Might not shoot him, but I get a little ticked that he's making his own omissions in transit.
Example:
Chinese government says "No XYZ can be displayed." Google says, "Ok." Chinese person searches for XYZ, Google says, "I have no results to display from you."
They are not Google's omissions. Do you think Google wants to omit results? No! But they do want to reach the highest number of people, and deal with it. You should instead compliment their efforts of a good piece of design, instead of chastizing Google because they're doing what they are required to do to maintain an international corporation.
I think this story is a bit overblown. It appears that most/.'s don't like microsoft and thats sad because microsoft is the driving company behind many many jobs.
Uhm, you do realize that this is Slashdot, right? Of course you do... you cite/. right there. I'm confused here. I feel like someone just told me the sky is blue.
You are right though, Microsoft products can be secure. Just like Linux products can be insecure. The difference is in the default.
here you go again, making assanine assumptions. i am not racist, i am however pro-american and because i live here, and i do not want the quality of life here to go down. you seem to think that working hard will find you a job, bullshit. right now people in the tech sector get anywhere from 50 - 50,000 applications per job opening, do the math. some people are fools they think they are entitled to a BMW and a condo on the beach, screw them. im talking about average joe with 2.2 kids and a mortgage. those are the people i worry about. You said, and I quote "jackass with HB-1[sic]", which directly states you think that H1B workers are jackasses. This is racism. You obviously, and state this several times, have something against foreign workers. You are pro-American, which means anti-Non-American. This is racism.
Your stats are full of shit, too. Show me one job where they get more than 500 qualified applications and I'll start to think you can actually reason.
and i do not care if people (black, white, brown, or yellow) immagrate to the US. because that will help us. i WANT them to move here. not train here and go back to india. that HURTS the US.
What about employing them in India? This is what this is about, in case you forgot to read the article and understand what the hell this conversation is about.
and im going to say this one last time and take the chance that this might permiate your thick ass skull..... A: sending jobs overseas by reducing local employment reduces a companies market B: thereby reducing their profits. C: thereby reducing there workforce. D: GOTO A.
A: reduces a companies local market, increasing their global market. B: an increased global market will increase profits. C: an increased overseas, international workforce is created. D: the average GNP in selected countries increases drastically, and the quality of life improves.
The people that are laid off to make way for more people being more comfortable in life is a casuality of economics. You do not understand economics, and it is painfully clear in your reasons.
Let me break it down to you how it works now: Company XYZ lays off 500 workers to make way for a consulting team from India that consists of 1500 workers. They pay the same amount over the year, and open 3 new projects that get completed. They now have 3 new projects in addition to their own, and hardware vendors have sold 1500 systems to 1500 Indians instead of 500 systems to 500 domestic workers.
Is this really that hard to understand? Are you honestly so blindly pro-American that you cannot see that more goods are sold if you hire people overseas?
oh and BTW people who have worked for the large majority of their life to get into a good position in the IT industry cannot afford to start over, and they shouldnt have to. somebody who is 35 years old and has a masters and two kids and a wife et all shouldnt be forced out of the industry. period. Well, if they can't get a job they should do something to support their family. Go flip burgers, I don't care. With a masters and 10 years of experience, you should be able to get a job. If you can't, you obviously haven't networked enough or have some deep issues with yourself that cause you to be a poor candidate for a job selection. Again, not my problem, it's theirs.
Google's role in society is no longer one of profit, it has become the navigator for millions of people to access free information. With great power comes great responsiblity.
This is fundamentally wrong. If it is a public tool, it should be paid for by tax dollars and be institutionalized by the government.
Google is a company, and that is black and white. Regardless of ideological ideas of what a public tool should or should not do, it is there business what they do. People are not obligated to use Google, and Google is not obligated in any way to humor certain peoples thoughts on what is moral and just.
Therefore, as human beings, those who run google have moral and ethical obligations to protect the free flow of information.
At the sacrifice of their business? At which point does this free flow of information end? If someone posts a video of you doing something embarassing, is it your right to censor or attempt to? There is no moral obligation for any company to anybody outside of that company.
It may be legal for them to censor, but it is wrong as it damages the exchange of ideas which promote thought and freedom.
Take issue with the governments that require censorship, not with a tool that tries to reach as many people as possible. It's better that Google is available in China, even if it is censored, than if they don't have access to google at all.
You are fighting the wrong people here. You are shooting the messenger.
And furthermore, it seems that family always thinks that any computer related problem can be solved over the phone in a matter of minutes. "Hey, just call $YourName! He'll know what to do."
Granted, some problems can be solved per voice ("click the Start-button in the leftmost corner of your screen, choose Find, and Files and Folders. Type the name of the file you're looking for"), but the vast majority of the problems requires you to actually sit down at the computer.
My solution: Buy each family member that does this one computer book for every holiday until they stop. Ensure they are proper for the type of questions they ask. If they continuously ask stupid/newbie questions, go for the * for idiots books. If they ask questions about a certain app or what not, buy them books on that app until they stop asking you.
Now when the hell did i say i went to school ? what debt ? i have zero debt, and do not have a degree. its because I know my shit I have a job. I'm assuming you are talking about my comments about quitting and selling real estate. Those were meant as general comments, not specifically to you. If you have to ask, then you are. If you aren't asking or can find a job, then I don't mean you as in you, but you as in the mass of people that aren't you.
you asked WHY american companies should hire american employees, simple dickwad WE ARE THE ONES WHO BUY THEIR PRODUCT ! not some indian or malasian making 4/hr, they can't afford what american companies charge.... which leads into the next nice little tidbit - if all the americans become unemployed who the hell is buying the procuct ? people over in india are not buying stuff like americans do, and they wont for the next 20 years, in the meantime ? im supposed to watch these bloated "world thinkers" shit the economy away ? get a grip ! screw 20 years from now, what about now ? what if 60 million americans end up un-employed because of this crap ? then what ? feel chipper because the guy in india drives a toyota ? FSCK THAT !
Right, so because Indians can't buy the products, American companies are supposed to make sure they can never buy the products? Is that what you are saying? It's what it sounds like. You are forgetting that for every one American that loses their job by it being out-sourced, 3 or more non-Americans can start improving their quality of life.
It's sad because you place more value on American lives than those of non-Americans.
i hate it when you bleeding hearts think we need to give everything away because you feel guilty or some crap. i like my loft, i like my job, i like my car. do i need all of it ? no, but why do i need to sacrifice for someone in india ? you feel so great for this cause then you do me a favor, "sacrifice" for both of us.
You don't need to give it away. This is what I'm saying. People are not obligated to work in a job sector that is being outsourced. People are not obligated to hire American workers over outsourcing overseas. People are not obligated to make sacrifices, and I'm not making any myself. You think that I have some sort of increased sympathy for the people outside of America, but this is wrong. I don't care about those people any more than I care about an American. What I do care about is increasing the capitalization of the world, the GNP of the world, the consumers of the world and increasing the quality of life for everybody. Why? Because in much less than 20 years, I can capitalize on those people and improve my own life.
and about your holier than thou cruft at the end of your post.... i chose this industry because i love computers, not the paycheck - and you are not the only person who has had to take a paycut in the past few years. but thats not the end of the world. being unemployed for 5 years or longer is. and i have seen it first hand. its not a pretty picture. i understand economics i understand that quite a few people i know who are damn good at what they do can't get a job because some jackass came over on an HB-1 to train for 1/5th what they CAN take.
If someone is unemployed for 5 years, they should definitely find another career. There is something wrong with them. Period. My holier-than-though stance is purely this: If you can't find a job in sector A, look in sector B. Repeat until Z, at which point, shoot yourself. I'm not so arrogant as to not do it myself, had I difficulty finding a job.
You are also amazingly racist, "some jackass came over on an HB-1[sic] to train for 1/5th what they CAN take." I'll apologize for them here, they're sorry they want to improve their life and work really hard to do it. They're sorry that your friends have to be unemployed for them to do it, but they're fighting for their way through life.
No we're not talking about high-wage work. We're talking about all types of work from all sectors of industry. Again you show that you do not possess any sort of critical thinking capacity. The high wage work is the project manager (me) and the low wage work is the peon visual basic programmer or the entry level tech support (you).
No, we're actually talking about tech support being outsourced. Apparently you didn't read the article. It isn't my fault. Besides, I seriously doubt you are in a high wage position because to get there you have to have a wee little bit of reasoning skills. You have demonstrated a clear lack of such skills, with your off-based slurs and lack of global economics. And you don't know me, so don't presume to think I'm a low wage tech worker. I'd be willing to wager that I make quite a bit more than you, but it doesn't matter. Not to me; money is only something to buy things I want. My happiness comes from the life I make, not with how much I make. This is why I support outsourcing tech support and development to other countries to present better lifestyles for those people. So they have the opportunity to live a life without worrying about food.
