Thanks- I'm using my work email now which is functional for the domain stuff, I'm not just not releasing it to the public. I haven't updated that page in about a week however, and a few days ago I had to get a dialup account at earthlink so I'm using that one for now.. xerithane@earthlink.net.
Thanks - it's real nice to know I have some supports in this:)
Ok, I'm humor impaired sometimes.
The massive amount of frustration with NSI made me this way.
I used to be funny, hell I used to even laugh. NSI has made me into a cold hard shell of my former self.
I apologize:)
Redundant means it's the same post, over and over again right?
It has the cid of 28 right?
Look at the previous 27 and tell me if any of them talk about what I talked about..
What's that? There aren't?
Do overrated instead, Redundant is dead wrong.
I am so happy to see this
I hope to see a lot more -- I'm generally against a lot of lawsuits but I really have no choice but to feel utter dispise towards that company.
My recent dealings with them have been absolutely horrendous, here is a page about it.
Not only have I had horrible experience with their customer service department, but also they're utilities for updating and registering are so far behind the rest of the competitors I can't imagine why anyone still does business with them.
The biggest thing I dont understand about them, is that since they lost their monopoly they now only account for 40% instead of 100%? A 60% loss in market share and they still seemingly refuse to restructure their obviously defunct customer service department and registration tools?
This, above all, deserves to be a Fucked Company life member.
My worst experience with them, was getting my contact record changed when the email address expired very suddenly. After explaining to them the situation and getting a canned response back then responding to that, then getting another canned response back I finally figured out what to do. You have to FAX them something. Wow, I thought we were living in a digital age, hell no. So I faxed it, nope - they lost it twice! Finally, I get my contact record changed (after 2.5 months of arguing with them) and when I tried to update my domain (nerdfar.org) they are refusing on the grounds that I have not properly proved my identity - yet my contact record is updated.
If there is a law against this I'd love to nail em for it -- not for any money, I just want my domain to be functional again.
Well, this is one hell of a rant.
Morale of the story, screw NSI and use register.com or another one of the registrars because NSI's head is so far up it's ass it's making the slashdot trolls envious.
I dunno, dont watch TV.
If I did I would probably not care because I would be yet another mindless idiot with drool hanging out of my mouth living a voyueristic life instead of doing something with my life so I can afford screenshots of Martin Luther King's assassination and perpetuate this society of stupidity by funding it with my damn tax dollars.
It wouldn't surprise me if this guy is collecting unemployement..
I pay almost 50% of all money I get (47%, exactly). I pay more in taxes then most people make in a year..
It's not fair, true - but someone has to do it I suppose
In my home town that I grew up at, in one month I pay more in taxes then some of my old friends yearly income. Granted, they were single and living in apartments running $200/month but it still is ridiculous. The cultural divide based on annual income is huge.
But, I grew up poor and I'm doing really well now so I dont have too much sympathy for people who complain about being poor and never getting a chance to get ahead. I was 12 and 13 working on ranches illegaly to get money for computer parts. I did what I had to do, and it paid off in the end.
I doubt anything is going to change any of that.. it's just the way people are.
But I'll keep paying my 47% and deal with it.
would buy this?
They sell these
I can imagine the scene at the dinner table now...
Mom, Dad, 2.3 kids talking about recent events with a screenshot of OJ killing Nicole..
You know your countries economy is too extreme when they have this stuff for sale, or have an entire chain of stores dedicated to selling plastic storage devices.
As is the method for anything. But, it does work both ways. If Carnivore can do something that is not publicly accessible but there are no laws violated -- it's technically ok. Only when private entities exploit this will there be a law. By that time, Carnivore will probably be accepted into the infastructure and whilst illegal -- no one will say anything.
Write laws first, then software.
That is called at-will employment. Come to california and try to get an assurance on your job.
Works both ways.. and I personally love at-will. It got me out of a bad situation in which I was able to just walk out and say screw it, I'm gone. Just because someone can terminate you at any time for any reason including abscence doesn't mean they are evil.
I worked for the government at one point, I had a great time there. It was a good job, pay sucked but it was fun.
But am I an evil person?
Hell no, I am more for freedom than you are -- you know why? You are trying to censor him - I'd be willing to bet you haven't lived 24 years, so how do you know how long of a time that is? It's a long time, and a lot can change. Even if he did work for the DoJ, NSA, CIA, FBI or whatever - he still is a person with his own beliefs, not of the government.
He could have been busy - I know that I usually dont have time to answer an interview when I'm trying to save the world from the ugly claws of the tyrants of the United States of America.
that was a joke by the way
He said "We will review whether Carnivore acquires information not permitted by law or in a manner prohibited by law."
