Assuming I watned to sell you on Linux over a Mac I'd do something like this:
I'll sell you a computer for 1/3 the price of the Mac that will do e-mail, have a word processor, and browse the internet fine if you don't mind trying out Linux. If you don't like it I'll buy the computer back from you, and help you pick out your Mac, On top of the fact that it's a fraction of the cost you also get greatly increased customisability and flexability.
Ok, I think we agree on some basic premesies but we disagree on others. Mostly the degree of customisation that is usefull for Computer User Interfaces, Honestly nearly any interface is usable, and some are better than others. While the esentials in a car are standardised, except for the placement of the gear shift, there are many features that are totaly differently placed, the main example I used in several other posts is the headlights, but the windsheild wipers are another example. Also the "H" of a manual gearshift can vary greatly from one make of car to another, for example german cars have one "H" American and Japaneese cars have a different one, Fords, Chevys and Dodges all have sligtly differnt widths on their "H", and dozens of other little things, these the driver doesn't even get a choice on other than take or leave all at once. I'll admit that my study of Human Interface is fairly shallow, as in non-existant, however I do know what works for me, and what works for people I know.
Basicaly just don't do anything that's going to have an unwanted disruptive effect on your coworkers, That doesn't mean that you don't disturb them just make sure that you keep in mind that they can hear you.
By recomending that we fix it you're implying that the current system is broken, I am simply stating that it's NOT BROKEN. Restricting things to much is very broken, not allowing users the flexability to work on the manner that best fits them is broken. Not allowing users to expand past the initial layout is broken. OS X is a very pretty OS, but when I used it I prefered using X apps through X Darwin. I'm not talking about hand crafting a GUI, I'm talking about being able to use a GUI that works with your way of thinking, not all humans think alike, so why try to cram all of them into the same box?
I didn't know you couldn't put it on two different displays, man that sucks, do you know if it works of two users are doing two different displays? Actualy I'll just try it out when I get home, I'll create a second user for that.
Yes, and OSS has several good choices, in KDE and Gnome, they work the way you expect, several of the other window managers work rather well as well, no matter which choice the user choses they can get their work done. Your rant is an utter non-issue, EACH DESKTOP WORKS, and they work with eachother, so you can buy your frosty at wendy's buy your burger at burger king, buy fries at McDonalds, and buy a limeade at sonic (which by the way doing literaly takes a lot of time in drivethroughs)
I had a rant about this elsewhere but you are truyly deserving of the flamage. CARS ARE NOT STANDARDIZED BEYOND BASIC FUNCIONALITY THAT IS TIME CRITICAL. You've said all the things that are standard, and not even the gages are that standard, some cars have Tacheometers, some don't, some have oil pressure gauges, some just have idiot lights, The idiot lights are aranged differently, the cup holders are in different places the switch for the headlight varries hugely.
The default is the shopkeepers advice, each distrobution has a default WM, if you don't like the default, you can try something else, but there IS a default.
Applications do not know what envoronment they are in, they just know that they interface with a server that displays them. as long as you have the libraries the application works. It's not like windows where you can't run a win 98 app on win 95, as long as you have the libraries you don't need anything else.
No, once they are baptised by the water of open source and choice they will open their eyes. They don't hate us, they are ignorant and need to be educated that we even exist. They need to see the light of freedom, and choice, and power. We offer them salvation, a spirutal and etical cleansing, power to take back their computers, to understand their world, and they do not know, they do not choose to wallow in the muck, they do not know another way.
don't worry about it, I'm being overly emotional. I didn't realise you hadn't used GTK+ or QT in a few years. Anyway, the Gnome people and the KDE people fixed that now. Try finking them. You can run Gnome and KDE rootless with X darwin.
Think about it this way, what is there to cause problems? You're using a network transparent display system that doesn't assume there even is a WM or DE, much less that they will do anything for you. The only thing the app knows is that it's got libraries on the client comuter, and it displays on an X server (in many instances on the same computer) The program doesn't care if the X server is running other programs, or even if it's on another computer, it simply runs with the interface it is suposed to.
