Sorry, but that's a flawed analogy. Try this: You have a wife. Someone (who you think is a pretty sick f*ck) says ``y'know, I was thinking about picking up that new Glock; it looks pretty cool.'' So you kill him, because he might at some point in the future actually buy that gun, and might if he buys it, think about pointing it at your wife.
Ok, lets make it a little more accurate. He pointed a gun at my wife in the past. I took his gun away. He says, "I have another gun, and your wife looks really nice to shoot in the head."
Sorry, between my wife or your life, I choose my wife.
Who the hell cares if he never disarms? It's not our damned country. We have no room to talk about nukes -- we've been the only nation thus far to ever use one in combat. It sickens me, my country's arrogance.
I do, because he promised to do so. When he invaded Kuwait, and on UN charter America stepped in and stopped Iraq. He promised to disarm, and he failed.
Make good on your word or be punished; now he is being punished.
Every person on earth knows that if a single nuke were launched from any rougue nation (like Iraq), they'd be vasprozed from the planet by every nuclear power that existed. They'd get only one shot.
Lets say you have a wife. If someone pulls a gun and aims it at her head, do you wait till he pulls the trigger until you do something? If you have the capability to stop him before he pulls the trigger, you know that you can stop him but you have to kill him. Who do you choose?
actually Sun didnt start hiring h1-b workers en mass until about 3 years ago. (in the tech area, not sure about sales) which was about the time they raised the h1-b visa count to help ease the need for warm bodies in the tech industry.
I suppose you have to define en mass. I know that in 1998 they were hiring a lot of H1-Bs in their Palo Alto campus. There was not the huge push for H1-Bs until 1999 though, because the companies overquoted the job demands so INS would allow more H1-B visas to be issued.
The INS is so fucked up anyway, they are on par with the USPTO.
Re:This raises two important questions:
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Bug Reporting Etiquette
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· Score: 2, Interesting
Dude. Chill. Remember that while reading TFM is an excellent map from {Linux commands} to {what they do}, there is not a simple inverse map from {what you want to do} to {Linux command}. apropos and Google are decent steps, but they don't always give you the answer even if you know how to search.
Ok, asking for a hosting providor that costs less than $100 when I post a comment that says, "There are plenty of hosting sites that offer dedicated servers for around $100" is the line that I will not respond.
It is much easier just to ask someone who knows what they're doing and can answer in 5 minutes than to spend hours googling and crawling the man pages. I have several friends who have been using Linux for a year or so, and when we can't figure something out, we IM / write each other and ask, and it's better that way.
There is a difference between IM'ing a friend and emailing someone you don't know. Finding out a simple solution in google takes them less time.
If you have a fish that you're not going to eat, why not give it to a man?
Because it promotes laziness, however, I will gladly trade it for services. I do not give things away, I make people work for them. Very few things in life were given to me, and I had to work for everything I have. I'm not saying it's the way I'll raise my kids, but I'm not going to help someone out just because they need a fish. They're going to work for it, then they get a fish.
Probably the most irritating phrase I see as an open source software person is "thanking you in advance for your prompt reply!!" That just makes me want to not respond to your email right away. I am a coordinator for a fairly large and active project. I can't always get to your email right away all the time.
If anybody emails me with a stupid question, regardless of how nice it is, will not get a response. I get this shit all the time, usually from dimwits on here. They read a comment, then email me asking for more information that a simple google search will reveal for them.
Feed a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you give up your monopoly on fisheries. Ignore the idiot who can't figure out how to fish on his own, when there are free books on the subject everywhere around him, and he ceases to be your problem.
Do corporate taxes account for more? While it might not still be the case, I remember seeing an article about how companies like Sun, Cisco and Microsoft used tax loopholes to pay -zero- federal taxes. You're also assuming that there are no additional costs associated with outsourcing jobs. This, especially in technical fields, is definitely not the case.
That is largely FUD, and wrong. They do pay a significant amount in taxes. There are additional costs with outsourcing. Such as buying the computers (which will most likely come from US vendors), software (which will most likely come from US Vendors), equipment (which will most likely come from US Vendors).
I've worked as the American liason to an outsourced development team. We had all sorts of issues like the time difference between the US and India, underqualified developers, limited english skills (part of maintainable code is comments...most of my development time was spent re-writing comments). We probably saved approximately %20 over what we would have spent hiring Americans to do the same job and it was, on the whole, a lot messier process to deal with (more unpredictable...a bad thing in business).
I do this all the time, and just finished acting as a security sounding board for a pretty large project that is being outsourced to an Indian firm. They do save money, quite a bit of it. It all depends upon who you hire, and how much you pay. There are some amazingly good firms based out of India. There are also some shitty ones. I've worked in a place where their was an entire perl script consisting of about 2K lines that had 4 comments in it, "This part is documented in the horse book on page XXX." American coder, guy was a joke. I've met tons of idiotic programmers, and most of them haven't been Indian (I can only think of 2, actually.)
Think about it...if hiring a coder abroad didn't have all sorts of hidden costs associated with it, why would Sun even deal with hiring H1-Bs that they have to pay %60-%70 of what they'd pay an American if they could get the same thing for $6/hr? I'm confused where this turned into competition of H1-Bs and Outsourcing. Some projects, such as isolated projects, are fine for outsourcing. Things like kernel additions, or things that require working with a team of experienced people should be kept local.
Choose the best tool for a job, whether it's outsourcing or local employees. If the best tool for a job happens to ask for $80K and the second best tool happens to ask for $50K and there isn't much difference in their skills, pick the $50Ker and give yourself a nice bonus:)
I have a feeling we feel pretty similar here, there's just a few sticking points. We both see that a lot of the anti-foreigner rhetoric is being spouted by people who are unemployed and scared about what the future might hold for them. But I think my point boils down to the fact that it is better for the country as a whole for the government to make every effort to keep jobs in this country.
I really hate the anti-foreigner speech that goes on. If anybody is scared what the future holds for them, I would suggest that person stop being a whiney bitch and start improving themselves. There is that Sean Connery line, "Losers always whine about their best, while winners go home and fuck the prom queen."
Sean Connery can answer all of lifes greatest questions.
