"Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people."
-- Eleanor Roosevelt
Look at the last 4 story posts by soulskill. Looks like the cover of a gossip magazine. Here I am being ironic pointing this out. Guess I need to be angry at myself first, then. I'm just getting older and cranky. I think a lot of us are around here. I stopped putting energy into this system. I'm sorry everyone. I bring this place down too.
I agree with this person's sentiment. It makes me a bad person, but it's at least true. I have found software I wrote with an open source license used with the license stripped. I can't afford an attorney so I use the sour grapes model to get over myself. It works pretty darned good. Lets me get on with life*.
Are you like, 14? Try to escape the gravity of your short sightedness and put some imagination into the invisible world around you.
Yes, yes there's a point, but you aren't privy to it because your imagination is dead and clings limply over you as faux-darkness.
Maybe it costs a lot more than the next cheapest identical solution. Can we find a repose that uses more than black, and white?
If you really are 14, you have no right being uncreative. You seriously need to look beyond yourself for where your creative thoughts could be, and walk the invisible support toward it -- you might be elated when it supports you...
Cause someone sending out spams is equivalent to raping children.
(Actually, most people on the Megan's Law list are folks who got caught peeing behind a bar -- er, exposed themselves to children who live in ally ways.)
I'm probably the person on slashdot who has used linux the longest... yes, redhat goes all the way back to 5.2. I remember learning about NAT when splitting the ethernet with a Y jack didnt get me two internets (i expected a little fade, was all.) Radioshack didnt sell Ethernet signal boosters at the time.
I always get a little upset when someone tells me they are "an expert" at linux, and then tell me they use an old distro full of security holes. A modern ubuntu is going to have way better security because it's new. Further, older linux kernels actually cause damage to the internet with trace levels of malignant packets, from protocols days gone by. http 1.0 is a common example of this, consider the fleets of cloud servers running web 2.0 that have to strain with a hefty http 1.0 connection from a netscrape 4.0 web browser on linux 5.0.
I am glad that threads like this raise awareness... I just hope that some people reading this post realize that, even though they have been a linux user for 25, 30 years, that maybe just maybe they missed a few boats on the way. Most experts are not even running 2.6 kernels yet, which support IPv6 router advertisements. These RAs, as they are called, will configure the new Internet rapidly and I pray linux experts are not left in the dust when they dont get their autoconf info.
I used to be a cynic, but after 12 years I've never seen an ISP cripple their customers like that.
Consider this. There's some duration of time a customer can use technical support for each month before they are no longer profitable. This includes customers calling in to complain.
"so grandpa. it's like this. if you lose your cell phone, it's P-easy to say it's not on the counter, or in the couch. but it's NP-hard to say where they are if you don't remember. what we're trying to figure out is whether we left the phone on, so that we can just dial it up and walk towards the ringing. if it is, then NP-hard is P-easy. if we left it off, then NP-hard means we gotta look everywhere in the house."
I am qualified to comment because I have skimmed the article summary. Furthermore, I know perfectly well that any time a browser allows for new features, it's a way to get hacked by eastern bloc countries. Finally, I can't remember why I was angry in the first place, but I can guarantee you that if whatever it was is also the reason the honeybees have been dying off. I am getting so sick of this stuff!
Enable 17 minute fuzzy time stamp modulator. I'd also like a random "anywhere but here" comment updater for use as an alibi, since facebook updates are now legal evidence.
slashdot could see if you were visiting ebay by exploiting the browser a bit -- they could make an invisible link to ebay, then pass back which color your browser made it. red link means you were there before. i dunno if they fixed this somehow, yet.
Before our time, when our parents were children, the world was at war with itself. Great technologies were developed with significance so broad, the greatest minds of the planet trembled at the wake of their unfolding. Each and every action performed by the simplest individual was a thread sewn into the fabric of this country. Each forward notion was a declaration of intend for a better tomorrow, a promise they made hand in hand that the world they saw on the brink of annihilation would some day be preserved for their children, and their children's children. There was a pride and a hope, and through this there was no time to consider the derivative effects of how we would factor together as a society. How could they have known what was to be? On the edge of destruction their thoughts were of the present.
