Windows does everything assbackwards. I've developed under both. I prefer Linux development. If you want to develop under windows, by all means do so. I like the programs that I've written under windows, I don't even really mind the windows development model, but it's not the same. The way that most people learned how to program in academia is the Unix way. I prefer that way, and I programmed under windows before I ever touched a line of Unix source. Don't call me biased, I run a dual boot. It's simply more natural to develop under Linux/Unix, and quicker, and a whole heck of a lot easier. These OS's were written with developers in mind. I do not get that warm fuzzy feeling when I am working under windows. It has gotten better, but it's still not there yet for developers. Perhaps when they break up, Microsoft will be forced to open the gates a little.
The original Amiga included a lot of technology that is still used today. Where the technology wasn't there yet, they adapted their systems to make what they wanted to work work. Their systems are truly a work of art. I hope that this group has as much talent and heart in it as the original did. They have a lot to live up to. Good luck.
There are several libraries that have ports for both environments. I suggest using one of these if you are developing cross platform, less code to modify. The only time that I would suggest not using them is when you need fast, optimized code.
I have written programs using these tools under windows. The experience is not the same. Windows just does not work like Linux/Unix does. Unix has been molded to fit the C language. Working with external programs, libraries, everything is a basic function call in C, whereas under windows, this is far from true.
C and Unix as they stand fit hand in hand, they were born together. This makes programming on any unix-like platform MUCH easier. There are a ton of libraries to work with that have code that you can see and hammer bugs out of. There are a TON of languages, and more compilers and interpretters than you will ever find under windows. The command line is easier to understand. There is less garbage to mess around with. Pretty much, coding in Linux is coding just like you learned it in school. Coding in windows is, sort of like writing a biography about a person who won't tell you anything about themselves.
Standard USB drivers are hardly what I would call foriegn hardware to them, all hardware is 3rd party, as M$ is a software maker, and USB is supported, they just don't put the drivers on the site because they want you to buy the CDROM, anything else stupid that you're going to say? Sorry, but if you're going to start a flame war, bring it on.
A programmer may have a certain touch, but without the tools of the trade, the algorithms, the formula, the background in theory, you will never cross the bridge from "hacker" to "computer scientist".
Today, I had to install a USB device on a windows 95 machine. The problem, the drivers are only found on the 98 CDROM, which noone at my workplace has. There are patches for 95 to add USB, but this was decidedly not the solution that we wanted. We had to grab the files off some guy's website, thus comitting an act of "piracy." We were completely unable to find the drivers on Microsoft.com, so I e-mailed their support, saying, "What's up with this?" Well, pretty much. The response said something along the lines of "Buy the CD." So, in order to get M$'s software to work, without committing an act of piracy, the recommended solution is to dump more money their way. Go figure.
I can see your point. The original point of this thread was that the syntax of programming languages isn't mired in the past, it's pretty damn good. At any rate, I still think that it is important that a computer scientist understand what these concepts are, and be able to do it at least at a rudimentary level. Doesn't mean that you have to write a "Hello World" and then spend 6 years making it faster, just means that you should know what's going on in your computer.
The history of computer science is the history of mathematicians who studied algorithms with a passion before there was a practical use for them. Much of the work of our ancestors is only useful now. The structure of programming languages is an algorithmic strength. As for the people who are all into optimizing compilers, great guys, but if I have the time and resources to do so, I will always opt to optimize as much as possible. As for you who want to program in natural language, hell, do it all you want, but don't tell me that your interpretted program that a program builder wrote with stock algorithms is running faster than mine written in C/C++ and then hand optimized, life just doesn't work like that. Try running java on a 8080, and then native compiled C code, in 6 months, when the java program finishes running, you can open the envelope that I sent you with the results of the program written in C, ok?
At WVU we don't teach "languages," we teach concepts. All of the perl expertise in the world doesn't make you worth a damn as a computer scientist if you don't learn the fundamentals of computer science. You need to learn the math, big-0 notation, algorithms, theory. These are the important things. If you want someone who is capable of writing mediocre programs, WVU is not the place for them, we want people capable of writing only the best.
