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Line Slaying: The Final Frontier
Technology almost always works in unpredictable ways. Sometimes the fanciest and most revolutionary stuff leaves the oddest legacies affecting people in small but meaningful ways. People know about online sex, crackers and e-trading, but few credit the Net with one of its potentially greatest benefits: the Net is a natural born Lineslayer.
And the biggest remaining lines on Earth form around government.
One of the last great frontiers awaiting transformation by the Net, government is surely the most reactionary and least innovative sector of the economy or public life. Bovine as it is, it is one of the most lucrative computing markets in the world. Online business analysts have been drooling for years over government e-business, the vast majority of it still up for grabs. Forrester Research estimates that local governments alone collect $450 billion annually in fines alone, mostly in person or by mail.
Convenience isn't the only benefit to citizens: think of the bureaucratic, paper and postal savings that would come from issuing permits and certificates and collecting fines on the Net. E-government can also begin to set up the infrastructure to give governments and voters the confidence and experience to begin online voting, polling and town meetings. As companies like Ford, Delta and Intel begin giving employees free computers and Net access as a fringe benefit of employment, universal access to the Net -- thus to digital democracy -- is no longer a fantasy.
In fact, it's astonishing that so few state or national politicians have yet figured out what a great political issue it is that governments aren't serving citizens by wiring up as rapidly as possible.
Neo-Luddites are forever lamenting the lack of human contact the Internet has wrought (remember-when-you-got-to-say-hi-to-the-bank-teller?). Anybody lost in tech support or telephone hell can sympathize. But some forms of human contact can be blessedly dispensed with -- like lines.
Online banking is killing off the lines at tellers windows. Electronic toll devices are shortening lines at highway toll booths. E-ticketing makes it possible to stroll into movie megaplexes, stick your credit card in an ATM-like machine and whisk past all the suckers waiting at the box office. E-ticketing at airports can save hours at check-in lines, dragging along heavy baggage. Some lucky college students can skip once-dreaded queues by registering online. Shoppers who don't love circling crowded malls for hours now have the option of online shopping. People who value human contact in these contexts can still have it, and are welcome to it. But few people in the 21st Century will be lamenting the death of waiting in lines.
But the Net hasn't yet busted the lines in the worst, most bureaucratic places. Businesses are usually under pressure to be responsive to their consumers; they embrace transactional software because it lowers their costs and provides convenient service while eliminating lines. Government, which ought to be especially responsive to its constituents, isn't.
Some Net start-ups who want to drag government into the 21st Century are already in operation -- like New York-based http://www.govWorks.com and Atlanta's http://www.ezgov.com. But by and large, government has been slow to digitize, suspicious of security issues, lagging in leadership or innovation, lacking enough staffers with strong computing sensibilities.
But this state of affairs can't last. One day soon, politicians will figure out that they can score with voters by recognizing that digital technologies can sometimes improve life, especially by eliminating those nightmarish motor vehicle and permit lines. This could impress the public even more than bullying librarians to install blocking programs to keep Johnny off the Playboy Web site.
According to the Wall Street Journal, some cities -- like Stamford, Conn. and Springfield, Mass. -- have begun allowing electronic payments of taxes, permits, and utility bills.
But most local and state governments don't do much business online, or allow their residents to, a particularly relevant reality in cities where grueling lines are facts of life for busy taxpayers.
For once, an enormous windfall for software and computer makers may actually prove likewise a boon to citizens, assuming sluggish and self-interested bureaucrats can be prodded along. Doing civic business on the Net may also shock government into entering the 21st century. Lineslaying probably wasn't a benefit the founders of the Net had in mind, but it might turn out to be one of its most appreciated and unforeseen contributions.
DMV has really cleaned up their act here. They seemed to revamp all the stations around me, less wait times, etc. I just renewed my registration online, and should be getting my new stickers in a matter of days. Was a snap. And a dollar cheaper. Also being able to look up the available vanity plates online is pretty cool..
Wow, the "technology state" is actually getting something right. !
BilldaCat
never going to happen in the UK though, we love queuing too much :)
Troc's dubious podcast and blog: http://www.trocnet.net
Shine on, you crazy diamond.
50 Internal server error
The server is too busy, please try back again later.
Or how about this famous one:
Connection timed out.
Oh, the lines are still there..
This won't happen anytime soon. If anyone here has ever worked for the government, or atleast the state departments which handle most of our relevant junk. You should know that this is far far far far from happening. There are things called budgets and Jobs. The State Governemnts will be reluctant to do this because no one wants to spend more money on new technology that will require fewer but higher paid people to be employed. Plus they all live off of paper work. Im not kidding when I say this. but there are People out there who Live to create a bueracratic Hell for other employees. (Just try and get that Request for more Staples Filled.. You have to fill out Lots and lots of forms!!!) Heh..
--------========+++Dont Feed The Lab Techs+++========--------
Posted by 11223:
I think that Katz needs to read Kurzwiel's "The Age of Spiritual Machines" - in which he explains how the technologists are like the Neo-Luddites, and are just as weary about the application of the technology. Remember, Katz, just because we're Geeks , that doesn't mean that we like all of the new-fangled e-commerce hoopla. Slaying the physical lines? We don't all stay inside all of the time. Often we'd rather go out than shop for something online. While items that were traditionally done through mail and telephone can be replaced with the computer, the computer can't replace a real-life exerience - of standing in line and talking to the chick in front of you.
Jon, what are you talking about? Which Government (there are some non-US readers here, I think)? Throwing stones at "Government" isn't fair -- there are lots of uses of the Net by government to make your life easier. And, um, they built it.
You can get a weather report without waiting for the evening news or the radio to get to it, you can get social security retirement estimates, and file you taxes and your student loan applications without moving your fat ass out of your chair.
Next, please.
Not to ask an obvious question, but when the hell is the last time you've been out in public?- --
----------------------------------------
that Jon had a bad day at the New Jersey DMV yesterday.
This is another view of the world.
Some state governments, particularly Massachusetts, are making an effort to bring more and more transactions online. For example, take a look at the Registry of Motor Vehicles home page. You can change registration information, get replacement licenses issued, and even pay your tickets online. And let's not forget that many states, and even Uncle Sam himself, are allowing people to file and pay their taxes electronically.
I assume that by "line", you actually mean "queue"? The Internet, after all, is really nothing but a bunch of lines.
As for government automation, I don't know how it is in the US but here in Europe you can do almost everything via snail-mail. The only time you would be required to actually go to a place would be to show your passport or other identification papers or perhaps a contract or deed, and I really can't see how the Internet could help out here.
Also, almost all official forms are available in PDF format, at least where I live. What's it like in the US?
Any technology which is distinguishable from magic is not sufficiently advanced.
Maybe we can get them to start accepting speeding tickets online (Not that I have any:-))
"See, we plan ahead! That way, we never have to do anything now."
The city in which I live (Yellowknife in the Northwest Territories) has a website where you can pay all your (city) bills online.
Here's the part where you can pay your bills.
In fact I think we just got a 5 million dollar grant in order to improve and expand this program.
I don't think I've ever had to queue to pay a utility bill - I just post it to them. Drivers' licences come by post, and anyway you only get them once. Why is it so different in America?
I would have to say no. At least not hastily. The idea the government turning its system over to an electrical one, one that is designed by a bidder who put in the lowest bid most likely, puts some fear into me. That fear is made worse by the idea that it would possibly be run by an OS which is not ready for that kind of task. Namely, Microsoft, of course, but to some extent even Linux.* I can hear the moans and anger from consumers as their social security number is lost or their DMV information is corrupt due to an error in Microsoft SQL tables.
If it were to happen, I would hope that the lowest bidder doing the job would put the specs of what they propose online for the general (and geek) public to see and recieve feedback based on those specs. That way, I would feel more comfortable with putting valuable personal data in the hands of 1's and 0's instead of paper.
*As for my comments about the OS', please understand that I am not slamming Linux. I use it in a productive environment, and I have had no problems. The scale of what is proposed here, though, would make me think twice even about the mighty Penguin.
Bryan R.
Bryan R.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, or $12.50 as seen on eBay.....
You make a series of valid points, but how will we protect people who use these online services against hackers and scam artists? Before we go off on some pipe dream of an online government, we should think security first.
Phallic Symbols in LOTR
The state I live in has DNA samples on file they took without my consent at birth. I can't *wait* until the government has efficient online access to those files.
You don't get that much on sites such as Yahoo.com. Mostly, I believe that he was referring to everyday lines that we come across. You used to have to wait in line to send a package/buy books at school/so forth. You don't anymore. You still have to wait in line at many government facilities, many of these lines could be reduced similarly... Of course a server will go down under unusual load, just as a line at a gas station will be longer during an energy crisis.
Eh...
Recently I had to get a new (german) passport, since my old one expired. Remembering my last experience with german bureaucrycy (:-) I really dreaded my visit to the office, fearing to spend the larger part of the morning on some benches or waiting in a line. The fact that I had to draw a number and that this number was several tens larger than what was currently on display added to my fears.