In the future, their progeny yields the shining beacon of their ultimate savior, prolific technology that has changed everyone's life on the planet. But through this ubiquity the change has become a constant. Our grandparent's hopes and dreams are our faded concrete walkways and crumbling bridges. Our pride is worn with the wind and faded with the sun. Our goals no longer are how to stay alive, but now simply how to stay atop the throne the rest of the world approaches. Our goals, our national fate, our fears as a nation of people. A nation so scattered with opinion that it is a raft adrift the sea, each paddle pushing outwards from the center.
But when you ask the single oarsman how his sons and daughters are, you may find that he has not consigned the fate of his children's knowledge to the government. You may find that he is proud enough to ensure his children learn. The maths, the sciences, the dramas and comedies. The satires so that they too can someday ignore the beating of the drum on a march through the shanty towns of our idyllic past. For this oarsman knows that the success of he and his is not the duty of a corrupt far away bureaucracy, but safe within the confines of the home has has created.
Under a Dual Stack Lite model, the changes are not especially disturbing. This model is the counterpart to 6rd/6to4: instead of tunneling v6 islands together over a native v4 connection, you tunnel v4 over a native v6 connection.
You would need to have a CPE that supports the native v6 connection, so this is of course a disruption. But none of your other lan devices will need reconfiguration. They factored everyone would use the same private network addresses, and that double nat would suck.
So here's how Dual Stack Lite works, with these above gotchas: Your private network addresses go to the ISP, *without nat*. After they get stripped of their v6 wrapper, a "large scale nat [nee carrier grade nat]" will perform a single nat and drop them onto the v4 internet. It can keep track of which 192.168.1.1 is which, by forming a tuple with the v6 address it was delivered on. That's it, that's everything there is to dual stack lite.
There's obviously crappy bits: how do you make your own port forward for application services? hah they dont cover that. answers will range from "too bad" to "sure for 5 bucks a month you can have a port". Another crappy bit is there's 2**16 ports on each ip address. They have guessed how many a customer needs, to get their oversell ratio for a nat IP. Let's put it this way, three kids sharing an ip address hanging out on 4chan and running torrent downloads are going to run out of ports. Their math assumes there's unlikely to be this many power users, but lets the ISPs figure out what their own oversell ratio should be. Obviously we're all starting to share lifeboats at that point and there's going to be complaints.
However it's a pretty good technique that will let your 10 year old v4 crap keep on working. It's not exactly getting kicked around on the drawing board at this point. Comcast paid for the ISC to develop the isp nat machinery, called AFTR. It's open source, cause they want other ISPs to do it, so that CPE manufacturers get on board with it. Cisco/Linksys are hardcore developing it, and Apple is on board too. Flip through the rfc draft for a peek of who is interested.
Factoring in that v4 public addresses will not be available for everyone, I can't see how this model isn't the best one available right now. Especially if the AFTR end allows something like upnp configuration from customers for port reservations. I'd love to hear other people's opinions on what I am wrong.
The route is known. It goes "oh I am native v6 and you're 6to4... i can tell since you are a 2002: address.. i will forward you to the v6 anycast 6to4 relay servers".
When people say 6to4 isn't reliable, it's because an ISP running a 6to4 relay on the known anycast address may chose to not forward for everyone -- they might just forward for their ISP, which violates the spec -- but they can be jerks and do it anyways, dropping the packets.
Car metaphor... hrmm... ok, so the 6to4 spec says "pick up all hitchhikers in your car", and you decide to skip people you don't know. Doesn't work so hot if you pick and choose.
6rd fixes this by not using anycast routing. All the packets are unicast routed. The ISP can call everyone up in the middle and complain if the service sucks. Can't do that on a volunteer routing scheme.
The 6to4 v6 prefix is routed to anycast 6to4 relay servers. it's a stateless protocol so any relay server can forward your packet. so a packet comes in for 2002::16 random bits chosen by you:host and it gets routed to random relay server X, which figures out the destination v4 address from bits 17 to 32, and drops it on the v4 internet. you get the packet a second later, handle it internally, and you're done. and the other way, you have a v6 packet that wants to leave-- a fork in the road: if it's going to another 6to4 peer, it doesnt ever need to go through a relay since you know the v4 destination already. so you just chuck the packet on the net destined for the other 6to4 host. otherwise it's a native v6 destination, you have no idea what to do with it, and forward it to that same relay server, but using its v4 anycast address this time. and it just fowards the packet for you in reverse.