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but could someone clarify what he meant? Seems to me like he said we're just going to find out what illegal information it acquires - I know that's not the intent (hope) but just not clear on it.
All in all, I think he has a justifiable stance. He handled the questions remarkably well, especially about sniffing. I think that people really need to put some faith in other people. I used to work for the government myself - but I have strong ties to freedom and liberty. However if I were on this review team I'd be in the same group. Forget i work on open source software, because I worked for the government I must be a tyrant. I suppose this is a reverse-flame. Just try to be more reasonable and dont attack people because of a job they took. People need to pay the bills, and it was 24 years ago.
Get over it.
Personally I have faith in Perrit's answers and his abilities to conduct a fair review of carnivore. Not like I have a choice if I dont anyway.
You really did not read that at all do you?
What it looks like is you took sentences you wanted, pasted them then responses to those sentences, isolated from everything else.
And besides, being called a friend after a quite insulting (even though polite, still insulting) response is more of a sarcastic gesture, instead of an act of friendship.
As far as the gestapo thing, I was commenting on your tactics - not words. But you seem to have a very hard time seperating tactics from words. You see only words apparently.
That's correct, because you were completely wrong
Not in what I intended, I admit I did not say it correctly. Now we could go through any number of what-if's. But your average person was not using GNU before Linux. It was the movement that brought GNU forward.
So, unless you actually want to understand intent then you really shouldn't write. You are a great writer, and you can analyze quite well - however you are seriously lacking in one area: understanding intent.
When I attempted to correct myself, and clarify what I meant (GNU wasn't used before linux) you threw it out.
From my point of view, your original post implied the following: "I am right, you are wrong and stupid"
If that's not true, then I misread your intent.. but considering you constantly miss the intent of my responses I'm thinking more and more that I was correct.
My secondary post was in the "Well, this guy wants to be an asshole, fine" mode. That was my mistake. And I am sorry if you think I have caused you some great disservice by reacting in a manner that I felt and still feel was rational and deserved.
I can handle being shown I'm wrong.
I can handle being wrong.
It's the method that determines my reaction. And, you choose the wrong method if you want a friendly response.
And about the $5K - not only is a debate or argument not worth *any* money to me (whether I win or lose) it is really a stupid and infantile "my penis is bigger than your penis" action right there.
And on a final note
Your post, from my perspective had all of the following traits:
closed mindedness, which I demonstrated and you chose to ignore (only turn isolated sentences back to me, instead of offering an explanation - and no, Jesus Christ inside of Buffalo Dung would be an exception.. however I am in front of a computer, which would imply being neck deep as a metaphor for oblivious/stupidity and any other implication would probably be valid)
gestapo - your approach was incorrect from my point of view. Instead of offering either a chance for me to defend my perspective, nor to offer counter actions - you insulted me first. Do not deny that, read my above explanation of buffalo dung. That is a bully tactic whether you like it or not. Intimidation then explanation is shoot first, ask later - it doesn't work. Heaven forbid someone shoot back, right?
Zealot - you pursue something with honest interest and passion.
Which of these 3 things is not true? I'd really like to know because if anything, you have proven them more true!
However: Physician, heal thyself.
Dunno what exactly that means.
Also, there is no right or wrong - only consequences. No high road, no low road. Maybe that's your problem - you are trying to prove me wrong when I don't believe there is such a thing.
Nice attempt at a backpedal, but if you really believed that, you wouldn't have wasted space stating what you now claim is a universal truth. No, the simplest explanation is still what I believe: you made your claim to smear me, because I disagreed with you. And you have yet to present any evidence that I am closed-minded, "gestapo", or a zealot.
I wasn't smearing you. That was my point. Obviously you are going to continue to take a holier-than-thou stance and fight for the last word. But, I'll defend this one last thing and go on with my merry life.
Believe what you want. This "public smearing" campaign you think I have against you is bogus -- I have not said anything that wasn't demonstrated to be truthful. Hell, if you weren't so gestapo and close-minded..
Let me tell you from what portion of your post I decided that from: If that's your "best argument", you're neck-deep in buffalo dung, my friend, for that argument is exactly backwards.
There are arguments for and against this - however I am talking about responses, and your immediate response is that I am completely wrong and implying that I am not only stupid but oblivious. That is a sign of close-mindedness. And in portraying the other person as blatantly wrong and illustrating dominance *before* any arguments are made is an act of gestapo tactics - You will fear me now!. Not that I insist you change your mind now that you've been given a clue about GNU/Linux history..