It's always Middle Mouse, That's built into X anything else is a Toolkit specific cut and paste. Not that the toolkiat specific cut and paste isn't good, but middle click ALWAYS works
I call bullshit. KDE and Gnome now interoperate on a drag and drop level, also you only need to support your app, not the surrounding cruft, You state that you need foo or higher version of GTK, or QT and you only worry about it if a new version breaks backward compatiablity. if you're realy worried you STATICALY LINK the damned Tool Kit into your app Support is no worse than between versoins of windows, in fact it's usualy less of an issue, because Libraries are LESS dependant on exact versions of eachother.
Ok, anyone who's been reading my other posts is going to think I'm being inconsistant, but stick with me. WE WANT JOE SIX PACK. Joe Sixpack brings developers for all sorts of interesting toys to us, like games, it brings us greedy developers, which IMNSHO is a good thing. Greedy developers put out apps that sell, Greedy Developers in the Linux world will have to compete against GNU software, so think about how their need to make a buck is going to drive the software development. That said, we shoudldn't destroy Linux/the Unix Philosophy to get Joe Sixpack, we should teach Joe how cool Linux is on his terms, these are the people for whom "HEY! WATCH THIS" is a part of the everyday vocabulary. they like flash, they like speed, they like polish, basicaly they like chrome. Windows has gone to a pussy sickly interface, the mac has gone all most modern on us, we need to strike while the metal is hot, people are having to chose a new interface, and the metal will get even hotter with longhorn, MS is breaking their own backward compatablity. Why pay $200 for longhorn? I'll give you Linux for FREE
and we'll buy a keg for what you would have spent on Longhorn. I've never seen ANYONE have trouble with Linux interfaces after being shown how to use them. and these same people needed to be shown how to use Windows. I have trouble using windows and I use it every day, On Linux, no troubles, everything just works the way I expect it to. Of course when I get a new install, the first thing I do is set my system up so it works the way I expect it to, but hey, what can you do?
The car analaogy people use is utter and complete
bullshit, people talk about it as a unified
interface, however only one part of the interface is standardised, the petals and the steering wheel.
past that every car is different, some are manuals,
some are automatics, some shift in the floor, some
in the steering column, and don't even get me started on the types and placements
of headlight controls. The hood release is in
different places, the radio works differently,
some have power locks, some don't some have power
windows, some don't, some have remote keyless entry
some don't, some have power sliding side doors,
and the list goes on. CARS ARE NOT CONSISTANT.
That said people still buy cars, in fact they
are one of the most popular consumer goods in the
world. I think we should take CHOICE from cars,
and marketing from cars, but looking at cars as an
ideal of consistancy is utter and complete tripe.
Wow, that's a realy great Idea, Unfortunatly I
don't have the money to buy computers, even old
obsolete ones to do that with, but that's still a
great idea. With how cheaply old computers can be
had that'll give us anothe prong in the battle
against MicroSoft. We've attacked them from above,
and from below, now let's slide into another market
unfortunatly the market we're sliding into doesn't
have the money to command comercial software, but
they would be an army worth of beta testers, and
usability testers. This could go a long way.
Um, whenever I've used a GTK for windows app it looks a hell of a lot like a windows app. same command buttons, same borders, etc. the design Menus are slightly different, but other than that, it's fairly transparent to the end user.
Damned straight, we don't need to bow to the pressure to use a sandardised anything, we need to improve our marketing and SELL CHOICE.
I don't care if the unwashed masses are put off
by choice, give them a good default, make choises
easy to find, but also easy to avoid. I personaly
love GNOME, but KDE has good points to, do I think
any less of a freind of mine who likes KDE? No, but I do love GNOME.