As for the government protecting US jobs, I believe in part you are correct. H1-Bs do get abused all the time, and that is messed up. Suing a company for using the best tool for the job is just dumb. Bitching about a company using the best tool for the job is just dumb. Bitching at the government for issuing too many H1-Bs is not dumb. Saying that foreigners are destroying the economy is dumb, and all those people need to remember that at one time, they were foreigners too. I'm a pretty recent addition to America, and still have a lot of memories of hearing stories a
I am on a H1-B. I get paid $100K a year. I worked my fucking tail off to be where I am today. The reason there are h1-bs are because this is a free-market. The companies ultimate goal is to make money. That is the raison' de etre of all corporations. H1-bs are not cheap labor stealing your job. They are competitors in a free job market. They don't even get unemployment benefits though they pay social security. But their payscales are on par. I am from India. And I know what poor is ! so don't give me that shit.
Please, everybody read this. It's a shame it came from an AC, but this is the best argument I can see supporting H1-Bs.
Where I am working now, security from an internal point of view is non-existent. The only place that I've worked that has good security, I'm not really allowed to talk about because of all those pesky NDA type things. *shrug*
See, here's where I think you're a bit off. The government's job is not just to protect corporations and their profits. That may seem like what they're doing now, but it's not what they're supposed to be doing. A while back (around the time of the Civil War), one of our presidents put it better than I can hope to do here, "...Government of the people, by the people and for the people..."
It's up to the people to take responsibility for their own lives. For a society that prides itself on free trade and competition, and anti-monopolistic environments, the natives tend to want a monopoly on the jobs and not let the outsiders.
It should do this if only to maintain the tax revenue generated by a working public. A skilled worker at Sun making $80k/year will pay about $15k per year in federal taxes and about $5k in state taxes. That same job filled by a skilled Indian worker generates nothing for the government. When you add in unemployment compensation and everything else that goes along with shipping jobs overseas, I think we all have a right to cry foul to our government when we see them making policies that do not discourage companies from laying off American workers.
But corporate taxes ammount to much more than individual taxes. If you take the $30K a year, per employee, that the corporation is saving and it turns into profit or a higher revenue stream than taxes increase. That and there are more sales because they hire on more staff at a lower rate. Corporate taxes increase, individual taxes decrease.
Basically, were I to be unemployed (I'm not, lest you think by the argument that I'm making that I am), Your arguments are much too well thought out for you to be unemployed, or in danger of being that way. Most of the opposing side who are unemployed, or in danger of, respond with knee-jerk, FUD-filled comments.
I would have no right to complain to the government about my personal situation. That is my own responsibility. But I have every right to complain about the broader situation that we as a country are facing. Our government should represent us first, not our employers.
My issue is that there has always been millions of lay offs. As society evolves, the layoffs happen in different sectors, and there is still an economical gain. It's important to not lose the focus of the forest, by only looking at a specific type of tree.
This is all slightly moot as the fact that your network card did not have a recognised MAC address for that network cable would have alerted security about.2 seconds after your machine passed POST.
This is actually what I was looking for as an answer:-)
I could go on but I might have to shoot you.;) Oh damn, not again...
But if someone else can do an adequate job for less, and they don't have the same costs placed on me by my country, then damn skippy I'm going to be upset.
Make sure that you don't blame yourself first. Because you know, there is that big gun pointed at your head that is telling you that you can't voluntarily lower your salary to match and stay employed.
Heaven forbid you actually be accountable for your own life.
dont bother arguing with X, he is a hopeless globablist. and he seems to think americans suck at their jobs. or that for some reason some MCSE bootcamp graduate over in india always does it better.....
Did you miss the part where I said that I'm an American? I don't think all Americans suck at their jobs, just a lot of them. And they suck in comparison to what can be accomplished for less money by other people. Not my fault the rest of you are racist.
what is rather amusing is that Sun started doing this three years ago -and i do outsourcing work for them - and now they are losing money hand over fist because of bad management and lack of technical skill, management sent the jobs to india and the india techs suck.
News flash for you; Sun started hiring H1-B workers many more years ago than 3. This is about hiring H1-B workers, not outsourcing. Americans are bitching because H1-B workers are coming in and working for less money, without realizing that they can price match and work for a competitive rate. This goes into my loathing for American lack of accountability. Why Americans sue because they're fat and didn't realize McDonalds wasn't helping that. 11% of Americans between 18-24 can't locate America on a map. 87% couldn't find Iraq. You expect me to think the majority of Americans aren't idiots? It's never their fault, it's the man. It's the H1-Bs. It's the overseas workers. Whatever. It's the lack of personal accountability that causes Americans to be where they are at, and I have no sympathy.
People do not have a right to two cars, a huge house, overseas vacations, etc. They do however have a right to a government that looks out for the well-being of their own nation, their own people.
No, but people have the right to be able to get two cars, a huge house, overaseas vacations. Regardless of where they are from, everybody has the right to work towards that. Every year, an average 3.3 million people are laid off in America. This happened before the.com era, and will continue to happen. You are entitled no job, if someone else can do it cheaper and better than you. If you cry to your government about it, it means that you are a complete fuckwad who has no sense of personal responsibility.
It isn't about making a profit at all costs for these companies. It's about ensuring the well-being of ALL people, both here and elsewhere. If these people were to get paid comparatively, then their standard of living would go up, but instead you insist on bringing MY standard of living down.
There is a reason why people get chosen to be laid off. You insist on bringing your standard of living down. You are responsible, and accountable. If these people were paid comparatively, you would still get laid off because they would probably still do it better. Your standard of living is a direct result of your capabilities, in the environment you are in. You are not entitled to a high paying job purely because you have experience in that field; if you suck, oh well, the unemployement line is over there.
In this case please take out your adimin and shoot him as he is too stupid to live.
I'm just saying, in general. For my home machines, I don't bother with this. If someone breaks into my home, I doubt they care about any software based security, as they can just take the hardware. Depending upon the security necessary in your environment, it changes what you do.
Our machines here (high-sec enviroment) boot from network and my extremely locked down server checksums the bootblock (checksum and boot block are on non writable, non-removable media). Yes, we're paranoid.
What about someone bringing in a laptop and connecting it to the network? I've seen fairly high security environments that never took that into account.
At least in Debian, even with "linux single" you have to type the root password to get root. And any installation with the least pretense of security has always disabled user parameters for LILO, of course. Just like it had to disable e.g. booting from a disk.
I know the Red Hat series it still works... I haven't tried it for years. The distribution installation can't change the BIOS boot order though. If a CD/Floppy drive is accessible, it's up to the user to change the BIOS boot order, not the distribution.
no, the definition is correct, see american heritage dictionary and websters. i mean GNP like as in the TOTAL gross product of this country, not GDP as in the gross NATIONAL/LOCAL production of this country.