Oh, thank you I didn't know what GNU was running on before then... really.. I didn't... - I'm sure you are an authoritative figure to give history lessons. Hm.. you aren't? Damn, then I guess that makes you just a passionate and very interested follower, in order to know so much about it. Wait a second.. passionate believer in something.. Holy Broken Argument batman! That's a zealot.
If you dont believe me: One who is zealous; one who engages warmly in any cause, and
pursues his object with earnestness and ardor;
Damn, here I thought that was a compliment, people believe in things - that is what makes arguments fun. But no, you have to assume I was smearing you with my "universal truths"... however find me a person who is completely open minded and I'll show you a person who can't do anything (really think about that one if you dont understand it).
Ok, so now I'll do what you do here:
*clear throat*
So now I've corrected your views, I'm sure you wish to apologize for your blatant misinterpretation and being neck deep in >insert-favorite-animal<-dung..
Well, it has been very nice talking to you -- continue to believe what you want to believe, but understand that people have different perspectives and that's ok. But try in the future, instead of immediately challenging the person (see buffalo-dung quote above) engage in a friendly debate, here's something a little different:
Sorry, I really don't agree with you or see your point on this, GNU had been used on numerous different kernels before Linux was even a twinkle in Linus' eye.
See the difference between the two - one is friendly, one is not. If you choose the one that is not, don't expect the person to be nice afterwards.
You are close minded.
That isn't a lie, everybody is to a certain extent about certain things. Anybody who says they are not are lying to themselves -- the worst person to lie to. Instead of thinking about what I meant - you immediately had to take a confrontational approach, instead of asking for clarification on points. That is a sign of closed-mindedness if I ever saw one, but I could be wrong - I could have misinterpreted your response.. but judging from the way you wrote your second one that is not likely. You seem to have the "my way is right, here's facts to prove it" philosphy, which is good -- but don't ignore facts that disprove it either.
And You are a zealot.
I myself am I zealot, just on the opposite side of the fence. I think that we zealots are what make the world go around.
And I do I agree I should have been more in depth with my original post (and on my second post).
However, each time I'm confronted by an member of the church of RMS who is screaming, "GNU is the best! Linux is nothing without GNU, Only GNU can do it!" I recoil.
It's a sign of arrogance in that community. I know that there is nothing that can be done about it, but it doesn't mean I have to enjoy it.
And besides, GNU could be made into a complete operating system (without a linux kernel) with about the same amount of effort as a linux kernel could be made into a non-GNU dependant operating system. (I am discounting the kernel compile, because after the kernel is compiled there are ways around GCC dependancies). Granted (and I've said this before) it is stupid to do so. Both technologies are good, but I really hate it when people say linux is a piece of crap that can't do anything and GNU is the only thing worth while. If a few million people think something is good and worth using, then obviously there is some merit to it. (Combative argument usually used: Well, they're using GNU more than linux) Regardless, your average user could care less about GNU. However, that is not what RMS should be targetting really - the philosophy of Free Software is encapsulated within Linux without anyone knowing what glibc even is. That is what he should be aiming for - respect for the FSF and for free-as-in-freedom. Not for a silly naming convention, bashing something that has made a tremendous leap in the computing industry (with the help of GNU) which has in turn helped GNU make a tremendous leap.
They work symbiotically, but RMS et al. is insisting that GNU is the foundation - and linux is this little pesky thing that you just have to have. Look to his rewards speech from the IDG/Linus Torvalds award in 99 for evidence of that.
GNU would not have gotten where it was today if it weren't for linux. But none of RMS-disciples decide to look at it that way.
Instead of GNU taking linux where it is, they both helped each other and they both couldn't have gotten to where they are without the other.
My point is, give them both credit where credit is due.
Linux did a lot, GNU did a lot.
They are both good at what they do - Linux brought GNU to the mainstream, there is no denying that. Before 1992 (excluding 91 on purpose) how many people had unix on their desktop computers running a free operating system...
Linux brought that to the world
And with it, a very useful and well designed philosophy and application/library suite.
hahaha
Look kid, before you start coming down on people why the hell dont you actually open your mind.
You little disciples are absolutely horrid. (not a religious reference for anyone curious)
Not only can you not hold a real conversation about Linux or GNU - but you can't even hold a conversation in relation to anthropology and philosphy and trying to identify with other people.
And I'm not trolling for anything. Doesn't matter to me one way or the other. It's kids like you that are ruining all of the old school games, message boards, online games.. all of it. It's sad, but it's inevitable. Everything goes away, but why can it never be useless sacks of flesh like yourself (until you prove a benefit to society otherwise; that is how I perceive you) instead of things passionate people care about?
Another nuance of the world.
I normally dont respond to AC posts
But thank you for proving my point as to the zealot-attitude of RMS-disciples.
