Exactly. And I noticed in the article David Boies is one of SCO's lawyers, so I don't think there's much to worry about. The guy can't seem to win a big case........
Hold on here. Think about this... The disk itself is part of the focusing mechanism. The final lens in the player is more of a collimating lens. The player projects a beam (not a pure euclidean line, but a column) of light. When the light hits the plastic, it starts narrowing the beam. Don't take my word for it. Check this out (about halfway down, the bit about playback), or grab a copy of the Red Book. It's well known that the disk is part of the focusing mechanism. It's part of what makes CD's such a reliable mechanism.
The deformation in the plastic is part of the optical properties of the disk. It's not possible to separate what of the dye is causing the changed properties, and what of the shape of the plastic is causing it. You can't have one without the other. It's simply part of the gestalt of CD-R's.
My semi-sarcastic blurb about the AFM was intended to point out that I'm not just making this stuff up, nor am I passing it off second hand. I did this for 4 years. I've personally examined hundreds of disks, "stampers", "mothers", "fathers" and masters. I've done it both with electron microscopes, and later with AFM's.
Now, for all I know, you could be one of the authors of the orange book specs, but speaking as one who's "worked in the trenches" smoothing the manufacturing process, I know how this works. My (admittedly over-simplified) definition of how the disks work stands.
Sorry if this comes off as a rant. Guess I'm just bored on a Sunday afternoon.
Oh, and I no longer work there, but give me an address and I'll see if I can get some of my friends that still work there to get me a couple of pictures and I'll send them to you.
It has to do with the refractive index of the Polycarbonate. It's index is 1.4 (IIRC), so it tends to act as a little bit of a focusing mechanism. The energy density of the beam isn't focused enough to actually cause a deformation until it's traveled approximately 1.2mm (which just happens to be how thick the substrate is), and even then the material that's being heated is the dye (not the substrate; as you said, it's mostly transparent to the laser). Being pedantic (isn't that what started all this?;-), yes, you're correct that the laser isn't directly deforming the plastic. Rather it's the dye heating that causes this. But, yes, the plastic is most definately deformed.
Here's one reference. There are probably others you can find. I can tell you from personal experience of examining "burned" CD-R's with an AFM that there are deformations in the plastic.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "pits are burned into plastic" and "the difficulty of precision coating the dye". If you don't have a nice even layer (down to a few nanometers of consistency) you can't possibly control what's gonna happen when you hit the dye with power. People have been coating things with layers that accurate for years, but being able to do every second of every day on a consistent basis is a real manufacturing challenge.
I suggest you look at a burned disk via AFM to prove this to yourself.
I'm astounded that there's a/. reader who can't install his/her own satellite dish.
And DirecTV DSL rocked. It really sucked that they went under. Rock solid connection and an SLA that stated that you can do whatever you want with *your* bandwidth! And a static IP.
Anyway, sorry you had a bad experience with DirecTV. I've had nothing but good. Except once when they trashed my card going after pirates, and they mailed me a new card within a day or two IIRC. (No, I wasn't pirating...)
I don't know about theories and discoveries, but I can tell you for a fact that that a lot of industries use it for Quality Assurance testing. I know we did at the CD plant that I worked at. The AFM was much better than the old electron microscope we used to use.
The reason that it's important is that, like many other industries that produce objects with precision tolerances, we "tweaked" our entire mastering process to match what the AFM told us would provide disks with the best electrical characteristics. I often wondered why we ended up having to tweak, mold, test, repeat until we found the right process. I certainly didn't suspect the instrument of pointing us in the wrong direction.
I just hope they figure out a way to change the tips in the DI AFM's! What a pain.....
Since you're obviously new around here: You Have Been Trolled Unless you want retinal damage, don't click on the Goat Sex link.....
Re:Make software, not war!
on
Corporate KDE
·
· Score: 1
At the risk of sounding confrontational, I say again : What would you have the government do?
The status quo resulted in September 11. Obviously the old system of dealing with these people was not working. Sticking with it is the equivalent of doing nothing.
Also, bear in mind that while the Bush administration is wielding these new powers, it was the *congress* that granted them. Your ire should not be reserved only for Ashcroft and Bush. All of the members of congress are complicit in this (and if you're not as jaded as most are nowadays, the constituents that voted those folks into office are also to blame).