GNP is the total gross product of a nation, including workers abroad.
GDP is the total gross product of a nation, only counting those that are inside of the borders.
hell why dont you go back and read the damn article it says the same damn thing i am saying. The article is pure FUD. It's meant to generate click-throughs by reinstating the same recycled arguments against the push for overseas outsourced manufacturing plants. It worked, it got all you people rabid about anybody who says that this is a good thing that it's happening.
Newsflash: It was good when it happened to manufacturing. It is good that it's happening to IT.
Just because you don't like it, and don't want yourself or your friends to be unemployed, doesn't mean it isn't true.
and again i have seen the world, its a nice place. but i live HERE so i am concerned with HERE. just like i will be concerned with europe when i move this summer.
Enjoy the relocation, too hot for me outside of London which is too crowded for me, or Dublin which rains too much. Hope it goes well for you.
I mean this sincere, just because I think your opinions on this matter are idiotic, I don't hold anything against you. Just your opinions:)
Again, you do nothing but completely dodge the issue at hand. You are incapable of forming a coherent argument in any manner. You have not once addressed the simple fact that I can not legally work in this country for $4 an hour. Because of minimun wage laws non existant in other countries, I am by law unable to compete. You refuse to address this issue because you think anything that anything that is unfair to Americans is good for everyone else. You have not given any credibility to a single argument. You simply make unsubstantiated remarks, and when called on that you respond only with more unsubstatiated remarks.
Why can you not work in those countries? It is not impossible to get a work visa. If you have applicable work experience, you should be able to secure a visa just fine. In fact, you could probably talk to the outsourcing vendor about going in as management because you have domestic experience. You raise issues that are fundamentally not my problem. The individuals that are losing out to the competition are sacrifices that are made for a global economy. This is what you are failing, consistently, to understand.
That's funny, because the DMCA has yet to be used successfully in terms of prosection. Each time it has actually been brought into court, the plaintiff has withdrawn charges, or lost. A law isn't unconstitutional until the supreme court deems it to be so. It has so far only been abused as a threat, and these "Small time" threats against these people "Who can do nothing about it" has prompted legislation to explicitly protect the rights of these people as well as legislation to ammend the supposed unconstitutional portions of the otherwise completley constitutional DMCA.
Right, I guess you can tell the EFF to stop worrying about it then. They'll probably really appreciate your input on how it is only used for "small time threats."
Thank you for again proving to the world that you are a complete and total idiot. Scaled localized pricing? I guess this just exists because of the natural order of the economy and not based on factors of import taxation, localized affordability based on labor laws or lack thereof, levels of taxation by municipality, providence or state, inflation, deflation, developmental status, healthcare state, welfare, or any other localized factors relevant to fair economic trade on a global scale. Each of your blanket assertations takes in no account for any of the obvious relevant factors. You make an inane comment, and hold it as a rule of economy.
Considering that manufacturing has already accomplished all of this in a variety of countries, I stand to be correct in all of this. All those things made in China, Taiwan, etc. and exported out are still cheaper. You can also buy most of those things in those countries for relatively cheap. For instance, in Spain (this is a somewhat poor example, but is drastic and true), specifically Toledo, they have a sword manufacturing plant (The Factory) where you can buy the swords made for roughly the equivalent of about $80. In the US, the same sword will cost at least three times as much. This is mass produced, and the Spaniards get much money for it. You are attempting to add complex variables into a simple system, and prove you are right. This doesn't work.
You are attempting to take extreme examples, which are completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Why would there be a plethora of extra taxes on something manufactured in that country? Because a lot of industries don't have to pay extra taxes to sell to the locals, it ends up being remarkably cheaper. Take silk suits, buy one in Thailand that is custom tailored for $500. Buy the same suit pre-tailoring, mass produced in Thailand, but in the US and it becomes more expensive.
I'm just failing to understand how any of this is relevant to how outsourcing technical support and development to countries.
I have already proven you wrong and absurd. You constantly take single case sc
Does that mean you have to be at the keyboard, or does that mean you have to have access to the box itself? (a shutdown/restart exploit?)
This means that you have to already have an existing user account on the system, running in user space. You cannot exploit the box without having (control of) a user account.
If you are at the keyboard, you can usually get root instantly on Linux. "lilo: linux single"
this is the last response i am going to bother firing back to you. cause i am sick and tired of YOUR backassward logic.
This is really funny. You don't have any clue about economics, yet you try to find fault in my logic.
and actually its not hb-1 or h1-b its H-1B, so if you are going to try and correct me PLEASE do some friggin research first. its funny you think i dont know about something cause i mis-typed a name.
Uhm, mis-type is once. Not 5 times, dipshit. You are right, it's H-1B. Or H1B, as it is often cited in INS works. I know more about F and M visas though.
GNP = The total market value of all the goods and services produced by a nation during a specified period.
GDP = GDP The total market value of all the goods and services produced within the borders of a nation during a specified period.
You do realize this is wrong, right? GNP is produced by the nationals of that country, and that is what I intended when I used it. Everybody in the US. The way you are using GNP, you mean GDP. Which is what is produced inside the borders, regardless of what passport they hold.
AFRICA ? why don't you move your wannabe saint ass to africa and drop me a line in a few years. because quite frankly you seem to know so much maybe you could help with the education program over there.
Spent time in Africa. I don't want to go back. Unlike you, I've actually seen the world. So take your stupid little ignorant views and shove them up your ass. You are crying like a little boy who doesn't want to share his toys.
and I was utterly disappointed to read, "This transfers at a rate of 11mbps, that's roughly equivalent to 10 minutes of digital music or 500 single page word documents every second."
I really wish people would stop using this "roughly equivalent" analogy. What type of digital music are we talking? It doesn't answer anything really. If we're talking about a.WAV or other lossless format, 11mbits a second transfers what... a minute, if that a second? Nevermind the lack of understanding of big-B vs. little-B.
This is off-topic, just something I read and wanted to bitch about.
Again you miss the point that tech support is NOT high wage. Tech Support is the lowest rung on the IT ladder. Aside from that, while this article may focus on "high tech" jobs, this article was not the be all and end all of outsourced work in the US. I guess if it's not posted on slashdot, it's none of your concern, right?