You people will just discount any opinion that does not coincide with the "GNU/Linux" philosphy as being portrayed by a mindless idiot that doesn't know what they are talking about.
I just find it funny, how instead of actually reading and listening to what I said you chose to insult me and call me names. Thanks for further backing up the parent post, I appreciate the assistance.
But until you people learn how to actually debate and hold a rational discussion instead of blindly claming everyone is wrong and insult them then you wont gain publicity.
Now how is the clueless moron?
Re-read the above part, "brilliance doesn't win, common sense is required" and you sir, seem to have neither, really.
Hm, well if you weren't so gestapo and close minded you'd understand I was more or less referring to dependance.
Right now, a linux system is typically gnu libc. Hence it relies on GNU.
See my point here?
Just because it uses utilities or whatever doesn't mean jack, and it is because of zealots like yourself that make me cringe at the RMS-tangents that enforce Linux is not an operating system.
Bull shit.
Linux is not an operating system it is a kernel.
GNU is, well.. it's just a bunch of applications and libraries. It's not an operating system either.
Linux is more of an operating system then GNU, because you can get Linux running quite functionally without GNU software.
Am I bashing GNU? No.
Am I saying GNU sucks? No.
Am I saying GNU is necessary at the moment? Absolutely, and it has benefited tremendously.
But Linux is far more of a contribution on both a social level and technical than GNU in my opinion, and until firm evidence is provided otherwise, and not the incessant "RMS said this!" crap that his blind followers spew constantly.
RMS is a hippie, that is the bottom line. He has a idealistic approach -- but c'mon. This is capitalism, and his approach is just like communism. A great system if you kill all the greed. Hell, I'm greedy. I code for money. I enjoy it.
Linus Torvalds understands that, RMS still thinks that people will understand the errors of their ways and just get along.
Until then, I run Linux.. I have GNU utilities that I use on a daily basis. Unfortunately, I think I am so strongly opposed to RMS because of his incessant desire to promote calling it "GNU/Linux" and in that desire often times coming across as either an asshole, or an idiot. Sometimes both. It is a shame because the man is brilliant.. but brilliance doesn't win by itself. You have to have a degree of common sense, and I think that is where RMS is failing miserably at.
I suppose I should have clarified that statement a bit more.
My point was, Linux was a functional operating system *before* GNU was a part of it
While GNU did have a number of utilities on all platforms at the time. There was not ANY operating system that relied and would not be a functional unix system without it. Linux is the first that would be considered dependant on GNU.
That was more or less what I was getting at, also isolating the case to PC users.
My apologies for not being more specific.
I totally agree with you -- and I find it rare that people look at it from that perspective
My best argument for this is that people were using linux before it came with GNU stuff.
People weren't using GNU before it came with Linux
Until people use GNU/Hurds as much as Linux.. I'm calling it Linux.
I was originating the celebration. After they started paying attention I would be surprised if they continued to think that their actions were affecting Mr. Sun God. But hey, stranger things have happened.
Just seems that traditions stick -- I will just illustrating the tradition of the solstice holiday and why it was the season of giving. I mean, look back at Spontaneous Creationism (I think that was the name).. put an oily rag and woodchips in a dark corner for 4 days and that's how rats were created.. Just one of those scientific studies that people enjoy thinking about. Despite the obvious facts..
I'm serious. I was working triple-digit weeks.. I got burned of it, I looked into alternates.
Someone said, contracts rarely work over time cause companies dont want to pay that much..
It's true.. been contracting for almost a year now and it's the best thing I've done. I think it's a US advantage, I dont of know many over sea's contractors.
btw.. wh is supposed to be 'whore'.
network solutions are whores.
whores whores whores.
Actually, if you look at the history of Christmas (and the 'giving' season) you will notice that it is not invented-by-and-for-retailers
The history of christmas isn't even a religious one, way back in the days of cavemen (well, post then but I just like to think of cavemen giving each other rocks.. it's funny.) when the days got shorter and shorter the tribes thought it was because of the sun god getting angry at them for their short comings. So long about December 25th (Keep in mind, the solstice changes - now it is 21st but waaaaay back then it was the 24th I believe) they would celebrate the return of the sun god. They believed it was because of their giving and their charity - not only amongst themselves but through sacrifices to the sun god.
This is how the tradition of christmas got started.. the spirit of being nice to each other to appease the gods to bring longer days..
The religious aspect got started when early christians celebrated the birth of Jesus got whacked by romans or whatever - they had to hide their celebration -- and what better celebration to mask their own tribute to their Lord then the season of giving.
Neat little story. You may go now.