$600 * 12 is a whole lot more than $2500 you quoted, again, try to get some math. Just to quote the first person, from China. Spending $300 a month on rent, in a luxury apartment tends to make $600 last a lot longer.
This is exactly what I mean when I say you are stupid. You can't even understand a signle, simple point. You are so ignorantly and incorrectly bent on this idea that I want to protect jobs from "them damn foreigners" you can't or won't actually understand what you read. My argument the whole time was not that I was against globalization. You are too stupid to see that. I was arguing that this is double standard globalization, the corporations are protected, but the people are not. If you're going to open up jobs to other countries without penalty, you need to open up trade with other countries without penalty. If you're going to tax imported goods, you need to tax exported jobs. You still haven't addressed that simple issue. So in your next psychotic rant, I'd like you to justify to me how this is globalization. Try focusing on what I say, and not the twisted, delusional ideas resulting from an obviously fucked up thought process.
So it's my fault that you respond with irrelevant quotes about sweat shops and I tell you that you are an idiot for bringing it up? Riight. So, let me try to analyze what your point is. I think that outsourcing tech work is good for the world, and you disagree. So, now lets discuss this then. Why is it bad? What is the problem with increasing the pay of a set of individuals in a country, to increase their GNP and therefor increase the purchasing power of those people?
Tell me where my logic is flawed here, because I would love to hear it.
No.. fuck you. Fuck your God who or whatever it may be, don't place your religious conventions on me. I don't have any CD's you stupid, inane fuck. That didn't make a bit of sense. If you're saying fuck Americas CD's then that funny that you're a hypocrite. "Fuck your products/services! I'm glad that they make the world a better place!". What kind of ridiuclous crap is that? I guess they don't sell the proper type of psychiatric medication where you're from. You don't give a fuck about making the world a better place, nor do you have the intelligence to contribute to that cause. Go back and hide in your little MSNBC world where sweathsops are memories and Ugandans aren't as capable other nationalities. You know nothing of the world, nothing of the united states, and nothing in general.
Wow, when did I bring religious into this? This really is funny. Are you so desperate to prove your worth that you have to bring in things I never even implied and claim I said them? Does it hurt to be this mentally inadequate? I was also saying, with CDs, is to fuck the RIAA -- one of the majo
No problems with this but I think we need to look into foriegn outsourcing and H1B programs for lawyers, managers, accountants, marketing, and sales.
Accountants I'm actually surprised haven't been outsourced. I think a big part of it is people are less likely to trust someone they can't see regularly with access to their bank accounts.
Lawyers can't happen, because how do they go to trial? Other (non-court) lawyers could, but I think it ties into above.
Sales & Marketing, I agree with. I'm actually brewing up a venture to try to get this to start up. I believe that I can make a market selling to every country that has a) people, b) money, c) desire to economically expand. Which is quite a few countries; including all the countries that these jobs are being exported.
Where am I supposed to go? I'm and American citizen because I had the mixed fortune to be born in the US. It's the only place I'm entitled to live. So now I'm stuck going back to a country where the corporation is king, and who cares if half the people are unemployed, as long as the corporate masters are making their big bucks exploiting third world countries? Great. Okay, I'm not obligated to live in the U.S. Suicide is always an option...
Go to Mexico. Go to Canada. You are not my problem. For how well trained all these people are who fear their jobs, they have a surprisingly huge lack of skill at solving problems in their own lives.
Dick. There's nothing wrong with trying to protect your wages. If people don't stand up to vested interests you get situations like the begininning of industrial age with 12 yr old kids being worked to death for starvation wages. Or serfdom. It's economics... man you're a bozo.
No, and you are supposed to care about your wages. But, the fact remains, economics dictates that the lower-class will rise to meet the middle class of what was, and the middle class will either find a new source to capitalize from the new-coming into middle class or go into lower-class. I'm not sure how I don't understand economics, when all of this is basic economics and has already happened with manufacturing in the US and... gasp... everybody survived and no one is serfs.
It's really funny how closely this resembles the remarks of the manfuacturing exports though.
And pay the mortgage and support the kids how? Stupid libertarian bachelors.
I don't know, sell realty. Not my problem. I'm not a bachelor, or libertarian. But thank you for your wonderful, well thought out insults, attempting to make other peoples problems my own.
See, instead of bitching about how great America was, I make my own way through life. It's called "Personal Accountability", I recomment you try it sometime.
Thank you. To all you out of the US Moderation hounds. It's folks like this, who have no clue about how economies actually work that can spew this sort of tripe ( You DO know that the real scenario is that you're immediately obsolete the moment you're BORN, dont' you ? ).
Uhm, computers are obsolete as soon as they are made. People increase in value. Most people, some people stagnate and become a burden on society. Go study Nash's Equilibrium a little bit, and tell me how economics work.
Hint: they are NOT as good as me. I've worked in more than one company bringing over H1B's. They may have a hard work ethic ( the one point I'll concede to you on...), but I would be hard pressed to say that their cookie-cutter mentality will produce better software.
They may not be as good as you, but they are better than a lot of other people. I have worked with plenty of H1Bs and am constantly amazed with certain talents some of them have. I've worked with one for the last year and a half who is phenominal, and has more Swing/Java experience than anybody I've met since Java was created.
And....coming from someone says on his website(and I quote) "If I had my way, every person on the damned internet would be communicating through telnet sessions", I think I'd be safe in saying that your degree isn't in economics. So, quit YOUR bitching...this is the USA. I may fight for your right to spew such utter junk. But by the same right, I'll tell you to shut up, sit down, and enjoy your venti latte, while someone else has their turn on the soapbox to voice their rant.
Yes, if I had my way it would be like that. If I had my way, people would lose their right to drive the moment they cruise in the left lane instead of moving over. It's called wonderful, pipe dream fantasies that will never come true.
You can tell me to shut up as many times as you want, you wont be the first and it wont be the first time I ignore you.
You are missing the point. There are millions of Americans who have excellent IT related skills. These folks have trained for many years and their work has contributed positively to the bottom lines of the companies they work for. From a global perspective, maybe exporting their jobs is good, but from an American perspective, it's not a good thing.
I'm not missing any point, I just see the big picture. You just don't like me because I see things from a global perspective instead of an American perspective. Sorry that I care about 3x more non-Americans than Americans. I apologize for my callous, insensitive stance. Really.
With the way the global economy is moving, eventually all labor will be moved to countries that have the least amount of labor protection laws. Certainly, given 100 years or so those governments will change enough that nobody will have a competitive advantage, but as it stands average Americans are having to degrade their lives because the Multi-national corps want to add a few points to their profit margin.
This is wrong. And, ironically, the same thing that people said a hundred years ago. You realize that this happens all the time. Why do you think that cars went to Japan? Trinkets and electronics went to China? It's because it is the way that the world markets currently work.
Obviously China or India will rise to be the next world power, but Americans don't want to be shunted off to the side, destitute, getting by on Mac'n'Cheese and Top Ramen.
Then innovate to stay on top with the next biggest inventions, instead of growing complacent with complaining about how great your country once was.
For a UNIX geek, you sound suspiciously like an overpaid CEO, CFO, or other such low life. I look forward to when these jobs are exported as well. Nobody is worth millions of dollars a year, regardless of what they do.
I'm a low life because I actually understand economics? Go watch A Beautiful Mind a few times, and study the part where Nash discovers his equilibrium.
There are plenty of people in Afganistan; I'm sure many are qualified to do your job at a mere fraction of what you're being paid. What, you were laid off?!
In one sentence you call me and overpaid C*O, then you ask if I was laid off? I see you added me to your foes list, which I could care less about. I only care about discussing things with people who are able to reason, so it suits me fine. But, did you put any thought into this comment? Did you just see, "He's saying that Americans jobs are better off overseas?" and freak out?
Seriously, put some thought into your life. Understand that there is no quality of life being lost. It's called economics, and it has happened 4 times in the last 100 years.
I'm saying what I'm saying because I know, and study how these systems work. There are good reasons why I'm not unemployed, and you people would do good from actually listening and researching further what I'm saying instead of arguing with over-reactive statements, like this: "Then die or move to Somalia"
You know, there is a big difference between Somalia and India. But, I'm sure you knew that and that is why you posted it... or something.