One last thing. All of the U.S. citizens that have been wrapped up on the wrong end of this war (John Lindh, etc.) were not, in fact, categorized as enemy combatants even though the government clearly (from a legal perspective) could have done so.
I think it's great that we have folks like you that are questioning the government's actions. Without you, this could easily lead to a new era of McCarthyism. Makes me glad I spent 6 years in the Navy to help preserve it all.
Thanks for the stimulating debate, even though we're *waaaay* offtopic!
Re:Make software, not war!
on
Corporate KDE
·
· Score: 1
I just don't know what to say here other than I disagree with you.
Can you point to any specific case where this has happened without good reason? I'm not trying to flame, I just want to know what specifically has you wound up so tight.
Our society is a very open one and the way I see it, some measures like this must be taken in order to keep Americans from losing their lives at the hands of people who can move through our country at will.
What would you have our leadership do? Remain inactive and cross their fingers in the hope that terrorists don't attack us again? That is an intolerable situation.
Anyway, that's my take on it. Until I see the policy abused for no good reason (ie., to silence political dissidents just because they're dissidents; I'm talking about something like arresting Democrats just because they're in the political minority) I can't disagree with it. Having meaningful discussion on policy as politicians normally do isn't going to land you in jail. Posting that you want to cause the destruction of America on a message board just might, and maybe rightfully so.
As always, this is all just my humble opinion. Certainly if the policy starts being abused in the manner that I mentioned above, I'll be the first to grab my gun and join the militia. Until then I see no reason to get excited.
Re:Make software, not war!
on
Corporate KDE
·
· Score: 1
The irony is that your post is only made possible by the very freedoms that you claim have been restricted. In countries that really *do* operate in the manner that you seem to think the U.S.'s is,/. would be obligated to reveal your IP and the authorities would follow it right to your doorstep.
Please be responsible when you rant. Not everything the government does is a personal, egregious attack directly on you.
It's also a case of "The Sky Is Falling!" by whoever submitted the story (and by/.'s editors not qualifying the opening paragraph). I was wondering why I never saw this on the news. As it turns out, the article clearly states that the only users affected were people who had devices attached to the digital output port of the box (not the analog one; VCR's and TiVo's still worked fine).
It's still a bug, but probably a barely noticed one. Not many people will have a device connected on this port.
Also, just wanted to point out something else related to CD-R burning.
Lower speed burning will tend to make larger deformations in the plastic (the write laser was able to pump more energy into the substrate because the plastic stayed above it longer). This makes lower speed recordings more robust in older, finicky players. Of course, it is possible to make too large of a deformation, but that's why the disc provides the recorder information on what power to use. The disc also provides a "calibration" area on the inside of the disc (before the data starts) so that the laser can write and then read back to make sure it's all going to plan. Don't know if most burners use this, but the specification allows for it.
As an analogy, turn on your hairdryer and run your hand in front of the nozzle first slow and then fast. Which time did your hand get warmer? The slow pass, of course.
Sorry if this sounds really anal, but after working as a process engineer at a CD plant for 4 years, I can most definately tell you that the substrate isn't aluminum. It's plastic.
The aluminum is nothing more than a reflective layer; the data is molded into the plastic.
Having said that, you're absolutely right that it would be very unlikely that a CD-ROM drive could produce enough heat to damage the disc.
The point about the CD-R's is mostly correct, however they don't burn the dye away. The dye just works to absorb certain wavelengths from the write laser. All CD-R's come with a smooth (well, mostly smooth; it does "wobble" a little for time coding, etc.) groove instead of a spiral of pits. When the dye in a certain area has heated enough, it deforms the groove, causing a read laser to have a slightly different return at that point. In essence, it becomes a "pit". Since the dye only acts on specific (infrared) wavelengths, the discs are fairly robust; however leaving one in the sunlight for a length of time is guaranteed to destroy it. It is doubtful that a drive could produce that kind of radiation in any meaningful amounts.
BTW, one thing that is rarely mentioned about really fast burners is the write laser power output. It is one of the reasons that burning doesn't go faster; not because of limitations in the substrate.
I have to admit that I sympathize with this sentiment.
So many of my friends seem to think it's inevitable that.NET will be the only web platform out there.
It's really depressing. Microsoft won the public opinion war a long time ago (a clear sign comes when you ask an average user what kind of computer they have and they answer Office 98), and now they seem to be swaying developers as well.