Slashdot Mirror
Thanks- I'm using my work email now which is functional for the domain stuff, I'm not just not releasing it to the public. I haven't updated that page in about a week however, and a few days ago I had to get a dialup account at earthlink so I'm using that one for now.. xerithane@earthlink.net. :)
Thanks - it's real nice to know I have some supports in this
Ok, I'm humor impaired sometimes. :)
The massive amount of frustration with NSI made me this way.
I used to be funny, hell I used to even laugh. NSI has made me into a cold hard shell of my former self.
I apologize
Redundant means it's the same post, over and over again right?
It has the cid of 28 right?
Look at the previous 27 and tell me if any of them talk about what I talked about..
What's that? There aren't?
Do overrated instead, Redundant is dead wrong.
I am so happy to see this
I hope to see a lot more -- I'm generally against a lot of lawsuits but I really have no choice but to feel utter dispise towards that company.
My recent dealings with them have been absolutely horrendous, here is a page about it.
Not only have I had horrible experience with their customer service department, but also they're utilities for updating and registering are so far behind the rest of the competitors I can't imagine why anyone still does business with them.
The biggest thing I dont understand about them, is that since they lost their monopoly they now only account for 40% instead of 100%? A 60% loss in market share and they still seemingly refuse to restructure their obviously defunct customer service department and registration tools?
This, above all, deserves to be a Fucked Company life member.
My worst experience with them, was getting my contact record changed when the email address expired very suddenly. After explaining to them the situation and getting a canned response back then responding to that, then getting another canned response back I finally figured out what to do. You have to FAX them something. Wow, I thought we were living in a digital age, hell no. So I faxed it, nope - they lost it twice! Finally, I get my contact record changed (after 2.5 months of arguing with them) and when I tried to update my domain (nerdfar.org) they are refusing on the grounds that I have not properly proved my identity - yet my contact record is updated.
If there is a law against this I'd love to nail em for it -- not for any money, I just want my domain to be functional again.
Well, this is one hell of a rant.
Morale of the story, screw NSI and use register.com or another one of the registrars because NSI's head is so far up it's ass it's making the slashdot trolls envious.
I dunno, dont watch TV.
If I did I would probably not care because I would be yet another mindless idiot with drool hanging out of my mouth living a voyueristic life instead of doing something with my life so I can afford screenshots of Martin Luther King's assassination and perpetuate this society of stupidity by funding it with my damn tax dollars.
It wouldn't surprise me if this guy is collecting unemployement..
....by Loundry (moc.gnirpsdnim@yrdnoul) .. got the u and the o mixed up ;)
Just so you know.. it's not backwards.
yrdnoul = luondry
I pay almost 50% of all money I get (47%, exactly). I pay more in taxes then most people make in a year..
It's not fair, true - but someone has to do it I suppose
In my home town that I grew up at, in one month I pay more in taxes then some of my old friends yearly income. Granted, they were single and living in apartments running $200/month but it still is ridiculous. The cultural divide based on annual income is huge.
But, I grew up poor and I'm doing really well now so I dont have too much sympathy for people who complain about being poor and never getting a chance to get ahead. I was 12 and 13 working on ranches illegaly to get money for computer parts. I did what I had to do, and it paid off in the end.
I doubt anything is going to change any of that.. it's just the way people are.
But I'll keep paying my 47% and deal with it.
would buy this?
They sell these
I can imagine the scene at the dinner table now...
Mom, Dad, 2.3 kids talking about recent events with a screenshot of OJ killing Nicole..
You know your countries economy is too extreme when they have this stuff for sale, or have an entire chain of stores dedicated to selling plastic storage devices.
Uhm, no they aren't.
Set the crack pipe down, son
And slowly step away...
You dont need it to live a happy life, you can do it without the crack.
As is the method for anything. But, it does work both ways. If Carnivore can do something that is not publicly accessible but there are no laws violated -- it's technically ok. Only when private entities exploit this will there be a law. By that time, Carnivore will probably be accepted into the infastructure and whilst illegal -- no one will say anything.
Write laws first, then software.
That is called at-will employment. Come to california and try to get an assurance on your job.
Works both ways.. and I personally love at-will. It got me out of a bad situation in which I was able to just walk out and say screw it, I'm gone. Just because someone can terminate you at any time for any reason including abscence doesn't mean they are evil.
I worked for the government at one point, I had a great time there. It was a good job, pay sucked but it was fun.
But am I an evil person? Hell no, I am more for freedom than you are -- you know why? You are trying to censor him - I'd be willing to bet you haven't lived 24 years, so how do you know how long of a time that is? It's a long time, and a lot can change. Even if he did work for the DoJ, NSA, CIA, FBI or whatever - he still is a person with his own beliefs, not of the government.
