That's the funny thing about this kind of research. I've read about the same thing when researchers stimulate other parts of the4 brain. People really, really want to believe their impulses come from the self. The fact that someone can inject impulses into their brain creates cognitive dissonance. In order to maintain their sense of self, they have to internalize the impulse, even if they know it came from a wire.
Who says I feel sorry for myself? You are reading your own personal biases into this. Irrational optimism works, sure, but you have to kick start things with other techniques because the motivation and ability to use it are lacking in clinically depressed people.
I don't suffer from clinical depression. I've got a much milder case that can in fact be treated with 'irrational optimism' as you and everything.com so blithely call it. And I have treated it. So, your attempt at an attack is another epic fail for you. You should stick with what you know and stop assuming that because you are smart and know a lot about certain things, that you are an expert at everything. it's unbecoming, and another sign of a deficient personality that's overcompensating.
No shit, really? I never would have known. But you see, I'm not speaking to a psychologically literate audience. I was using the term as generally understood by lay people.
Will is an illusion. The impulse to do something comes from the interaction of the environment and the brain. There is no 'self' to enact will, the impulse happens due to circumstance. One circumstance that can interfere with an impulse becoming an action is a cut nerve. Another is a problem with the network not routing the signal properly, with too much attenuation because the body does not produce enough seratonin for proper synapse relay.
People who like to troll on the intarnets are generally rather pathetic people who need to outrage others in order to feel some sense of control over the chaos that is their lives. But hey, you do whatever you need to in order to feel superior. Me, I accomplish things in order to feel good about myself, but I'm sure that 'fucking with other people in order to feel superior' thing is working great for you.
The other fellow who responded to me, talking about the fair world bias, he described you to a t. I feel sorry for people like you. I may suffer from depression, but at least I'm not a pathetic wretch who has to put others down in order to feel good about himself.
No, they are not. Bomber crews are in a more protected space, and enemies can not see them to specifically target them. If the pilot is shot, many times the copilot or another person who can fly the plane survives and the plane makes it back.
Says a poster named 'Jizzbug,' clearly a paragon of maturity. Thanks for your 'help,' but I wasn't whining. What kind of mental problems do you have that you misinterpret a reasoned explanation regarding a serious and misunderstood medical condition as 'whining.' Honestly if it were as easy as you say, don't you think we would have figured it out by now? What do you think depressed people are getting out of being depressed? Do you honestly think it's a choice we make?
Now, what if, after deciding to stand up, I can't actually stand up? Say I'm crippled, a paraplegic? Would you tell me to get over the fact that I have no legs, to stop whining, and just stand up? What if I have legs, but the nerves are damaged? What if I'm suffering from clinical depression, and the impulse to stand up is thus blocked from becoming the action of standing up? Do you understand that there isn't a difference?
I have to ask, why do you care so much about this issue?
Really? Because I've mostly seen it used appropriately here. And it is appropriate, in a debate, to point out when the other side is unfairly depicting your position. Whining about other people's use of the term 'straw-man' is a fad used by unfortunate individuals whose argumentation strategy consists of little more than straw-men, improper generalization, and ad-hominems.
They use pasteurized milk from cattle that are fed on artificial feed, and they aren't aged nearly long enough. You've not had good cheese at all if all you've had is cheese from America. Sorry, not dissing on the US, there's plenty of things we do well. Cheese just isn't one of them.
Good lord. You went to wikipedia and quoted the first line of the entry on neurosis. And you are making up your own definition of 'ability to reason.' What you are describing is not a deficiency in the ability to reason. Focusing on the negative is an emotional feedback cycle. People like you describe can often reason very well. They understand full well what is happening, how to get out of it, etc. They can reason logically and consistently. The problem is entirely different, you are entirely without understanding, and I am entirely unmotivated to give it to you. If you want to know more about psychology, psychiatry, or brain function in general, I suggest talking with an expert in those fields, which you clearly are not.
It's interesting. Basically, people with the short form of the seratonin synthesis gene are prone to depression, if they have a traumatic triggering event or events at the right stage of their development. The researcher who did the experiment tested herself and found she had the short form, but had not experienced any major trauma growing up, and so wasn't herself prone to depression.
By chemical imbalance I mean, "Unable to properly synthesize enough seratonin for normal functioning." The thing that medication does, for those suffering from real, clinical depression, is it lets us get over the hurdle of, "How do we motivate ourselves to do thing things we know will help get us out of it?" I mean, that's the real killer. You know what to do to get yourself out, you just don't have the motivation to do it, even knowing it will help. The medication lets us engage that motivation enough to get out of it.
That's the thing this study doesn't take into account. You need to do more than just take the pills, they only kick-start the process.
