Obviously, there is something about "monopoly" and "unfair trade practice" that you fail to understand. MS attempts to present the world with a monolithic operating system, with such claims as "the browser is an integral part of the OS", thereby using that monolithic structure to crush competition.
If, A: you don't understand that, you should read history outside of MS approved sources.
If, B: you are just trolling as an MS fanboi, no amount of explanation is going to change your mind
If, C: you really WOULD like to see MS actually make constructive contributions to computer science, as opposed to just enriching it's current stockholders, you should agree with me. Breaking up Microsoft, and forcing each division to act independently, will almost certainly make each of the divisions more standards compliant. Interoperability will improve unbelievably, because IE, for instance, won't have the wealth of the other divisions to draw on. It is only that wealth, and the stubborness of MS, that has prevented IE from being standards compliant in the past.
MS Office was nothing more than a bludgeon used by MS to re-write standards in a manner difficult to copy by other office suites last year, remember? MS reps waltzed into the conference, paid off a few people, and bullied the rest into signing off on a new standard. Phhht. As a seperate corporation, they could never have pulled that off.
Maybe MS Office really IS the best office system in the world - but it should stand on it's own merits, and not rely on all the rest of the MS monopoly.
What we have today really sucks. And, because so few people can even imagine how much better things COULD BE, they think that they are happy with it.
Your sarcasm is noted. There IS NO sarcasm in my post, here or above. I do care about improving things. I am quite certain that MS only cares about lining their pockets.
I can haz a Kenworth with a Caterpillar, Detroit, or a Cummins engine.
I can haz a Peterbilt with a Caterpillar, Detroit, or a Cummins engine.
I can haz a Freightliner with a Caterpillar, Detroit, or a Cummins engine.
I can haz a Mack with a Caterpillar, Detroit, Cummins, OR a Mack engine.
Stepping down to the smaller, cheaper modes of transportation,
I can haz a Ford Taurus with a 4 cyl, 6 cyl, or even an 8 cyl engine, automatic or 5 speed, with a variety of rearends. I can even have a GM or Chrysler engine under the hood, if I choose to invest the time and/or money to do so.
What gives Microsoft the right to say what I may or may not install on their operating system? What gives them the right to say that I CANNOT use their API's, or their file system, or their office suite on Linux, OS2, Solaris, or whatever I CHOOSE?
MS never had the right to put a string into Windows that checked fro MS-DOS, then refused to install if the DOS was from some other company.
It's far past time to break the monopoly. AT&T was probably the most benevolent monopoly in American history, and it was broken up. Microsoft's breakup is long overdue.
Cut in two? Not enough. The browser needs to go, simple as that. DirectX needs to be torn out, and put into competition against things like OpenGL. The office suite needs to be ripped out of the hands of the operating system people, and any future collusion absolutely prohibited. Take out the silly chat program, and make it earn it's own way. Turn Microsoft's portfolio into a damned paper doll. Competition might actually IMPROVE the various products. Those that don't improve can die out and be trashed. It isn't entirely a matter of making "Microsoft" competitive, but making each of Microsoft's products competitive.
How do I go about doing this? I'm in the US, and I don't know how to use the given address to process an electronic transfer.
Hell yes, I'll send them a nickel - then ask for it back!!! This is funny as hell. (And yes, I DO enjoy expressing my contempt of officials and/or officious boobs. It is MUCH more enjoyable when done face to face, but this will work for me!)
Perhaps you didn't read that the judge is drinking buddies with the prosecution? The judge belongs to several - uhhh - "fraternities" whose goal is to enrich the *iaa's of the world? Perhaps you missed the fact that a jail term was handed down for what amounts to a civil matter? Or, maybe the fact that this court (let alone the judge) has no jurisdiction over the servers? (I'm not certain whether the court has jurisdiction over the company or not, but the servers are definitely beyond the court's jurisdiction - I should find out where TPB is incorporated as a business)
I'm not savvy enough to explain a whole lot more, but, yes - this kangaroo court is so flawed and tainted that any lawyer in the world should be embarassed to even read about it. Everyone involved in the prosecution whored themselves out shamelessly.
Wrong country, wrong court, wrong judge, and most definitely the wrong complainants.