I also loved Enlightenment 0.16, and when the E
folks come out with their next version I'll be rather
willing to try it out. Think of it this way, in
everything but computers consumers love choice
they like to choose their cars, their airlines,
their greasy burgers, after all shouldn't we just
standardise on one fast foot resturaunt, then you
could get McDonald's fries, Wendy's frosties,
Burger King's hamburgers, and Sonic's limeade all
at one place, but that doesn't happen, you get 4
different resturaunts that you can choose which
food element is most important to you, and go to
and get passable choises for the rest of the items
consumers understand choice, and they aren't afraid
of it. They simply need to be educated about the
choices out there.
Um, what's wrong with us wanting to secure otur oil supply? World War 1, World War 2, the Cold War, and the first Gulf ware all show that the supply of oil can be a deciding factor in War, I'm not saying we shouldn't try to reduce our dependancy on oil, however the need for oil is clear cut, and is a reality of our current economic and military realities. Should we drill more of our own oil, YES, should we open up Anwar, YES, should we explore other means of energy, YES, however currently we do need the forign oil. I support Alchohol as a fuel, I support renewable resources, but sometimes you just have to bend to current realities. Washington should stop hamstringing the development of alternitive energy sources, We export huge amounts of grain, we should be exporting technology to grow grain, and use our surplus to cure our energy woes, especialy when you consider that around 10% of planted land is destroyed each year. Well, my rant is begining to lose coherency, so I think I'll stop now.
No, not illegal, you just have to pay royalties to the person who wrote the song. I know several musisians, and many of them do covers.
File Selector
on
GTK+ TTY Port
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
I actualy like the GTK+ file selector. it's very powerfull, and I like that it makes traversing the direcotry tree easy. Apple liked it enough to steal it and pretty it up in Aqua, so I don't know why people gripe about it.
I think there was an element of sarcasim there, on the other hand, he could be comparing it to Africa, the Arabian Penensula, or southern Asia. Yeah, we be badass, but there are other places that are much more violent.
Slashdot Mirror
Assuming I watned to sell you on Linux over a Mac I'd do something like this:
I'll sell you a computer for 1/3 the price of the Mac that will do e-mail, have a word processor, and browse the internet fine if you don't mind trying out Linux. If you don't like it I'll buy the computer back from you, and help you pick out your Mac, On top of the fact that it's a fraction of the cost you also get greatly increased customisability and flexability.
Ok, I think we agree on some basic premesies but we disagree on others. Mostly the degree of customisation that is usefull for Computer User Interfaces, Honestly nearly any interface is usable, and some are better than others. While the esentials in a car are standardised, except for the placement of the gear shift, there are many features that are totaly differently placed, the main example I used in several other posts is the headlights, but the windsheild wipers are another example. Also the "H" of a manual gearshift can vary greatly from one make of car to another, for example german cars have one "H" American and Japaneese cars have a different one, Fords, Chevys and Dodges all have sligtly differnt widths on their "H", and dozens of other little things, these the driver doesn't even get a choice on other than take or leave all at once. I'll admit that my study of Human Interface is fairly shallow, as in non-existant, however I do know what works for me, and what works for people I know.
Basicaly just don't do anything that's going to have an unwanted disruptive effect on your coworkers, That doesn't mean that you don't disturb them just make sure that you keep in mind that they can hear you.
By recomending that we fix it you're implying that the current system is broken, I am simply stating that it's NOT BROKEN. Restricting things to much is very broken, not allowing users the flexability to work on the manner that best fits them is broken. Not allowing users to expand past the initial layout is broken. OS X is a very pretty OS, but when I used it I prefered using X apps through X Darwin. I'm not talking about hand crafting a GUI, I'm talking about being able to use a GUI that works with your way of thinking, not all humans think alike, so why try to cram all of them into the same box?
I didn't know you couldn't put it on two different displays, man that sucks, do you know if it works of two users are doing two different displays? Actualy I'll just try it out when I get home, I'll create a second user for that.