He could have been busy - I know that I usually dont have time to answer an interview when I'm trying to save the world from the ugly claws of the tyrants of the United States of America.
that was a joke by the way
He said "We will review whether Carnivore acquires information not permitted by law or in a manner prohibited by law."
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but could someone clarify what he meant? Seems to me like he said we're just going to find out what illegal information it acquires - I know that's not the intent (hope) but just not clear on it.
All in all, I think he has a justifiable stance. He handled the questions remarkably well, especially about sniffing. I think that people really need to put some faith in other people. I used to work for the government myself - but I have strong ties to freedom and liberty. However if I were on this review team I'd be in the same group. Forget i work on open source software, because I worked for the government I must be a tyrant. I suppose this is a reverse-flame. Just try to be more reasonable and dont attack people because of a job they took. People need to pay the bills, and it was 24 years ago.
Get over it.
Personally I have faith in Perrit's answers and his abilities to conduct a fair review of carnivore. Not like I have a choice if I dont anyway.
What it looks like is you took sentences you wanted, pasted them then responses to those sentences, isolated from everything else.
And besides, being called a friend after a quite insulting (even though polite, still insulting) response is more of a sarcastic gesture, instead of an act of friendship.
As far as the gestapo thing, I was commenting on your tactics - not words. But you seem to have a very hard time seperating tactics from words. You see only words apparently. That's correct, because you were completely wrong
Not in what I intended, I admit I did not say it correctly. Now we could go through any number of what-if's. But your average person was not using GNU before Linux.
It was the movement that brought GNU forward.
So, unless you actually want to understand intent then you really shouldn't write. You are a great writer, and you can analyze quite well - however you are seriously lacking in one area: understanding intent.
When I attempted to correct myself, and clarify what I meant (GNU wasn't used before linux) you threw it out.
From my point of view, your original post implied the following: "I am right, you are wrong and stupid"
If that's not true, then I misread your intent.. but considering you constantly miss the intent of my responses I'm thinking more and more that I was correct. My secondary post was in the "Well, this guy wants to be an asshole, fine" mode. That was my mistake. And I am sorry if you think I have caused you some great disservice by reacting in a manner that I felt and still feel was rational and deserved.
I can handle being shown I'm wrong.
I can handle being wrong.
It's the method that determines my reaction. And, you choose the wrong method if you want a friendly response.
And about the $5K - not only is a debate or argument not worth *any* money to me (whether I win or lose) it is really a stupid and infantile "my penis is bigger than your penis" action right there.
And on a final note
Your post, from my perspective had all of the following traits:
closed mindedness, which I demonstrated and you chose to ignore (only turn isolated sentences back to me, instead of offering an explanation - and no, Jesus Christ inside of Buffalo Dung would be an exception.. however I am in front of a computer, which would imply being neck deep as a metaphor for oblivious/stupidity and any other implication would probably be valid)
gestapo - your approach was incorrect from my point of view. Instead of offering either a chance for me to defend my perspective, nor to offer counter actions - you insulted me first. Do not deny that, read my above explanation of buffalo dung. That is a bully tactic whether you like it or not. Intimidation then explanation is shoot first, ask later - it doesn't work. Heaven forbid someone shoot back, right?
Zealot - you pursue something with honest interest and passion.
Which of these 3 things is not true? I'd really like to know because if anything, you have proven them more true!
However:
Physician, heal thyself. Dunno what exactly that means.
Also, there is no right or wrong - only consequences. No high road, no low road. Maybe that's your problem - you are trying to prove me wrong when I don't believe there is such a thing.
I wasn't smearing you. That was my point. Obviously you are going to continue to take a holier-than-thou stance and fight for the last word. But, I'll defend this one last thing and go on with my merry life.
Believe what you want. This "public smearing" campaign you think I have against you is bogus -- I have not said anything that wasn't demonstrated to be truthful.
Hell, if you weren't so gestapo and close-minded..
Let me tell you from what portion of your post I decided that from:
If that's your "best argument", you're neck-deep in buffalo dung, my friend, for that argument is exactly backwards. There are arguments for and against this - however I am talking about responses, and your immediate response is that I am completely wrong and implying that I am not only stupid but oblivious. That is a sign of close-mindedness. And in portraying the other person as blatantly wrong and illustrating dominance *before* any arguments are made is an act of gestapo tactics - You will fear me now!.
Not that I insist you change your mind now that you've been given a clue about GNU/Linux history..
