymous with "program". The point is, there were almost none. Keep in mind, this was EIGHT YEARS after the development of Windows CE, which the phone of the time was based upon. That entire time, MS happily released the SDK to allow programs written for it. Appstore or no, no-one bothered to write for it, and that was an unfortunate clash to the realm of Windows Desktops, and the newly growing world of iPhone Apps.
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Great comment. Thank you. And agreed...I've heard of these computer programmer people. From what I understand, an exhaustive software design is made using the waterfall method and then the programmer techs the design doc that is created all the way down to the method-level and they implement the methods prescribed.....In my 10 years in the industry, I've yet to see that. If it happens at all, they stuff must be the stuff that gets outsourced to India or wherever. Regardless, it sounds like a hideous way to make software...
NO, you shut up right now! We're not going back to those dark days of kLoCs!!
Honestly, this kind of confuses me as well. I think it's due to the fact that many realms of programming-shops, such as startups and commercial software producers don't get much incentive for diversity other than HR bitching at you and the occassional bemoaning from feminist groups. It is mostly in the govt contractor world that you see those pushes. I strongly suspect that among contractors, the gap still exists and is maybe slightly bigger than the average mentioned. But much better than this 72%.
...Honestly, I'm pretty sure you can in the world of programming. At most, it's just a matter of knowing how to negotiate. If you have 4 years experience, take off for two years. You should be able to get hired at the same rate as anyone new to a company with 4 years experience; meaning, what you were making before + market adjustment for demand of labor + cost of living increases over those two years.
You are imagining an infinite supply of labor. That many female programmers do not exist. Women do not major in CS. They do not become programmers. If they can manage to hire women at 72 cents on the dollar, then wonderful, but if they can't, then there's work to be done, and every moment that work isn't done, they are losing potential profits. So they hire men for a dollar.
Because that many female programmers don't exist. You are imagining an infinite supply of labor. There are almost no women majoring in CS, so there are very few female programmers available to hire.
Seriously, that gets old SO FAST.
They meant the gender gap is "76 cents for every dollar". Not "the gender gap is 76 cents" for every dollar. Don't get stuck up on semantics.
That was his point. He was playing the part of a person so conservative that they would think that merely allowing a woman to wear shoes is wildly progressive.
It's not like there is a mass of unemployed female programmers lying around. They don't exist. The industry employs all that they can. The only women in my 5 years of college, among the nearly 1000 classmates, the only women I encountered were foreign exchange students and continuing education women over 35.
They should've said, "the commonly mentioned gap". But the study itself finds that the corrected number is more like 94 cents on the dollar.
It isn't one of these 77 cents on the dollar studies. They did factor for all of that, it even says so in the summary. That's why over all professions, they concluded 94 cents on the dollar. But the study found specifically that female computer programmers get 72 cents on male programmers' dollar.
The quality of /. commenters has gone down as a lot of the insightful users fled. But yeah, many of the software realms have some serious social/misogyny issues. I advise female programmers to strongly consider jobs either with the government or contracting for the government. You may end up working with a whole bunch of people who are older than you, married with families, but there's a lot of effort to cut out social drama, and just have everyone focus on getting the job done.
How many women programmers do you know? In my school, the only women in CS classes were foreign exchange students or continuing education women older than 35. My intro classes had student sizes well over 100 and that was still true. Companies very possibly would hire many more female programmers, but there is a labor shortage of them.
This survey accounts for time taken off. That's why overall professions, women are making %94. It's just the programmer world that is bad.
In the field of computer programming, there is a massive shortage of female labor (anecdotally, the only women in my 5 years of college CS classes were foreign exchange students or women doing continuing education, and past their mid-30s, this was awhile ago, but I don't believe it has changed much at all). So it is impossible to hire enough women to drive men out of the industry.
The survey accounts for exactly that.
Gr8 b8 m8, I r8 8/8.
But the teenage mind isn't just shaped by peers. It's shaped by parents and teachers and the media that they find themselves drawn to.
If you constantly strive to care, and put in the time and effort with your kids, then things generally calm down somewhere between age 19 and 24. Good luck to ya. We're all in this together!
It would basically become another war between the shitwolves vs the social-justice advocates. Which side can post to the bot more in order to weigh the scales. It's not like MS bothered to write something that had the ability to consider logic and moral arguments...Because that would actually be something cool, and that's not generally how Microsoft rolls.
Exactly; made mine too. This is the funniest story I've seen on /. in quite awhile.
Yes. It had a pocket version of MS Outlook.
Yeah, that icon made me do a double-take. Hey, Whipslash, please take note, the old school nerds have a lot of love for DEC. Misapplying their logo feels really weird.
You are correct in that there wasn't much of an "app" as Apple wants you to think of it. But "applications" predates "app" by decades; it is synonymous with "program". The point is, there were almost none. Keep in mind, this was EIGHT YEARS after the development of Windows CE, which the phone of the time was based upon. That entire time, MS happily released the SDK to allow programs written for it. Appstore or no, no-one bothered to write for it, and that was an unfortunate clash to the realm of Windows Desktops, and the newly growing world of iPhone Apps.