Yes, and OSS has several good choices, in KDE and Gnome, they work the way you expect, several of the other window managers work rather well as well, no matter which choice the user choses they can get their work done. Your rant is an utter non-issue, EACH DESKTOP WORKS, and they work with eachother, so you can buy your frosty at wendy's buy your burger at burger king, buy fries at McDonalds, and buy a limeade at sonic (which by the way doing literaly takes a lot of time in drivethroughs)
Because when you obscure one of your tabs it unselects the info in that tab. which sucks. but if you use mid click to or from other apps it works
I had a rant about this elsewhere but you are truyly deserving of the flamage. CARS ARE NOT STANDARDIZED BEYOND BASIC FUNCIONALITY THAT IS TIME CRITICAL. You've said all the things that are standard, and not even the gages are that standard, some cars have Tacheometers, some don't, some have oil pressure gauges, some just have idiot lights, The idiot lights are aranged differently, the cup holders are in different places the switch for the headlight varries hugely.
The default is the shopkeepers advice, each distrobution has a default WM, if you don't like the default, you can try something else, but there IS a default.
NO APPS REQUIRE A WINDOWING INTERFACE!!!!!
Applications do not know what envoronment they are in, they just know that they interface with a server that displays them. as long as you have the libraries the application works. It's not like windows where you can't run a win 98 app on win 95, as long as you have the libraries you don't need anything else.
No, once they are baptised by the water of open source and choice they will open their eyes. They don't hate us, they are ignorant and need to be educated that we even exist. They need to see the light of freedom, and choice, and power. We offer them salvation, a spirutal and etical cleansing, power to take back their computers, to understand their world, and they do not know, they do not choose to wallow in the muck, they do not know another way.
don't worry about it, I'm being overly emotional. I didn't realise you hadn't used GTK+ or QT in a few years. Anyway, the Gnome people and the KDE people fixed that now. Try finking them. You can run Gnome and KDE rootless with X darwin.
Think about it this way, what is there to cause problems? You're using a network transparent display system that doesn't assume there even is a WM or DE, much less that they will do anything for you. The only thing the app knows is that it's got libraries on the client comuter, and it displays on an X server (in many instances on the same computer) The program doesn't care if the X server is running other programs, or even if it's on another computer, it simply runs with the interface it is suposed to.
It's always Middle Mouse, That's built into X anything else is a Toolkit specific cut and paste. Not that the toolkiat specific cut and paste isn't good, but middle click ALWAYS works
I call bullshit. KDE and Gnome now interoperate on a drag and drop level, also you only need to support your app, not the surrounding cruft, You state that you need foo or higher version of GTK, or QT and you only worry about it if a new version breaks backward compatiablity. if you're realy worried you STATICALY LINK the damned Tool Kit into your app Support is no worse than between versoins of windows, in fact it's usualy less of an issue, because Libraries are LESS dependant on exact versions of eachother.
Ok, anyone who's been reading my other posts is going to think I'm being inconsistant, but stick with me. WE WANT JOE SIX PACK. Joe Sixpack brings developers for all sorts of interesting toys to us, like games, it brings us greedy developers, which IMNSHO is a good thing. Greedy developers put out apps that sell, Greedy Developers in the Linux world will have to compete against GNU software, so think about how their need to make a buck is going to drive the software development. That said, we shoudldn't destroy Linux/the Unix Philosophy to get Joe Sixpack, we should teach Joe how cool Linux is on his terms, these are the people for whom "HEY! WATCH THIS" is a part of the everyday vocabulary. they like flash, they like speed, they like polish, basicaly they like chrome. Windows has gone to a pussy sickly interface, the mac has gone all most modern on us, we need to strike while the metal is hot, people are having to chose a new interface, and the metal will get even hotter with longhorn, MS is breaking their own backward compatablity. Why pay $200 for longhorn? I'll give you Linux for FREE and we'll buy a keg for what you would have spent on Longhorn. I've never seen ANYONE have trouble with Linux interfaces after being shown how to use them. and these same people needed to be shown how to use Windows. I have trouble using windows and I use it every day, On Linux, no troubles, everything just works the way I expect it to. Of course when I get a new install, the first thing I do is set my system up so it works the way I expect it to, but hey, what can you do?