Oh, thank you I didn't know what GNU was running on before then... really.. I didn't... - I'm sure you are an authoritative figure to give history lessons. Hm.. you aren't? Damn, then I guess that makes you just a passionate and very interested follower, in order to know so much about it. Wait a second.. passionate believer in something.. Holy Broken Argument batman! That's a zealot.
If you dont believe me: One who is zealous; one who engages warmly in any cause, and pursues his object with earnestness and ardor;
Damn, here I thought that was a compliment, people believe in things - that is what makes arguments fun. But no, you have to assume I was smearing you with my "universal truths"... however find me a person who is completely open minded and I'll show you a person who can't do anything (really think about that one if you dont understand it).
Ok, so now I'll do what you do here:
*clear throat*
So now I've corrected your views, I'm sure you wish to apologize for your blatant misinterpretation and being neck deep in >insert-favorite-animal<-dung..
Well, it has been very nice talking to you -- continue to believe what you want to believe, but understand that people have different perspectives and that's ok. But try in the future, instead of immediately challenging the person (see buffalo-dung quote above) engage in a friendly debate, here's something a little different:
Sorry, I really don't agree with you or see your point on this, GNU had been used on numerous different kernels before Linux was even a twinkle in Linus' eye.
See the difference between the two - one is friendly, one is not. If you choose the one that is not, don't expect the person to be nice afterwards.
That isn't a lie, everybody is to a certain extent about certain things. Anybody who says they are not are lying to themselves -- the worst person to lie to. Instead of thinking about what I meant - you immediately had to take a confrontational approach, instead of asking for clarification on points. That is a sign of closed-mindedness if I ever saw one, but I could be wrong - I could have misinterpreted your response.. but judging from the way you wrote your second one that is not likely. You seem to have the "my way is right, here's facts to prove it" philosphy, which is good -- but don't ignore facts that disprove it either.
And You are a zealot.
I myself am I zealot, just on the opposite side of the fence. I think that we zealots are what make the world go around.
And I do I agree I should have been more in depth with my original post (and on my second post).
However, each time I'm confronted by an member of the church of RMS who is screaming, "GNU is the best! Linux is nothing without GNU, Only GNU can do it!" I recoil.
It's a sign of arrogance in that community. I know that there is nothing that can be done about it, but it doesn't mean I have to enjoy it.
And besides, GNU could be made into a complete operating system (without a linux kernel) with about the same amount of effort as a linux kernel could be made into a non-GNU dependant operating system. (I am discounting the kernel compile, because after the kernel is compiled there are ways around GCC dependancies). Granted (and I've said this before) it is stupid to do so. Both technologies are good, but I really hate it when people say linux is a piece of crap that can't do anything and GNU is the only thing worth while. If a few million people think something is good and worth using, then obviously there is some merit to it. (Combative argument usually used: Well, they're using GNU more than linux) Regardless, your average user could care less about GNU. However, that is not what RMS should be targetting really - the philosophy of Free Software is encapsulated within Linux without anyone knowing what glibc even is. That is what he should be aiming for - respect for the FSF and for free-as-in-freedom. Not for a silly naming convention, bashing something that has made a tremendous leap in the computing industry (with the help of GNU) which has in turn helped GNU make a tremendous leap.
They work symbiotically, but RMS et al. is insisting that GNU is the foundation - and linux is this little pesky thing that you just have to have. Look to his rewards speech from the IDG/Linus Torvalds award in 99 for evidence of that.
GNU would not have gotten where it was today if it weren't for linux. But none of RMS-disciples decide to look at it that way.
Instead of GNU taking linux where it is, they both helped each other and they both couldn't have gotten to where they are without the other.
My point is, give them both credit where credit is due.
Linux did a lot, GNU did a lot.
They are both good at what they do - Linux brought GNU to the mainstream, there is no denying that. Before 1992 (excluding 91 on purpose) how many people had unix on their desktop computers running a free operating system...
Linux brought that to the world
And with it, a very useful and well designed philosophy and application/library suite.
hahaha
Look kid, before you start coming down on people why the hell dont you actually open your mind.
You little disciples are absolutely horrid. (not a religious reference for anyone curious)
Not only can you not hold a real conversation about Linux or GNU - but you can't even hold a conversation in relation to anthropology and philosphy and trying to identify with other people.
And I'm not trolling for anything.
Doesn't matter to me one way or the other. It's kids like you that are ruining all of the old school games, message boards, online games.. all of it. It's sad, but it's inevitable. Everything goes away, but why can it never be useless sacks of flesh like yourself (until you prove a benefit to society otherwise; that is how I perceive you) instead of things passionate people care about?
Another nuance of the world.
I normally dont respond to AC posts
But thank you for proving my point as to the zealot-attitude of RMS-disciples.