They don't run a flat network on 10/8 where every 10 address is unique in the system. It's trivial to recycle rfc 1918 addresses because their external nat forms a unique tuple.
It's like how more than one company can have an 'extention 10' in their phone network. Public phone number + ext == unique.
They demonstrate how to recycle 1918 addresses in the 6rd spec, which is a pseudo wan connection (a tunnel), simply by flipping a few bits in the prefix -- this is different than the above, since the private (or real) addresses it maps to are externally unique, even though they too have been recycled.
No one really has a clear view of deployment right now. There's a chicken and egg issue between isps and cpe vendors. Each want the other to commit first.. mostly the huge contention point is that cpes dont readily support prefix delegation over dhcpv6, which is how you get your subnet for your side of the connection. we're starting to see it plenty in the open source stuff, and even a few vendors are tacking support for it into their consumer grade gear. it's coming. it'll be mainstream in 12 months to buy a router that supports everything needed to do dual stack. the end goal is dual stack lite, where you have native v6 and nat v4. we'll see that being used for at least another decade, is my guess -- legacy v4 devices have no need to disappear. and all the cool p2p network model stuff can continue on in v6 as it was pre-v4nat.
I probably shouldnt enumerate which support it since i dont know what's nda firmware or not, but i am sitting next to at least 3 routers i am pretty sure you could get at best buy on the way home that support prefix delegation. anyways, end of my rant... nested enough that i dont need to really be very informative:)
Slashdot Mirror
"Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people."
-- Eleanor Roosevelt
Look at the last 4 story posts by soulskill. Looks like the cover of a gossip magazine. Here I am being ironic pointing this out. Guess I need to be angry at myself first, then. I'm just getting older and cranky. I think a lot of us are around here. I stopped putting energy into this system. I'm sorry everyone. I bring this place down too.
would you trade your progeny for a few jollies?
I agree with this person's sentiment. It makes me a bad person, but it's at least true. I have found software I wrote with an open source license used with the license stripped. I can't afford an attorney so I use the sour grapes model to get over myself. It works pretty darned good. Lets me get on with life*.
*: your inevitable life joke is hilarious. har.
oh my gosh that's hilaaaarious. gonna have to steal that one for tonight at the bar, the buddies are gonna shoot beer out their noses!
evolution wise, offspring are the reward. sex is the work.
Are you like, 14? Try to escape the gravity of your short sightedness and put some imagination into the invisible world around you.
Yes, yes there's a point, but you aren't privy to it because your imagination is dead and clings limply over you as faux-darkness.
Maybe it costs a lot more than the next cheapest identical solution. Can we find a repose that uses more than black, and white?
If you really are 14, you have no right being uncreative. You seriously need to look beyond yourself for where your creative thoughts could be, and walk the invisible support toward it -- you might be elated when it supports you...
Cause someone sending out spams is equivalent to raping children.
(Actually, most people on the Megan's Law list are folks who got caught peeing behind a bar -- er, exposed themselves to children who live in ally ways.)
i can live with a 5
I'm probably the person on slashdot who has used linux the longest... yes, redhat goes all the way back to 5.2. I remember learning about NAT when splitting the ethernet with a Y jack didnt get me two internets (i expected a little fade, was all.) Radioshack didnt sell Ethernet signal boosters at the time.
I always get a little upset when someone tells me they are "an expert" at linux, and then tell me they use an old distro full of security holes. A modern ubuntu is going to have way better security because it's new. Further, older linux kernels actually cause damage to the internet with trace levels of malignant packets, from protocols days gone by. http 1.0 is a common example of this, consider the fleets of cloud servers running web 2.0 that have to strain with a hefty http 1.0 connection from a netscrape 4.0 web browser on linux 5.0.