First off, I never said anything about programmers. All types of jobs are being shipped overseas, try to think outside yourself for a minute. But you are correct, no one pays programmers $1. The average salary of a programmer in China is 20,700 yuan, which is about $2500. That's a whopping $6.85 cents a day, which is %500 above the average household income.
Holy shit, go look at a job site. You are actually more likely to make much, much more. Seriously, go to a google site. I know people from/in China. They are programmers or business man who hire programmers. They all make good money, especially for the cost of living. It would be equivalent to about $55K a year, and a quick job search in a few places will confirm that you are full of shit. Feel free to provide some facts for the bullshit numbers you spew in the future, it actually helps your argument.
Kathie Lee Gifford's line of clothing did phenomenal in terms of a return on investment. It's hard not to make money when your manufacturing costs are nil. I can't speak for the actual quality of the clothing, but the pricing was competitive, and sales did well. That's ok though, because those little kids in the sweatshops weren't obligated to live in a third world nation, and that nation isn't obligated to see to the welfare of it's people. Hey, it's just the globalization of the economy. If your 9 year old can't pull the 12 hour days like little Hsu Chao over there, he should quit and find another profession. He's "obsolete" and "over-capatalized".
Yes, and you know, since we're talking about high-wage work it's completely relevant. Wow, you are so amazingly wrong, and apparently know this, and are attempting to salvage some sort of dignity here by bringing in sad memories of sweat shops and compare those to current development and tech support industries located out of the US? You have just proven yourself inadequate in this discussion past any reasonable doubt I already had.
Let me break it down to you again: You don't like it because you think America is some fantastic land of opportunity that nobody else should share the same quality of life because you feel your own life will be put in jeopardy because of it. You are a selfish fuck. Your comments about the US market being the most lucrative is because of fucks like you, who think that the only country that should have the same lifestyle as you, is the US and all other countries should be made to suffer because of your greed.
It doesn't matter, because the rules of economics are against you. You apparently only got a neat story out of A Beautiful Mind instead of actually understanding Nash's Equilibrium, because that is what this is.
Only you pseudo-patriot racists seem to have an issue with the fact that you can still raise your quality of life because you believe so hard that these outsiders are taking jobs that are rightfully yours.
And please, go show me where in the US Constitution it says that the country is owned by the people. If anything, it's owned by your major companies buying politicians. So fuck you, fuck your CDs, and fuck your puritan attitude. I personally welcome every company that hires people from overseas because it makes the world a better place.
If only you had an idea of the world outside of your own little country, you would be much less of a prick.
First off X your missing the real point of the whole outsourcing thing. americans are losing jobs, here and now. and if we dont have jobs we dont buy products.... this would also be what most people call the "current state of affairs". and another thing, domestic spending accounts for 2/3's of the money involved in our economy. so singapore, japan, india, et all dont total HALF what we do in terms of spending. and i do not see that changing.
So I'm supposed to care that one American can't buy an expensive pair of shoes, but 3 Indians suddenly can? Perhaps you need to gain a more global perspective on the economics you are trying to preach here. If Microsoft can lay off 10,000 employees in the United States, and create 30,000 jobs in India they have just gained 20,000 possible consumers as a net total. This is what will happen, because cost of living there is less than the pay difference as it factors in. You can live comfortably on $300USD in many countries. If three people get paid $7/hour, where the same domestic position is getting paid $25, than you have 2 extra people that will increase their consumer spending. If they are in the IT industry, chances are they will buy more computer products, which will come from American companies. At least for a while, until other countries "catch up" to the U.S.
So tell me how this is bad from a global perspective?
You do realize that at the rate that Chinese is urbanizing it's population that there will be an introduction of almost a billion people into a world market in an estimated 20 years? So tell me why this is bad? Because it threatens your lifestyle? Sounds a bit hypocritical to me. Sounds a bit monopolistic to me.
oh and another thing, the people in india that make 12k/year do not have anywhere near the quality of life we do. and they might not for another 10 - 20 years. (this comes from experience) they are essentially a third world country, bad water supply and famine in some parts of the country among other things. but of course you like so many other people in this damn thread think americans should "lower" our living standard and hence lower our cost of living. right, you move to some third world country.... see if you can dig up some bandwidth so you can post to slashdot, and complain of hunger.
Did I say that they do have the quality of life? I don't think I did, but what I did say is that I support movements that help their quality of life improve. I'm not sure why you think you need to sacrifice your lifestyle in order to allow other countries to increase theirs. If you cannot find an IT job, find a different career. There are plenty of jobs to be had, and maybe you should look at a different profession. Sure, you went to school for it and racked up debts, but it's not as if you are doing anything proactive sitting around bitching about how bad the economy is and how evil the companies are that are outsourcing their work. They do what is cost-effective for them, and it just so happens to really help a lot of other countries; whether 2nd or 3rd world, it doesn't matter.
and no i do not support "fat cat" living. the dot-bomb era was a frigging joke. no web designer should make over 35k. not a single one. but at the same time a guy who is a programmer (a good one.) shouldnt be making 25k when people who rely on his production make 5 - 10 times that. i have no issue outsourcing tech support and other low level jobs. but good jobs should stay here if the company wants to sell here. period.
Why? This is what your side has never given a valid reason, that is economically sound, that is something different than some idealistic, pseudo-loyalist and patriotic bullshit reason.
Would you pay twice as much for a Ford as you do for a Toyota? Yet, you expect companies to do the same. For what? Some sort of idiotic patriotism that you people feel companies are obligated to respond to.
I took a pay cut after the economy pulled it's head out of it's ass, bu
Over the past two decades, most of the jobs sent overseas were in the manufacturing sector. Not anymore. Companies are increasingly hiring cheap foreign labor for engineering and computer jobs. In case you missed the free trade bullshit propaganda: Those were the types of jobs that were supposed to stay in the U.S.
Why in the hell are they "supposed" to stay in the US? Because you all like your little monopoly on IT jobs? What about that Information wants to be Free shit? Open your eyes, and understand that there is no given right for companies to not do it. But to break down how this can be good for you, assuming you aren't too short-sighted to see it.
Raising other countries economies allows for more consumers, innovation, and a general positive boost for the global economy. This also entails a higher quality of life, eventually, in the US. There are more consumers that can afford "luxury" goods that Americans take for granted, thereby turning the US into more of a business man/trade state. Think of Singapore, on a much larger scale.
Think about it! The point of hiring cheap labor is to produce goods at a lower cost. Fine. Who buys these finished goods? There's the problem. Since more Americans are being fired from their jobs, fewer Americans will be buying those Nike shoes. And how many pairs of Nike shoes will be purchased by a Chinese factory worker making a dollar per day?
Considering not many Chinese factory workers make that little, probably a few of them will. If you are talking about Urbanized China (about 2x more people than the US, which don't make that much less than Americans) than you have about twice as many Nike's being sold. But of course you didn't think about that because you are close-minded, elitist, and think that people have an obligation to be xenophobic and only worry about employing good ol' fashioned Americans.
This is the Oh Shit moment. This is the point at which you come to realize that the entire system is flawed. This system is based on the ability of companies to produce goods at a minimum apparent cost without any consideration of how people are going to get the money to buy the finished goods. This is the "Oh Shit moment" for a bunch of self-righteous, contradicting, hypocritical, monopolistic greedy American kids.
You do understand that by outsourcing the jobs, for about 1/3 of what they pay American workers, that you open up a huge consumer market. Lets take India. You pay an average Indian $8-$10/hour (which is the actual rate that they're outsourcing, on average, not this $1 crap that you idiots are propogating) and suddenly they can buy all these goods from American companies. They increase their consumer markets, and increase their tax dollars by becoming larger companies, and you go pump gas. I'll take premium, and don't scratch my Lexus.
No. Here's how it breaks down: They aren't protected by labor laws and work twice as hard for a fraction of a fraction what I HAVE to get paid. We have minimum wage in this country to protect people from working for $1 a day, a majority of the countries being outsourced to don't.
It's hard to even respond to this with some degree of respect, as I think I would be more engaged debating with a tree sloth on the finer points of superstring theory.
Nobody pays programmers $1. You get what you pay for, in case you failed to understand that concept. People aren't going to ship jobs overseas if they get shit back. Garbage in, Garbage out.
It's not like we're outsourcing mundane jobs that don't require intelligence or education. Both are required, and both are met. Your apparent lack of both is probably why you are worried.
No, but I am obligated to pay an import tax on foreign products to protect the same companies that are shipping jobs offshore. If they can ship off jobs so cheap, I should be able to import goods/services just as cheap. Why is it that a coproration should enjoy protection that the people of the nation supporting it don't receive?