Simple solution. One that will fix the problem more permanently, too. Fine the shareholders and stockholders. Make certain that the fines are paid by the people who own the freaking COMPANY. Miss Hottentotty expects to make 20,000 dollars on her investment, but finds that she makes NOTHING due to illegal decisions on the part of company executives, she will become those executive's worst nightmare personified.
Those executives will NEVER try anything shady again, without the approval of the investors.
I tend to think that the monopolies have more freedom in the US, thanks to *ahem - cough* "lobbying" *cough cough* in Washington. Any company that can go to capital hill with millions to spend (read "lavish on greedy politicians) can come back down the hill assured of the fact that regulation won't touch them.
"Playing by the rules" is easy when the rules writers are on your payroll.
IMHO, AMD makes a better product, and that opinion is being borne out in recent news. Virtualization on almost any 64 bit AMD processor is a given. Virtualization on Intel chips is a big "maybe", because Intel has gone cheap, and tried to make people pay a premium for full virtualization capabilities. I'm happy to see Intel slapped around by the EU. It's time that the US got onboard, and did some slapping of it's own.
That makes me wonder how honest the politicians are. Do they STAY bought after they've been payed for?
Ahhhh - bigotry? Anyone who believes in some superior being is by definition unintelligent? Asshole, you've just described more than half the earth's population as idiots, just because you don't agree with them. Now, who is "intelligent"?
I propose that an incompetent person should be liable for his equipment, just as a competent person is responsible for his equipment.
In short, when people use hijacking of thier computer as an excuse, they are only making excuses for their incompetence.
Not competent? Don't operate. Period.
And, yes, 70% or more of people who rely on Windows are truly INCOMPETENT. Their incompetence should not be license for harboring a computer program which threatens other people's use of the internet.
Revisionist history, again. The majority of the founding fathers believed in God. All of them saw the wisdom in preventing an "official" church, and phrased the prohibition carefully. The "seperation of church and state" is today a tortured exercise in false logic, pushed by those who want to outlaw religion, or want to outlaw certain religions. The only reason for thier opposition to a state sponsored religion, was to avoid enlisting/forcing the clergy hammering home political agendas from the pulpit. Stop making silly shit up to support your own arrogant desire to change this country to suit your tastes. Your bullshit tarnishes the concept of "intelligence".
Don't forget to add in the extra MONETARY COST of owning and maintaining all the extra equipment necessary for doing things the mafiaa approved way. Our school disctrict alone might spend $10,000 annually to keep this obsolete equipment around, pointlessly. It costs just about $0.00 to just rip content on a ten year old computer.
Ahem. You seem to have that bass-ackwards. Top quality cassette tape is superior to top quality vinyl - AND much cheaper. Vinyl is played back with one single needle, while a good cassette recorder/player has multiple heads. Even my ancient reel-to-reel had multiple heads. (5 I think, maybe 7 - but I'm not digging it out just to check) Perhaps you meant to compare vinyl to 8-track. Those 8-tracks were a pile of pig shit, which is why I never owned one.
Your analogies are lame, in that they fail to put things into perspective.
A major auto manufacturer builds cars, all of which start with the same key. They DO BUILD the prettiest, most comfortable, easiest to operate vehicle on the road, but refuse to complicate matters with individual keys for each car. Every car they make starts with the same damned key. Thieves know this, so they steal a LOT of these cars.
So, who is to blame for all the malware infestations? Microsoft bears a lot of the responsibility, plain and simple.
When Apple, BSD, Linux, and similar operating systems are routinely and trivially exploited by malware writers, THEN I will reconsider who is to blame. When MY systems are routinely and trivially exploited immediately after installation, during update, THEN I will re-evaluate how I look at computing.
Most Americans, at least, are totally incapable of computing the risk involved in owning a computer, let alone how to minimize that risk. People who don't understand the risk of owning a firearm, or a car, or a computer, should not be allowed to own and operate any of those items.
No, Windows is NOT "good enough" for anyone who even hopes to protect his data on the web.
This seems to get to the heart of the article. Windows just isn't "good enough". 99+% of all malware is microsoft specific. The BILLIONS of dollars spent on securing Windows, downtime, recovering from infection, and money lost due to malware activity proves that Windows isn't "good enough". Every single time I hear the "good enough" thing, I think of reports like this: http://cio.energy.gov/cybersecurity/vppca.htm
The problem with the "good enough" idea, is that what is "good enough" for Joe Blow's home use is perceived to be "good enough" for business and other uses.