Slashdot Mirror
Exactly. And I noticed in the article David Boies is one of SCO's lawyers, so I don't think there's much to worry about. The guy can't seem to win a big case........
The deformation in the plastic is part of the optical properties of the disk. It's not possible to separate what of the dye is causing the changed properties, and what of the shape of the plastic is causing it. You can't have one without the other. It's simply part of the gestalt of CD-R's.
My semi-sarcastic blurb about the AFM was intended to point out that I'm not just making this stuff up, nor am I passing it off second hand. I did this for 4 years. I've personally examined hundreds of disks, "stampers", "mothers", "fathers" and masters. I've done it both with electron microscopes, and later with AFM's.
Now, for all I know, you could be one of the authors of the orange book specs, but speaking as one who's "worked in the trenches" smoothing the manufacturing process, I know how this works. My (admittedly over-simplified) definition of how the disks work stands.
Sorry if this comes off as a rant. Guess I'm just bored on a Sunday afternoon.
Oh, and I no longer work there, but give me an address and I'll see if I can get some of my friends that still work there to get me a couple of pictures and I'll send them to you.
Here's one reference. There are probably others you can find. I can tell you from personal experience of examining "burned" CD-R's with an AFM that there are deformations in the plastic.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "pits are burned into plastic" and "the difficulty of precision coating the dye". If you don't have a nice even layer (down to a few nanometers of consistency) you can't possibly control what's gonna happen when you hit the dye with power. People have been coating things with layers that accurate for years, but being able to do every second of every day on a consistent basis is a real manufacturing challenge.
I suggest you look at a burned disk via AFM to prove this to yourself.
Excuse me???
Er, no. I worked as a process engineer for four years at a CD plant. Denon Digital Industries in Madison, GA, if you want to know....
You can use PEN and VRRP to get uptime as good as any "commercial" offering.
One of my favorite definitions:
"Intellectual: A person who has been educated beyond his/her intelligence."
Fortunately, we don't seem to have to worry about that with you.
"rabbid" -5 spelling
"diatripe" -5 spelling
"regeme" -5 spelling
"going to slain" -5 grammar
And the last sentence is a run-on.
Have a good day, and try not to fuck any sheep on your way to the parking lot, kiwi.
I'm astounded that there's a /. reader who can't install his/her own satellite dish.
And DirecTV DSL rocked. It really sucked that they went under. Rock solid connection and an SLA that stated that you can do whatever you want with *your* bandwidth! And a static IP.
Anyway, sorry you had a bad experience with DirecTV. I've had nothing but good. Except once when they trashed my card going after pirates, and they mailed me a new card within a day or two IIRC. (No, I wasn't pirating...)
Woops, that should read "I just hope they figure out a way to make it easier to change the tips in the DI AFM's!"
That'll teach me to not use the preview button.....
I don't know about theories and discoveries, but I can tell you for a fact that that a lot of industries use it for Quality Assurance testing. I know we did at the CD plant that I worked at. The AFM was much better than the old electron microscope we used to use.
The reason that it's important is that, like many other industries that produce objects with precision tolerances, we "tweaked" our entire mastering process to match what the AFM told us would provide disks with the best electrical characteristics. I often wondered why we ended up having to tweak, mold, test, repeat until we found the right process. I certainly didn't suspect the instrument of pointing us in the wrong direction.
I just hope they figure out a way to change the tips in the DI AFM's! What a pain.....
YHBT
Since you're obviously new around here:
You Have Been Trolled
Unless you want retinal damage, don't click on the Goat Sex link.....
At the risk of sounding confrontational, I say again : What would you have the government do?
The status quo resulted in September 11. Obviously the old system of dealing with these people was not working. Sticking with it is the equivalent of doing nothing.
Also, bear in mind that while the Bush administration is wielding these new powers, it was the *congress* that granted them. Your ire should not be reserved only for Ashcroft and Bush. All of the members of congress are complicit in this (and if you're not as jaded as most are nowadays, the constituents that voted those folks into office are also to blame).
One last thing. All of the U.S. citizens that have been wrapped up on the wrong end of this war (John Lindh, etc.) were not, in fact, categorized as enemy combatants even though the government clearly (from a legal perspective) could have done so.
I think it's great that we have folks like you that are questioning the government's actions. Without you, this could easily lead to a new era of McCarthyism. Makes me glad I spent 6 years in the Navy to help preserve it all.