You people will just discount any opinion that does not coincide with the "GNU/Linux" philosphy as being portrayed by a mindless idiot that doesn't know what they are talking about.
I just find it funny, how instead of actually reading and listening to what I said you chose to insult me and call me names. Thanks for further backing up the parent post, I appreciate the assistance.
But until you people learn how to actually debate and hold a rational discussion instead of blindly claming everyone is wrong and insult them then you wont gain publicity.
Now how is the clueless moron?
Re-read the above part, "brilliance doesn't win, common sense is required" and you sir, seem to have neither, really.
Hm, well if you weren't so gestapo and close minded you'd understand I was more or less referring to dependance.
Right now, a linux system is typically gnu libc. Hence it relies on GNU.
See my point here?
Just because it uses utilities or whatever doesn't mean jack, and it is because of zealots like yourself that make me cringe at the RMS-tangents that enforce Linux is not an operating system.
Bull shit.
Linux is not an operating system it is a kernel.
GNU is, well.. it's just a bunch of applications and libraries. It's not an operating system either.
Linux is more of an operating system then GNU, because you can get Linux running quite functionally without GNU software.
Am I bashing GNU? No.
Am I saying GNU sucks? No.
Am I saying GNU is necessary at the moment? Absolutely, and it has benefited tremendously.
But Linux is far more of a contribution on both a social level and technical than GNU in my opinion, and until firm evidence is provided otherwise, and not the incessant "RMS said this!" crap that his blind followers spew constantly.
RMS is a hippie, that is the bottom line. He has a idealistic approach -- but c'mon. This is capitalism, and his approach is just like communism. A great system if you kill all the greed. Hell, I'm greedy. I code for money. I enjoy it.
Linus Torvalds understands that, RMS still thinks that people will understand the errors of their ways and just get along.
Until then, I run Linux.. I have GNU utilities that I use on a daily basis. Unfortunately, I think I am so strongly opposed to RMS because of his incessant desire to promote calling it "GNU/Linux" and in that desire often times coming across as either an asshole, or an idiot. Sometimes both. It is a shame because the man is brilliant.. but brilliance doesn't win by itself. You have to have a degree of common sense, and I think that is where RMS is failing miserably at.
I suppose I should have clarified that statement a bit more.
My point was, Linux was a functional operating system *before* GNU was a part of it
While GNU did have a number of utilities on all platforms at the time. There was not ANY operating system that relied and would not be a functional unix system without it.
Linux is the first that would be considered dependant on GNU.
That was more or less what I was getting at, also isolating the case to PC users.
My apologies for not being more specific.
I totally agree with you -- and I find it rare that people look at it from that perspective
My best argument for this is that people were using linux before it came with GNU stuff.
People weren't using GNU before it came with Linux
Until people use GNU/Hurds as much as Linux.. I'm calling it Linux.
I was originating the celebration. After they started paying attention I would be surprised if they continued to think that their actions were affecting Mr. Sun God. But hey, stranger things have happened.
Just seems that traditions stick -- I will just illustrating the tradition of the solstice holiday and why it was the season of giving. I mean, look back at Spontaneous Creationism (I think that was the name).. put an oily rag and woodchips in a dark corner for 4 days and that's how rats were created.. Just one of those scientific studies that people enjoy thinking about. Despite the obvious facts..
I'm serious. I was working triple-digit weeks.. I got burned of it, I looked into alternates.
Someone said, contracts rarely work over time cause companies dont want to pay that much..
It's true.. been contracting for almost a year now and it's the best thing I've done. I think it's a US advantage, I dont of know many over sea's contractors.
btw.. wh is supposed to be 'whore'.
network solutions are whores.
whores whores whores.
Actually, if you look at the history of Christmas (and the 'giving' season) you will notice that it is not invented-by-and-for-retailers
The history of christmas isn't even a religious one, way back in the days of cavemen (well, post then but I just like to think of cavemen giving each other rocks.. it's funny.) when the days got shorter and shorter the tribes thought it was because of the sun god getting angry at them for their short comings. So long about December 25th (Keep in mind, the solstice changes - now it is 21st but waaaaay back then it was the 24th I believe) they would celebrate the return of the sun god. They believed it was because of their giving and their charity - not only amongst themselves but through sacrifices to the sun god.
This is how the tradition of christmas got started.. the spirit of being nice to each other to appease the gods to bring longer days..
The religious aspect got started when early christians celebrated the birth of Jesus got whacked by romans or whatever - they had to hide their celebration -- and what better celebration to mask their own tribute to their Lord then the season of giving.
Neat little story. You may go now.