Imagine my surprise when the office ringed the bells and advanced the numbers in steps approximately 20 seconds apart. Waiting no longer than ten minutes (on comfy leather chairs, not in a line) my number showed up and I entered the actual office. The processing of my application for a new passport took only a few seconds, and I was even able to pay with my card. Next to my desk, one of the public servants had problems with her computer.
Even more impressive was what I observed on the desk next to mine, where a public servant had problems with her computer. Not only was she able to summon a technician who helped her to fix the problem almost immediately, but obviously there were procedures to handle this case, as the other desks where taking over her duties during her downtime.
All this had no longer a feel of bureaucracy to it. In fact service was faster and felt more professional than many privately owned companies I have seen from the inside, except perhaps McDonalds. It was frighteningly efficient.
© Copyright 2000 Kristian Köhntopp
We've had the technology for close to ten years now. It's not going to happen because the people in power fear the technology.
On a side note, this would probably bring us one step closer to Direct Democracy instead of this whole "elected representation" thing.
Beware TPB
New York State also offers on-line registration renewal and vanity plate service (Orders and lookup).
They may move slowly... but at least they're moving.
--You will rephrase your request for me to go to hell. Goto statements are not acceptable programming constructs
Who's the white writin' geek that's a superstar to all the freaks?
KATZ!
Darn right!
Who is the man that would write a book for his brother man?
KATZ!
Can you dig it?
Who's the cat that won't stop yakkin' when there's evil people hackin'?
KATZ!
Right On!
They say this cat Katz is a bad writer...
SHUT YOUR MOUTH!
I'm only talkin' 'bout Katz.
THEN WE CAN DIG IT!
He's a complicated man but no one understands him like his fan club.
JOHN KATZ!
---
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
Forget the low bidder take - plenty of US governmental agentcies are requiring Win95/98/2000/NT as the OS for various RFQ/RFBs "Windows? Well of course, it's the standard and it's the most powerful and secure and stable around. Bill said so" Think of that next time you dial 911 ...
Working for a Univerisity is probably the first good use of the Net for gov't. Already there's a rush for Univ's to put all student information and applications on-line. Its demanded by students, so to draw the best, the Universities must comply. And we do here.
I think what is lacking most is consistency between how and what is implemented. Some places seem to allow you a one-stop website for just about any city business, others you might be luckly enough to find what phone number to call, to find city hall, and then go stand in line. Should there be a set of Guidelines that all government agencies follow as to what and what is not available over the web?
Any kind of buffering is a queue. The webserver could maintain a queue of incoming connections and serve them in order. This is done becuase of limitations in bandwidth, just like you queue at the bank becuase of the limited number of tellers around! THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE!
But the issue of fairplay comes in. It is somehow fair or just to serve queues in a First-In-First-Out operation. Go to a bank queue and try jumping it. You will get hostile stares. But use a technological means to jump queues on the internet, and nobody is the wiser. Software can be set up to prefer to serve women over men for example. Since you don't read the source, nobody would know if this was fair or not. Why did your online application fail because "the quota was exceeded"? Is it becuase you have a slow 56k modem while the other guy is behind a T1?
So putting such transactions online make lower the transparency of government. This is a problem that deserves to be looked at.
I was married recently and spent one of the most gruesome hours of my life waiting in line at the NYC clerk's office for a license. The process consisted of filling out a form by hand, waiting in line for an hour, where 2 of 8 windows were open, and then watching as a woman completely incapable of reading, typing, or using a computer copied my info into some sort of Windows-based application. In the end she misspelled my occupation (I am now a "mathematcian") and entirely missed the back of the form. Except for paying (money orders only!) and presenting ID, the entire process could have been accomplished with a single web-based form. I imagine, even in the union-busting Giuliani era, that the civil employees union would fight any attempts at progress or service tooth and nail, and that it'll be a long time before change comes here to New York.
If someone puts it online, someone else will try to crack it. Since the information they're dealing with is private and must be Web-accessible, the possibility of cracking is that much more attractive.
On the optimistic side, could the government finally realize that strong crypto is necessary? I'm not entrusting my SSN to a 40-bit connection!
-- LoonXTall
~~~LXT~~~
Life is like a computer program: anything that can't happen, will.
The net is killing off lines everywhere? I think Mr. Katz is short for article ideas this month.
Let me tell you, this Internet thing has not made the morning commute on I-494, I-94, or I-35W any friggin easier. There simply is no e-commerce Beowolf cluster solution to solve Minnesota's season of road construction. Nope, no revolution here, so hang up and drive.
Well, with the federal government (important distinction between them and local governments!), you can pay taxes online, which helps cut down on wait time. Plus, you get your refund faster, which is great.
With local governments (In NY, at least), it is more difficult to pay taxes, but you can do other things. You can start petitions, request services (such as having your pot-hole infested street fixed), and even write to your local mayor/borough president.
Nothing wonderfully amazing, but certainly helpful in spreading information and making things easier to access. I know, it seems so wrong for the government to do such things, but hey, it happens.
~Panda!
I just renewed the registration for my boat trailer the other day over the internet.
At least here in Massachusetts you can renew online and you get a $5 discount to boot.
http://www.magnet.state.ma.us/rmv
Here in Denmark we had a county who put a poll on their website asking the community how they felt about building a new ice hockey stadium.
The poll was taken down quite fast though, when some guy in the IT department found out that the majority of votes came from the mayors office.
It turned out that the mayor had personally spent an entire evening clicking the "Yes"-button over and over again (I think it was around 150 times or so).
The morale?
I interviewed 18 months ago with Access Indiana, the company that does the www.state.in.us website. They're doing some great things: you can of course renew your license plates online, you can fill out applications for various permits (i.e. the permit for house builders to connect a driveway to the street), lawyers can browse transcripts of other hearings to look for precedents, etc. It's pretty cool. My only beef is if you have a collegiate logo license plate you still have to go to the DMV in person.
(Yes I say DMV even though it's called the BMV in Indiana. It's DMV where I'm from and BMV sounds stupid anyway)
Well, in my town, you can pay speeding/parking tickets over the phone with your credit card, and Winnipeg is usually about 5 years or so behind most tech trends, so I imagine it is pretty common.
In fact, for almost all of my bills (including taxes), I've been able to set up either automatic payments from my bank account or my visa. The Canadian gov has had direct deposit for tax returns and GST rebates for years as well so between all that the lines have been slain (for those who wanted them to be) for years before the web even became trendy.
The telephone system and credit cards are the real line slayers and have been around for a long time. Paying from a webpage is just a new variation.
Dana
Speaking purely from my own flawed memory, I seem to remember that governments collect an awful lot of fines on late taxes (random speculative perhaps-from-memory figure: half a billion pounds), and so on. Is it really to their advantage to lose this revenue by enabling Joe Citizen to pay on time?
just a quick cynical point... =)
--Remove SPAM from my address to mail me
Some lucky college students can skip once-dreaded queues by registering online.
Oh, those very lucky college students. I go to school at a small liberal arts university (shouldn't be too hard to figure out from the email address). I work in the tech dept. there, and I'm on the student government.
We don't have online registration, but it's been proposed. It's a bad idea. Here's why:
Right now, students register by getting to the Registrar's office at 9:00 AM on a specific day (one day for each year). Everybody actually gets there at 12 or 1 the night before and camps out. Why? To get into the really good classes ( or the bad ones like stats that everyone needs). It's first-come-first-serve, but if you really want a class, it's your initiative that gets you in.
The online systems that most schools use give everyone a random priority number. It takes away your power to be that guy who camps out to get into the class (or get those Star Wars tickets) before everyone else.
I'd rather deal with the line than not have control.
Does he mean "queues" when he says "lines"?
What on earth has this got to do with anything?
arnald
What I'm waiting for is where I can walk into a grocery store with a big trenchcoat lined with pockets and just stuff myself full of various food products like that guy does in the IBM commercial. (The only problem is frozen products, but then I'll probably get some insulated pockets or something.)
To pay all I have to do is walk through a metal-detector thingy that picks up all of the price codes for everything I bought and automatically charges me. Shopping is made so easy that the man even forgets to pick up his receipt. (In the commercial up to this point you think the shopper is really a shoplifter, and the guard says "Sir!! ...You forgot your receipt.")
--
Eric is chisled like a Greek Godess
marotti.com
So instead of visiting some government office, filling out 12 forms in triplicate, and then being told you filled out the wrong forms, we'll now get to do that all online.
With a few exceptions, government web sites are as byzantine and difficult to navigate as a voicemail maze. Most of them look to be built with Front Page, many have 500K image files, and the forms are only slightly easier to deal with than the paper ones.
So while it will be less time-consuming to deal with govt stuff online, it will probably still be just as frustrating relative to dealing with the private sector online.