Ok, I've been programming since I was about 4. If you count all of the scheme variants and such, I know about 50 different programming languages, and can list them by name. 2nd year at WVU has a programming language theory course in which students have to be fairly proficient in about 10-15 languages. All freshman engineering students are required to take a class in C++ and Matlab. The main reason for the Ada curriculum is textbooks and compilers related to the resolve project. Also, WVU is switching to a JAVA based curriculum in the next 4 years. I just happen to like Ada. If schools teaching C/C++ stuck with enforcing good programming practices, then I would say go for it. I would say go with C, though. C will let you get away with a lot of junk though, and many students could slide through their classes without really understanding the concepts. So, if you want staff checking to make sure that the students typecast, hell, go for it. As for me, I want my students to learn good computer science.
Higher level languages produce slower programs. While I like Python and do all of my web scripting in Perl, if one truly wants to get the most out of their programs, they will optimize in assembly. Faster processors are not a good excuse to blow simple, good computer science out the window.
Too many programmers get stuck in a mode of not actually knowing what's going on with their programs. They come to a university and get smacked in the face with actually having to UNDERSTAND THEIR OWN CODE. The object oriented paradigm is useful in its own right, but learning how to manipulate objects is not learning how to program. Ada is a good intro language because of many factors. For one thing, you have to know what you are doing to do it. If you don't, you're not going to do it. It teaches scope properly, and gives a new programmer a good feeling for how the code flows and what is actually going on. I have heard Ada decried on here as being "cumbersome," if you are a good coder, it isn't, because the only things that you have to do extra in Ada, are the things that you should be doing in C/C++. In other words, the only thing that you have to do extra in Ada, is be good enough to write the program that you are writing.
It's not the initial step into programming that is difficult, it is mastering it. Give me an hour, a good library, and a reasonably intelligent person who has a fairly open mind and high school trig, and I'll have them writing simple games. That doesn't mean that they'll be analyzing algorithms in big-O notation and parsing b-trees. I think that the biggest pitfall for users is viewing computers in the wrong light (Impossible machine) and being unwilling to apply any basic knowledge (when I was a kid, we were booting atari's up in computer labs in my elementary school, and writing programs in BASIC. I know that this happened all across America. Now, you ask someone to type in a password, and it's too much for them to handle, and click on the "send" button, why does it have to be so hard?
You don't get that much on sites such as Yahoo.com. Mostly, I believe that he was referring to everyday lines that we come across. You used to have to wait in line to send a package/buy books at school/so forth. You don't anymore. You still have to wait in line at many government facilities, many of these lines could be reduced similarly... Of course a server will go down under unusual load, just as a line at a gas station will be longer during an energy crisis.
I could imagine heuristics which do a true analysis of the image to determine if it is pornographic, better than looking at the colors, but wouldn't that be an issue in and of itself, since it would take up processor time? People always say, "What would you do with that much processor?" Everything that we're not doing now. In the future, with faster processors, better analysis than this can be done, and instead of "Netnanny," parents will just load software that puts nice black blocks over everything that they're kids can't see. Real time censorship folks. And you wondered what a home supercomputer could be used for.
I think that I am going to start a comic strip about pink little bunnies. Yes, they will be very large, flesh toned, round fat little bunnies, with bright pink bellybuttons, big round ears with sort of black hair in between, maybe a couple of mohawks. Red and blonde hair on a few. Big loving eyes, with red pupils.
Hrmm, this software probably works great already .
Next, I think that I'll do a photo spread on fields of wheat.
(Before you mod this down, read what I wrote, it's a joke about the heuristic).
Wow, maintaining a list of unmaintained things in hopes that someone else will maintain them. I wonder if the author will maintain the list when the unmaintained projects are maintained again. MAINTAINENCE, I JUST BLEW A FUSE IN MY BRAIN!
If the standards are the same, you have more choices. That's the whole argument that backs open standards. While this is an entirely different topic, one could extrapolate this to consider Microsoft's situation where they are purposfully closing off specs, except that what they close off is basic machine operability, whereas this is along the lines of aligning all of the objects in the individual programs (WOW! Now that's open).