I am glad that threads like this raise awareness ... I just hope that some people reading this post realize that, even though they have been a linux user for 25, 30 years, that maybe just maybe they missed a few boats on the way. Most experts are not even running 2.6 kernels yet, which support IPv6 router advertisements. These RAs, as they are called, will configure the new Internet rapidly and I pray linux experts are not left in the dust when they dont get their autoconf info.
I used to be a cynic, but after 12 years I've never seen an ISP cripple their customers like that.
Consider this. There's some duration of time a customer can use technical support for each month before they are no longer profitable. This includes customers calling in to complain.
ISPs factor these details in.
"so grandpa. it's like this. if you lose your cell phone, it's P-easy to say it's not on the counter, or in the couch. but it's NP-hard to say where they are if you don't remember. what we're trying to figure out is whether we left the phone on, so that we can just dial it up and walk towards the ringing. if it is, then NP-hard is P-easy. if we left it off, then NP-hard means we gotta look everywhere in the house."
that's the funniest thing on here in 9 years.
I am qualified to comment because I have skimmed the article summary. Furthermore, I know perfectly well that any time a browser allows for new features, it's a way to get hacked by eastern bloc countries. Finally, I can't remember why I was angry in the first place, but I can guarantee you that if whatever it was is also the reason the honeybees have been dying off. I am getting so sick of this stuff!
*clicks on your little X icon repeatedly...* WHY WONT YOU DISAPPEAR?!
Enable 17 minute fuzzy time stamp modulator. I'd also like a random "anywhere but here" comment updater for use as an alibi, since facebook updates are now legal evidence.
slashdot could see if you were visiting ebay by exploiting the browser a bit -- they could make an invisible link to ebay, then pass back which color your browser made it. red link means you were there before. i dunno if they fixed this somehow, yet.
it's called a gamechanger cause you dont need an apparatus any longer to control a device.
Before our time, when our parents were children, the world was at war with itself. Great technologies were developed with significance so broad, the greatest minds of the planet trembled at the wake of their unfolding. Each and every action performed by the simplest individual was a thread sewn into the fabric of this country. Each forward notion was a declaration of intend for a better tomorrow, a promise they made hand in hand that the world they saw on the brink of annihilation would some day be preserved for their children, and their children's children. There was a pride and a hope, and through this there was no time to consider the derivative effects of how we would factor together as a society. How could they have known what was to be? On the edge of destruction their thoughts were of the present.
In the future, their progeny yields the shining beacon of their ultimate savior, prolific technology that has changed everyone's life on the planet. But through this ubiquity the change has become a constant. Our grandparent's hopes and dreams are our faded concrete walkways and crumbling bridges. Our pride is worn with the wind and faded with the sun. Our goals no longer are how to stay alive, but now simply how to stay atop the throne the rest of the world approaches. Our goals, our national fate, our fears as a nation of people. A nation so scattered with opinion that it is a raft adrift the sea, each paddle pushing outwards from the center.
But when you ask the single oarsman how his sons and daughters are, you may find that he has not consigned the fate of his children's knowledge to the government. You may find that he is proud enough to ensure his children learn. The maths, the sciences, the dramas and comedies. The satires so that they too can someday ignore the beating of the drum on a march through the shanty towns of our idyllic past. For this oarsman knows that the success of he and his is not the duty of a corrupt far away bureaucracy, but safe within the confines of the home has has created.
Under a Dual Stack Lite model, the changes are not especially disturbing. This model is the counterpart to 6rd/6to4: instead of tunneling v6 islands together over a native v4 connection, you tunnel v4 over a native v6 connection.
You would need to have a CPE that supports the native v6 connection, so this is of course a disruption. But none of your other lan devices will need reconfiguration. They factored everyone would use the same private network addresses, and that double nat would suck.
So here's how Dual Stack Lite works, with these above gotchas: Your private network addresses go to the ISP, *without nat*. After they get stripped of their v6 wrapper, a "large scale nat [nee carrier grade nat]" will perform a single nat and drop them onto the v4 internet. It can keep track of which 192.168.1.1 is which, by forming a tuple with the v6 address it was delivered on. That's it, that's everything there is to dual stack lite.