Here in Sweden we have one government agency who has fully adapted to the World Wide Web experience. The RSV (Riksskatteverket), the Swedish Tax Service. You can log on to their site and download tax forms and brochures in PDF format. Often you can fill these forms out inside Acrobat Reader and print them. Then it is a simple matter to sign them and send them by snailmail to the RSV (sorry, there is no elecronic signature service yet, but I bet that will be implemented soon too).
You can even go through a fully on-line tax-calculation form, which calculates how much tax you owe. Brilliant (though rather discouraging)!
In fact, a lot of government agencies in Sweden have adapted to the Internet. You can check your student loan at the CSN (Centrala Studiestöds Nämnden), send for applications and so forth.
If nothing else, this shows that these "lines" as is mensioned in the article, can indeed be reduced, and that there really is no reason not to. It takes a lot of work initially, I bet, but saves it for both people in general and the government in the long run.
"War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." - Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914)
To the score or so of counterexamples which have already been posted, I'll add the Indiana Bureau of Motor Vehicles. I renewed my license plate online this year, and the sticker arrived in the mail a mere two days later.
The lack of research here is very sloppy, but sadly typical of Katz.
Never take moderation advice from sigs, including this one.
I remember registering for classes at the U of Minnesota in '94(whoo! old school!). Heck, I was doing that in lynx.
It didn't make it any easier. I was still looking at huge printouts from dot matrix printers on the wall in one of the buildings. I still had to go to the registrar's office and wait in line to use a 1980-era terminal to HOPEFULLY get the classes I wanted.
Their slogan should of "now make class registration a pain in the ass, ONLINE!". Maybe me getting kicked out of the U for a bad semester was a good thing to me.
Where's your source, Jon?
According to this FDIC site, the number bank branches increased faster than the population in 1999. So there isn't any evidence that the Internet is killing off visiting banks in person (yet).
Here's a link to my local government website:
HantsNet - Hampshire County Council UK
Apparently Bill Gates the Antichrist has praised it as a shining example to governments everywhere...
...Yeeuck!
But joking apart, at least the poor dears are attempting something has been useful. Maybe they ought to get it in a better organised format
One company not mentioned by the article (that I have a personal interest in) is http://govhost.com We went live June 16th for the city of Canton Georgia. http://www.canton-georgia.com
If web use was an option, it'd cut down on lines because some people could use it. Especially if people could use this to submit forms (tax, license applications of various kinds, and so forth) that they currently need to stand in queues to fill out. Further information (researching your own tax status and other personal records) probably shouldn't be available online for security reasons. While filling out forms online might me more suceptible to tampering or invasion of privacy than filling them out in a government office, those people who are concerned can always go to an office and fill out the forms in person. Web use could be an option.
Do something about world hunger. Click here
Not to be rude...but this entire article strikes me as a great big "DUH?".
Isn't this obvious? The beauty of the web currently is that it eliminates location and time as restrictions in activity. Not only can I register for my classes from the comfort of my pajamas in my dorm room, but I can do so at 4am! I don't need to wait outside my department for hours to make sure that I get the classes I need. Accessibility is indeed key, and the web is an outstanding medium (assuming you have a half-decent net connection) to provide accessibility to all.
But that could be just the tip of the iceburg...those are obvious uses of the web.
What I see as the great possibilities offered by the web is the opportunity for process re-engineering and stream-lining. Individuals and organizations will quickly realize that processes and procedures that worked well on pencil and paper don't neccessarily translate well to a web environment. In putting features onto the web, developers are forced (hopefully) to evaluate those procedures and (again hopefully) break them down into managable parts.
These parts are the key...because I've found that there are staggering amounts of duplication in today's world. Each business and individual seems intent on reinventing the proverbial wheel, which results in enormous amounts of wasted work. So let's talk components instead...work off the established work of others (hmm...I smell something like Open-Source!) and spend the majority of development time concentrating on the true focus of a project or activity! That leads to a cost-effective approach to development because the time spent on a project is really devoted to that project and not the underlying foundation of it!
With the help of standards (perferably open ones) in business and technology, the field is ripe for integration and extension. I see the web as the medium in which this can happen most easily...and that's (IMHO) the future of the web. Look at XML for example...
Sure, a $450 billion market is certainly attractive, but there's much more out there =)
There is no such thing as a 'good day' when you go to the NJ DMV. All of them are in out-of-the-way locations, so that if your car has been, say, impounded for an unpaid parking ticket (and yes, NJ does do this), you have to travel to middle-of-nowhere to get it. (This has recently changed slightly, as one or two have opened in places that don't require a three mile hike from a bus stop.)
Then you get to wait for, on average, two hours, to SUBMIT your forms. If there's an error, you may get to fix it there, or you may have to wait through the line again, depending on the person you deal with.
Then you wait again for them to process it.
I had to get a picture ID (No car, no driver's license) a few months ago. It took all day in a DMV office to get it. This was for a second time, because they don't say on the information line what counts as 'valid ID' and apparently a still-valid out-of-state picture ID doesn't count. (A W-2 does; a birth certificate does. Go figure. ) This is how I know this.
----
Brazil has decided you're cute.
I've heard many countries are already doing away with conventional weapons, and are carrying out border disputes via massive games of Unreal Tournament and Quake III.
It really has eliminated much of the waiting and inconvenience we get with today's warfare, though it's not completey fair because the countries with broadband connections are winning almost every conflict.
Also, I've heard that Iraq is getting a reputation for just hiding out in one shadowy corner and blasting people as they go by.
Phallic Symbols in LOTR
Yeah, Jon, that is a great sounding idea. The only issue is, how do we propose to remedy the digital divide that will separate the predominantly suburban, middle and upper class families with home computers from the poor inner city ones that don't generally have them?
It seems to me that the people who most need access to gov't services won't be any better served by this remedy. I mean, yes, it would be nice to renew your license online, but food stamps, welfare checks, etc.? Do we want to make it any more complicated or difficult or challenging for people to get to these services?
Let's face it: the digital revolution embraces those with the wealth and education to utilize it. Making these services electronic threatens to further cut off those at an economic and educational disadvantage.
Now, this shouldn't mean that we don't eventually do it. But let's make sure that people have universal access and training before we start making life more difficult for those who have enough problems already.
I think Chuck D. sums it up best : "There are gonna be a lot of people picking electronic cotton and digging digital ditches."
if there are no more lines for me to wait in, how am I going to get my magazine reading done? would I have to actually buy them?
This is the best comment here yet.
Some people are pretending that downloading the Starr report and having to wait a few more minutes for it (during which time you can still put it in the background and work on something else) is the same thing as the hours of wait and pain you go through at a DMV. Get real. There truly is practically no wait (no more than it takes to download the product information and then make a decision and implement it... which all has to happen (slightly differently) when you are in line as well.)
Go to the DMV and tell me which soulless automatons you'd rather deal with.
-Ben
The main thing I see standing in the way is the same thing I've seen in any non-profit company, anytime they try something like this it spirals out of scope very fast. A simple web site becomes $30k+ in hardware, internal servers that store _static_ data have to have mirror RAIDed drives (to protect the backups?) It gets out of hand fast, the budget soars, and as the concepts get farther and farther out of the staffs limited scope of knowledge, things seem less and less possible. It's a mess.
:)
Until government jobs become more attractive to talented programmers, and comfy IT managers that have been there since before the term 'IT' existed retire, I don't see much happening. Until then, the inflexable infrastructure will remain (can you say COBOL ) and any advancements will be more cruft.
Yes I _used_ to work for government, can you tell?
It's that they stink.
Nothing new here, but I echo the comments that say "Well, there's tons of stuff online, but it's loaded with large graphics, broken links, etc." And worse than that, typical governmentspeak language, contradictions, endless loops. It's the Web equivalent of calling the department of motor vehicles in my state (Maryland), to be shuffled through the voice mail haze. Messages are usually out of date, or the voice mail menu's been 'upgraded' but most menus haven't caught up, or they simply don't have the answers you need effectively indexed. The arrogance of power strikes again.
It actually *is* faster I find (and despite some of the criticism that Jon's getting here) to go to the DMV in person (about 40 minutes drive, but I have a radio), wait in interminable lines to talk to rude people, and drive home than it is to get satisfaction or information not evident on the Web site by any other means.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Just took a course in Law And Society. Interesting class, actually. Taught by, of all things, an IP Lawyer. (Yes, I actually screwed up and exposed my opinion of his profession. I've never been so profusely embarassed ;-)
;-)
One of the books we studied was The Process Is The Punishment. One of its central tenets is, when you get down to it, the bureaucracy isn't accidental or undesired. It's part of the process of criminal law, meant to break down and assault those caught in its maw.
The lines that Katz complains about aren't just there accidentally. They enforce discipline, respect, and fear. Fear of a wasted day, fear of an inexplicable fine, fear of a missing sheet of paper.
If you never had to wait in line, maybe you'd never realize there was a government out there who could do much, much worse to you if you didn't pay your taxes.