Oh, hell yes. The thing is, most people are born with a strong desire for fairness. In fact, in recent economic experiments, people will act against their own self interests to achieve fairness. And most people want equitable, not equal outcomes. We like it when merit is rewarded. Now, couple those natural tendencies with the prime advantage of being in a dominant class: you never have to question your assumptions. You are normal. Your beliefs are right. When non-dominant class people's assumptions and beliefs clash with yours, they are the ones who must adapt. So well educated, white middle class guys are told the world is fair. It's what they want to believe anyway, and it certainly paints them in a good light, so why wouldn't they believe it? I mean, who wants to believe they got where they are through institutionalized unfairness?
Here I thought it was, "If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart. If you're a conservative at 40, you've sold your heart for a false sense of security." I say this as a 37 year old liberal, who knows, maybe I'll have a change of heart at 40. But I sure hope not.
What you are talking about is not clinical depression. It is neurosis. Neurosis is very treatable with talk therapy alone, but is often helped by anti-anxiety medications as well.
Studies of post traumatic stress disorder in WWII pilots back this up. Fighter pilots, who had the highest mortality rate, had the lowest rate of PTSD because they felt like they had more control. Bomber pilots have a lower rate of death, but feel like they have less control than in a maneuverable fighter, and they had a middling level of PTSD. Bomber crews, the safest group, had the highest rate of PTSD because they felt as if they had no control.
Children everywhere are far more concerned about the Monster Under the Bed issue. Four out of five children surveyed would gladly get in a van with anyone who can take care of the MUBs. Don't you claim that jumping from the floor to the bed and vice versa, thus avoiding the deadly 'near-bed zone' does anything. The average MUB has tentacles that are FAR longer than any child can jump. And don't try to tell me the 'hiding under the covers so they can't see you' trick works. MUBs can smell fear, everyone knows that. Just because you can't see them doesn't mean they can't smell you. Please, grown-ups of the world, who will stand up and deal with the MUBs?
People should just mod down anything they don't agree with, especially if it challenges their world view. Rationality is overblown, my gut tells me I'm right.
If I had any mod points, I'd mod you down right now.
Then it isn't a chemical imbalance. There is a difference between being unhappy and being depressed. I know that many times when I am in the grips of it, I wish I could actually feel unhappy. It's more like a fog, a lead blanket, a loss of engagement with life. A positive attitude could help, but how do you do that? "Just decide to" isn't the answer. Exercising can help, lots of things can help, but how do you decide to do those things, and then actually do them? If you have an answer, I'd love to hear it.
But I've heard people like you all my life. The "Buck up little camper," the "Just snap out of it," the "Oh stop whining," you know you aren't doing it for me. The fact that I am depressed makes you uncomfortable, maybe even challenges your ideas about the self and free will, and you just want me to shut up and go away. You don't really care if I get over it or not. At least that's what most people who talk your talk are actually like, who knows, maybe you are different. But I doubt it.
But they arent immune from tea parties! Right. That's going to phase Pakistani leaders. "I say chums, let's protest this outrage by dumping their tea!" will be followed closely by the sound of gunshots, and silence. These aren't exactly Brits we're dealing with, "Oh no! Our tea! Whatever will we do?" isn't exactly the response I'd expect from them.
By not watching ads, you are stealing from the hard working website owners and operators like CmdrTaco here. I mean, due to lack of funds the poor guy has obviously had to hire brain damaged chimpanzees as editors.
I keed, I keed, you guys are great, don't cancel my account please.;)
Either: a) Spend trillions, ruin our economy, and come up with solutions to a problem we don't know anything about, including whether it actually exists or what's causing it. b) Spend a few million, help our long-term economy, and come up with useful science to help us make reasonable decisions and along the way come up with theories that may have useful applications in other areas. How do you know that fixing global warming now will ruin our economy? We are talking about reducing waste. That usually means being more efficient and doing more with less. Also, those trillions, who are they going to, and won't that help our economy? I think the economy will change, certainly, but will it die? That's more ludicrous than the silliest kind of global warming predictions
Most of the people whining about global warming in the it'll-kill-you-tomorrow camp seem to be politicians, the media, and scientists with expertise in what would happen *if* there is climate change (biologists, etc.), not scientists with expertise in what can cause climate change. Where are you getting that info from? It seems you are just making things up to suit your argument. This is so typical of global warming deniers. You've made up your mind and damn the facts, you'll make up some of those too. You don't want global warming to be true, and you'll make up whatever facts you need to in order to reach that conclusion.