To be honest, the insecure Windows environment may just be "good enough" for Joe Blow. But, MS aggressively sells it's product to business, the military, government, and every one else on the planet. It is NOT "good enough".
One of the first things a healthy individual with any intelligence does when burnt, is to REMOVE THE BURNING MATERIAL from the body. It's a reflex. You snatch your hand away, or you jump, or pull your shirt off. I once spilled hot liquid on myself at work, and promptly pulled my pants off, along with the oil soaking my thigh.
An elderly woman, sitting in a car, perhaps with limited mobility, and perfectly unwilling to undress herself in public just MIGHT have suffered a 3rd degree burn.
"Charring" is a characteristic of a dry burn, and being in contact with a point of combustion. On the other hand, "3rd degree burn" signifies that the layers of skin were all killed, and that the heat destroyed underlying tissue - most usually muscle.
So, yeah - I can imagine that she might have suffered 3rd degree burns. Hard to imagine, but imaginable. Not to mention that a good lawyer can blur the lines between 2nd and 3rd degree burns.
Actually - they've changed brands a couple times. For a short period of time, I think about 1999, they actually made decent coffee. Another well known coffee vendor, (in the southern US) is 7-11. They made HORRID coffee for years, then switched brands. Very good cup of java, if it hadn't been sitting for hours. Then they switched again to Fa-Ellen. It doesn't suck quite as bad as the original blend of trash, but I don't drink it.
I don't know about you, but I drink my coffee at 170 to 180 degrees. I run my bath water at about 105 t0 119 degrees. I have certain sesitive parts that don't tolerate hot water as well as other less sensitive parts.
Are we to assume that you don't possess these sensitive little bits of anatomy?
error in above post - my bath water runs 105 to 110 - stupid fingers!!
I don't know about you, but I drink my coffee at 170 to 180 degrees. I run my bath water at about 105 t0 119 degrees. I have certain sesitive parts that don't tolerate hot water as well as other less sensitive parts.
Are we to assume that you don't possess these sensitive little bits of anatomy?
I see this as something like poetic justice. I have never forgiven Intel for their bright idea of making processors that identified themselves to the world at large. Anonymity has it's place in this world, and that chip was a monumental boner. More, I see most of Intel's business decisions as based on greed. AMD is greedy, to be sure, but their decisions seem designed to move computer science forward, while capitalizing on that move. Intel? Money first and foremost, with computer science a side benefit.
How about an automobile analogy? Detroit is folding today, because they've been focused on the almighty dollar, rather than producing better transportation.
Lesson learned? Money is important, but it should never be "the goal". Improving the world should be the goal.
You're making this up, right? IMHO, the naming schemes and the CHANGES in naming schemes are just so much FUD. (W2k should have been named NT5, XP should have been NT5.1, Vista should have been about 5.7, and Win7 MIGHT qualify as NT6) The kernels simply haven't changed that much.
Thorvalds started his kernel before NT, I believe. Care to guess what version it is at now?
guy@guy-desktop:~/linuxdcpp$ uname -a Linux guy-desktop 2.6.27-11-generic #1 SMP Wed Apr 1 20:53:41 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux
The numbers go up much more slowly, but the gap is being closed all the same.
Toddestan's answer below almost matches mine. I consider 512M of memory to be minimum. If you have to use swap file, it will be very painful, on that old a machine. In fact, I put XP on a laptop running at 700 something mhz, with only 192M of memory, and it SUCKED!! The trick is to keep the kernel in memory, with all your running processes, and to NEVER HIT THE SWAP!! The 333mhz machine may still be a little underpowered - using AMD chips, it seemed that 400 mhz was the breaking point. If your board has an L-3 cache, that helps. I can't stress enough - TWEAK IT!!! BlackViper has a great tweaking guide, primarily aimed at unnecessary services. If you're afraid of the registry, don't bother, because you'll be in it up to your neck before you have a good running machine. Have fun!!
Obviously, there is something about "monopoly" and "unfair trade practice" that you fail to understand. MS attempts to present the world with a monolithic operating system, with such claims as "the browser is an integral part of the OS", thereby using that monolithic structure to crush competition.
If, A: you don't understand that, you should read history outside of MS approved sources.