Why are you obligated to buy those goods? You know, there is an entire collection of (misguided) people who will only buy American made goods. Why don't you join them, because you lack any insight as to what a global economy is. For more information, why do you think that the US is the only nation that is supporting that company? In case you failed to read from my previous comments, the United States accounts for a ridiculously small amount of "consumers" in the world. You really should travel outside of your precious little country of ideals and irrational behavior. You may learn a little bit more about life, and while you are overseas, take a few economics courses.
That was a pretty stupid statement. Yes, we CAN do something about it. We can elect officials into office who support an export tax on offshore work. and It's not economics, it's politics. Why should they be able to sell my job to foreigners for cheap, when I can't buy their product from foreigners for cheap?
Continuing your trend of paragraphs, the only thing stupid about this is your remarks. You can go ahead an elect officials to make it too expensive for companies to out-source and all you will see is downsizing and bankruptcies. Another thing you fail to understand is the emmense amount of tax dollars brought in by these companies. Tax dollars that keep the country running smoothly, and sadly pay incompetent people like yourself for unemployment insurance. You don't contribute significantly to the tax pool. Your voice doesn't matter. Learn to accept the fact that your little view of the world isn't reality, and try to educate yourself instead of spewing idiotic comments about your (poor) understanding of global economic systems.
The companies that produce more, sell more, and pay more taxes. This benefits everybody, not just you and your fragile little IT-went-bye-bye-because-of-over-paid-college-drop- outs ego.
Again.. stupid. So if Uganda starts instituting slavery, and forcing slaves to do tech support, all paid tech support around the world becomes over-capatalized and obsolete? Find another profession where?
Yes, because I'm sure slaves in Uganda will provide excellent tech support in the necessary major languages of the world. For a realistic example, lets look at Manila in the Philipines. They outsource huge amounts of tech support here, both in the way of email and telephone support. Companies here save huge amounts of money, and the Philipino economy gets a boost, thereby producing more consumers to purchase goods from American companies to setup more call centers. Unfortunately due to the Philipines political issues, this is becoming less ideal for American based companies and it's now moving into other countries.
For the amount of times you said my remarks are stupid, you have failed to understand even basic concepts of economics 10 times over. I hope that your parents paid for your education and it wasn't subsidized by anybody else, because they got ripped off.
If too many US jobs go overseas, something similar might possibly happen. Economics "says" that if too few people can afford to buy your products, you may go out of business. If it happens to too many companies, the "economy" starts going downhill. Eventually, the accumulated capital in the US may be depleted and companies who moved jobs overseas will have no customers.
It's called economics. It isn't a bad thing. It means other countries are developing and competing with the US.
For all this anti-monopoly zeal that Slashdot poses, it all goes away when they realize that the US IT market is like a company with many competitors now. Everyone enjoyed the monopoly while it lasted, and now that the global market is deciding where the competition lies, they start whining about it not being fair.
The countries who moved jobs overseas will have overseas customers. In case you failed to notice, the US constitutes a major minority population of the world. Almost a tenth of the population of China, which is becoming amazingly urbanized at extremely quick rates (Just check the literacy rates of China over the last two decades). 2 Billion new consumers will be reached through India and China, you think the world cares about the few Americans left in the dust?
I'm still not sure why this is news, nor surprising, nor worth getting up in arms about.
Here's how it breaks down: They are just as good as you, and work just as hard, for a fraction of what you want to get paid. You are not obligated to live in the US. Companies are not obligated to hire US based employees.
If you don't like it, well, shut up because you can't change it. It's called economics, and even if you want something else to be true, it isn't going to happen.
Why do people continue to bitch about this? You are over-capitalized, and are obsolete. Find another profession.
I tend to lean toward the assumption that many people like this are hypochondriacs. BUT, I got an entirely new alergy as an adult. Some nuts, most notably hazelnut, just make my mouth numb. I know they didn't do that before because I loved the stuff. The whole numbness thing has made them drop a few rungs on the desireability index. I no longer drink a hazelnut coffee unless I have a big craving. I still eat Nutella, I just make sure it's in the dessert... Still the reaction didn't show up until I was in my early 20's, which helps me believe people that claim to aquire allergies.
I hear that a lot with nuts, it's weird. I know quite a few people who suddenly develop allergies to nuts. My formaldehyde allergy has gotten better, but it still will give me a migraine and I start throwing up in about 30 minutes (Before it was about 2 minutes, along with fever, and all sorts of other badness.)
Abundance chemicals in the air should effect any person long before they're old for their mind to start fucking with them...
The fact that the guy is leaning towards adobe makes me think he is allergic to something that is pretty commonly used as a "safe" bonding or strenghtening agent.
A lot of people are allergic to formaldehyde and have no idea. I am severely allergic to it, and if I plan my environment it doesn't bother me one bit for the most part. Formaldehyde is also in a lot of things, but it's easy to live a normal life without it.
The thing about formaldehyde is that the product that contains it (lets say glue, in a desk) airs out for 2 weeks, you can't tell there is formaldehyde there. Most of the EI cases are psychological, not physical.
Having looked at the site, I can't help thinking that there might be a psychological element to "Environmental illness".
To play the devils advocate, and then agree with you, it is but it also isn't. I'm extremely allergic to formaldehyde, and you would be amazed at what type of shit has formaldehyde in it. Carpets, plywood, even put-it-together desks. When I buy one I have to leave it in a room or outside by itself, with the door closed and the windows open for about 2 weeks or I get sick.
Some people are allergic to certain things, and some things are all over the place. It sucks, but oh well.
Now, people who say they are allergic to an entire environment, I would say are mostly hypochondriacs. I perused through his site, and it is a very recent thing, one in which often times has no scientific backing. People say all the time, "I'm allergic to cigarette smoke" but that's like saying you are allergic to car exhaust. There is an amazing amount of similarity between car exhaust and cigarettes. The mind is extremely powerful. If I wasn't so young when I first discovered my formaldehyde reaction, I would question if it was in my head or not. If you look at a lot of these cases of people having "EI" they started when they were older in life.
Generally speaking, you don't suddenly become deathly allergic to things. It usually goes the other way around. Sensitive as a kid, and get stronger as an adult. You don't wake up one morning in your 17th year and become allergic to Carbon Dioxide.
as far as the elitest yuppie thing, you obviously have the dollar sign disease clouding your judgement. I dont make that much money yet
I just like comfortable things, and I'd be lying if I didn't say that at one point I did have a disease cloud of monetary ideas over me. I like to think that went away, and while I still make a very good living, my motivation is make decisions for myself first; money comes after.
The problem is, most people can't see past the slacks and dress shoes to see that I just find them comfortable, and I just happen to like it. I'd dress this way even if I was completely broke, and had to save up money for the slacks and shoes. To me, comfort is the most important part of daily life.
Oh and just as a side note, I did have a nice day, and you are the first person around here to ever respond to that. I also admit fallibility!;)
Maybe another day. I call people trolls with reckless abandon, and have no intentions of starting to recant now.
Well, I'm glad that you feel so self-important that your pride is worth more to you than accepting the simple fact that you were completely wrong. I'm glad you are so blatantly ignorant to not know current hosting rates, otherwise I may have the misfortune of firing you for the same head-in-the-sand but fundamentally-right-because-you-say-so mentality at some point in the future.
I only hope you never have children, because if they adopt the same fucked-over-head-to-toe logic you seem to possess with that single statement, they would be better off serving as suicide bombers against surrendering Iraqi soldiers.
Well as a disclaimer I work in a law office so professional attire is something I understand. The problem I see is when people cross over to a seemingly (i said *seemingly*;) ) elitest mindset about 'professionalism' and decide that folks dressed in anything less than a collared shirt and dockers (jeans only on friday, you slack ass hippies!) are less than adequate to take part in their daily social routine and don't deserve a decent chance at demonstrating their competence before being judged.
Competence is not the same as professionalism, and often times (especially in the IT world) they do not go hand in hand. I personally don't like jeans, and wear only slacks. I get a lot of shit for it from certain people when I go out on the weekends (They automatically assume I'm an elitist yuppy, which is funny because I have actually held the title "Ranch Hand") dressed like it. When I'm interviewing someone, I look at the full package. When I'm working with someone, I look at their personality and thought processes much more than their dress. I prefer to work with people with an adequate sense of hygeine and professional attire though, just like I prefer wearing jeans.
When my company starts hiring people, aside from the art department, I will have dress code enforcement. Strictly, no shirts with messages on them and nice jeans or slacks for the guys
Slashdot Mirror
Might not shoot him, but I get a little ticked that he's making his own omissions in transit.