Localize it. Put it in the Philipines or in India, where tech support is high wage. Ok? And did you read the articles? The CNN article says, "A variety of industries," yet only mentions IT, specifically IT service industry. The Salon article states, "Take this tech job and shove it."
I guess you don't understand the difference between average income and single case income. $3200 is not much more than $2500. You seem to really enjoy focusing on the low cost of living for the incredibly small precentage making a "decent money" while completely ignoring the low standard and high cost of living for everyone else. As I said, I know of at least three icredibly competent system developers who made $200 or less a month. Do you think an entry level Dell support technician is going to make even close to that?
$600 * 12 = $7200 a year. That is much different than $2500 a year. You know, by a factor of 3. You may know 3, but I know many more than that who would laugh at them. And yes, an entry level support tech will make more than that. I know first hand how much they pay to outsource to various companies. For instance, one major tech support outsourcing company pays $4+ an hour for tech support in Manila. Depending upon the account, it goes up, but I've yet to hear someone making less than $4 an hour.
Each of these techs must have computers. They hire 3x as many techs, they sell 3x as many computers, licenses, phone systems. See how that works? Everybody sells more.
Comments about sweatshops are far from irrelevant. What makes you think that tech support absolutely and positively will not be done in sweatshops? You've done nothing but dodge the issue, because you don't have an answer. Human rights elements are critical in any discussion of global economics, the fact that you consistantly ignore them doesn't mean they become any less of a factor. Ok, how are people in sweatshops going to learn English? How are they going to sound helpful and cheerful, which is penultimate in doing tech support. CNN has also said that 71% of companies polled show that overseas workers get better results than domestic workers. I have already answered this; sweatshop workers will deliver lower quality of work.
Your China example is absurd, because in order for it to work, China would have to increase their GDP above that of the US. Try another example. Also try to get it through your dumbass brain that I'm not anti-US. I'm anti-I'm-a-little-crying-bitch-American-who-thinks -Americans-deserve-everything. Got it? Yes, this means you.
I just bought a meal from McDonalds and it cost me $5.85. It cost me that much because supposedly that's what it costs for an American company to make money off of that particular product. If I could get my happy meal from Russia for $0.15 I wouldn't need to make much money. If it were possible to get happy meals from russia there would be a $4.70 cent tax placed on it.
And I can eat better than McDonalds on about a dollar a day in Morocco, what's your point? Or I can go to a tourist cafe and pay $5 for kooskoos. Or I can still go to McDonalds, and it's about 1/3 of the cost. In Japan, McDonalds and Starbucks cost more. That's the wonder of scaled and localized pricing! Amazing what these kids will think of next.
You don't have much logic to be flawed, becuase you missed the point of my argument completely, but your argument that the US outsourcing jobs can only be a good thing is also flawed. You proved it best yourself with your case study of outsourced tech support to the Phillipines. We came in, created an artificial market, and pull
you again fail to understand the point or explain how the hell someone who makes 1/3rd what we do can afford what we do.
Because they only pay $50 a month in rent? Or that food is amazingly cheap? Do you really think that all these overseas workers are using an abacus or some shit? Do you understand that for the 3 workers that get hired overseas for each American that gets laid off, that is 3 more computers with Windows or Unix vendor licenses. How do you think they work? I mean... come on, use your head here.
if china has the same GNP has us they STILL wont account for as much "spending" (on luxury items, like computers, cars etc..) because the GNP per person won't be anywhere near as high as it is here. which means less HP and Sun and IBM shit being sold, which means more jobs go BYE BYE.
Well, you have just proven you don't know anything about economics. We now use GDP, not GNP. You are not qualified to argue about economical issues; just admit that you do not know enough about economics to continue to argue.
and your goddamn right i think HB-1 is bullshit, but i shouldnt have said the people using it are jackasses i should have said the EMPLOYERS using it are jackasses.
You are an idiot. I've continuously pointed out that it is H1-B and you continuously fail to actually know what it is you loathe so much. It's really funny to see people spew such venom about something and not even call it by the right name. That takes a certain amount of talent, which you have plenty of.
oh and by the way if im racist for disliking people coming here and taking jobs that should be hired for locally YOUR racist for hating america which you obviously do, and no despite what you seem to think im not a flag waving asshole i want out of this country and i am planning on leaving this summer for the simple reason of OUR ECONOMY IS GOING TO SHIT !
No, I don't hate America. I don't hate Americans. What I do hate are backwards ass, idiotic Americans who think that their country is the best country in the world and the only place where things are "real." Like yourself. For the record, I was born in the US. I hold a US passport. I don't want to live in anywhere but the US because it has the best quality of life. Does it mean I like everything here? Fuck no. And considering I think that a good percentage, in the range of 20-30%, of the population should be forced to go spend some time in Africa to open their eyes a little bit. This includes you. You don't even have one little clue about the world, outside of your little, tiny, country.
what job gets over 500 applicants ? how about anything in NYC, Silicon valley and around seattle. you think i am joking ? pick a decent job out in SF, or NYC from monster, and call up the person taking applications, ask them how many applications they have gotten for the job. I have a friend who is a head hunter in NY the amount of offers is sick. hundreds of thousands of people have lost their jobs since january 1st. and lets not forget the job market wasnt exactly great last year.
Ok, on average, every year, not just in the last couple years there is a total of 3.3 million people laid off. Suddenly because it happens in your industry it's a tragedy. News for you; The world keeps turning, in case you failed to notice it. You seem to want me to explain to the nimrods who can't get jobs how they should live, but that isn't my responsibility. My responsibility is to do what I am expected, and get paid for it. Last I checked, on my list of expected things to do, taking care of inadequate Americans wasn't on it. I'll double check it though, just for you.
The last thing I need is to not be able to find the DeCSS haiku because your government doesn't like it.:)
Ah, you are Canadian judging by your email address. You may not have an army, but at least you can view the DeCSS haiku and easily smack a french person.
This is more of my point, Google isn't a public tool any more than any other internet site is. Especially not one that is more in debt to the US than to China. Yes, they are located in the US, but no, they don't need to cater to the whims of idealistic Americans at the sacrifice of getting blocked by the Chinese government.
I keep using China for this thread... I should switch to Australia or something. Nothing quite gets the point across as the Great Firewall though.