If, B: you are just trolling as an MS fanboi, no amount of explanation is going to change your mind
If, C: you really WOULD like to see MS actually make constructive contributions to computer science, as opposed to just enriching it's current stockholders, you should agree with me. Breaking up Microsoft, and forcing each division to act independently, will almost certainly make each of the divisions more standards compliant. Interoperability will improve unbelievably, because IE, for instance, won't have the wealth of the other divisions to draw on. It is only that wealth, and the stubborness of MS, that has prevented IE from being standards compliant in the past.
MS Office was nothing more than a bludgeon used by MS to re-write standards in a manner difficult to copy by other office suites last year, remember? MS reps waltzed into the conference, paid off a few people, and bullied the rest into signing off on a new standard. Phhht. As a seperate corporation, they could never have pulled that off.
Maybe MS Office really IS the best office system in the world - but it should stand on it's own merits, and not rely on all the rest of the MS monopoly.
What we have today really sucks. And, because so few people can even imagine how much better things COULD BE, they think that they are happy with it.
Your sarcasm is noted. There IS NO sarcasm in my post, here or above. I do care about improving things. I am quite certain that MS only cares about lining their pockets.
Yet another automobile analogy (large cars):
I can haz a Kenworth with a Caterpillar, Detroit, or a Cummins engine.
I can haz a Peterbilt with a Caterpillar, Detroit, or a Cummins engine.
I can haz a Freightliner with a Caterpillar, Detroit, or a Cummins engine.
I can haz a Mack with a Caterpillar, Detroit, Cummins, OR a Mack engine.
Stepping down to the smaller, cheaper modes of transportation,
I can haz a Ford Taurus with a 4 cyl, 6 cyl, or even an 8 cyl engine, automatic or 5 speed, with a variety of rearends. I can even have a GM or Chrysler engine under the hood, if I choose to invest the time and/or money to do so.
What gives Microsoft the right to say what I may or may not install on their operating system? What gives them the right to say that I CANNOT use their API's, or their file system, or their office suite on Linux, OS2, Solaris, or whatever I CHOOSE?
MS never had the right to put a string into Windows that checked fro MS-DOS, then refused to install if the DOS was from some other company.
It's far past time to break the monopoly. AT&T was probably the most benevolent monopoly in American history, and it was broken up. Microsoft's breakup is long overdue.
Cut in two? Not enough. The browser needs to go, simple as that. DirectX needs to be torn out, and put into competition against things like OpenGL. The office suite needs to be ripped out of the hands of the operating system people, and any future collusion absolutely prohibited. Take out the silly chat program, and make it earn it's own way. Turn Microsoft's portfolio into a damned paper doll. Competition might actually IMPROVE the various products. Those that don't improve can die out and be trashed. It isn't entirely a matter of making "Microsoft" competitive, but making each of Microsoft's products competitive.
but how would one even quantify what is know and not know.
You could start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_computer_viruses That is certainly not all-inclusive, but it's a decent start. I'll leave you to google for the host of Linux exploits.
2 Ore-o's? http://www.nabiscoworld.com/Oreo/
Alright, two cookies coming through the intertubez right now!!! :-)
How do I go about doing this? I'm in the US, and I don't know how to use the given address to process an electronic transfer.
Hell yes, I'll send them a nickel - then ask for it back!!! This is funny as hell. (And yes, I DO enjoy expressing my contempt of officials and/or officious boobs. It is MUCH more enjoyable when done face to face, but this will work for me!)
Perhaps you didn't read that the judge is drinking buddies with the prosecution? The judge belongs to several - uhhh - "fraternities" whose goal is to enrich the *iaa's of the world? Perhaps you missed the fact that a jail term was handed down for what amounts to a civil matter? Or, maybe the fact that this court (let alone the judge) has no jurisdiction over the servers? (I'm not certain whether the court has jurisdiction over the company or not, but the servers are definitely beyond the court's jurisdiction - I should find out where TPB is incorporated as a business)
I'm not savvy enough to explain a whole lot more, but, yes - this kangaroo court is so flawed and tainted that any lawyer in the world should be embarassed to even read about it. Everyone involved in the prosecution whored themselves out shamelessly.
Wrong country, wrong court, wrong judge, and most definitely the wrong complainants.