Example:
Chinese government says "No XYZ can be displayed." Google says, "Ok." Chinese person searches for XYZ, Google says, "I have no results to display from you."
They are not Google's omissions. Do you think Google wants to omit results? No! But they do want to reach the highest number of people, and deal with it. You should instead compliment their efforts of a good piece of design, instead of chastizing Google because they're doing what they are required to do to maintain an international corporation.
I think this story is a bit overblown. It appears that most /.'s don't like microsoft and thats sad because microsoft is the driving company behind many many jobs.
/. right there. I'm confused here. I feel like someone just told me the sky is blue.
Uhm, you do realize that this is Slashdot, right? Of course you do... you cite
You are right though, Microsoft products can be secure. Just like Linux products can be insecure. The difference is in the default.
here you go again, making assanine assumptions. i am not racist, i am however pro-american and because i live here, and i do not want the quality of life here to go down. you seem to think that working hard will find you a job, bullshit. right now people in the tech sector get anywhere from 50 - 50,000 applications per job opening, do the math. some people are fools they think they are entitled to a BMW and a condo on the beach, screw them. im talking about average joe with 2.2 kids and a mortgage. those are the people i worry about.
.....
You said, and I quote "jackass with HB-1[sic]", which directly states you think that H1B workers are jackasses. This is racism. You obviously, and state this several times, have something against foreign workers. You are pro-American, which means anti-Non-American. This is racism.
Your stats are full of shit, too. Show me one job where they get more than 500 qualified applications and I'll start to think you can actually reason.
and i do not care if people (black, white, brown, or yellow) immagrate to the US. because that will help us. i WANT them to move here. not train here and go back to india. that HURTS the US.
What about employing them in India? This is what this is about, in case you forgot to read the article and understand what the hell this conversation is about.
and im going to say this one last time and take the chance that this might permiate your thick ass skull
A: sending jobs overseas by reducing local employment reduces a companies market
B: thereby reducing their profits.
C: thereby reducing there workforce.
D: GOTO A.
A: reduces a companies local market, increasing their global market.
B: an increased global market will increase profits.
C: an increased overseas, international workforce is created.
D: the average GNP in selected countries increases drastically, and the quality of life improves.
The people that are laid off to make way for more people being more comfortable in life is a casuality of economics. You do not understand economics, and it is painfully clear in your reasons.
Let me break it down to you how it works now: Company XYZ lays off 500 workers to make way for a consulting team from India that consists of 1500 workers. They pay the same amount over the year, and open 3 new projects that get completed. They now have 3 new projects in addition to their own, and hardware vendors have sold 1500 systems to 1500 Indians instead of 500 systems to 500 domestic workers.
Is this really that hard to understand? Are you honestly so blindly pro-American that you cannot see that more goods are sold if you hire people overseas?
oh and BTW people who have worked for the large majority of their life to get into a good position in the IT industry cannot afford to start over, and they shouldnt have to. somebody who is 35 years old and has a masters and two kids and a wife et all shouldnt be forced out of the industry. period.
Well, if they can't get a job they should do something to support their family. Go flip burgers, I don't care. With a masters and 10 years of experience, you should be able to get a job. If you can't, you obviously haven't networked enough or have some deep issues with yourself that cause you to be a poor candidate for a job selection. Again, not my problem, it's theirs.
Google's role in society is no longer one of profit, it has become the navigator for millions of people to access free information. With great power comes great responsiblity.
This is fundamentally wrong. If it is a public tool, it should be paid for by tax dollars and be institutionalized by the government.
Google is a company, and that is black and white. Regardless of ideological ideas of what a public tool should or should not do, it is there business what they do. People are not obligated to use Google, and Google is not obligated in any way to humor certain peoples thoughts on what is moral and just.
Therefore, as human beings, those who run google have moral and ethical obligations to protect the free flow of information.
At the sacrifice of their business? At which point does this free flow of information end? If someone posts a video of you doing something embarassing, is it your right to censor or attempt to? There is no moral obligation for any company to anybody outside of that company.
It may be legal for them to censor, but it is wrong as it damages the exchange of ideas which promote thought and freedom.
Take issue with the governments that require censorship, not with a tool that tries to reach as many people as possible. It's better that Google is available in China, even if it is censored, than if they don't have access to google at all.
You are fighting the wrong people here. You are shooting the messenger.
And furthermore, it seems that family always thinks that any computer related problem can be solved over the phone in a matter of minutes. "Hey, just call $YourName! He'll know what to do."
Granted, some problems can be solved per voice ("click the Start-button in the leftmost corner of your screen, choose Find, and Files and Folders. Type the name of the file you're looking for"), but the vast majority of the problems requires you to actually sit down at the computer.
My solution: Buy each family member that does this one computer book for every holiday until they stop. Ensure they are proper for the type of questions they ask. If they continuously ask stupid/newbie questions, go for the * for idiots books. If they ask questions about a certain app or what not, buy them books on that app until they stop asking you.
Now when the hell did i say i went to school ? what debt ? i have zero debt, and do not have a degree. its because I know my shit I have a job.
.... which leads into the next nice little tidbit - if all the americans become unemployed who the hell is buying the procuct ? people over in india are not buying stuff like americans do, and they wont for the next 20 years, in the meantime ? im supposed to watch these bloated "world thinkers" shit the economy away ? get a grip ! screw 20 years from now, what about now ? what if 60 million americans end up un-employed because of this crap ? then what ? feel chipper because the guy in india drives a toyota ? FSCK THAT !
.... i chose this industry because i love computers, not the paycheck - and you are not the only person who has had to take a paycut in the past few years. but thats not the end of the world. being unemployed for 5 years or longer is. and i have seen it first hand. its not a pretty picture. i understand economics i understand that quite a few people i know who are damn good at what they do can't get a job because some jackass came over on an HB-1 to train for 1/5th what they CAN take.
I'm assuming you are talking about my comments about quitting and selling real estate. Those were meant as general comments, not specifically to you. If you have to ask, then you are. If you aren't asking or can find a job, then I don't mean you as in you, but you as in the mass of people that aren't you.
you asked WHY american companies should hire american employees, simple dickwad WE ARE THE ONES WHO BUY THEIR PRODUCT ! not some indian or malasian making 4/hr, they can't afford what american companies charge
Right, so because Indians can't buy the products, American companies are supposed to make sure they can never buy the products? Is that what you are saying? It's what it sounds like. You are forgetting that for every one American that loses their job by it being out-sourced, 3 or more non-Americans can start improving their quality of life.
It's sad because you place more value on American lives than those of non-Americans.
i hate it when you bleeding hearts think we need to give everything away because you feel guilty or some crap. i like my loft, i like my job, i like my car. do i need all of it ? no, but why do i need to sacrifice for someone in india ? you feel so great for this cause then you do me a favor, "sacrifice" for both of us.
You don't need to give it away. This is what I'm saying. People are not obligated to work in a job sector that is being outsourced. People are not obligated to hire American workers over outsourcing overseas. People are not obligated to make sacrifices, and I'm not making any myself. You think that I have some sort of increased sympathy for the people outside of America, but this is wrong. I don't care about those people any more than I care about an American. What I do care about is increasing the capitalization of the world, the GNP of the world, the consumers of the world and increasing the quality of life for everybody. Why? Because in much less than 20 years, I can capitalize on those people and improve my own life.
and about your holier than thou cruft at the end of your post
If someone is unemployed for 5 years, they should definitely find another career. There is something wrong with them. Period. My holier-than-though stance is purely this: If you can't find a job in sector A, look in sector B. Repeat until Z, at which point, shoot yourself.
I'm not so arrogant as to not do it myself, had I difficulty finding a job.
You are also amazingly racist, "some jackass came over on an HB-1[sic] to train for 1/5th what they CAN take." I'll apologize for them here, they're sorry they want to improve their life and work really hard to do it. They're sorry that your friends have to be unemployed for them to do it, but they're fighting for their way through life.
People don't h
No we're not talking about high-wage work. We're talking about all types of work from all sectors of industry. Again you show that you do not possess any sort of critical thinking capacity. The high wage work is the project manager (me) and the low wage work is the peon visual basic programmer or the entry level tech support (you).
No, we're actually talking about tech support being outsourced. Apparently you didn't read the article. It isn't my fault. Besides, I seriously doubt you are in a high wage position because to get there you have to have a wee little bit of reasoning skills. You have demonstrated a clear lack of such skills, with your off-based slurs and lack of global economics. And you don't know me, so don't presume to think I'm a low wage tech worker. I'd be willing to wager that I make quite a bit more than you, but it doesn't matter. Not to me; money is only something to buy things I want. My happiness comes from the life I make, not with how much I make. This is why I support outsourcing tech support and development to other countries to present better lifestyles for those people. So they have the opportunity to live a life without worrying about food.