The car analaogy people use is utter and complete bullshit, people talk about it as a unified interface, however only one part of the interface is standardised, the petals and the steering wheel. past that every car is different, some are manuals, some are automatics, some shift in the floor, some in the steering column, and don't even get me started on the types and placements of headlight controls. The hood release is in different places, the radio works differently, some have power locks, some don't some have power windows, some don't, some have remote keyless entry some don't, some have power sliding side doors, and the list goes on. CARS ARE NOT CONSISTANT.
That said people still buy cars, in fact they are one of the most popular consumer goods in the world. I think we should take CHOICE from cars, and marketing from cars, but looking at cars as an ideal of consistancy is utter and complete tripe.
Wow, that's a realy great Idea, Unfortunatly I don't have the money to buy computers, even old obsolete ones to do that with, but that's still a great idea. With how cheaply old computers can be had that'll give us anothe prong in the battle against MicroSoft. We've attacked them from above, and from below, now let's slide into another market unfortunatly the market we're sliding into doesn't have the money to command comercial software, but they would be an army worth of beta testers, and usability testers. This could go a long way.
Um, whenever I've used a GTK for windows app it
looks a hell of a lot like a windows app. same
command buttons, same borders, etc. the design
Menus are slightly different, but other than that,
it's fairly transparent to the end user.
Damned straight, we don't need to bow to the pressure to use a sandardised anything, we need to improve our marketing and SELL CHOICE. I don't care if the unwashed masses are put off by choice, give them a good default, make choises easy to find, but also easy to avoid. I personaly love GNOME, but KDE has good points to, do I think any less of a freind of mine who likes KDE? No, but I do love GNOME. I also loved Enlightenment 0.16, and when the E folks come out with their next version I'll be rather willing to try it out. Think of it this way, in everything but computers consumers love choice they like to choose their cars, their airlines, their greasy burgers, after all shouldn't we just standardise on one fast foot resturaunt, then you could get McDonald's fries, Wendy's frosties, Burger King's hamburgers, and Sonic's limeade all at one place, but that doesn't happen, you get 4 different resturaunts that you can choose which food element is most important to you, and go to and get passable choises for the rest of the items consumers understand choice, and they aren't afraid of it. They simply need to be educated about the choices out there.
Um, what's wrong with us wanting to secure otur oil supply? World War 1, World War 2, the Cold War, and the first Gulf ware all show that the supply of oil can be a deciding factor in War, I'm not saying we shouldn't try to reduce our dependancy on oil, however the need for oil is clear cut, and is a reality of our current economic and military realities. Should we drill more of our own oil, YES, should we open up Anwar, YES, should we explore other means of energy, YES, however currently we do need the forign oil. I support Alchohol as a fuel, I support renewable resources, but sometimes you just have to bend to current realities. Washington should stop hamstringing the development of alternitive energy sources, We export huge amounts of grain, we should be exporting technology to grow grain, and use our surplus to cure our energy woes, especialy when you consider that around 10% of planted land is destroyed each year. Well, my rant is begining to lose coherency, so I think I'll stop now.
No, not illegal, you just have to pay royalties to the person who wrote the song. I know several musisians, and many of them do covers.
I actualy like the GTK+ file selector. it's very powerfull, and I like that it makes traversing the direcotry tree easy. Apple liked it enough to steal it and pretty it up in Aqua, so I don't know why people gripe about it.
I think there was an element of sarcasim there, on the other hand, he could be comparing it to Africa, the Arabian Penensula, or southern Asia. Yeah, we be badass, but there are other places that are much more violent.
You should have been using QNX for embeded systems like that. DUH.