Simple solution. One that will fix the problem more permanently, too. Fine the shareholders and stockholders. Make certain that the fines are paid by the people who own the freaking COMPANY. Miss Hottentotty expects to make 20,000 dollars on her investment, but finds that she makes NOTHING due to illegal decisions on the part of company executives, she will become those executive's worst nightmare personified.
Those executives will NEVER try anything shady again, without the approval of the investors.
I tend to think that the monopolies have more freedom in the US, thanks to *ahem - cough* "lobbying" *cough cough* in Washington. Any company that can go to capital hill with millions to spend (read "lavish on greedy politicians) can come back down the hill assured of the fact that regulation won't touch them.
"Playing by the rules" is easy when the rules writers are on your payroll.
IMHO, AMD makes a better product, and that opinion is being borne out in recent news. Virtualization on almost any 64 bit AMD processor is a given. Virtualization on Intel chips is a big "maybe", because Intel has gone cheap, and tried to make people pay a premium for full virtualization capabilities. I'm happy to see Intel slapped around by the EU. It's time that the US got onboard, and did some slapping of it's own.
That makes me wonder how honest the politicians are. Do they STAY bought after they've been payed for?
Not only bigoted, but you speak for everyone on slashdot - how interesting.....
Ahhhh - bigotry? Anyone who believes in some superior being is by definition unintelligent? Asshole, you've just described more than half the earth's population as idiots, just because you don't agree with them. Now, who is "intelligent"?
I propose that an incompetent person should be liable for his equipment, just as a competent person is responsible for his equipment.
In short, when people use hijacking of thier computer as an excuse, they are only making excuses for their incompetence.
Not competent? Don't operate. Period.
And, yes, 70% or more of people who rely on Windows are truly INCOMPETENT. Their incompetence should not be license for harboring a computer program which threatens other people's use of the internet.
Responsibility - what a concept.
Revisionist history, again. The majority of the founding fathers believed in God. All of them saw the wisdom in preventing an "official" church, and phrased the prohibition carefully. The "seperation of church and state" is today a tortured exercise in false logic, pushed by those who want to outlaw religion, or want to outlaw certain religions. The only reason for thier opposition to a state sponsored religion, was to avoid enlisting/forcing the clergy hammering home political agendas from the pulpit. Stop making silly shit up to support your own arrogant desire to change this country to suit your tastes. Your bullshit tarnishes the concept of "intelligence".
Don't forget to add in the extra MONETARY COST of owning and maintaining all the extra equipment necessary for doing things the mafiaa approved way. Our school disctrict alone might spend $10,000 annually to keep this obsolete equipment around, pointlessly. It costs just about $0.00 to just rip content on a ten year old computer.
Ahem. You seem to have that bass-ackwards. Top quality cassette tape is superior to top quality vinyl - AND much cheaper. Vinyl is played back with one single needle, while a good cassette recorder/player has multiple heads. Even my ancient reel-to-reel had multiple heads. (5 I think, maybe 7 - but I'm not digging it out just to check) Perhaps you meant to compare vinyl to 8-track. Those 8-tracks were a pile of pig shit, which is why I never owned one.
Your analogies are lame, in that they fail to put things into perspective.
A major auto manufacturer builds cars, all of which start with the same key. They DO BUILD the prettiest, most comfortable, easiest to operate vehicle on the road, but refuse to complicate matters with individual keys for each car. Every car they make starts with the same damned key. Thieves know this, so they steal a LOT of these cars.
So, who is to blame for all the malware infestations? Microsoft bears a lot of the responsibility, plain and simple.
When Apple, BSD, Linux, and similar operating systems are routinely and trivially exploited by malware writers, THEN I will reconsider who is to blame. When MY systems are routinely and trivially exploited immediately after installation, during update, THEN I will re-evaluate how I look at computing.
Most Americans, at least, are totally incapable of computing the risk involved in owning a computer, let alone how to minimize that risk. People who don't understand the risk of owning a firearm, or a car, or a computer, should not be allowed to own and operate any of those items.
No, Windows is NOT "good enough" for anyone who even hopes to protect his data on the web.