Think of DMV as the PR branch for the IRS.
Yours Truly,
Dan Kaminsky
DoxPara Research
http://www.doxpara.com
Remember, Katz, just because we're Geeks , that doesn't mean that we like all of the new-fangled e-commerce hoopla.
There's little I can stand less than the "magic bullet" attitude of so many businesses to e-commerce. Let's face it: If your business sucks, taking it online just means you get to suck that much more publicly. Jamie Zawinski once wrote "Open source does work, but it is most definitely not a panacea," and the same is true here.
Personally I don't think e-commerce will really take off until it starts generating benefits for non-Internet users. Things like:
So when do I get what I want?
-- Old Man Kensey
This is somthing I've ben thinking about for a while, and I agree with Katz. Government hasn't got it right yet. In SA (yes, where I live, study, work and vote) we had at one stage a really good series of government web sites. Unfortunately, they haven't scaled well (I blame EDS, but then I would) and go down frequently. Worse still, the content is all out of date. The policy of the electoral commission (for example) is to only update site material when they deem it to be relevent - which is problably juts before an election. Now I'm involved in politics, and when I want to know what the boundaries of a seat are, I want to be able to look up current content on a webpage. And the electoral commission has got its head stuck so far up its ass it's not prepared to make that information available on the web. Get with the times dickheads! But most other departments fail to do their websites justice, also.
:). Maybe that's the problem :) :)
So a large part of the problem is government culture. I have never worked for the government and have no plans to do so
But I believe that there is a more significant barrier. And that is the approaches used by people to web design. The problem is that a government department will outsource their web design. A company will go away and give them back a beautiful site. But no means to administer it. What government (and most people who get sites professionally designed) need is a decent backend administration engine. I believe something that simple (well it's not *that* simple to do properly, but it's no huge barrier) is one of the biggest barriers to busines being effective on the web atm. Seriously.
Doing those online admin engines is what I do professionally. If you need a web dev with good skills in the area drop me a line, because I could use a change of venue and pay rise. (and sleep)
Much of this post isn't coherent. I'm tired. But this is something I've been thinking about for a while, and I didn't want to miss the opportunity to post.
Believe with me, my saplings.
Previously grantees had had to submit paper forms to apply for grants. If the form was incomplete or incorrect, there was a turn around time of a week or two. Now people can simply fill out their applications on the Web (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov) with all the ease of creating a /. account.
Also, to actually receive their money, grantees in the past had to dial in to a modem bank. A dropped connection or other error could cause great confusion as to the status of a financial transaction. Again, these functions were moved over to the Web, which has made grantees' lives much easier.
OJP is only one example. I believe that if one surveys gov't agencies at any level many will be found to have a significant web presence. This is especially true in affluent jurisdictions and with "customer service" types of agencies like OJP or the local DMV (Virginia's has an excellent website).
E-Gov't is well on it's way, from what I have seen on the inside. The gov't just moves more slowly than the private sector (duh.).
BDew
"Fifty million Americans can't be wrong," said Rep. Billy Tauzin. Gore - 50,999,897 Bush - 50,456,002
California is also doing some good things. The transportation department provides information on road conditions online.
Yep. Just got new vanity plates, renewed my registration for two years, and got a discount for doing it online. VA is backasswards in a lot of areas, but this isn't on of them.
Death is but a doorway.
Here, let me hold that for you.
Three years ago,when I had to renew my license to operate a motor vehicle, the people at the RMV used a device called a "camera" to record the distinctive pattern of my facial features. This was digitized and a copy was incorporated into the plastic identification card I was issued.
Two months ago, when I had to renew my gun permit, my fingers were pressed on an ink pad and an impression was made on a piece of paper.
I expect that, in a few years, a plastic swab will be used to harvest cells from the inside of my mouth, to be entered into a DNA database.
So, with biometric identification getting more specific and more invasive, now I'm being told that the trend is reversing? I don't think so.
I would love to see these biometric identifiers become "web-enabled", because my next driver's license will have a picture of a Labrador Retriever and my fingerprint record will be a cat's paw print.
Oh, and I got yer DNA sample right here, pal.
k.
--
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people
are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
I've had some really great experiences in lines! Like the line for the first showing of the Phantom Menace, which was a better experience than the movie itself. Or the times I've camped out waiting for concert tickets to go on sale. Even when I recently had to go in to contest some parking tickets ("Hey! More of my car was parked out of the No Parking Zone than in it!") I ended up sitting in a waiting room with a lot of other really interesting people who I'd never have met otherwise, and really got a sense of my community that I didn't have before.
Lines aren't necessarily bad. I would say a future of NO lines would be a lot worse. Like we don't sit at home and play Quake enough as it is!
Also: I think it's a rather hackeyed line to say that anyone who casts a critical eye on where a given technology takes us is a "neo-Luddite". It's lazy, and it isn't even true. From here on in, I'm establishing Crash's Corollary : When someone participating in a tech discussion refers to the opposing side as Luddites (or any variation thereof) without examining the issues raised by them, the argument is ended in favor of the opposing side.
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
Most impressive, though, is that I was able to get a new license with my new address on it online. Since moving to the credit card style IDs they save your picture and therefore I just logged on, paid $6 and two days later got a new license with a new address, no lines.
My only arguement was that it actually cost $2 more than if I had gone down to MVD and waited in line. The extra $2 was worth it, but I disagree with companies charging me a fee to make their work easier. (I didn't require the time of a "teller" and they can presumably do these online IDs during "slow periods" when a person might otherwise be idle, if that ever happens at the MVD.)
MacSlash: News for Mac Geeks
www.dot.[yourstate].us
[YourState] Department of Transportation
Please fill out this form completely and accurately. At a four-way stop, with three people arriving at the same time, who has the right of way? Have you ever had an accident? Stand across the room, and read the fifth line of letters. Did you get them right? Do you want to be an organ donor? Click here, and your driver's license will be mailed to you.
www.hud.[yourstate].us
[YourState] Department of Housing and Urban Development
To qualify for housing subsidies, you must demonstrate that your income and/or education is lower than established poverty guidelines. Click one:
( ) I am using hotmail to save money on email services.
( ) I'm at a library kiosk, since I can't afford my own computer.
(*) Kiosk, what's a kiosk?
www.usps.gov
United States Post Office
Weigh your package on a scale, such as your bathroom scale. Press here to print airmail postage. Press here to digitize your package. Press here to certify that your package is not illegal contraband, including explosives, weaponry, narcotics, nuclear secrets or crptography source code. Press here to FTP: your package to Honduras.
www.hhs.gov
Department of Health and Human Services
The Center for Disease Control and the Department of Health and Human Services are cooperating to reduce influenza in the community. Click here for a flu shot.
(end of giggle) I'm not a Luddite, and I hope that technology can be used to overcome as many issues as possible. However, our government is BY the PEOPLE, FOR the PEOPLE, and most of the people who end up in government lines are not savvy or interested in using computers.
We're elitist if we forget about "the lower half" of humanity, or even if we think of the computer have-nots as "the lower half."
[
Once again, the few would spoil it for the rest of us. Technology will have to get a lot better to make a "no line society" a reality.
"Stop whining!" - Arnold, as Mr. Kimble
The Consumer Project on Technology has recently started a campaign to get government contracts put on the Internet.
Currently, it is difficult for American citizens to obtain copies of publicly funded federal contracts without resorting to the Freedom of Information Act -- a tedious and often inefficient process.
At the start of this campaign (May 1999), we asked two associates attempt to obtain 81 federal contracts that had been listed in the Washington Post by contacting the firms and government agencies involved. They were unable to obtain a copy of a single contract.
We feel that the placing of government contracts on the Internet will shed some much-needed light on the impenetrable, byzantine process of government contracting and restore an element of accountability to the federal government.
Our correspondence with President Clinton and the Office of Management and Budget to date on this topic can be seen on our Government Contracts on the Internet page.
Sincerely,
Vergil Bushnell
Insects and Grafitti Photos
well now, if we are to web-enable all these line-generating government services, ignore the social justice implications of streamlining governmet services for those much better off, how do we propose to pay for all of it? to do this well, it will cost gobs of money. duh.
shall we tax on-line purchasing?
shall we tax packets/ISPs/mega-telcos?
shall we sell the rights to the data generated by this web-enablement to the highest bidder?
i bet doubleclick would be first in line to lend 'expertise' to the build-out...
cleetus
Take a look at your state's Web site at http://www.state.XX.us/ where XX is your state abbreviation, such as Arizona or Oregon or Michigan.
--
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
unless it's a Microsoft server. Like the bitchy woman behind the desk at the DMV, an NT/IIS server can serve only one person at a time, does so only grudgingly, and takes frequent breaks. It even mumbles incoherently from time to time. Now that's progress.
One of things that keeps government from being a total pain in the butt is that it's currently a lot of work to come and physically touch you.