Slashdot Mirror
Windows does everything assbackwards. I've developed under both. I prefer Linux development. If you want to develop under windows, by all means do so. I like the programs that I've written under windows, I don't even really mind the windows development model, but it's not the same. The way that most people learned how to program in academia is the Unix way. I prefer that way, and I programmed under windows before I ever touched a line of Unix source. Don't call me biased, I run a dual boot. It's simply more natural to develop under Linux/Unix, and quicker, and a whole heck of a lot easier. These OS's were written with developers in mind. I do not get that warm fuzzy feeling when I am working under windows. It has gotten better, but it's still not there yet for developers. Perhaps when they break up, Microsoft will be forced to open the gates a little.
This just screams application hosting. Lets have a hodown!
The original Amiga included a lot of technology that is still used today. Where the technology wasn't there yet, they adapted their systems to make what they wanted to work work. Their systems are truly a work of art. I hope that this group has as much talent and heart in it as the original did. They have a lot to live up to. Good luck.
There are several libraries that have ports for both environments. I suggest using one of these if you are developing cross platform, less code to modify. The only time that I would suggest not using them is when you need fast, optimized code.
I have written programs using these tools under windows. The experience is not the same. Windows just does not work like Linux/Unix does. Unix has been molded to fit the C language. Working with external programs, libraries, everything is a basic function call in C, whereas under windows, this is far from true.
C and Unix as they stand fit hand in hand, they were born together. This makes programming on any unix-like platform MUCH easier. There are a ton of libraries to work with that have code that you can see and hammer bugs out of. There are a TON of languages, and more compilers and interpretters than you will ever find under windows. The command line is easier to understand. There is less garbage to mess around with. Pretty much, coding in Linux is coding just like you learned it in school. Coding in windows is, sort of like writing a biography about a person who won't tell you anything about themselves.
Standard USB drivers are hardly what I would call foriegn hardware to them, all hardware is 3rd party, as M$ is a software maker, and USB is supported, they just don't put the drivers on the site because they want you to buy the CDROM, anything else stupid that you're going to say? Sorry, but if you're going to start a flame war, bring it on.
A programmer may have a certain touch, but without the tools of the trade, the algorithms, the formula, the background in theory, you will never cross the bridge from "hacker" to "computer scientist".
Today, I had to install a USB device on a windows 95 machine. The problem, the drivers are only found on the 98 CDROM, which noone at my workplace has. There are patches for 95 to add USB, but this was decidedly not the solution that we wanted. We had to grab the files off some guy's website, thus comitting an act of "piracy." We were completely unable to find the drivers on Microsoft.com, so I e-mailed their support, saying, "What's up with this?" Well, pretty much. The response said something along the lines of "Buy the CD." So, in order to get M$'s software to work, without committing an act of piracy, the recommended solution is to dump more money their way. Go figure.
Sounds like an interesting idea. If I were in the teaching profession, I would pursue it.
I can see your point. The original point of this thread was that the syntax of programming languages isn't mired in the past, it's pretty damn good. At any rate, I still think that it is important that a computer scientist understand what these concepts are, and be able to do it at least at a rudimentary level. Doesn't mean that you have to write a "Hello World" and then spend 6 years making it faster, just means that you should know what's going on in your computer.
The history of computer science is the history of mathematicians who studied algorithms with a passion before there was a practical use for them. Much of the work of our ancestors is only useful now. The structure of programming languages is an algorithmic strength. As for the people who are all into optimizing compilers, great guys, but if I have the time and resources to do so, I will always opt to optimize as much as possible. As for you who want to program in natural language, hell, do it all you want, but don't tell me that your interpretted program that a program builder wrote with stock algorithms is running faster than mine written in C/C++ and then hand optimized, life just doesn't work like that. Try running java on a 8080, and then native compiled C code, in 6 months, when the java program finishes running, you can open the envelope that I sent you with the results of the program written in C, ok?
Not very large packaging, and even better, you can get slackware :-)
At WVU we don't teach "languages," we teach concepts. All of the perl expertise in the world doesn't make you worth a damn as a computer scientist if you don't learn the fundamentals of computer science. You need to learn the math, big-0 notation, algorithms, theory. These are the important things. If you want someone who is capable of writing mediocre programs, WVU is not the place for them, we want people capable of writing only the best.
