God, to man: I am your father.
Man: NOOOOOOOOOOOO!
This is what happens when man realizes he was born into a prison for his thoughts, for his actions, for his love. Or, perhaps worse, he embraces the thought, in which case he is a proven slave, unbeknownst to himself.
You seem to think that I think consciousness is defined by being aware of a shared reality.
Wrong. I think reality is defined by a single consciousness, aware of its own ability to contemplate. I agree with your point of view.
Given that point of view, that in this universe you have direct evidence of only one consciousness, you should be careful of the assumptions you make of the others -- even if they may be figments of your potentially powerful imagination.
As for your final thought, as a kid I used to ponder the idea that my entire life was simply someone else's dream, and that when that someone awoke, my existence would terminate, only for another dream to be lived at some later time. I think I was six when that idea scared the bejeezus out of me. Since, I have spent at least part of my time figuring out ways to explain why life is what it is. It keeps me entertained...
Freedom is what makes the consciousness, therefore all you have done is expounded on the definition of consciousness, the origin of which I still seek.
Without the freedom of thought to be aware of one's own consciousness, then can one presume that one is actually conscious? Without the ability to freely contemplate even the simplest of ideas, how is one conscious?
And, um, troll? It was a questioned aimed to stimulate conversation -- and I think I accomplished that quite well. Isn't that the idea of this comment forum?
I believe the most incomprehensible thing about the world is that a biological organism can know about itself. How did consciousness develop? Mr. Einstein?
I am an employee of the state, and the government of Georgia is cheap! That, and our old-as-creation computers give us hell at random intervals, and let me tell you, they don't discriminate based on the days of the week.
The problem with that is that I believe "classic" movies, no matter how good they were in their time, are grossly inferior to movies of today. A good movie, to me, looks real on screen. Just because a movie has the best story doesn't mean it is the best movie; cinematography is a huge part of a movie's quality. That said, I won't challenge you on the greatness of any movie's story.
Still, given all of that, yes, the Matrix, LOTR, and The Shawshank Redemption round out my top five. American Beauty and Office Space are probably next on the list, though I haven't given it a lot of thought. Simply stated, I judge movies by two things: cohesiveness and entertainment value. That is, how well does the movie hold together, and how glad am I to have seen the movie after it's over (and how likely am I to want to see it again and again).
Two arguments.
1. If you want a really racist argument, but one that I would never actually push as being legitimate, you'd have to ask about how easily minds are to convince of the truth. Those who will fall for anything are more likely to be set free, because they will see the truth more quickly. Then again, the machines could turn them more easily, so perhaps not. Like I said, I would never push this argument as legitimate, because it ultimately falls through. I just thought I'd mention it before someone else did...
2. Much more legitimate: If the machines just started to annihilate everything when they took over, then those most likely to survive (ancestors of Zion) would be those less likely to be involved with "Zero-One" (the machine nation, see AniMatrix) -- in other words, less technologically advanced countries, which unfortunately leaves a lot of Africa and South America. This could explain why Tank and Dozer were brothers.:-)
I apologize for my US-centrism. Of course, in the story I submitted, the $42.5 million that Reloaded took in through Thursday was only domestic (in America only), so the money part of the story was US-centric to begin with.
Either way, you make a good point. Parents in America are such prudes. I'll be glad when they start trying to teach their kids how the world works so we can be useful again instead of holding them back from the world as long as possible.
On that note, I think American adults have a naturally developed, collective inferiority complex -- they believe that the next generation is always more capable than the last, therefore they must keep the young'ins shielded as long as possible in order to preserve what power over the world they do have. This explains so much...
You've obviously misinterpreted me. I didn't declare your opinions for you. Nice assumption, though.
And, so you know, the Wachowskis wrote the stories to all three films long before the script for the first one was finalized. The entire thing is the story as they saw it years ago. To suggest that Reloaded has lost some of the original's flavor due to the time gap is to completely ignore the fact that the trilogy was essentially complete before the first film was made.
p.s.-- Easy on the sarcasm. It's difficult enough to find quality/. comments without it.
This is my attempt at an on-topic conversation. My source: Box Office Mojo.