$600 * 12 is a whole lot more than $2500 you quoted, again, try to get some math. Just to quote the first person, from China. Spending $300 a month on rent, in a luxury apartment tends to make $600 last a lot longer.
This is exactly what I mean when I say you are stupid. You can't even understand a signle, simple point. You are so ignorantly and incorrectly bent on this idea that I want to protect jobs from "them damn foreigners" you can't or won't actually understand what you read. My argument the whole time was not that I was against globalization. You are too stupid to see that. I was arguing that this is double standard globalization, the corporations are protected, but the people are not. If you're going to open up jobs to other countries without penalty, you need to open up trade with other countries without penalty. If you're going to tax imported goods, you need to tax exported jobs. You still haven't addressed that simple issue. So in your next psychotic rant, I'd like you to justify to me how this is globalization. Try focusing on what I say, and not the twisted, delusional ideas resulting from an obviously fucked up thought process.
So it's my fault that you respond with irrelevant quotes about sweat shops and I tell you that you are an idiot for bringing it up? Riight. So, let me try to analyze what your point is. I think that outsourcing tech work is good for the world, and you disagree. So, now lets discuss this then. Why is it bad? What is the problem with increasing the pay of a set of individuals in a country, to increase their GNP and therefor increase the purchasing power of those people?
Tell me where my logic is flawed here, because I would love to hear it.
No.. fuck you. Fuck your God who or whatever it may be, don't place your religious conventions on me. I don't have any CD's you stupid, inane fuck. That didn't make a bit of sense. If you're saying fuck Americas CD's then that funny that you're a hypocrite. "Fuck your products/services! I'm glad that they make the world a better place!". What kind of ridiuclous crap is that? I guess they don't sell the proper type of psychiatric medication where you're from. You don't give a fuck about making the world a better place, nor do you have the intelligence to contribute to that cause. Go back and hide in your little MSNBC world where sweathsops are memories and Ugandans aren't as capable other nationalities. You know nothing of the world, nothing of the united states, and nothing in general.
Wow, when did I bring religious into this? This really is funny. Are you so desperate to prove your worth that you have to bring in things I never even implied and claim I said them? Does it hurt to be this mentally inadequate? I was also saying, with CDs, is to fuck the RIAA -- one of the majo
No problems with this but I think we need to look into foriegn outsourcing and H1B programs for lawyers, managers, accountants, marketing, and sales.
Accountants I'm actually surprised haven't been outsourced. I think a big part of it is people are less likely to trust someone they can't see regularly with access to their bank accounts.
Lawyers can't happen, because how do they go to trial? Other (non-court) lawyers could, but I think it ties into above.
Sales & Marketing, I agree with. I'm actually brewing up a venture to try to get this to start up. I believe that I can make a market selling to every country that has a) people, b) money, c) desire to economically expand. Which is quite a few countries; including all the countries that these jobs are being exported.
Where am I supposed to go? I'm and American citizen because I had the mixed fortune to be born in the US. It's the only place I'm entitled to live. So now I'm stuck going back to a country where the corporation is king, and who cares if half the people are unemployed, as long as the corporate masters are making their big bucks exploiting third world countries? Great. Okay, I'm not obligated to live in the U.S. Suicide is always an option...
Go to Mexico. Go to Canada. You are not my problem. For how well trained all these people are who fear their jobs, they have a surprisingly huge lack of skill at solving problems in their own lives.
Dick. There's nothing wrong with trying to protect your wages. If people don't stand up to vested interests you get situations like the begininning of industrial age with 12 yr old kids being worked to death for starvation wages. Or serfdom. It's economics... man you're a bozo.
No, and you are supposed to care about your wages. But, the fact remains, economics dictates that the lower-class will rise to meet the middle class of what was, and the middle class will either find a new source to capitalize from the new-coming into middle class or go into lower-class. I'm not sure how I don't understand economics, when all of this is basic economics and has already happened with manufacturing in the US and... gasp... everybody survived and no one is serfs.
It's really funny how closely this resembles the remarks of the manfuacturing exports though.
Can't see the forest, through the trees.
And pay the mortgage and support the kids how? Stupid libertarian bachelors.
I don't know, sell realty. Not my problem. I'm not a bachelor, or libertarian. But thank you for your wonderful, well thought out insults, attempting to make other peoples problems my own.
See, instead of bitching about how great America was, I make my own way through life. It's called "Personal Accountability", I recomment you try it sometime.
Thank you. To all you out of the US Moderation hounds. It's folks like this, who have no clue about how economies actually work that can spew this sort of tripe ( You DO know that the real scenario is that you're immediately obsolete the moment you're BORN, dont' you ? ).
Uhm, computers are obsolete as soon as they are made. People increase in value. Most people, some people stagnate and become a burden on society. Go study Nash's Equilibrium a little bit, and tell me how economics work.
Hint: they are NOT as good as me. I've worked in more than one company bringing over H1B's. They may have a hard work ethic ( the one point I'll concede to you on...), but I would be hard pressed to say that their cookie-cutter mentality will produce better software.
They may not be as good as you, but they are better than a lot of other people. I have worked with plenty of H1Bs and am constantly amazed with certain talents some of them have. I've worked with one for the last year and a half who is phenominal, and has more Swing/Java experience than anybody I've met since Java was created.
And....coming from someone says on his website(and I quote) "If I had my way, every person on the damned internet would be communicating through telnet sessions", I think I'd be safe in saying that your degree isn't in economics. So, quit YOUR bitching...this is the USA. I may fight for your right to spew such utter junk. But by the same right, I'll tell you to shut up, sit down, and enjoy your venti latte, while someone else has their turn on the soapbox to voice their rant.
Yes, if I had my way it would be like that. If I had my way, people would lose their right to drive the moment they cruise in the left lane instead of moving over. It's called wonderful, pipe dream fantasies that will never come true.
You can tell me to shut up as many times as you want, you wont be the first and it wont be the first time I ignore you.
Have a nice day.
You are missing the point. There are millions of Americans who have excellent IT related skills. These folks have trained for many years and their work has contributed positively to the bottom lines of the companies they work for. From a global perspective, maybe exporting their jobs is good, but from an American perspective, it's not a good thing.
I'm not missing any point, I just see the big picture. You just don't like me because I see things from a global perspective instead of an American perspective. Sorry that I care about 3x more non-Americans than Americans. I apologize for my callous, insensitive stance. Really.
With the way the global economy is moving, eventually all labor will be moved to countries that have the least amount of labor protection laws. Certainly, given 100 years or so those governments will change enough that nobody will have a competitive advantage, but as it stands average Americans are having to degrade their lives because the Multi-national corps want to add a few points to their profit margin.
This is wrong. And, ironically, the same thing that people said a hundred years ago. You realize that this happens all the time. Why do you think that cars went to Japan? Trinkets and electronics went to China? It's because it is the way that the world markets currently work.
Obviously China or India will rise to be the next world power, but Americans don't want to be shunted off to the side, destitute, getting by on Mac'n'Cheese and Top Ramen.
Then innovate to stay on top with the next biggest inventions, instead of growing complacent with complaining about how great your country once was.
For a UNIX geek, you sound suspiciously like an overpaid CEO, CFO, or other such low life. I look forward to when these jobs are exported as well. Nobody is worth millions of dollars a year, regardless of what they do.
I'm a low life because I actually understand economics? Go watch A Beautiful Mind a few times, and study the part where Nash discovers his equilibrium.
There are plenty of people in Afganistan; I'm sure many are qualified to do your job at a mere fraction of what you're being paid. What, you were laid off?!
In one sentence you call me and overpaid C*O, then you ask if I was laid off? I see you added me to your foes list, which I could care less about. I only care about discussing things with people who are able to reason, so it suits me fine. But, did you put any thought into this comment? Did you just see, "He's saying that Americans jobs are better off overseas?" and freak out?
Seriously, put some thought into your life. Understand that there is no quality of life being lost. It's called economics, and it has happened 4 times in the last 100 years.
I'm saying what I'm saying because I know, and study how these systems work. There are good reasons why I'm not unemployed, and you people would do good from actually listening and researching further what I'm saying instead of arguing with over-reactive statements, like this: "Then die or move to Somalia"
You know, there is a big difference between Somalia and India. But, I'm sure you knew that and that is why you posted it... or something.