Slashdot Mirror
Sorry, but that's a flawed analogy. Try this: You have a wife. Someone (who you think is a pretty sick f*ck) says ``y'know, I was thinking about picking up that new Glock; it looks pretty cool.'' So you kill him, because he might at some point in the future actually buy that gun, and might if he buys it, think about pointing it at your wife.
Ok, lets make it a little more accurate. He pointed a gun at my wife in the past. I took his gun away. He says, "I have another gun, and your wife looks really nice to shoot in the head."
Sorry, between my wife or your life, I choose my wife.
Who the hell cares if he never disarms? It's not our damned country. We have no room to talk about nukes -- we've been the only nation thus far to ever use one in combat. It sickens me, my country's arrogance.
I do, because he promised to do so. When he invaded Kuwait, and on UN charter America stepped in and stopped Iraq. He promised to disarm, and he failed.
Make good on your word or be punished; now he is being punished.
Every person on earth knows that if a single nuke were launched from any rougue nation (like Iraq), they'd be vasprozed from the planet by every nuclear power that existed. They'd get only one shot.
Lets say you have a wife. If someone pulls a gun and aims it at her head, do you wait till he pulls the trigger until you do something? If you have the capability to stop him before he pulls the trigger, you know that you can stop him but you have to kill him. Who do you choose?
actually Sun didnt start hiring h1-b workers en mass until about 3 years ago. (in the tech area, not sure about sales) which was about the time they raised the h1-b visa count to help ease the need for warm bodies in the tech industry.
I suppose you have to define en mass. I know that in 1998 they were hiring a lot of H1-Bs in their Palo Alto campus. There was not the huge push for H1-Bs until 1999 though, because the companies overquoted the job demands so INS would allow more H1-B visas to be issued.
The INS is so fucked up anyway, they are on par with the USPTO.
Dude. Chill. Remember that while reading TFM is an excellent map from {Linux commands} to {what they do}, there is not a simple inverse map from {what you want to do} to {Linux command}. apropos and Google are decent steps, but they don't always give you the answer even if you know how to search.
Ok, asking for a hosting providor that costs less than $100 when I post a comment that says, "There are plenty of hosting sites that offer dedicated servers for around $100" is the line that I will not respond.
It is much easier just to ask someone who knows what they're doing and can answer in 5 minutes than to spend hours googling and crawling the man pages. I have several friends who have been using Linux for a year or so, and when we can't figure something out, we IM / write each other and ask, and it's better that way.
There is a difference between IM'ing a friend and emailing someone you don't know. Finding out a simple solution in google takes them less time.
If you have a fish that you're not going to eat, why not give it to a man?
Because it promotes laziness, however, I will gladly trade it for services. I do not give things away, I make people work for them. Very few things in life were given to me, and I had to work for everything I have. I'm not saying it's the way I'll raise my kids, but I'm not going to help someone out just because they need a fish. They're going to work for it, then they get a fish.
Probably the most irritating phrase I see as an open source software person is "thanking you in advance for your prompt reply!!" That just makes me want to not respond to your email right away. I am a coordinator for a fairly large and active project. I can't always get to your email right away all the time.
If anybody emails me with a stupid question, regardless of how nice it is, will not get a response. I get this shit all the time, usually from dimwits on here. They read a comment, then email me asking for more information that a simple google search will reveal for them.
Feed a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you give up your monopoly on fisheries. Ignore the idiot who can't figure out how to fish on his own, when there are free books on the subject everywhere around him, and he ceases to be your problem.
Do corporate taxes account for more? While it might not still be the case, I remember seeing an article about how companies like Sun, Cisco and Microsoft used tax loopholes to pay -zero- federal taxes. You're also assuming that there are no additional costs associated with outsourcing jobs. This, especially in technical fields, is definitely not the case.
:)
That is largely FUD, and wrong. They do pay a significant amount in taxes. There are additional costs with outsourcing. Such as buying the computers (which will most likely come from US vendors), software (which will most likely come from US Vendors), equipment (which will most likely come from US Vendors).
I've worked as the American liason to an outsourced development team. We had all sorts of issues like the time difference between the US and India, underqualified developers, limited english skills (part of maintainable code is comments...most of my development time was spent re-writing comments). We probably saved approximately %20 over what we would have spent hiring Americans to do the same job and it was, on the whole, a lot messier process to deal with (more unpredictable...a bad thing in business).
I do this all the time, and just finished acting as a security sounding board for a pretty large project that is being outsourced to an Indian firm. They do save money, quite a bit of it. It all depends upon who you hire, and how much you pay. There are some amazingly good firms based out of India. There are also some shitty ones. I've worked in a place where their was an entire perl script consisting of about 2K lines that had 4 comments in it, "This part is documented in the horse book on page XXX." American coder, guy was a joke. I've met tons of idiotic programmers, and most of them haven't been Indian (I can only think of 2, actually.)
Think about it...if hiring a coder abroad didn't have all sorts of hidden costs associated with it, why would Sun even deal with hiring H1-Bs that they have to pay %60-%70 of what they'd pay an American if they could get the same thing for $6/hr?
I'm confused where this turned into competition of H1-Bs and Outsourcing. Some projects, such as isolated projects, are fine for outsourcing. Things like kernel additions, or things that require working with a team of experienced people should be kept local.
Choose the best tool for a job, whether it's outsourcing or local employees. If the best tool for a job happens to ask for $80K and the second best tool happens to ask for $50K and there isn't much difference in their skills, pick the $50Ker and give yourself a nice bonus
I have a feeling we feel pretty similar here, there's just a few sticking points. We both see that a lot of the anti-foreigner rhetoric is being spouted by people who are unemployed and scared about what the future might hold for them. But I think my point boils down to the fact that it is better for the country as a whole for the government to make every effort to keep jobs in this country.
I really hate the anti-foreigner speech that goes on. If anybody is scared what the future holds for them, I would suggest that person stop being a whiney bitch and start improving themselves. There is that Sean Connery line, "Losers always whine about their best, while winners go home and fuck the prom queen."
Sean Connery can answer all of lifes greatest questions.
As for the government protecting US jobs, I believe in part you are correct. H1-Bs do get abused all the time, and that is messed up. Suing a company for using the best tool for the job is just dumb. Bitching about a company using the best tool for the job is just dumb. Bitching at the government for issuing too many H1-Bs is not dumb. Saying that foreigners are destroying the economy is dumb, and all those people need to remember that at one time, they were foreigners too. I'm a pretty recent addition to America, and still have a lot of memories of hearing stories a
I am on a H1-B. I get paid $100K a year. I worked my fucking tail off to be where I am today. The reason there are h1-bs are because this is a free-market. The companies ultimate goal is to make money. That is the raison' de etre of all corporations. H1-bs are not cheap labor stealing your job. They are competitors in a free job market. They don't even get unemployment benefits though they pay social security. But their payscales are on par.