As of this afternoon, estimates are that Reloaded has taken in about $73.7 million ($42.5 through Thursday, $31.2 on Friday). On a typical opening weekend, a movie will gross just less than three times what it made on Friday for the three-day weekend, suggesting that Reloaded will probably take in about $90 million for Friday-Sunday, or it could barely squeak by Harry Potter for second place behind Spider-Man's $114 million. Of course, there is no formula, and The Matrix could easily see a huge flux of ticket sales on Saturday and Sunday, and it could shoot into the $100-110 million range for the weekend.
To put all that into perspective, keep in mind that teens under 17 can't get in to see the movie without an accompanying adult -- in any case, there is no doubt that Reloaded has already stormed past Hannibal's $58.0 million record for R-rated films. Some also suggest that, despite X2's decline in ticket sales this week, there will also probably be several tickets purchased for X-Men 2 and other films by crafty kids willing to risk sneaking into The Matrix Reloaded -- but those numbers are negligible.
Finally, a few things are certain. One, that Reloaded will join Spider-Man as the only other film to gross $100 million before the end of its third day in release. Two, that Reloaded holds the record for the largest Thursday gross ever. Three, that Reloaded will be the highest-grossing R-rated film of all time, perhaps even by this time next week! (It has to be Saving Privat Ryan's $216.3 million.
Thinking on a biological level, this is like saying every decision you have ever made and will ever make are only effects of causes. Chaos, like being The One, is part of the program, a perceived effect of the nature of causality.
Also, if pop-culture epic stories are supposed to summarize some glaring aspect of society as it exists at that time, as they all do, then The Matrix is pointing out to future generations our focus on just asking "Why?"
Dante's The Divine Commedy encouraged not simply faith, but blind faith -- a quest for understanding God's righteousness without understanding God's justice. The Wachowskis' The Matrix, on the other hand, encourages faith in self alone -- a quest for only provable truth and a healthy, skeptical mind to question that which can not be objectively understood.
The societies of classic literature such as Dante's epic poem were built on solid foundations -- there is God's truth and no other; any violation earns damnation. Thus, The Matrix also highlights our growing secularism or even atheism.
I'm going around my ass to get to this, but the point is simple: morality is as subjective as belief in God. The Wachowskis probably like "teaching" people this version of toleration, as well as their version of responsibility: "I can only show you the door; you're the one who has to walk through it."
No it didn't. It reminded us that we need not take the "truth" for granted if we can not be absolutely sure of it.
"The Matrix can not tell you who you are."
"But an oracle can?"
"That's different."
One purpose of the second movie was to force Neo (therefore us) to reconsider that thought -- maybe the Matrix can tell us who we are. Obviously, Neo seems convinced by everything the Architect, Oracle, Agent Smith, and everyone else has told him. He's still following the logic that he learned to use within the Matrix. But he's also proven to be unique in that he does not do what he is "programmed" to do. He is making his own decisions. If what the Architect said was effectively true, then Neo's purpose is to be the anomaly of anomalies -- to trule be "The One" to bring down the Matrix.
Of course, there is a problem: how do you save the billions of humans hardwired to the Matrix?
The first time you saw the first film, you were just as much baffled by such talk as "she got out" (simply put, but the scene itself was baffling) and "...a prison for your mind" or "any software still hardwired to the system..." (no one knew what the hell Morpheus was talking about until they saw the film for the second time)...
Cut the Wachowskis some slack. You didn't get the first Matrix the first time, and Reloaded is every bit as much fun as the first. The simple dialog was still there, and this one was a lot funnier too! "WHERE'S MY PUS--..." Nice.;-)
Before I say anything, you have to understand that "grievances" with anything relating to The Matrix would barely register as a speck of dust in a pile of sand for any other film. That said, my barely worthy complaints regard:
1. The Orgy Scene 2. The Twins 3. Neo and Trinity
1. This is my biggest and only real complaint about the movie. This scene lasted much too long. At first, I could not even imagine a purpose for the scene, but someone in this comment forum has carelessly yet effectively explained how the scene's purpose was to illustrate the humans' love for real life. When humanity itself is threatened and you are the occupants of the last human city, you can bet that the primal instincts are going to come out and play. Still, I think the scene could have been significantly shortened. (Then again, there's no telling whose faces we might see if we look slowly and carefully through the scene when the DVD is released.)
2. I'm not sure if I am disappointed or relieved, but I feel like the Twins were showcased more in the trailers than the movie warranted. Or perhaps the point was to lead us to believe that their role was more prominent than it is in order to surprise us with Agent Smith, whose scenes surpassed everything I had imagined prior to seeing the film. Either way, I feel like they could have done more or played a role closer to the center of the plot, but as things are, they should still be around for the third installment...