That is, in order for someone in the gov't. to interact with you, they have to get physical somewhere along the line. Because of this, you have some slack. Slack is basically the ability to exist in a world of your own choosing, to some extent. You can go about your business relatively untouched.
This isn't a license to pirate warez, or to cause other people grief, but being able to treat interaction with your government as a minor concern. Because of this, the government and the citizen have a relationship, but the average citizen can choose to be at arm's length or locked in a bear hug.
When we eliminate the distance by choosing to interface with the government in electronic form, we give up that buffer. In other words, there is no longer any obstacle to directly debiting your bank account for whatever amount the government (state, city, federal) decides you owe them.
I can hardly wait. And it gets better - currently, many states revoke the drivers licenses of certain individuals for somewhat serious offences - failure to pay child support, DUI, etc.
This is essentially a way to selectively invoke police harassment, which isn't nesc. evil - but what about a future where your license is suspended because you didn't pay some tax or someone keyed in a SSN that matched yours when her finger slipped?
Maintaining inefficiencies is not always a bad idea - especially when you're not interested in becoming a well oiled cog. Separation between state and government agencies will soon start to evaporate, and it will become very easy to mess with people simply because some department head decides that power is a cool toy.
It was 0300. The moonless night engulfed three individuals in complete darkness. Three individuals who moved, with surprising grace, toward a single destination. Three individuals on a campaign; a mission. A campaign to rid Slashdot of lame trolls... a mission to ultimately destroy Slashdot forever.
A low candle flame, flickering slightly in the crisp Autumn night breeze, lit the storm sewer corridors and access tubes with a deep yellow pallor. Faint whisperings, little more than leaves brushing against ancient cement walls to the rest of the world, could be heard...
"Where is Allan? I thought I saw him approaching a moment ago..." TRoLLaXoR hissed. Standing a full 6 foot, with slicked-back black hair and a few day's worth of stubble, TRoLLaXoR looked every bit the revolutionary in his black leather biking jacket. His green eyes pierced the dimly-lit darkness, awaiting a response.
"I believe he tripped on his beard," Linus stated matter-of-factly, with just a hint of impatience. Linus Trovalds, Open Source hero and maintainer of Linux, stood taut as coiled snakes as he realized the gravity of the situation.
"Contact him. We have already overstayed our time in this place, even as we arrive." TRoLLaXoR pushed.
"Fine..." Linus Trovalds threw back the hood that concealed his Finnish visage, which was painted with tightly closed eyes and a look of grim concentration. He rubbed his temples lightly as sweat began to bead upon his high Finnish forehead.
Mumbling rapidly in Finnish, Linus turned to the East, now raising one hand above his head, palm extended to the direction of the sun's somnal abode.
"I can't seem... to contact him..." Linus grunted in broken English... "I will try another method!"
Now a tributary of Old Swedish poured from the well of Linus's foreign maw. TRoLLaXoR started, "Linus... if he is lost to us, there is nothing you can do, not even a fossil language can bring him to us now!"
Linus broke his linguistic trance and turned to TRoLLaXoR. "In the name of all discontinued Japanese Transformers! He must have been captured by the enemy! Damn him and his filth-ridden beard! Now you know why I hate working with dirty GNU hippies!"
The enemy, as both TRoLLaXoR and Linus knew too well, were the nefarious Slashdot Moderators, a group of numb-minded, brainwashed denizens of their strange, dark world who patrolled in hopes of "disabling" those who rebelled against their beloved Commander's will. "As dirty as he was, he was a valuable ally that you and I and the rest of the free world needed," TRoLLaXoR dryly pointed out. "If the Mods got him, we must forego tonight's plans and rescue him immediately!"
Grunting again, this time out of frustration and anger, Linus whispered sharply thru clenched teeth in a heavy accent, thick with Finnish and Old Gutnish phonemic forms. "In the name of unmade Beast Wars toys, how are you and I to do a thing if the Mods patrol tonight?"
TRoLLaXoR, ever the rebel to thrive against challenge, grew a vicious smile as he turned to Linus again. "The harder they patrol, the harder we troll, my friend." Linus remained nonplussed. As TRoLLaXoR tightened the belts on his black leather biking jacket and made sure all miscelanaous zippers were sealed, his face brightened even more. "We've faced worse setbacks. Remember the Fallen Trolls. And remember moreso those Trolls who have gone over to the other side..."
As TRoLLaXoR's voice trailed off, Linus hung his head and exhaled slowly. Thoughts of the fallen whipped thru Linus's Finnish brain like TCP packets to Linux's but bucket. "No, how can I not remember... Troll Mastah... Signal 11... travesty... they've tried to fade us..."
"Looks like they'll try again!" TRoLLaXoR replied, smiling, completing a verse from "Wild Boys", the infamous Duran Duran track that TRoLLaXoR and his camp had taken up as their anthem. "Now come on... We have some Mods that need bitchslapped tonight!"
Linus closed his eyes and bobbed his head three times, while, in Latin, rattling "nonigne et neluce, ex! ex! ex!", automagically extinguishing the candle that had lit their clandestine council. Casting a dirgical glance at each other, Linus and TRoLLaXoR crept out into the night on their newly-made, desparate mission.
In the backs of both of their minds, fear gnawed at them...
[Chapter 1] | [Chapter 2]
I recently changed my last name from "Liddle" to "Smith" (it's a long story, but basically I reverted the name more or less back to the one I was born with). I did this in April, and I am still wading through institutional (government and corporate) bureacracies trying to get the change put through.
A few forward thinking companies actually let me make the change online (though they did require 128 bit encryption and a password, there are still security issues). On the other hand, I have spent more time on the phone, and standing in line, getting this taken care of than I care to think about.
If I were able to do this on-line, I would have been able to do this in an afternoon, queue jumping or no. As it is, I am hopeful I'll have everything squared away under the new name by the end of the summer. I'm not holding my breath though.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Streamlined government!?! I couldn't imagine anything worse. We must be thankful today that government is so utterly incompetant that it cannot take away freedoms at an even faster rate.
Years ago, I read Frank Herbert's stories about the Bureau of Sabotage. The premise of the stories was that well-meaning reformers had succeeded in eliminating all the red tape and bureaucratic rigmarole that make government so inefficient. The result was a government so streamlined, so effective, that it posed a far greater threat to liberty than ever before. Laws were passed at a much higher rate, and enforced vigilantly. Delays and oversights due to incompetence or graft were a thing of the past; now there was no escape from the everpresent eye of the state.
I suggest you think twice, Katz.
ezgov is a pretty interesting place. One of my good buddies works there, and I almost took a position with them a couple of months back (perl hacking on the backend). Their technical people seem to be stronger than the competition (govworks, etc.) Not that I'm biased or anything, of course...*grin*
If we didn't have to go wait in line for Govt. stuff, we'd probably never leave the house (until Episode 2 hits the theatres). They don't want us to become fat lazy slobs, right ?
This is a great idea...for non-identity-sensitive actions.
Believe me, I'd *love* to be able to register a car for the first time online. Or get a passport without submitting my birth certificate at the post office. However, imagine the industry that would form around issuance of phony credentials online. As soon as someone has your personal information, it would just take a few mouse clicks to "report something lost or stolen" and get a new one sent out. I can think of auto titles being a very popular thing for car thieves, or passports/licenses/social security cards for immigrant-smuggling operations. Some things you just need to actually "see" the person before handing over a powerful document.
For silly things, like paying taxes, getting licenses and permits, etc., the idea of line reduction is great. But I'd feel safer if I actually had to walk in somewhere to get a new piece of ID made for me.
All the positive things that come from improvements in technology have a human cost too. Any human resource department has a dilemma: positions need to be filled for "tech" jobs, but the majority of the work force is geared toward service positions. Those efficiency improvements cost governments jobs, a negative as far as the budget is concerned...
Folks,
Did you know that New York State allows you to register your car online now?
http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/
so some states are starting to get it. BTW NYC Parking Violations lets you pay online
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
I think there are a lot of gov services that would be sweet to have online. I was thinking of this a couple weeks ago. There's currently a big flap over paying fees for accessing state/fed/etc parks and wilderness areas. There's also fishing and hunting licenses, and extra tags for steelhead/salmon/etc. Someone into the outdoors trying to gather all the licenses, permits, tags, and other stuff has to keep track of a ton of bs and forms and shit in order to go outside and have a good time! It would be sweet if there was one source for these permits. Or even better, a subscription service that was renewed every year, with your current status and other info available online.
Besides being easier for people wanting to go outside and play, the gov would benefit by having more people actually pay because they would be an easy place to access the information they need.
Jason
Managment in govenment is promoted from within. This means you get a lot of garbage collectors who end up directors of major departments. This problem only gets worse as goventments downsize because the younger employees with marketable skills just leave!
Unfortunatly, the users don't fair much better. Usually, they lack any kind of current training, they are give crap for equipment, and the software they use predates the transistor. Any attempt to provide the tools they need to do their job gets bogged down (I won't run on the mainframe, It's good but it need 3 million ne features.