I am from India. And I know what poor is ! so don't give me that shit.
Please, everybody read this. It's a shame it came from an AC, but this is the best argument I can see supporting H1-Bs.
Got any cool and unusual stuff on your site?
Where I am working now, security from an internal point of view is non-existent. The only place that I've worked that has good security, I'm not really allowed to talk about because of all those pesky NDA type things. *shrug*
See, here's where I think you're a bit off. The government's job is not just to protect corporations and their profits. That may seem like what they're doing now, but it's not what they're supposed to be doing. A while back (around the time of the Civil War), one of our presidents put it better than I can hope to do here, "...Government of the people, by the people and for the people..."
It's up to the people to take responsibility for their own lives. For a society that prides itself on free trade and competition, and anti-monopolistic environments, the natives tend to want a monopoly on the jobs and not let the outsiders.
It should do this if only to maintain the tax revenue generated by a working public. A skilled worker at Sun making $80k/year will pay about $15k per year in federal taxes and about $5k in state taxes. That same job filled by a skilled Indian worker generates nothing for the government. When you add in unemployment compensation and everything else that goes along with shipping jobs overseas, I think we all have a right to cry foul to our government when we see them making policies that do not discourage companies from laying off American workers.
But corporate taxes ammount to much more than individual taxes. If you take the $30K a year, per employee, that the corporation is saving and it turns into profit or a higher revenue stream than taxes increase. That and there are more sales because they hire on more staff at a lower rate. Corporate taxes increase, individual taxes decrease.
Basically, were I to be unemployed (I'm not, lest you think by the argument that I'm making that I am),
Your arguments are much too well thought out for you to be unemployed, or in danger of being that way. Most of the opposing side who are unemployed, or in danger of, respond with knee-jerk, FUD-filled comments.
I would have no right to complain to the government about my personal situation. That is my own responsibility. But I have every right to complain about the broader situation that we as a country are facing. Our government should represent us first, not our employers.
My issue is that there has always been millions of lay offs. As society evolves, the layoffs happen in different sectors, and there is still an economical gain. It's important to not lose the focus of the forest, by only looking at a specific type of tree.
This is all slightly moot as the fact that your network card did not have a recognised MAC address for that network cable would have alerted security about .2 seconds after your machine passed POST.
:-)
;)
This is actually what I was looking for as an answer
I could go on but I might have to shoot you.
Oh damn, not again...
But if someone else can do an adequate job for less, and they don't have the same costs placed on me by my country, then damn skippy I'm going to be upset.
Make sure that you don't blame yourself first. Because you know, there is that big gun pointed at your head that is telling you that you can't voluntarily lower your salary to match and stay employed.
Heaven forbid you actually be accountable for your own life.
dont bother arguing with X, he is a hopeless globablist. and he seems to think americans suck at their jobs. or that for some reason some MCSE bootcamp graduate over in india always does it better.....
Did you miss the part where I said that I'm an American? I don't think all Americans suck at their jobs, just a lot of them. And they suck in comparison to what can be accomplished for less money by other people. Not my fault the rest of you are racist.
what is rather amusing is that Sun started doing this three years ago -and i do outsourcing work for them - and now they are losing money hand over fist because of bad management and lack of technical skill, management sent the jobs to india and the india techs suck.
News flash for you; Sun started hiring H1-B workers many more years ago than 3. This is about hiring H1-B workers, not outsourcing. Americans are bitching because H1-B workers are coming in and working for less money, without realizing that they can price match and work for a competitive rate. This goes into my loathing for American lack of accountability. Why Americans sue because they're fat and didn't realize McDonalds wasn't helping that. 11% of Americans between 18-24 can't locate America on a map. 87% couldn't find Iraq. You expect me to think the majority of Americans aren't idiots? It's never their fault, it's the man. It's the H1-Bs. It's the overseas workers. Whatever. It's the lack of personal accountability that causes Americans to be where they are at, and I have no sympathy.
People do not have a right to two cars, a huge house, overseas vacations, etc. They do however have a right to a government that looks out for the well-being of their own nation, their own people.
.com era, and will continue to happen. You are entitled no job, if someone else can do it cheaper and better than you. If you cry to your government about it, it means that you are a complete fuckwad who has no sense of personal responsibility.
No, but people have the right to be able to get two cars, a huge house, overaseas vacations. Regardless of where they are from, everybody has the right to work towards that. Every year, an average 3.3 million people are laid off in America. This happened before the
It isn't about making a profit at all costs for these companies. It's about ensuring the well-being of ALL people, both here and elsewhere. If these people were to get paid comparatively, then their standard of living would go up, but instead you insist on bringing MY standard of living down.
There is a reason why people get chosen to be laid off. You insist on bringing your standard of living down. You are responsible, and accountable. If these people were paid comparatively, you would still get laid off because they would probably still do it better. Your standard of living is a direct result of your capabilities, in the environment you are in. You are not entitled to a high paying job purely because you have experience in that field; if you suck, oh well, the unemployement line is over there.
In this case please take out your adimin and shoot him as he is too stupid to live.
I'm just saying, in general. For my home machines, I don't bother with this. If someone breaks into my home, I doubt they care about any software based security, as they can just take the hardware. Depending upon the security necessary in your environment, it changes what you do.
Our machines here (high-sec enviroment) boot from network and my extremely locked down server checksums the bootblock (checksum and boot block are on non writable, non-removable media). Yes, we're paranoid.
What about someone bringing in a laptop and connecting it to the network? I've seen fairly high security environments that never took that into account.
At least in Debian, even with "linux single" you have to type the root password to get root. And any installation with the least pretense of security has always disabled user parameters for LILO, of course. Just like it had to disable e.g. booting from a disk.
I know the Red Hat series it still works... I haven't tried it for years. The distribution installation can't change the BIOS boot order though. If a CD/Floppy drive is accessible, it's up to the user to change the BIOS boot order, not the distribution.
Yay for knoppix CDs!
no, the definition is correct, see american heritage dictionary and websters. i mean GNP like as in the TOTAL gross product of this country, not GDP as in the gross NATIONAL/LOCAL production of this country.