3. Okay, this is just the teenage boy in me, and maybe this can be an outtake, a spoof, or something else later, but why don't Neo and Trinity "play" around in the Construct? Can you imagine the limits they could reach with the ability to program various skills, ideas, locales into their minds? The possibilities are endless! Matrix p0rn! (Okay, the end.)
Finally, it must be said that the visual effects were awesome, Rob Dougan's and Juno Factor's music was killer, and, well, there isn't enough to be said about the story. Great movie. I plan to see it several times more... before I turn 21 in July.
You're right, I suppose, but I wouldn't say there was no messing with Neo's mind. The plot was consistent with surprises (from Neo's point of view) -- upgrades, Agent Smith(s), the Twins, Super Mario Bros 2-style doors (hah), and... well, you know what happened in the last half hour. His reality was torn to bits when his mind was "freed" in the first film. Now his reality on top of his dream has been torn again.
Let's put it this way: If the first movie's goal was to convince Neo, as Trinity stated, "that the Matrix can not tell you who you are", then the second movie's goal was to convince Neo to reconsider that.
And let's not forget that, by the end of the film, they were messing with Morpheus' head and thus our heads, not to mention Neo's final bit of action at the end of the movie...
Oh yeah, they're still messing with our heads. And you'd better bet that in order for Revolutions to be successful, they're going to have to wrap up this chapter of the Matrix story while leaving us as flabbergasted as before.
On that note, the review that I haven't finished yet ends with these words (for now):
The original was a 10.0 -- I had seen nothing better and I expect nothing better. Reloaded takes us deeper down the rabbit hole and is, in nearly every respect, a better movie than the first. However, two things detract from the sequel's perfection: (1) it's a sequel, thus it can not stand alone; (2) I can imagine no reason why the orgy scene was so long or even why it was included! Those things, and I'm not sure, but I think I wanted to see more of the Twins than I did. When all is said and done, Reloaded gets a 9.7.
(And for the record, on my movie-review scale, only the two Lord of the Rings films and The Shawshank Redemption have come close to The Matrix -- it is incredibly difficult to get a 9, as it is the same as 4.5 out of 5 stars.)
Simply stated, the orgy scene should have focused much more only on Neo and Trinity, and it should have been about three minutes shorter. Still, I'd guess that the Wachowskis' goal was to show the primal nature of Zion's inhabitants, and, well, mission accomplished. I just don't think they needed four-and-a-half minutes to do it. (Indeed, the fact that they gathered in a palace of rock and cheered at Morpheus, their faithful "leader" [demagogue], said enough to me about their culture.
Andy, Larry? Feel free to explain yourselves. I'm certain that the Slashdot crowd would love your input...
To be fair to myself, I posted the article for submission on the 16th. Not really early by any means, but it took Slashdot over twelve hours to post the article as-is. I wonder what caused the delay...
I only posted it because I read of the "holiday" on the UN web site, and I realized that I knew nothing about it, so I figured most Americans didn't. In any case, I acknowleged that the story was late getting to the public, but at least we might be prepared next year.
(And let's not underestimate the overshadowing effect of E3 -- we Americans seem to like our games, though I wouldn't consider myself part of that group.)
Slashdot Mirror
Man: NOOOOOOOOOOOO!
This is what happens when man realizes he was born into a prison for his thoughts, for his actions, for his love. Or, perhaps worse, he embraces the thought, in which case he is a proven slave, unbeknownst to himself.
Wrong. I think reality is defined by a single consciousness, aware of its own ability to contemplate. I agree with your point of view.
Given that point of view, that in this universe you have direct evidence of only one consciousness, you should be careful of the assumptions you make of the others -- even if they may be figments of your potentially powerful imagination.
As for your final thought, as a kid I used to ponder the idea that my entire life was simply someone else's dream, and that when that someone awoke, my existence would terminate, only for another dream to be lived at some later time. I think I was six when that idea scared the bejeezus out of me. Since, I have spent at least part of my time figuring out ways to explain why life is what it is. It keeps me entertained...
Wow, you completely ignored my question and referred to something with which I directly disagreed in my previous statement. So, again, Mr. Einstein?
Without the freedom of thought to be aware of one's own consciousness, then can one presume that one is actually conscious? Without the ability to freely contemplate even the simplest of ideas, how is one conscious?