Finally, the beaurocratic system is the the most effective tool for squashing innovation I have ever seen. Between the Unions, The Old Boys Network, Political crap and all the other 'special interests', only the blandest, least noteworthy ideas ever get implmentented (but boy do we know how to plan a project to death).
I once read "The more expensive a Government IT project is the less likely is is to be successful." The accompianing graph was nearly vertical at about $20 Million. Think about that everytime you read about another expensive Government IT project.
I've got to go, the mainframe needs more coal.
âoeWho knew something as harmless as willful ignorance could end up having real consequences?â
For example: part of my job is processing the forms for when a military member takes leave. I get a form with the member's SSAN, name, organization, and the days the member took leave. The form has three parts: One that I type into the computer, one the member keeps, and one held onto by the member until s/he returns to work. If the member has to make a correction to when the leave was taken, s/he indicates this on the form and sends it to me.
This whole process could be placed on a Web Page that could almost entirely remove the leave forms from my job.
But this is not where the Internet is being used by the DoD. Instead we get so-called "Computer Based Training", done in the form of a PowerPoint presentation. Usually, we end up having to go to a standard training session in addition to the CBT.
Where we do see appropriate moves toward using the internet, it's usually done in manner that is not fully thought out.
I even filed my income taxes online this year.
Other things like driver's license renewals and fine payments can be done all over the place at electronic kiosks the gov't puts at malls and downtown.
There's only one problem with having gov't services online - there's no one to yell at when you get hosed. And good luck talking to a real human being when you call into an IVR system. =) Welcome to the 21st century.
Someone should work on developing an IVR that listens to your gripes and placates you while waiting for a real person. THAT would sell big time. =)
--
Paying for tickets online would be super sweet. But I guess only if you're going to pay the fine and not contest it at all. That would be really handy right about now as I have two tickets I have to get around to paying, and I lost the actual ticket. (well, maybe didn't lose them, maybe I just made a birthday card out of them for a friend. Hey, I was on the way to the party and needed something! They were the only colorful things in the car!)
Jason
- In e-commerce, the cost of providing services electronically is defrayed by (presumably) increased amount of business. In government, the cost is borne by the taxpayer. The political will to bear that increased cost isn't yet present.
- A business can de-emphasize its brick-and-morter component (if any) as e-business swells. Government is constrained to serve all citizens equally. It simply can't get rid of the old-fashioned way of doing things -- not yet.
- Many government processes legally require some form of identification (photo) or signature that can't legally be done electronically. (However, the legalizat ion of electronic signatures should accelerate putting such processes online.)
It's always fun to insult goverment and government workers. But often, as with Katz' polemic, the insults are based on a total lack of understanding of the unique mission and requirements of government. Repeat after me: Government is not business.The government is probably the biggest organization to ever exist. You can't expect the thing to wake up one day and say, "Oh, KEWL. The internet. Let's dump 50 yrs of policy and procedures and jump onto this new technology."
Just look at the obstacles that 'crats face.
1)Taxpayers scream if $1 is paid for a coax terminator without 5 different sources being allowed to bid on it.
2)If any special interest group feels that it doesn't get as much advantage as every other it howls (Note: this doesn't mean the said group is hurt, just that it doesn't get as much advantage as all the rest)
3)No one thanks you for improving their life.
4)Everyone blames you if you screw up.
So I'm a bureaucrat. I have bosses (elected officials) who change every few years, and who constantly proclaim that they will 'do things different' in order to appease voters. I will be blaimed for every problem, whether I'm responsible or not, for trying to implement a constantly shifting process voted on by people who have no idea how the process works. I will be blamed for all problems (did I mention that I will be blamed for all problems).
Do I:
A) Step out and try some untested technology that will improve the lives of my customers?
B) Keep quiet with my head down and wait for the next boss with his 'different' way?
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
Yes, getting things streamlined and making public services available online has been a slow process. But it's getting done.
:) Everyone agrees that these things are good ideas and will save money in the long run. And make people happy.
:)
You have to remember that most things of this sort that you have to deal with are at the local government level. And there are many other issues that have to take precedence.
Like working water/sewer systems that don't overflow into rivers during major storms. Streets that don't tear up cars. Schools and libraries. Fire trucks that aren't on their last legs. And so on. Many places have a hard enough time budget-wise keeping up with these things. Making improvements is slow. It's hard to justify major investments in computer systems (let alone keeping up the ones already there) if they will cut into any of those type of things.
The other thing is people to do it. In most places the payscale for experienced IT persons to put this stuff together doesn't compare at all to the current market. Sometimes the pay can be literally almost half of what one can get working elsewhere.
It's hard to find people willing to take that much of a cut to try to make a difference in their local community. But some do it. (There are decent benefits, and good job security. But making half of what your compadres/buddies does kind of bite sometimes.) Please keep that in mind when complaining about lack of high-speed new-age services.
Some of us would like to do that. And will, eventually. (Free OS's on commodity hardware help.
But it's not on the top of most people's priority list's. I just saw the results of a public opinion survey this morning, so I'm not just talking about the politicians. (Who often are not much help where the wheel meets the road, either.)
Unless of course, you want to help. How about some hardware? Some volunteered time and expertise? That might be welcomed more readily than you might think. (Please - no political strings attached. Most of us actually doing the work don't care about that, and don't want to. We just fix things, and try to keep our feet away from the muck as much as possible.)
Anyway... enough of my little rant. Touched a nerve, I guess.
Just an FYI, I found you can pay lots of different fines (just payed a parking ticket) at ezgov.com, which has been mentioned a lot here today.
Jason
Yeah, that's it. Give the government means to collect money from people faster. Great. Give the thieves the keys to the vault while you're at it.
One of the most effective lines of defense the common person has against government is precisely its massive, bloated, bureaucratic paperwork system. People were able to save themselves hassles and money by exploiting tricks and loopholes in that system. Sure, developing e-government has no directly negative effects on people, but its a sort of aiding and abetting. One generally doesn't try to make things easier for a known thief; why should we optimize work for the worst thief in the world?
B
B
"I'm payin' taxes, but what am I buyin'?" -- James Brown
Telling us the same things other people who write about the net were talking about years ago.
Come on, Katz. Try telling us something we haven't already heard a dozen times from other people. We know you can do it. Hell, you even seems to piss more people off that way.
I don't have an opinion one way or the other about Jon's work, but I am tired of all you whiny bitches complaining about it and "wasting everyone's time...."
MacSlash: News for Mac Geeks
Comeon, you're a grown-up boy, aren't you? Grown-up boys don't cry, eh? It's just a little pinprick, anyway.
--
Here's my mirror
As we are all saying...a queue is a queue is a queue no matter which way you look at it, whether it be on line at the DMV or sitting in front of your monitor you will always be waiting some way or another for someone else or something else. I don't think people mind waiting if they dont have to miss income generating hours at work to get things done. I dont know about everyone else but the DMV isn't paying my bills. Just mt little piece of nonsense.
There is so much shame in rebooting.
So, after blasting the conventions of corporatism that bring us things like WAVE America, lack of internet privacy, and things like DMCA, Katz is telling us that our government should join with the dark side so I don't have to wait 5 minutes at the DMV.
I do wish Katz would make up his mind.
In space, no one can hear you moo.
Oay, now I'm off to finish Gees, my favorite boo by Jon atz.
Stay up hacking each weekend. Sleep is for the week.
I'm not sure what keysize is legal now with the new export laws. But I THINK Netscape's up to 128 bit SSL now. Yeah, that's still not too great. But consider...
One crooked government employee (oh, but would anyone immoral EVER work for the government??? Who's heard of such a thing?) can most likely harvest more SSNs than a script kiddie with a packet sniffer and a brute force keygen can crack.
Likewise, one person with a photographic memory walking through a mall one day can most likely harvest more credit card numbers than a script kiddie with a packet sniffer and a brute force keygen can crack.
Or forget photographic memories. How about one immoral waiter with a pen and paper? You *DO* follow them to the credit card machine and watch to make sure they don't write down your number whenever you pay with your visa... don't you? I didn't think so. And even if YOU do, do you think the AVERAGE person does?
Or one disturbed postal worker who wants to get his hands on checking account numbers and routing codes... Most people *DO* still pay their bills via check through the USPS.
Now, don't get me wrong, strong crypto is undeniably a GOOD THING(tm). But it's not a panacea.
And while 40bit or 128bit browser crypto may be trivial for the NSA or most corperations, or even for schools with their beowulf networks...
It's NOT trivial for joe 5kr19t k1dd13 who wants 2 g3t some w1k3d kardz and phuck 5h1t up. He's far more likely to get kardz by calling up his friend who's a waiter at Steak N Shake than by kracking them.
john
Resistance is NOT futile!!!
Haiku:
I am not a drone.
Remove the collective if
Imagine all the people...