Ok, I've been programming since I was about 4. If you count all of the scheme variants and such, I know about 50 different programming languages, and can list them by name. 2nd year at WVU has a programming language theory course in which students have to be fairly proficient in about 10-15 languages. All freshman engineering students are required to take a class in C++ and Matlab. The main reason for the Ada curriculum is textbooks and compilers related to the resolve project. Also, WVU is switching to a JAVA based curriculum in the next 4 years. I just happen to like Ada. If schools teaching C/C++ stuck with enforcing good programming practices, then I would say go for it. I would say go with C, though. C will let you get away with a lot of junk though, and many students could slide through their classes without really understanding the concepts. So, if you want staff checking to make sure that the students typecast, hell, go for it. As for me, I want my students to learn good computer science.
With all due respect, someone who is clever with assembly will always be able to outrun an optimizing compiler.
You really think that you couldn't get someone to type.
void main()
{
seed(time);
random();
...
yeah, chunky pseudocode, but like, I think that I could get a monkey to type something akin to that in an hour if I was sitting with them.
Higher level languages produce slower programs. While I like Python and do all of my web scripting in Perl, if one truly wants to get the most out of their programs, they will optimize in assembly. Faster processors are not a good excuse to blow simple, good computer science out the window.
Too many programmers get stuck in a mode of not actually knowing what's going on with their programs. They come to a university and get smacked in the face with actually having to UNDERSTAND THEIR OWN CODE. The object oriented paradigm is useful in its own right, but learning how to manipulate objects is not learning how to program. Ada is a good intro language because of many factors. For one thing, you have to know what you are doing to do it. If you don't, you're not going to do it. It teaches scope properly, and gives a new programmer a good feeling for how the code flows and what is actually going on. I have heard Ada decried on here as being "cumbersome," if you are a good coder, it isn't, because the only things that you have to do extra in Ada, are the things that you should be doing in C/C++. In other words, the only thing that you have to do extra in Ada, is be good enough to write the program that you are writing.
It's not the initial step into programming that is difficult, it is mastering it. Give me an hour, a good library, and a reasonably intelligent person who has a fairly open mind and high school trig, and I'll have them writing simple games. That doesn't mean that they'll be analyzing algorithms in big-O notation and parsing b-trees. I think that the biggest pitfall for users is viewing computers in the wrong light (Impossible machine) and being unwilling to apply any basic knowledge (when I was a kid, we were booting atari's up in computer labs in my elementary school, and writing programs in BASIC. I know that this happened all across America. Now, you ask someone to type in a password, and it's too much for them to handle, and click on the "send" button, why does it have to be so hard?
You don't get that much on sites such as Yahoo.com. Mostly, I believe that he was referring to everyday lines that we come across. You used to have to wait in line to send a package/buy books at school/so forth. You don't anymore. You still have to wait in line at many government facilities, many of these lines could be reduced similarly... Of course a server will go down under unusual load, just as a line at a gas station will be longer during an energy crisis.
I could imagine heuristics which do a true analysis of the image to determine if it is pornographic, better than looking at the colors, but wouldn't that be an issue in and of itself, since it would take up processor time? People always say, "What would you do with that much processor?" Everything that we're not doing now. In the future, with faster processors, better analysis than this can be done, and instead of "Netnanny," parents will just load software that puts nice black blocks over everything that they're kids can't see. Real time censorship folks. And you wondered what a home supercomputer could be used for.
I think that I am going to start a comic strip about pink little bunnies. Yes, they will be very large, flesh toned, round fat little bunnies, with bright pink bellybuttons, big round ears with sort of black hair in between, maybe a couple of mohawks. Red and blonde hair on a few. Big loving eyes, with red pupils.
Hrmm, this software probably works great already .
Next, I think that I'll do a photo spread on fields of wheat.
(Before you mod this down, read what I wrote, it's a joke about the heuristic).
Wow, maintaining a list of unmaintained things in hopes that someone else will maintain them. I wonder if the author will maintain the list when the unmaintained projects are maintained again. MAINTAINENCE, I JUST BLEW A FUSE IN MY BRAIN!
If the standards are the same, you have more choices. That's the whole argument that backs open standards. While this is an entirely different topic, one could extrapolate this to consider Microsoft's situation where they are purposfully closing off specs, except that what they close off is basic machine operability, whereas this is along the lines of aligning all of the objects in the individual programs (WOW! Now that's open).