And, um, troll? It was a questioned aimed to stimulate conversation -- and I think I accomplished that quite well. Isn't that the idea of this comment forum?
You think I'm a creationist?! I think you're the first person ever to call me something even remotely similar to something like that...
I don't do it without checking. I just don't care about people who refuse to use a decent browser.
I believe the most incomprehensible thing about the world is that a biological organism can know about itself. How did consciousness develop? Mr. Einstein?
Lawrence: No. No, man. Shit, no man. I believe you'd get your ass kicked saying something like that.
I am an employee of the state, and the government of Georgia is cheap! That, and our old-as-creation computers give us hell at random intervals, and let me tell you, they don't discriminate based on the days of the week.
According to Georgia law, an "orgy" is three shoeless people in a closed room. (It is the shoes!)
Still, given all of that, yes, the Matrix, LOTR, and The Shawshank Redemption round out my top five. American Beauty and Office Space are probably next on the list, though I haven't given it a lot of thought. Simply stated, I judge movies by two things: cohesiveness and entertainment value. That is, how well does the movie hold together, and how glad am I to have seen the movie after it's over (and how likely am I to want to see it again and again).
Two arguments. 1. If you want a really racist argument, but one that I would never actually push as being legitimate, you'd have to ask about how easily minds are to convince of the truth. Those who will fall for anything are more likely to be set free, because they will see the truth more quickly. Then again, the machines could turn them more easily, so perhaps not. Like I said, I would never push this argument as legitimate, because it ultimately falls through. I just thought I'd mention it before someone else did... 2. Much more legitimate: If the machines just started to annihilate everything when they took over, then those most likely to survive (ancestors of Zion) would be those less likely to be involved with "Zero-One" (the machine nation, see AniMatrix) -- in other words, less technologically advanced countries, which unfortunately leaves a lot of Africa and South America. This could explain why Tank and Dozer were brothers. :-)
Either way, you make a good point. Parents in America are such prudes. I'll be glad when they start trying to teach their kids how the world works so we can be useful again instead of holding them back from the world as long as possible.
On that note, I think American adults have a naturally developed, collective inferiority complex -- they believe that the next generation is always more capable than the last, therefore they must keep the young'ins shielded as long as possible in order to preserve what power over the world they do have. This explains so much...
And, so you know, the Wachowskis wrote the stories to all three films long before the script for the first one was finalized. The entire thing is the story as they saw it years ago. To suggest that Reloaded has lost some of the original's flavor due to the time gap is to completely ignore the fact that the trilogy was essentially complete before the first film was made.
p.s.-- Easy on the sarcasm. It's difficult enough to find quality /. comments without it.
As of this afternoon, estimates are that Reloaded has taken in about $73.7 million ($42.5 through Thursday, $31.2 on Friday). On a typical opening weekend, a movie will gross just less than three times what it made on Friday for the three-day weekend, suggesting that Reloaded will probably take in about $90 million for Friday-Sunday, or it could barely squeak by Harry Potter for second place behind Spider-Man's $114 million. Of course, there is no formula, and The Matrix could easily see a huge flux of ticket sales on Saturday and Sunday, and it could shoot into the $100-110 million range for the weekend.
To put all that into perspective, keep in mind that teens under 17 can't get in to see the movie without an accompanying adult -- in any case, there is no doubt that Reloaded has already stormed past Hannibal's $58.0 million record for R-rated films. Some also suggest that, despite X2's decline in ticket sales this week, there will also probably be several tickets purchased for X-Men 2 and other films by crafty kids willing to risk sneaking into The Matrix Reloaded -- but those numbers are negligible.
Finally, a few things are certain. One, that Reloaded will join Spider-Man as the only other film to gross $100 million before the end of its third day in release. Two, that Reloaded holds the record for the largest Thursday gross ever. Three, that Reloaded will be the highest-grossing R-rated film of all time, perhaps even by this time next week! (It has to be Saving Privat Ryan's $216.3 million.
Also, if pop-culture epic stories are supposed to summarize some glaring aspect of society as it exists at that time, as they all do, then The Matrix is pointing out to future generations our focus on just asking "Why?"
Dante's The Divine Commedy encouraged not simply faith, but blind faith -- a quest for understanding God's righteousness without understanding God's justice. The Wachowskis' The Matrix, on the other hand, encourages faith in self alone -- a quest for only provable truth and a healthy, skeptical mind to question that which can not be objectively understood.