First off, I never said anything about programmers. All types of jobs are being shipped overseas, try to think outside yourself for a minute. But you are correct, no one pays programmers $1. The average salary of a programmer in China is 20,700 yuan, which is about $2500. That's a whopping $6.85 cents a day, which is %500 above the average household income.
Holy shit, go look at a job site. You are actually more likely to make much, much more. Seriously, go to a google site. I know people from/in China. They are programmers or business man who hire programmers. They all make good money, especially for the cost of living. It would be equivalent to about $55K a year, and a quick job search in a few places will confirm that you are full of shit. Feel free to provide some facts for the bullshit numbers you spew in the future, it actually helps your argument.
Kathie Lee Gifford's line of clothing did phenomenal in terms of a return on investment. It's hard not to make money when your manufacturing costs are nil. I can't speak for the actual quality of the clothing, but the pricing was competitive, and sales did well.
That's ok though, because those little kids in the sweatshops weren't obligated to live in a third world nation, and that nation isn't obligated to see to the welfare of it's people. Hey, it's just the globalization of the economy. If your 9 year old can't pull the 12 hour days like little Hsu Chao over there, he should quit and find another profession. He's "obsolete" and "over-capatalized".
Yes, and you know, since we're talking about high-wage work it's completely relevant. Wow, you are so amazingly wrong, and apparently know this, and are attempting to salvage some sort of dignity here by bringing in sad memories of sweat shops and compare those to current development and tech support industries located out of the US? You have just proven yourself inadequate in this discussion past any reasonable doubt I already had.
Let me break it down to you again: You don't like it because you think America is some fantastic land of opportunity that nobody else should share the same quality of life because you feel your own life will be put in jeopardy because of it. You are a selfish fuck. Your comments about the US market being the most lucrative is because of fucks like you, who think that the only country that should have the same lifestyle as you, is the US and all other countries should be made to suffer because of your greed.
It doesn't matter, because the rules of economics are against you. You apparently only got a neat story out of A Beautiful Mind instead of actually understanding Nash's Equilibrium, because that is what this is.
Only you pseudo-patriot racists seem to have an issue with the fact that you can still raise your quality of life because you believe so hard that these outsiders are taking jobs that are rightfully yours.
And please, go show me where in the US Constitution it says that the country is owned by the people. If anything, it's owned by your major companies buying politicians. So fuck you, fuck your CDs, and fuck your puritan attitude. I personally welcome every company that hires people from overseas because it makes the world a better place.
If only you had an idea of the world outside of your own little country, you would be much less of a prick.
First off X your missing the real point of the whole outsourcing thing. americans are losing jobs, here and now. and if we dont have jobs we dont buy products.... this would also be what most people call the "current state of affairs". and another thing, domestic spending accounts for 2/3's of the money involved in our economy. so singapore, japan, india, et all dont total HALF what we do in terms of spending. and i do not see that changing.
So I'm supposed to care that one American can't buy an expensive pair of shoes, but 3 Indians suddenly can? Perhaps you need to gain a more global perspective on the economics you are trying to preach here. If Microsoft can lay off 10,000 employees in the United States, and create 30,000 jobs in India they have just gained 20,000 possible consumers as a net total. This is what will happen, because cost of living there is less than the pay difference as it factors in. You can live comfortably on $300USD in many countries. If three people get paid $7/hour, where the same domestic position is getting paid $25, than you have 2 extra people that will increase their consumer spending. If they are in the IT industry, chances are they will buy more computer products, which will come from American companies. At least for a while, until other countries "catch up" to the U.S.
So tell me how this is bad from a global perspective?
You do realize that at the rate that Chinese is urbanizing it's population that there will be an introduction of almost a billion people into a world market in an estimated 20 years? So tell me why this is bad? Because it threatens your lifestyle? Sounds a bit hypocritical to me. Sounds a bit monopolistic to me.
oh and another thing, the people in india that make 12k/year do not have anywhere near the quality of life we do. and they might not for another 10 - 20 years. (this comes from experience) they are essentially a third world country, bad water supply and famine in some parts of the country among other things. but of course you like so many other people in this damn thread think americans should "lower" our living standard and hence lower our cost of living. right, you move to some third world country.... see if you can dig up some bandwidth so you can post to slashdot, and complain of hunger.
Did I say that they do have the quality of life? I don't think I did, but what I did say is that I support movements that help their quality of life improve. I'm not sure why you think you need to sacrifice your lifestyle in order to allow other countries to increase theirs. If you cannot find an IT job, find a different career. There are plenty of jobs to be had, and maybe you should look at a different profession. Sure, you went to school for it and racked up debts, but it's not as if you are doing anything proactive sitting around bitching about how bad the economy is and how evil the companies are that are outsourcing their work. They do what is cost-effective for them, and it just so happens to really help a lot of other countries; whether 2nd or 3rd world, it doesn't matter.
and no i do not support "fat cat" living. the dot-bomb era was a frigging joke. no web designer should make over 35k. not a single one. but at the same time a guy who is a programmer (a good one.) shouldnt be making 25k when people who rely on his production make 5 - 10 times that. i have no issue outsourcing tech support and other low level jobs. but good jobs should stay here if the company wants to sell here. period.
Why? This is what your side has never given a valid reason, that is economically sound, that is something different than some idealistic, pseudo-loyalist and patriotic bullshit reason.
Would you pay twice as much for a Ford as you do for a Toyota? Yet, you expect companies to do the same. For what? Some sort of idiotic patriotism that you people feel companies are obligated to respond to.
I took a pay cut after the economy pulled it's head out of it's ass, bu
Over the past two decades, most of the jobs sent overseas were in the manufacturing sector. Not anymore. Companies are increasingly hiring cheap foreign labor for engineering and computer jobs. In case you missed the free trade bullshit propaganda: Those were the types of jobs that were supposed to stay in the U.S.
Why in the hell are they "supposed" to stay in the US? Because you all like your little monopoly on IT jobs? What about that Information wants to be Free shit? Open your eyes, and understand that there is no given right for companies to not do it. But to break down how this can be good for you, assuming you aren't too short-sighted to see it.
Raising other countries economies allows for more consumers, innovation, and a general positive boost for the global economy. This also entails a higher quality of life, eventually, in the US. There are more consumers that can afford "luxury" goods that Americans take for granted, thereby turning the US into more of a business man/trade state. Think of Singapore, on a much larger scale.
Think about it! The point of hiring cheap labor is to produce goods at a lower cost. Fine. Who buys these finished goods? There's the problem. Since more Americans are being fired from their jobs, fewer Americans will be buying those Nike shoes. And how many pairs of Nike shoes will be purchased by a Chinese factory worker making a dollar per day?
Considering not many Chinese factory workers make that little, probably a few of them will. If you are talking about Urbanized China (about 2x more people than the US, which don't make that much less than Americans) than you have about twice as many Nike's being sold. But of course you didn't think about that because you are close-minded, elitist, and think that people have an obligation to be xenophobic and only worry about employing good ol' fashioned Americans.
This is the Oh Shit moment. This is the point at which you come to realize that the entire system is flawed. This system is based on the ability of companies to produce goods at a minimum apparent cost without any consideration of how people are going to get the money to buy the finished goods.
This is the "Oh Shit moment" for a bunch of self-righteous, contradicting, hypocritical, monopolistic greedy American kids.
You do understand that by outsourcing the jobs, for about 1/3 of what they pay American workers, that you open up a huge consumer market. Lets take India. You pay an average Indian $8-$10/hour (which is the actual rate that they're outsourcing, on average, not this $1 crap that you idiots are propogating) and suddenly they can buy all these goods from American companies. They increase their consumer markets, and increase their tax dollars by becoming larger companies, and you go pump gas. I'll take premium, and don't scratch my Lexus.
No. Here's how it breaks down: They aren't protected by labor laws and work twice as hard for a fraction of a fraction what I HAVE to get paid. We have minimum wage in this country to protect people from working for $1 a day, a majority of the countries being outsourced to don't.
- outs ego.
It's hard to even respond to this with some degree of respect, as I think I would be more engaged debating with a tree sloth on the finer points of superstring theory.
Nobody pays programmers $1. You get what you pay for, in case you failed to understand that concept. People aren't going to ship jobs overseas if they get shit back. Garbage in, Garbage out.
It's not like we're outsourcing mundane jobs that don't require intelligence or education. Both are required, and both are met. Your apparent lack of both is probably why you are worried.
No, but I am obligated to pay an import tax on foreign products to protect the same companies that are shipping jobs offshore. If they can ship off jobs so cheap, I should be able to import goods/services just as cheap. Why is it that a coproration should enjoy protection that the people of the nation supporting it don't receive?