Slashdot Mirror
That's the funny thing about this kind of research. I've read about the same thing when researchers stimulate other parts of the4 brain. People really, really want to believe their impulses come from the self. The fact that someone can inject impulses into their brain creates cognitive dissonance. In order to maintain their sense of self, they have to internalize the impulse, even if they know it came from a wire.
Who says I feel sorry for myself? You are reading your own personal biases into this. Irrational optimism works, sure, but you have to kick start things with other techniques because the motivation and ability to use it are lacking in clinically depressed people.
I don't suffer from clinical depression. I've got a much milder case that can in fact be treated with 'irrational optimism' as you and everything.com so blithely call it. And I have treated it. So, your attempt at an attack is another epic fail for you. You should stick with what you know and stop assuming that because you are smart and know a lot about certain things, that you are an expert at everything. it's unbecoming, and another sign of a deficient personality that's overcompensating.
No shit, really? I never would have known. But you see, I'm not speaking to a psychologically literate audience. I was using the term as generally understood by lay people.
That's great, and it works, but people suffering from major depression need help before they can manage a task like that.
Will is an illusion. The impulse to do something comes from the interaction of the environment and the brain. There is no 'self' to enact will, the impulse happens due to circumstance. One circumstance that can interfere with an impulse becoming an action is a cut nerve. Another is a problem with the network not routing the signal properly, with too much attenuation because the body does not produce enough seratonin for proper synapse relay.
People who like to troll on the intarnets are generally rather pathetic people who need to outrage others in order to feel some sense of control over the chaos that is their lives. But hey, you do whatever you need to in order to feel superior. Me, I accomplish things in order to feel good about myself, but I'm sure that 'fucking with other people in order to feel superior' thing is working great for you.
The other fellow who responded to me, talking about the fair world bias, he described you to a t. I feel sorry for people like you. I may suffer from depression, but at least I'm not a pathetic wretch who has to put others down in order to feel good about himself.
No, they are not. Bomber crews are in a more protected space, and enemies can not see them to specifically target them. If the pilot is shot, many times the copilot or another person who can fly the plane survives and the plane makes it back.
Says a poster named 'Jizzbug,' clearly a paragon of maturity. Thanks for your 'help,' but I wasn't whining. What kind of mental problems do you have that you misinterpret a reasoned explanation regarding a serious and misunderstood medical condition as 'whining.' Honestly if it were as easy as you say, don't you think we would have figured it out by now? What do you think depressed people are getting out of being depressed? Do you honestly think it's a choice we make?
Now, what if, after deciding to stand up, I can't actually stand up? Say I'm crippled, a paraplegic? Would you tell me to get over the fact that I have no legs, to stop whining, and just stand up? What if I have legs, but the nerves are damaged? What if I'm suffering from clinical depression, and the impulse to stand up is thus blocked from becoming the action of standing up? Do you understand that there isn't a difference?
I have to ask, why do you care so much about this issue?
Really? Because I've mostly seen it used appropriately here. And it is appropriate, in a debate, to point out when the other side is unfairly depicting your position. Whining about other people's use of the term 'straw-man' is a fad used by unfortunate individuals whose argumentation strategy consists of little more than straw-men, improper generalization, and ad-hominems.
They use pasteurized milk from cattle that are fed on artificial feed, and they aren't aged nearly long enough. You've not had good cheese at all if all you've had is cheese from America. Sorry, not dissing on the US, there's plenty of things we do well. Cheese just isn't one of them.
Good lord. You went to wikipedia and quoted the first line of the entry on neurosis. And you are making up your own definition of 'ability to reason.' What you are describing is not a deficiency in the ability to reason. Focusing on the negative is an emotional feedback cycle. People like you describe can often reason very well. They understand full well what is happening, how to get out of it, etc. They can reason logically and consistently. The problem is entirely different, you are entirely without understanding, and I am entirely unmotivated to give it to you. If you want to know more about psychology, psychiatry, or brain function in general, I suggest talking with an expert in those fields, which you clearly are not.
It's interesting. Basically, people with the short form of the seratonin synthesis gene are prone to depression, if they have a traumatic triggering event or events at the right stage of their development. The researcher who did the experiment tested herself and found she had the short form, but had not experienced any major trauma growing up, and so wasn't herself prone to depression.
By chemical imbalance I mean, "Unable to properly synthesize enough seratonin for normal functioning." The thing that medication does, for those suffering from real, clinical depression, is it lets us get over the hurdle of, "How do we motivate ourselves to do thing things we know will help get us out of it?" I mean, that's the real killer. You know what to do to get yourself out, you just don't have the motivation to do it, even knowing it will help. The medication lets us engage that motivation enough to get out of it.
That's the thing this study doesn't take into account. You need to do more than just take the pills, they only kick-start the process.