As for me, I'd rather have a sluggish, inefficient government that didn't kill off its citizens with ruthless efficiency.
In fact, I'll even stand in line once every ten years to get a passport. I'll even stand in line for an hour or two.
I think that's a reasonable tradeoff.
The IPCC has purposely engineered a massive scientific fraud.
Some government services lend themselves well to the typical e-commerce model, meaning, the transactions are relatively anonymous and limited to a monetary exchange. Kinda like buying a book from Amazon if you like. Examples of government services that can be provided effectively online with this limited amount of identification are things like drivers license renewals, tax payments and fishing licenses. In this type of transaction, there is no real form of identification needed, I mean, if somebody wants to pay my taxes for me, they can go right ahead! :-)
Super. Ok, why not provide everything online then? Well for one, a lot of electronic service delivery related to the government, requires some form of irrefutable identification. The government is responsible for protecting the data they have on you and they must ensure that only authorized parties can access your information. There is also an issue of law here, where certain types of transactions between you and your government are legally binding. In order to accomplish this, the transaction must have non-repudiation - that is, you have legally bound yourself to the transaction and it will hold up in court that the transaction did in fact take place and it was you that did it.
Well kids, the only way to get this level of assurance is with the implementation of a Public Key Infrastructure (PKI).
For a government of any scale, this is a huge undertaking. I don't want to yammer on about what a PKI requires, but I'd just like to mention, that to establish an effective PKI on a large scale ( the public ), there is a massive amount of policy that needs to be written. And this amount of policy isn't just because we're talking government here, it's necessary to establish the requisite level of trust between the public, CA's ( Certificate Authorities like Verisign) and cross certifications with other governmental bodies.
I'm willing to bet that most governments are aware of these issues and are currently working towards their own PKI solutions. Being relatively new technology, and the broad scope of a PKI project, it may be sometime before we the wide spread implementation of true electronic government service delivery. With the exception of a few jurisdictions who have implemented a PKI, for now all we've got is web-based e-commerce services.
It's coming though, give it time.
No way. The paramount priority of any government is to increase in size and power. We will end up with massive duplication of effort. What about all those millions of citizens (the majority, remember?) who do not have computer/Internet access? We can't marginalize them. So we have to keep the existing meat-space solutions intact while we add e-gov sites which will have to be funded and maintained by additional revenue (taxes).
The only likely increase in efficiency would be in the collection and analysis of information that the gov't can use to manage its citizens, all under the guise of being more "helpful". Indeed, one might argue that physical world inefficiency is a good natural brake on some gov't processes functioning too well.
I'm not saying a new e-gov approach is necessarily a completely bad thing, but don't delude yourself into thinking it will save any money or decrease the size of the beauracracy.
Just as corporate websites have evolved from pretty ads that pushed out information into e-commerce sites that actually made sales and generated revenue, government websites are evolving into useful service deliverers. This has the potential to be much more than just a "line killer" as Katz terms it. Here in Arizona, the state's adopted a directive called "No Wrong Door" in response to people attempting to get various services from the government and being told to go to another agency. No Wrong Door is easy in an electronic sense- passing people across webpages or redirecting electronic inquiries is a breeze not only in terms of time, but in manpower and in the lessening of a demand for services at brick-and-mortar government offices.
It's not going to kill lines, it's on the warpath to killing bureaucracy!
Anyway, Arizona has passed a new law permitting all state agencies to accept credit cards, which may seem fundamental to you all, but remember Gov't is adverse to lining the pockets of other businesses on the basis of 2-3% "processing fees". The government is looking beyond that, and saying that 2-3% fee is better than the thousands lost in bad checks and the millions spent on bricks and mortar. This is very long term thinking, when you're talking about term limited elected officials who run every two years.
Arizona has been providing some services online for years. I can renew my car registration, even get replacement plates or a duplicate driver's license online. There are other services, like paying fines, etc., but I haven't used them. ;)
BTW - Bricks and Mortar retailers, who pay sales taxes, are a little pissed at all this. They view themselves as funding the electronification of government, putting it on an even level with other e-businesses which don't pay taxes.
==
"This is the nineties. You don't just go around punching people. You have to say something cool first."
We're just trying to make slashdot a better place for all readers. JonKatz's articles bring down the overall quality of the articles on slashdot (have fun moderating me down for saying that). I read just about every article on slashdot (gotta love my free time), and JonKatz is the only author that consistantly posts articles that are inaccurate and full of his own wacked out opinions. JonKatz has proved to myself and a large number of the slashdot readers that he knows very little about the computing industry, especially how it relates to us slashdot reading "geeks."
While this article does has a little bit of truth behind it, it is more the kind of thing I would expect to see printed in a newspaper or some other publication read mostly by computer novices. Maybe he should hold on to a copy of this article and print it again when the lines really do disappear and when all the web pages that have replaced the lines are easily connected to by everyone in the world at the same time.
To sum it all up, this is the worst article I've seen on slashdot since the last JonKatz article. I'm going to keep reading his articles and bitching about them until someone at slashdot wises up and kicks Jon out on his wanna-be-geek ass and starts posting articles that have some relivance to those of us living outside of JonKatz's little world.
Hey, what if your computer completely breaks down and you need to get your license renewed today? Too bad, we cut service to the walk-in DMV 'cause we want people filling in the forms on-line. Your nearest office is 50 miles away and is only open from 11 to 2 Tuesday through Thursday...
Even up here in Canada there are government documents that used to be available for free or close to it from a walk-in office, which are now only available as electronic documents for ludicrous fees that only corporations can afford (e.g. detailed topographical maps of B.C., Statistics Canada surveys) But hey, you don't have to wait in line for them anymore!
TV's are nowhere near as difficult to learn to operate as a computer, and they're on the order of ten times cheaper, too.
Besides, just because you managed to work your way out of childhood poverty (walking uphill both ways in a snowstorm every day etc. etc.) doesn't mean that anyone who hasn't managed to is an unworthy slack-ass. Besides, there may even be people poorer than you neighbors. Maybe they are those $50k/yr Silly Vally homeless we heard about earlier :)
Slashdot is hosted in Michigan, USA. Jon Katz is American. Pretty much everybody involved in the creation of /. is American. The majority of readers here are American. When the writers of /. say "our government" or "the government", they mean American Government, because it is an American-published web-page.
No matter how many people from other parts of the world chose to read Slashdot, it still comes from America.
There are people in England who read the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal, too, but that mean that they always speak in "global" terms, or spell "color" with a "u".
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Unlike most of the writers on /., he is a publushed journalist. He has written for print publications, and has authored books. While he might not have much geek cred as a techie, the fact that he's a former Wired writer means he makes /. look good to a lot of casual viewers.
Also, he covers a beat that the other /. writers don't: the impact of us geeks on society. While you might not be terribly interested in it, it seems like they want it covered.
Look at it this way... if Dan Rather called /. and said he wanted to be a regular writer, do you think they would turn him down, just because he knows little or nothing about technology? With Katz, it is like that on a much, much smaller scale. Katz is one of the mini-celebrities of tech journalism... sort of a Cringley Lite. /. is paying him for his by-line, not the stories that are under them. It's business.
(Note: all this is just opinion, so don't have a cow, moderators.)
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
When a business decides to take chances, it is doing what business is in the business of doing. This is how profits are made, educated risks. Risk an unenforceable (or more likely, a pragmatically unenforceable) agreement on the ground that you can afford to lose a bunch of deals, in view of the profits to be made on the ones that work, that's good business.
It's probably also bad government.
Government documents are fundamentally different. They grant rights and powers well beyond the scope of executing agreements. Fraud in a contract may make a contract unenforceable, fraud before the government is a crime which can yield the loss of life and liberty for an extended period of time.
Sure, voting encrypted and authenticated via digital signature seems attractive -- it is also an invitation for all forms of fraud, even presuming the technology is unbreakable. It is for this reason and others that government does many things in person -- even if only to assure jurisdiction over the body of the actor.
For all the reasons traditionally crowed about by technoanarachists on slashdot as to why the net is a fundamentally non-terrestrial zone beyond the jurisdiction of all -- it seems to me a terrible idea to start getting fluffy with these other things.
Oh, and by the way. A vast amount of real-world authentication is predicated on the pain-in-the-but (whether real or fictitious) process needed to get "official" documents. If driver's licenses could be obtained by web pages and web-cams, no one else would rely on the same.
The trust process that derives from these "seminal" sources of identification is, of course, a fiction. But it is also one that tends to keep honest people honest -- so businesses and banks tend to rely on driver's licenses, birth certificates and passports. Imagine how the loss of fundamental authentication would deprive other, more informal forms of authentication of their (pseudo)legitimacy.
Nah, make me wait in line. Bust me if you catch me lying on the government document. Some things just need to be done the hard way.