The societies of classic literature such as Dante's epic poem were built on solid foundations -- there is God's truth and no other; any violation earns damnation. Thus, The Matrix also highlights our growing secularism or even atheism.
I'm going around my ass to get to this, but the point is simple: morality is as subjective as belief in God. The Wachowskis probably like "teaching" people this version of toleration, as well as their version of responsibility: "I can only show you the door; you're the one who has to walk through it."
Anyway, sorry for rambling. I like this stuff.
"The Matrix can not tell you who you are."
"But an oracle can?"
"That's different."
One purpose of the second movie was to force Neo (therefore us) to reconsider that thought -- maybe the Matrix can tell us who we are. Obviously, Neo seems convinced by everything the Architect, Oracle, Agent Smith, and everyone else has told him. He's still following the logic that he learned to use within the Matrix. But he's also proven to be unique in that he does not do what he is "programmed" to do. He is making his own decisions. If what the Architect said was effectively true, then Neo's purpose is to be the anomaly of anomalies -- to trule be "The One" to bring down the Matrix.
Of course, there is a problem: how do you save the billions of humans hardwired to the Matrix?
Cut the Wachowskis some slack. You didn't get the first Matrix the first time, and Reloaded is every bit as much fun as the first. The simple dialog was still there, and this one was a lot funnier too! "WHERE'S MY PUS--..." Nice. ;-)
1. The Orgy Scene
2. The Twins
3. Neo and Trinity
1. This is my biggest and only real complaint about the movie. This scene lasted much too long. At first, I could not even imagine a purpose for the scene, but someone in this comment forum has carelessly yet effectively explained how the scene's purpose was to illustrate the humans' love for real life. When humanity itself is threatened and you are the occupants of the last human city, you can bet that the primal instincts are going to come out and play. Still, I think the scene could have been significantly shortened. (Then again, there's no telling whose faces we might see if we look slowly and carefully through the scene when the DVD is released.)
2. I'm not sure if I am disappointed or relieved, but I feel like the Twins were showcased more in the trailers than the movie warranted. Or perhaps the point was to lead us to believe that their role was more prominent than it is in order to surprise us with Agent Smith, whose scenes surpassed everything I had imagined prior to seeing the film. Either way, I feel like they could have done more or played a role closer to the center of the plot, but as things are, they should still be around for the third installment...
3. Okay, this is just the teenage boy in me, and maybe this can be an outtake, a spoof, or something else later, but why don't Neo and Trinity "play" around in the Construct? Can you imagine the limits they could reach with the ability to program various skills, ideas, locales into their minds? The possibilities are endless! Matrix p0rn! (Okay, the end.)
Finally, it must be said that the visual effects were awesome, Rob Dougan's and Juno Factor's music was killer, and, well, there isn't enough to be said about the story. Great movie. I plan to see it several times more ... before I turn 21 in July.
Have you been living in a dream world?!
Let's put it this way: If the first movie's goal was to convince Neo, as Trinity stated, "that the Matrix can not tell you who you are", then the second movie's goal was to convince Neo to reconsider that.
And let's not forget that, by the end of the film, they were messing with Morpheus' head and thus our heads, not to mention Neo's final bit of action at the end of the movie...
Oh yeah, they're still messing with our heads. And you'd better bet that in order for Revolutions to be successful, they're going to have to wrap up this chapter of the Matrix story while leaving us as flabbergasted as before.
Simply stated, the orgy scene should have focused much more only on Neo and Trinity, and it should have been about three minutes shorter. Still, I'd guess that the Wachowskis' goal was to show the primal nature of Zion's inhabitants, and, well, mission accomplished. I just don't think they needed four-and-a-half minutes to do it. (Indeed, the fact that they gathered in a palace of rock and cheered at Morpheus, their faithful "leader" [demagogue], said enough to me about their culture.
Andy, Larry? Feel free to explain yourselves. I'm certain that the Slashdot crowd would love your input...
I only posted it because I read of the "holiday" on the UN web site, and I realized that I knew nothing about it, so I figured most Americans didn't. In any case, I acknowleged that the story was late getting to the public, but at least we might be prepared next year.
(And let's not underestimate the overshadowing effect of E3 -- we Americans seem to like our games, though I wouldn't consider myself part of that group.)
Note to moderators: this comment isn't nearly as funny as it is insightful. Consider that.
Obviously, you missed the point.