:)
GNP is the total gross product of a nation, including workers abroad.
GDP is the total gross product of a nation, only counting those that are inside of the borders.
hell why dont you go back and read the damn article it says the same damn thing i am saying.
The article is pure FUD. It's meant to generate click-throughs by reinstating the same recycled arguments against the push for overseas outsourced manufacturing plants. It worked, it got all you people rabid about anybody who says that this is a good thing that it's happening.
Newsflash: It was good when it happened to manufacturing. It is good that it's happening to IT.
Just because you don't like it, and don't want yourself or your friends to be unemployed, doesn't mean it isn't true.
and again i have seen the world, its a nice place. but i live HERE so i am concerned with HERE. just like i will be concerned with europe when i move this summer.
Enjoy the relocation, too hot for me outside of London which is too crowded for me, or Dublin which rains too much. Hope it goes well for you.
I mean this sincere, just because I think your opinions on this matter are idiotic, I don't hold anything against you. Just your opinions
Again, you do nothing but completely dodge the issue at hand. You are incapable of forming a coherent argument in any manner. You have not once addressed the simple fact that I can not legally work in this country for $4 an hour. Because of minimun wage laws non existant in other countries, I am by law unable to compete. You refuse to address this issue because you think anything that anything that is unfair to Americans is good for everyone else. You have not given any credibility to a single argument. You simply make unsubstantiated remarks, and when called on that you respond only with more unsubstatiated remarks.
Why can you not work in those countries? It is not impossible to get a work visa. If you have applicable work experience, you should be able to secure a visa just fine. In fact, you could probably talk to the outsourcing vendor about going in as management because you have domestic experience. You raise issues that are fundamentally not my problem. The individuals that are losing out to the competition are sacrifices that are made for a global economy. This is what you are failing, consistently, to understand.
That's funny, because the DMCA has yet to be used successfully in terms of prosection. Each time it has actually been brought into court, the plaintiff has withdrawn charges, or lost. A law isn't unconstitutional until the supreme court deems it to be so. It has so far only been abused as a threat, and these "Small time" threats against these people "Who can do nothing about it" has prompted legislation to explicitly protect the rights of these people as well as legislation to ammend the supposed unconstitutional portions of the otherwise completley constitutional DMCA.
Right, I guess you can tell the EFF to stop worrying about it then. They'll probably really appreciate your input on how it is only used for "small time threats."
Thank you for again proving to the world that you are a complete and total idiot. Scaled localized pricing? I guess this just exists because of the natural order of the economy and not based on factors of import taxation, localized affordability based on labor laws or lack thereof, levels of taxation by municipality, providence or state, inflation, deflation, developmental status, healthcare state, welfare, or any other localized factors relevant to fair economic trade on a global scale. Each of your blanket assertations takes in no account for any of the obvious relevant factors. You make an inane comment, and hold it as a rule of economy.
Considering that manufacturing has already accomplished all of this in a variety of countries, I stand to be correct in all of this. All those things made in China, Taiwan, etc. and exported out are still cheaper. You can also buy most of those things in those countries for relatively cheap. For instance, in Spain (this is a somewhat poor example, but is drastic and true), specifically Toledo, they have a sword manufacturing plant (The Factory) where you can buy the swords made for roughly the equivalent of about $80. In the US, the same sword will cost at least three times as much. This is mass produced, and the Spaniards get much money for it. You are attempting to add complex variables into a simple system, and prove you are right. This doesn't work.
You are attempting to take extreme examples, which are completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Why would there be a plethora of extra taxes on something manufactured in that country? Because a lot of industries don't have to pay extra taxes to sell to the locals, it ends up being remarkably cheaper. Take silk suits, buy one in Thailand that is custom tailored for $500. Buy the same suit pre-tailoring, mass produced in Thailand, but in the US and it becomes more expensive.
I'm just failing to understand how any of this is relevant to how outsourcing technical support and development to countries.
I have already proven you wrong and absurd. You constantly take single case sc
Does that mean you have to be at the keyboard, or does that mean you have to have access to the box itself? (a shutdown/restart exploit?)
This means that you have to already have an existing user account on the system, running in user space. You cannot exploit the box without having (control of) a user account.
If you are at the keyboard, you can usually get root instantly on Linux. "lilo: linux single"
this is the last response i am going to bother firing back to you. cause i am sick and tired of YOUR backassward logic.
This is really funny. You don't have any clue about economics, yet you try to find fault in my logic.
and actually its not hb-1 or h1-b its H-1B, so if you are going to try and correct me PLEASE do some friggin research first. its funny you think i dont know about something cause i mis-typed a name.
Uhm, mis-type is once. Not 5 times, dipshit. You are right, it's H-1B. Or H1B, as it is often cited in INS works. I know more about F and M visas though.
GNP = The total market value of all the goods and services produced by a nation during a specified period.
GDP = GDP The total market value of all the goods and services produced within the borders of a nation during a specified period.
You do realize this is wrong, right? GNP is produced by the nationals of that country, and that is what I intended when I used it. Everybody in the US. The way you are using GNP, you mean GDP. Which is what is produced inside the borders, regardless of what passport they hold.
For more information, read here
AFRICA ? why don't you move your wannabe saint ass to africa and drop me a line in a few years. because quite frankly you seem to know so much maybe you could help with the education program over there.
Spent time in Africa. I don't want to go back. Unlike you, I've actually seen the world. So take your stupid little ignorant views and shove them up your ass. You are crying like a little boy who doesn't want to share his toys.
I think you mean Seattle Wireless (.net). seattlewireless.org doesn't resolve for me.
and I was utterly disappointed to read, "This transfers at a rate of 11mbps, that's roughly equivalent to 10 minutes of digital music or 500 single page word documents every second."
.WAV or other lossless format, 11mbits a second transfers what... a minute, if that a second? Nevermind the lack of understanding of big-B vs. little-B.
I really wish people would stop using this "roughly equivalent" analogy. What type of digital music are we talking? It doesn't answer anything really. If we're talking about a
This is off-topic, just something I read and wanted to bitch about.
Whoever modded this troll is a jingoistic zealot.
Did you know if you search google for jingoistic that the first link is to the dictionary definition of it. That cracks me up.
Again you miss the point that tech support is NOT high wage. Tech Support is the lowest rung on the IT ladder. Aside from that, while this article may focus on "high tech" jobs, this article was not the be all and end all of outsourced work in the US. I guess if it's not posted on slashdot, it's none of your concern, right?