I can understand why they hired him, but what I can't understand is why the don't fire him. So he's a published writer, that's nice. So his by line means a little more to casual readers, that's nice too. The way I've always felt about slashdot is that its out there so that we can get the news the way we want it "News for Nerds, Stuff that matters," not so that we can sit here and let out "ooohs" and "aaahs" about the authors' resumes.
Now if Dan Rather called up slashdot and asked for a job, of course they should hire him (I've always been a Dan Rather fan), but the minute he starts turning out articles like the one we're discussing now they should kick his ass back to network TV. Another point I should bring up is that Jon Katz is no Dan Rather. If Dan Rather was to read a JonKatz style article on TV I think it would hurt the ratings quite a bit.
I'm very impressed by Jon's credentials, its too bad he's not a good writer. Go back to Wired Jon, yer deffinitly not slashdot material.
Here's a little story about technological line-killing for you.
I hate lines. I love the toll roads around Houston but the lines are often onerous, so I've got one of those tags affixed to my windshield that lets me go through toll plazas in the "posted at 45mph, just keep in under 80" line. Everything's hunky-dory, right?
Wrong.
I got a letter from the county district attorney the other day. It seems I owe USD$1225 in unpaid fees and tolls for going through the toll plazas without paying. WTF?
It took a lengthy, painful investigation to find out what happened. Essentially, my windshield tag only worked occasionally, so a picture was snapped of me each time I went through the toll plaza. The license plate on my car was then compared to people with toll road accounts. If my number was found, they'd just charge my account for the toll. My number wasn't found, though, because it had been incorrectly keyed into their database. I was sent exactly one uncertified letter with an invoice for the unpaid tolls. (I either didn't get it or just mistook it for my regular monthly statement and didn't pay attention.)
Now this has been referred to the county attorney for collection. The toll road people admit that it's their fault that my account wasn't charged. They admit that it was their faulty equipment that caused the problem. But since it's been referred to the lawyers, "There's nothing we can do." The county attorney just says "Pay up or lose your car and get a criminal conviction the next time we catch you on a toll road."
I've got three days to pay. I have no choice but to pay. If I choose to fight it, I'll wind up arrested on the side of the road before the matter can be resolved and, because of where I work, I'll lose my job.
Yeah - technology is an unalloyed joy that will save our souls while shortening lines everywhere.
Uh-huh.
If you believe that, I've got a bridge you might be interested in...
Secondly, he can't "go back to Wired". In spite of his boasting about being inspired to become an "open source" content provider, the truth is that he became a free-lance writer (and then a /. writer) because Wired layed him off. The Wired News web page chose to change their focus to tech business news, and Katz did not fit with their new direction, or so the story goes.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
I've also seen and read more than enough about how totally inept (U.S.) local, state, and federal government agencies, officials, and lawmakers can be. They're barely capable of handling basic government functions -- e.g., education, transportation, defense, finances, and the mish-mash of social programs -- in an intelligible manner.
If goverment agencies, software companies, and consultants are brought together, do you honestly think they'll understand what it means to build and be able to actually build systems that are highly available (99.9% is a good start), fault-tolerant, and reliable; that guarantee data integrity; that safeguard citizens' information and privacy; that are secure from the webservers back to the database(s); that are scalable? Will they be able to design, implement, and rehearse disaster recovery plans? How will they handle issues such as citizen authentication (e.g., see PFIR Statement on Electronic Signatures and Documents for an explanation of the risks surrounding recent U.S. legistation to make electronic signatures legally binding) and information disputes/inaccuracies? Are they ready to staff call centers with enough trained employees with adequate computers and tools to help citizens in a timely manner (e.g., so that they're not on hold for 15 - 30 minutes). Are they ready to adapt current government processes, regulations, and procedures so that online transactions are efficient? For example, how do you translate the real-world requirement for original documentation into the online world without making the turn-around time for transaction processing measurable in weeks? And what about those who can't use online transactions? Over time when transaction processing becomes much more common, will they be forced to pay a surcharge to visit a government office for their business, just as some banks do in today's ATM/mail/online-banking world when someone tries to talk with a teller, even for something that can't be done via ATM, mail, or online banking? Will they be open to independent, surprise audits?
A lot of unanswered questions, and, let's face it, previous efforts by private and public sector groups to modernize public-sector agencies haven't gone as smoothly as they should've.
Instead of spending millions upon millions of dollars on technologies and paradigms that government agencies and officials have proven complete arrogance of in the past and making software companies and consultants obscenely rich, wouldn't it be better to spend some money in the short term to streamline the current processes and practices? And then do enough research to phase in a solid OLTP system over time, rather than a rushed, flaky one with flaky processes behind it?
As others have stated, Virginia has done an excellent job of making visits to their Department of Motor Vehicles offices significantly less painful and lengthy. My wife was able to get a new driver's license, register and title her car, and get new license plates in all of 30 minutes or so on a Saturday morning at a busy DMV office. And the folks were very friendly and helpful, patiently answering questions and such. Her interest in their online system all but died after that -- she doesn't see the need, doesn't want the nerves (e.g., where's my registration, is something wrong, did they get it, did they lose it?), and doesn't want to deal with the risks.
"...there are some geeks here who like his stuff..." There were some people who liked the new coke, that doesn't mean its worth having around.
Perhaps this would make a good slashdot poll. Vote on JonKatz's future. Lets do it the democratic way. Personally, I don't think JonKatz is a good writer, maybe being fired is just what he needs to realize that he might be talented at sometime else. I know that if I wasn't good at what I do then I'd be fired, I just think that the same should go for him.
I wonder if Jon's reading these comments... perhaps it would do him some good.
Or you could just not read his articles.
Regardless of who writes them, I appreciate a little non-geek reading once in a while. As for truth or accuracy, you can always take that with a grain of salt.
MacSlash: News for Mac Geeks
You learned everything *YOU* know about encryption from reading Cryptonomicon eh?
Yeah, I know that every bit you add to keylength doubles the number of possibilities, and thus, the brute force time. In fact, EVERYBODY knows it. It's freshman stuff... those powers of two, ya know?
But considering that the PGP key length necessary for secure email is 4096 bits, I'd say that, yeah, 128 bit keys still suck.
So take your holier than thou attitude and stick it up your ass, fucker.
john
Resistance is NOT futile!!!
Haiku:
I am not a drone.
Remove the collective if
Imagine all the people...
NightHawk
Tyranny =Gov. choosing how much power to give the People.
Too bad you can't take an eye test or an ID photo over the internet.
________
1995: Microsoft - "Resistance is futile"
>You are both blithering idiots.
An ACtroll thinks I'm an idiot!!!
That hurts sooooo much...
john
Resistance is NOT futile!!!
Haiku:
I am not a drone.
Remove the collective if
Imagine all the people...
Check it out...just found it today....
"I threw up my hands in disgust and wondered if it had been such a good idea to have eaten my hands in the first place."
Blaming the victims of marketing and consumerism for their poor choices is adding insult to injury. We know marketing works, so if you permit it to occur without constraints, people will make poor choices. If you want to get people to make good economic choices, all you need to do is to change the messages they see in the media.
What is it? ATM or ABM? depends on the branch I guess.
:P call it the ATM, AT Machine, or simply The Machine.. don't make yerself look dumber than you already are people ;)
I would be dead without the ATM... Man, it takes maybe 30 seconds to get in, do whatever, get out, I'm done. I really enjoy casually walking up to the machine, getting my cash, and crusing out... all the time eyeing the paranoid people who stand in line because they don't trust the machine.. muhahahahah.
Also, since I'm anti-social (as I'm sure most of you are too.. don't deny it...) it makes for another chance to avoid human contact. w00t. I don't know about you, but I have some great chats with the ATM thing...
And don't be calling it an ATM machine or ABM machine... Thats what the M is there for
Price, Quality, Time. Pick none. What, you thought you had a choice?
I guess someone particularly anal could say ridiculous universals like "we all sell something!" or "it may not be money, but everyone has some agenda!"--but that sort of paranoia feeds into a whole lot more than just this issue. There is certainly some sort of decentralized "official opinion is the only opinion" schtick going on.
Why does that matter? People might become less ready to jump into total crap if they know it's crap ahead of time, basically.
Yeah.
-Mogel
Here in NC, we've started the lineslaying process. Certain types of vehicle registrations can be taken care of over the Internet now. http://www.dot.state.nc.us/
"Politicians always tell the truth, when they're calling each other liars."
One of the books we studied was The Process Is The Punishment. One of its central tenets is, when you get down to it, the bureaucracy isn't accidental or undesired. It's part of the process of criminal law, meant to break down and assault those caught in its maw.
What you ascribe to deliberate malice here is more plausibly explained by selfishness and laziness.
There is no incentive for the government to make their bureaucracy more pleasant than necessary for people, so they don't. There are local management pressures to increase headcount and budget. So the departments become more bloated, as other posters have pointed out. The people working in the department have no desire to actually deal with the "customers", so they don't go out of their way to do anything that would encourage them to come back.
Nice, neat, and no oppressive conspiracy required.