There's obviously crappy bits: how do you make your own port forward for application services? hah they dont cover that. answers will range from "too bad" to "sure for 5 bucks a month you can have a port". Another crappy bit is there's 2**16 ports on each ip address. They have guessed how many a customer needs, to get their oversell ratio for a nat IP. Let's put it this way, three kids sharing an ip address hanging out on 4chan and running torrent downloads are going to run out of ports. Their math assumes there's unlikely to be this many power users, but lets the ISPs figure out what their own oversell ratio should be. Obviously we're all starting to share lifeboats at that point and there's going to be complaints.
However it's a pretty good technique that will let your 10 year old v4 crap keep on working. It's not exactly getting kicked around on the drawing board at this point. Comcast paid for the ISC to develop the isp nat machinery, called AFTR. It's open source, cause they want other ISPs to do it, so that CPE manufacturers get on board with it. Cisco/Linksys are hardcore developing it, and Apple is on board too. Flip through the rfc draft for a peek of who is interested.
Factoring in that v4 public addresses will not be available for everyone, I can't see how this model isn't the best one available right now. Especially if the AFTR end allows something like upnp configuration from customers for port reservations. I'd love to hear other people's opinions on what I am wrong.
The route is known. It goes "oh I am native v6 and you're 6to4... i can tell since you are a 2002: address.. i will forward you to the v6 anycast 6to4 relay servers".
When people say 6to4 isn't reliable, it's because an ISP running a 6to4 relay on the known anycast address may chose to not forward for everyone -- they might just forward for their ISP, which violates the spec -- but they can be jerks and do it anyways, dropping the packets.
Car metaphor... hrmm... ok, so the 6to4 spec says "pick up all hitchhikers in your car", and you decide to skip people you don't know. Doesn't work so hot if you pick and choose.
6rd fixes this by not using anycast routing. All the packets are unicast routed. The ISP can call everyone up in the middle and complain if the service sucks. Can't do that on a volunteer routing scheme.
The 6to4 v6 prefix is routed to anycast 6to4 relay servers. it's a stateless protocol so any relay server can forward your packet. so a packet comes in for 2002::16 random bits chosen by you:host and it gets routed to random relay server X, which figures out the destination v4 address from bits 17 to 32, and drops it on the v4 internet. you get the packet a second later, handle it internally, and you're done. and the other way, you have a v6 packet that wants to leave-- a fork in the road: if it's going to another 6to4 peer, it doesnt ever need to go through a relay since you know the v4 destination already. so you just chuck the packet on the net destined for the other 6to4 host. otherwise it's a native v6 destination, you have no idea what to do with it, and forward it to that same relay server, but using its v4 anycast address this time. and it just fowards the packet for you in reverse.
they give out a /64, which is an IPv4's space raised to the power of 32.
http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1976240&cid=35075810
looks like i am completely wrong. :D although, they still could do it the way i described. oh well!
They don't run a flat network on 10/8 where every 10 address is unique in the system. It's trivial to recycle rfc 1918 addresses because their external nat forms a unique tuple.
It's like how more than one company can have an 'extention 10' in their phone network. Public phone number + ext == unique.
They demonstrate how to recycle 1918 addresses in the 6rd spec, which is a pseudo wan connection (a tunnel), simply by flipping a few bits in the prefix -- this is different than the above, since the private (or real) addresses it maps to are externally unique, even though they too have been recycled.
No one really has a clear view of deployment right now. There's a chicken and egg issue between isps and cpe vendors. Each want the other to commit first.. mostly the huge contention point is that cpes dont readily support prefix delegation over dhcpv6, which is how you get your subnet for your side of the connection. we're starting to see it plenty in the open source stuff, and even a few vendors are tacking support for it into their consumer grade gear. it's coming. it'll be mainstream in 12 months to buy a router that supports everything needed to do dual stack. the end goal is dual stack lite, where you have native v6 and nat v4. we'll see that being used for at least another decade, is my guess -- legacy v4 devices have no need to disappear. and all the cool p2p network model stuff can continue on in v6 as it was pre-v4nat.
I probably shouldnt enumerate which support it since i dont know what's nda firmware or not, but i am sitting next to at least 3 routers i am pretty sure you could get at best buy on the way home that support prefix delegation. anyways, end of my rant... nested enough that i dont need to really be very informative :)