Meh, I read it in a self help book. The author could be pulling shit out of his butt, you know how self help authors are.
Tony Robbins HUNGRY!
But it sounds good, and plausible, doesn't it? It may even be true.
Oh, hell yes. The thing is, most people are born with a strong desire for fairness. In fact, in recent economic experiments, people will act against their own self interests to achieve fairness. And most people want equitable, not equal outcomes. We like it when merit is rewarded. Now, couple those natural tendencies with the prime advantage of being in a dominant class: you never have to question your assumptions. You are normal. Your beliefs are right. When non-dominant class people's assumptions and beliefs clash with yours, they are the ones who must adapt. So well educated, white middle class guys are told the world is fair. It's what they want to believe anyway, and it certainly paints them in a good light, so why wouldn't they believe it? I mean, who wants to believe they got where they are through institutionalized unfairness?
Here I thought it was, "If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart. If you're a conservative at 40, you've sold your heart for a false sense of security." I say this as a 37 year old liberal, who knows, maybe I'll have a change of heart at 40. But I sure hope not.
I've been mugged and I'm still liberal. You don't need to be a Christian to know the value of forgiveness and understanding.
What you are talking about is not clinical depression. It is neurosis. Neurosis is very treatable with talk therapy alone, but is often helped by anti-anxiety medications as well.
I wish the fundies would do what Jesus did. You know, getting hung up on a cross and dying.
Studies of post traumatic stress disorder in WWII pilots back this up. Fighter pilots, who had the highest mortality rate, had the lowest rate of PTSD because they felt like they had more control. Bomber pilots have a lower rate of death, but feel like they have less control than in a maneuverable fighter, and they had a middling level of PTSD. Bomber crews, the safest group, had the highest rate of PTSD because they felt as if they had no control.
Children everywhere are far more concerned about the Monster Under the Bed issue. Four out of five children surveyed would gladly get in a van with anyone who can take care of the MUBs. Don't you claim that jumping from the floor to the bed and vice versa, thus avoiding the deadly 'near-bed zone' does anything. The average MUB has tentacles that are FAR longer than any child can jump. And don't try to tell me the 'hiding under the covers so they can't see you' trick works. MUBs can smell fear, everyone knows that. Just because you can't see them doesn't mean they can't smell you. Please, grown-ups of the world, who will stand up and deal with the MUBs?
People should just mod down anything they don't agree with, especially if it challenges their world view. Rationality is overblown, my gut tells me I'm right.
If I had any mod points, I'd mod you down right now.
Sean Connery? is that you? Yesh, and I DOShed your wife's shite lasht night, Trebeck.
Then it isn't a chemical imbalance. There is a difference between being unhappy and being depressed. I know that many times when I am in the grips of it, I wish I could actually feel unhappy. It's more like a fog, a lead blanket, a loss of engagement with life. A positive attitude could help, but how do you do that? "Just decide to" isn't the answer. Exercising can help, lots of things can help, but how do you decide to do those things, and then actually do them? If you have an answer, I'd love to hear it.
But I've heard people like you all my life. The "Buck up little camper," the "Just snap out of it," the "Oh stop whining," you know you aren't doing it for me. The fact that I am depressed makes you uncomfortable, maybe even challenges your ideas about the self and free will, and you just want me to shut up and go away. You don't really care if I get over it or not. At least that's what most people who talk your talk are actually like, who knows, maybe you are different. But I doubt it.
By not watching ads, you are stealing from the hard working website owners and operators like CmdrTaco here. I mean, due to lack of funds the poor guy has obviously had to hire brain damaged chimpanzees as editors.
;)
I keed, I keed, you guys are great, don't cancel my account please.
a) Spend trillions, ruin our economy, and come up with solutions to a problem we don't know anything about, including whether it actually exists or what's causing it.
b) Spend a few million, help our long-term economy, and come up with useful science to help us make reasonable decisions and along the way come up with theories that may have useful applications in other areas. How do you know that fixing global warming now will ruin our economy? We are talking about reducing waste. That usually means being more efficient and doing more with less. Also, those trillions, who are they going to, and won't that help our economy? I think the economy will change, certainly, but will it die? That's more ludicrous than the silliest kind of global warming predictions Most of the people whining about global warming in the it'll-kill-you-tomorrow camp seem to be politicians, the media, and scientists with expertise in what would happen *if* there is climate change (biologists, etc.), not scientists with expertise in what can cause climate change. Where are you getting that info from? It seems you are just making things up to suit your argument. This is so typical of global warming deniers. You've made up your mind and damn the facts, you'll make up some of those too. You don't want global warming to be true, and you'll make up whatever facts you need to in order to reach that conclusion.