Why are you obligated to buy those goods? You know, there is an entire collection of (misguided) people who will only buy American made goods. Why don't you join them, because you lack any insight as to what a global economy is. For more information, why do you think that the US is the only nation that is supporting that company? In case you failed to read from my previous comments, the United States accounts for a ridiculously small amount of "consumers" in the world. You really should travel outside of your precious little country of ideals and irrational behavior. You may learn a little bit more about life, and while you are overseas, take a few economics courses.
That was a pretty stupid statement. Yes, we CAN do something about it. We can elect officials into office who support an export tax on offshore work. and It's not economics, it's politics. Why should they be able to sell my job to foreigners for cheap, when I can't buy their product from foreigners for cheap?
Continuing your trend of paragraphs, the only thing stupid about this is your remarks. You can go ahead an elect officials to make it too expensive for companies to out-source and all you will see is downsizing and bankruptcies. Another thing you fail to understand is the emmense amount of tax dollars brought in by these companies. Tax dollars that keep the country running smoothly, and sadly pay incompetent people like yourself for unemployment insurance. You don't contribute significantly to the tax pool. Your voice doesn't matter. Learn to accept the fact that your little view of the world isn't reality, and try to educate yourself instead of spewing idiotic comments about your (poor) understanding of global economic systems.
The companies that produce more, sell more, and pay more taxes. This benefits everybody, not just you and your fragile little IT-went-bye-bye-because-of-over-paid-college-drop
Again.. stupid. So if Uganda starts instituting slavery, and forcing slaves to do tech support, all paid tech support around the world becomes over-capatalized and obsolete? Find another profession where?
Yes, because I'm sure slaves in Uganda will provide excellent tech support in the necessary major languages of the world. For a realistic example, lets look at Manila in the Philipines. They outsource huge amounts of tech support here, both in the way of email and telephone support. Companies here save huge amounts of money, and the Philipino economy gets a boost, thereby producing more consumers to purchase goods from American companies to setup more call centers. Unfortunately due to the Philipines political issues, this is becoming less ideal for American based companies and it's now moving into other countries.
For the amount of times you said my remarks are stupid, you have failed to understand even basic concepts of economics 10 times over. I hope that your parents paid for your education and it wasn't subsidized by anybody else, because they got ripped off.
If too many US jobs go overseas, something similar might possibly happen. Economics "says" that if too few people can afford to buy your products, you may go out of business. If it happens to too many companies, the "economy" starts going downhill. Eventually, the accumulated capital in the US may be depleted and companies who moved jobs overseas will have no customers.
It's called economics. It isn't a bad thing. It means other countries are developing and competing with the US.
For all this anti-monopoly zeal that Slashdot poses, it all goes away when they realize that the US IT market is like a company with many competitors now. Everyone enjoyed the monopoly while it lasted, and now that the global market is deciding where the competition lies, they start whining about it not being fair.
The countries who moved jobs overseas will have overseas customers. In case you failed to notice, the US constitutes a major minority population of the world. Almost a tenth of the population of China, which is becoming amazingly urbanized at extremely quick rates (Just check the literacy rates of China over the last two decades). 2 Billion new consumers will be reached through India and China, you think the world cares about the few Americans left in the dust?
I'm still not sure why this is news, nor surprising, nor worth getting up in arms about.
Here's how it breaks down: They are just as good as you, and work just as hard, for a fraction of what you want to get paid. You are not obligated to live in the US. Companies are not obligated to hire US based employees.
If you don't like it, well, shut up because you can't change it. It's called economics, and even if you want something else to be true, it isn't going to happen.
Why do people continue to bitch about this? You are over-capitalized, and are obsolete. Find another profession.
I tend to lean toward the assumption that many people like this are hypochondriacs. BUT, I got an entirely new alergy as an adult. Some nuts, most notably hazelnut, just make my mouth numb. I know they didn't do that before because I loved the stuff. The whole numbness thing has made them drop a few rungs on the desireability index. I no longer drink a hazelnut coffee unless I have a big craving. I still eat Nutella, I just make sure it's in the dessert... Still the reaction didn't show up until I was in my early 20's, which helps me believe people that claim to aquire allergies.
I hear that a lot with nuts, it's weird. I know quite a few people who suddenly develop allergies to nuts. My formaldehyde allergy has gotten better, but it still will give me a migraine and I start throwing up in about 30 minutes (Before it was about 2 minutes, along with fever, and all sorts of other badness.)
Abundance chemicals in the air should effect any person long before they're old for their mind to start fucking with them...
The fact that the guy is leaning towards adobe makes me think he is allergic to something that is pretty commonly used as a "safe" bonding or strenghtening agent.
A lot of people are allergic to formaldehyde and have no idea. I am severely allergic to it, and if I plan my environment it doesn't bother me one bit for the most part. Formaldehyde is also in a lot of things, but it's easy to live a normal life without it.
The thing about formaldehyde is that the product that contains it (lets say glue, in a desk) airs out for 2 weeks, you can't tell there is formaldehyde there. Most of the EI cases are psychological, not physical.
Having looked at the site, I can't help thinking that there might be a psychological element to "Environmental illness".
To play the devils advocate, and then agree with you, it is but it also isn't. I'm extremely allergic to formaldehyde, and you would be amazed at what type of shit has formaldehyde in it. Carpets, plywood, even put-it-together desks. When I buy one I have to leave it in a room or outside by itself, with the door closed and the windows open for about 2 weeks or I get sick.
Some people are allergic to certain things, and some things are all over the place. It sucks, but oh well.
Now, people who say they are allergic to an entire environment, I would say are mostly hypochondriacs. I perused through his site, and it is a very recent thing, one in which often times has no scientific backing. People say all the time, "I'm allergic to cigarette smoke" but that's like saying you are allergic to car exhaust. There is an amazing amount of similarity between car exhaust and cigarettes. The mind is extremely powerful. If I wasn't so young when I first discovered my formaldehyde reaction, I would question if it was in my head or not. If you look at a lot of these cases of people having "EI" they started when they were older in life.
Generally speaking, you don't suddenly become deathly allergic to things. It usually goes the other way around. Sensitive as a kid, and get stronger as an adult. You don't wake up one morning in your 17th year and become allergic to Carbon Dioxide.
as far as the elitest yuppie thing, you obviously have the dollar sign disease clouding your judgement. I dont make that much money yet
;)
I just like comfortable things, and I'd be lying if I didn't say that at one point I did have a disease cloud of monetary ideas over me. I like to think that went away, and while I still make a very good living, my motivation is make decisions for myself first; money comes after.
The problem is, most people can't see past the slacks and dress shoes to see that I just find them comfortable, and I just happen to like it. I'd dress this way even if I was completely broke, and had to save up money for the slacks and shoes. To me, comfort is the most important part of daily life.
Oh and just as a side note, I did have a nice day, and you are the first person around here to ever respond to that.
I also admit fallibility!
Maybe another day. I call people trolls with reckless abandon, and have no intentions of starting to recant now.
Well, I'm glad that you feel so self-important that your pride is worth more to you than accepting the simple fact that you were completely wrong. I'm glad you are so blatantly ignorant to not know current hosting rates, otherwise I may have the misfortune of firing you for the same head-in-the-sand but fundamentally-right-because-you-say-so mentality at some point in the future.
I only hope you never have children, because if they adopt the same fucked-over-head-to-toe logic you seem to possess with that single statement, they would be better off serving as suicide bombers against surrendering Iraqi soldiers.
Well as a disclaimer I work in a law office so professional attire is something I understand. The problem I see is when people cross over to a seemingly (i said *seemingly* ;) ) elitest mindset about 'professionalism' and decide that folks dressed in anything less than a collared shirt and dockers (jeans only on friday, you slack ass hippies!) are less than adequate to take part in their daily social routine and don't deserve a decent chance at demonstrating their competence before being judged.
Competence is not the same as professionalism, and often times (especially in the IT world) they do not go hand in hand. I personally don't like jeans, and wear only slacks. I get a lot of shit for it from certain people when I go out on the weekends (They automatically assume I'm an elitist yuppy, which is funny because I have actually held the title "Ranch Hand") dressed like it. When I'm interviewing someone, I look at the full package. When I'm working with someone, I look at their personality and thought processes much more than their dress. I prefer to work with people with an adequate sense of hygeine and professional attire though, just like I prefer wearing jeans.
When my company starts hiring people, aside from the art department, I will have dress code enforcement. Strictly, no shirts with messages on them and nice jeans or slacks for the guys
Have a nice day.
Thanks, you too.