Localize it. Put it in the Philipines or in India, where tech support is high wage. Ok?
And did you read the articles? The CNN article says, "A variety of industries," yet only mentions IT, specifically IT service industry. The Salon article states, "Take this tech job and shove it."
I guess you don't understand the difference between average income and single case income. $3200 is not much more than $2500. You seem to really enjoy focusing on the low cost of living for the incredibly small precentage making a "decent money" while completely ignoring the low standard and high cost of living for everyone else. As I said, I know of at least three icredibly competent system developers who made $200 or less a month. Do you think an entry level Dell support technician is going to make even close to that?
$600 * 12 = $7200 a year. That is much different than $2500 a year. You know, by a factor of 3. You may know 3, but I know many more than that who would laugh at them. And yes, an entry level support tech will make more than that. I know first hand how much they pay to outsource to various companies. For instance, one major tech support outsourcing company pays $4+ an hour for tech support in Manila. Depending upon the account, it goes up, but I've yet to hear someone making less than $4 an hour.
Each of these techs must have computers. They hire 3x as many techs, they sell 3x as many computers, licenses, phone systems. See how that works? Everybody sells more.
Comments about sweatshops are far from irrelevant. What makes you think that tech support absolutely and positively will not be done in sweatshops? You've done nothing but dodge the issue, because you don't have an answer. Human rights elements are critical in any discussion of global economics, the fact that you consistantly ignore them doesn't mean they become any less of a factor.
Ok, how are people in sweatshops going to learn English? How are they going to sound helpful and cheerful, which is penultimate in doing tech support. CNN has also said that 71% of companies polled show that overseas workers get better results than domestic workers. I have already answered this; sweatshop workers will deliver lower quality of work.
Your China example is absurd, because in order for it to work, China would have to increase their GDP above that of the US. Try another example. Also try to get it through your dumbass brain that I'm not anti-US. I'm anti-I'm-a-little-crying-bitch-American-who-thinks -Americans-deserve-everything. Got it? Yes, this means you.
I just bought a meal from McDonalds and it cost me $5.85. It cost me that much because supposedly that's what it costs for an American company to make money off of that particular product. If I could get my happy meal from Russia for $0.15 I wouldn't need to make much money. If it were possible to get happy meals from russia there would be a $4.70 cent tax placed on it.
And I can eat better than McDonalds on about a dollar a day in Morocco, what's your point? Or I can go to a tourist cafe and pay $5 for kooskoos. Or I can still go to McDonalds, and it's about 1/3 of the cost. In Japan, McDonalds and Starbucks cost more. That's the wonder of scaled and localized pricing! Amazing what these kids will think of next.
You don't have much logic to be flawed, becuase you missed the point of my argument completely, but your argument that the US outsourcing jobs can only be a good thing is also flawed. You proved it best yourself with your case study of outsourced tech support to the Phillipines. We came in, created an artificial market, and pull
you again fail to understand the point or explain how the hell someone who makes 1/3rd what we do can afford what we do.
Because they only pay $50 a month in rent? Or that food is amazingly cheap? Do you really think that all these overseas workers are using an abacus or some shit? Do you understand that for the 3 workers that get hired overseas for each American that gets laid off, that is 3 more computers with Windows or Unix vendor licenses. How do you think they work? I mean... come on, use your head here.
if china has the same GNP has us they STILL wont account for as much "spending" (on luxury items, like computers, cars etc..) because the GNP per person won't be anywhere near as high as it is here. which means less HP and Sun and IBM shit being sold, which means more jobs go BYE BYE.
Well, you have just proven you don't know anything about economics. We now use GDP, not GNP. You are not qualified to argue about economical issues; just admit that you do not know enough about economics to continue to argue.
and your goddamn right i think HB-1 is bullshit, but i shouldnt have said the people using it are jackasses i should have said the EMPLOYERS using it are jackasses.
You are an idiot. I've continuously pointed out that it is H1-B and you continuously fail to actually know what it is you loathe so much. It's really funny to see people spew such venom about something and not even call it by the right name. That takes a certain amount of talent, which you have plenty of.
oh and by the way if im racist for disliking people coming here and taking jobs that should be hired for locally YOUR racist for hating america which you obviously do, and no despite what you seem to think im not a flag waving asshole i want out of this country and i am planning on leaving this summer for the simple reason of OUR ECONOMY IS GOING TO SHIT !
No, I don't hate America. I don't hate Americans. What I do hate are backwards ass, idiotic Americans who think that their country is the best country in the world and the only place where things are "real." Like yourself. For the record, I was born in the US. I hold a US passport. I don't want to live in anywhere but the US because it has the best quality of life. Does it mean I like everything here? Fuck no. And considering I think that a good percentage, in the range of 20-30%, of the population should be forced to go spend some time in Africa to open their eyes a little bit. This includes you. You don't even have one little clue about the world, outside of your little, tiny, country.
what job gets over 500 applicants ? how about anything in NYC, Silicon valley and around seattle. you think i am joking ? pick a decent job out in SF, or NYC from monster, and call up the person taking applications, ask them how many applications they have gotten for the job. I have a friend who is a head hunter in NY the amount of offers is sick. hundreds of thousands of people have lost their jobs since january 1st. and lets not forget the job market wasnt exactly great last year.
Ok, on average, every year, not just in the last couple years there is a total of 3.3 million people laid off. Suddenly because it happens in your industry it's a tragedy. News for you; The world keeps turning, in case you failed to notice it. You seem to want me to explain to the nimrods who can't get jobs how they should live, but that isn't my responsibility. My responsibility is to do what I am expected, and get paid for it. Last I checked, on my list of expected things to do, taking care of inadequate Americans wasn't on it. I'll double check it though, just for you.
The last thing I need is to not be able to find the DeCSS haiku because your government doesn't like it.:)
Ah, you are Canadian judging by your email address. You may not have an army, but at least you can view the DeCSS haiku and easily smack a french person.
This is more of my point, Google isn't a public tool any more than any other internet site is. Especially not one that is more in debt to the US than to China. Yes, they are located in the US, but no, they don't need to cater to the whims of idealistic Americans at the sacrifice of getting blocked by the Chinese government.
I keep using China for this thread... I should switch to Australia or something. Nothing quite gets the point across as the Great Firewall though.