Thanks for the stimulating debate, even though we're *waaaay* offtopic!
I just don't know what to say here other than I disagree with you.
Can you point to any specific case where this has happened without good reason? I'm not trying to flame, I just want to know what specifically has you wound up so tight.
Our society is a very open one and the way I see it, some measures like this must be taken in order to keep Americans from losing their lives at the hands of people who can move through our country at will.
What would you have our leadership do? Remain inactive and cross their fingers in the hope that terrorists don't attack us again? That is an intolerable situation.
Anyway, that's my take on it. Until I see the policy abused for no good reason (ie., to silence political dissidents just because they're dissidents; I'm talking about something like arresting Democrats just because they're in the political minority) I can't disagree with it. Having meaningful discussion on policy as politicians normally do isn't going to land you in jail. Posting that you want to cause the destruction of America on a message board just might, and maybe rightfully so.
As always, this is all just my humble opinion. Certainly if the policy starts being abused in the manner that I mentioned above, I'll be the first to grab my gun and join the militia. Until then I see no reason to get excited.
The irony is that your post is only made possible by the very freedoms that you claim have been restricted. In countries that really *do* operate in the manner that you seem to think the U.S.'s is, /. would be obligated to reveal your IP and the authorities would follow it right to your doorstep.
Please be responsible when you rant. Not everything the government does is a personal, egregious attack directly on you.
Then again, there's that guy (Lucky Green) that has filed for a patent specifically to stop microsoft from using Palladium for DRM.
It's so crazy, it just might work......
/usr/ports/astro/celestia is a good example.
Was that before or after Doogle and Father Ted performed "My Lovely Horse"? :-)
Yeah, we used it for much the same purpose in the CD industry (to clean glass substrates).
We used the 40% stuff and it was still strong enough to badly burn you. I lost several pairs of jeans to it.
LOL!
You're a fucking idiot. This is a sarcastic paraphrasing from the book, knucklehead. He was being funny.
Idiot.
What's the big deal?
It's still a bug, but probably a barely noticed one. Not many people will have a device connected on this port.
Lower speed burning will tend to make larger deformations in the plastic (the write laser was able to pump more energy into the substrate because the plastic stayed above it longer). This makes lower speed recordings more robust in older, finicky players. Of course, it is possible to make too large of a deformation, but that's why the disc provides the recorder information on what power to use. The disc also provides a "calibration" area on the inside of the disc (before the data starts) so that the laser can write and then read back to make sure it's all going to plan. Don't know if most burners use this, but the specification allows for it.
As an analogy, turn on your hairdryer and run your hand in front of the nozzle first slow and then fast. Which time did your hand get warmer? The slow pass, of course.
The aluminum is nothing more than a reflective layer; the data is molded into the plastic.
Having said that, you're absolutely right that it would be very unlikely that a CD-ROM drive could produce enough heat to damage the disc.
The point about the CD-R's is mostly correct, however they don't burn the dye away. The dye just works to absorb certain wavelengths from the write laser. All CD-R's come with a smooth (well, mostly smooth; it does "wobble" a little for time coding, etc.) groove instead of a spiral of pits. When the dye in a certain area has heated enough, it deforms the groove, causing a read laser to have a slightly different return at that point. In essence, it becomes a "pit". Since the dye only acts on specific (infrared) wavelengths, the discs are fairly robust; however leaving one in the sunlight for a length of time is guaranteed to destroy it. It is doubtful that a drive could produce that kind of radiation in any meaningful amounts.
BTW, one thing that is rarely mentioned about really fast burners is the write laser power output. It is one of the reasons that burning doesn't go faster; not because of limitations in the substrate.
Sorry for the rant.
How about eLinux or iLinux?
Just kidding.....
No, my example was perfect.
The point is that the user can't tell the distinction between Windows and Office, and they think that unified thing *is* their computer.
I've been told that exact quote before, when what the person meant was "Office 97 and Windows 98".
I knew I should have explained that, but I figured that everyone would understand.
I have to admit that I sympathize with this sentiment.
.NET will be the only web platform out there.
So many of my friends seem to think it's inevitable that
It's really depressing. Microsoft won the public opinion war a long time ago (a clear sign comes when you ask an average user what kind of computer they have and they answer Office 98), and now they seem to be swaying developers as well.