This seems to get to the heart of the article. Windows just isn't "good enough". 99+% of all malware is microsoft specific. The BILLIONS of dollars spent on securing Windows, downtime, recovering from infection, and money lost due to malware activity proves that Windows isn't "good enough". Every single time I hear the "good enough" thing, I think of reports like this:
http://cio.energy.gov/cybersecurity/vppca.htm
The problem with the "good enough" idea, is that what is "good enough" for Joe Blow's home use is perceived to be "good enough" for business and other uses.
To be honest, the insecure Windows environment may just be "good enough" for Joe Blow. But, MS aggressively sells it's product to business, the military, government, and every one else on the planet. It is NOT "good enough".
Your point is understood here. Now, try to sell it to the college boys who make a game out of economics, thoroughly trashing said economy. ;-)
One of the first things a healthy individual with any intelligence does when burnt, is to REMOVE THE BURNING MATERIAL from the body. It's a reflex. You snatch your hand away, or you jump, or pull your shirt off. I once spilled hot liquid on myself at work, and promptly pulled my pants off, along with the oil soaking my thigh.
An elderly woman, sitting in a car, perhaps with limited mobility, and perfectly unwilling to undress herself in public just MIGHT have suffered a 3rd degree burn.
"Charring" is a characteristic of a dry burn, and being in contact with a point of combustion. On the other hand, "3rd degree burn" signifies that the layers of skin were all killed, and that the heat destroyed underlying tissue - most usually muscle.
So, yeah - I can imagine that she might have suffered 3rd degree burns. Hard to imagine, but imaginable. Not to mention that a good lawyer can blur the lines between 2nd and 3rd degree burns.
Actually - they've changed brands a couple times. For a short period of time, I think about 1999, they actually made decent coffee. Another well known coffee vendor, (in the southern US) is 7-11. They made HORRID coffee for years, then switched brands. Very good cup of java, if it hadn't been sitting for hours. Then they switched again to Fa-Ellen. It doesn't suck quite as bad as the original blend of trash, but I don't drink it.
I don't know about you, but I drink my coffee at 170 to 180 degrees. I run my bath water at about 105 t0 119 degrees. I have certain sesitive parts that don't tolerate hot water as well as other less sensitive parts.
Are we to assume that you don't possess these sensitive little bits of anatomy?
error in above post - my bath water runs 105 to 110 - stupid fingers!!
I don't know about you, but I drink my coffee at 170 to 180 degrees. I run my bath water at about 105 t0 119 degrees. I have certain sesitive parts that don't tolerate hot water as well as other less sensitive parts.
Are we to assume that you don't possess these sensitive little bits of anatomy?
I see this as something like poetic justice. I have never forgiven Intel for their bright idea of making processors that identified themselves to the world at large. Anonymity has it's place in this world, and that chip was a monumental boner. More, I see most of Intel's business decisions as based on greed. AMD is greedy, to be sure, but their decisions seem designed to move computer science forward, while capitalizing on that move. Intel? Money first and foremost, with computer science a side benefit.
How about an automobile analogy? Detroit is folding today, because they've been focused on the almighty dollar, rather than producing better transportation.
Lesson learned? Money is important, but it should never be "the goal". Improving the world should be the goal.
You're making this up, right? IMHO, the naming schemes and the CHANGES in naming schemes are just so much FUD. (W2k should have been named NT5, XP should have been NT5.1, Vista should have been about 5.7, and Win7 MIGHT qualify as NT6) The kernels simply haven't changed that much.
Thorvalds started his kernel before NT, I believe. Care to guess what version it is at now?
guy@guy-desktop:~/linuxdcpp$ uname -a
Linux guy-desktop 2.6.27-11-generic #1 SMP Wed Apr 1 20:53:41 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux
The numbers go up much more slowly, but the gap is being closed all the same.
Toddestan's answer below almost matches mine. I consider 512M of memory to be minimum. If you have to use swap file, it will be very painful, on that old a machine. In fact, I put XP on a laptop running at 700 something mhz, with only 192M of memory, and it SUCKED!! The trick is to keep the kernel in memory, with all your running processes, and to NEVER HIT THE SWAP!! The 333mhz machine may still be a little underpowered - using AMD chips, it seemed that 400 mhz was the breaking point. If your board has an L-3 cache, that helps. I can't stress enough - TWEAK IT!!! BlackViper has a great tweaking guide, primarily aimed at unnecessary services. If you're afraid of the registry, don't bother, because you'll be in it up to your neck before you have a good running machine. Have fun!!