No they wouldn't, but neither would most systemd users, as this is part of the optional resolved that works with networkd which desktop users normally wouldn't use. It also only happens in an experimental feature in brand new systemd that is not included in any stable distro.
A lot of the noise about systemd is FUD. Blaming systemd is quickly becoming a sign of a poor sysadmin. This DNS issue is a shoot-yourself-in-the-foot bug that you can avoid by not using experimental features. The last uproar about User= was a non-issue as well. If you make a custom service unit and you use the User= directive are you really not going to test that it runs as the correct user?
This is the issue on systemd's github. It actually notes that they are aware of this and downgraded support for libidn2 to experimental.
This issue isn't newsworthy. As others have noted in the comments, underscores are not supposed to be in hostnames (they can be in other DNS RRs) and is about a bug in an experimental feature in a release of systemd that is not in any stable distros. People running rolling distros using the latest versions of everything are going to experience bugs. That's not news.
It's getting more and more difficult to respect the anti-systemd arguments when issues this trivial make headlines. Add to this that many of the arguments raised against systemd are disingenuous or plain ignorant.
I have been using systemd-networkd and systemd-resolved on Debian 9 and so far I like it. It's easy and clear to configure, just like using systemd service units. The integration with systemd-nspawn is very handy. And it introduces new features such as domain name routing.
I agree, Debian stable releases are very high quality. I've been using stretch on a few systems (desktop and non-production server) for a couple of months and there are major improvements all over the place. Excellent work Debian!
Maybe you don't remember, but the original question that I asked was:
What hate are you talking about? I'm asking for real. I do know that Mr Poettering has sometimes reacted negatively, but that's normal for humans that put a bunch of work into something and then get harassed.
But what are you talking about?
Specifically I was asking about examples of piles of hate. It's okay if you want to retract that statement.
As for your technical argmuments:
1. PID1 is critical. Of course it is. Fair enough to say that you think it would have been a better design if more functionality was taken out of PID1. I appreciate you saying that you understand that not everything in systemd is in PID1. However unless this is leading to some epidemic in instability then I don't really see it as more than a minor quibble.
2. There's a lot of UNIX and Linux that doesn't follow the UNIX tools philosophy, including the Linux kernel and several of the GNU utilities. Why does ls have a sort option when there's a sort command? I've often felt that this argument is disingenuous, because while systemd is developed as a single project, it includes dozens of binaries and daemons. FreeBSD is developed as a single project with dozens of binaries and daemons, does that mean it doesn't follow the UNIX philosophy?
3. Your personal preference for Turing complete init scripts is valid. Personally I think the mess of shell scripts that we get with sysvinit as/sbin/init is a mess that is difficult to read and debug. It is also a massive duplication of effort, considering how many init scripts all implement basically the same logic. I'll take a single robust, well tested implementation over scores of bash scripts any day. Also there's nothing stopping anyone from using service units to ExecStart= a shell script.
4, Debian's actually split some of systemd up, at least the systemd-container package. But this is a package maintainer issue, which would be distro dependent. Really though, rebooting's not that big a deal, other packages require reboots too, and systemd updates are not a daily occurrence.
If there were an epidemic of systemd related failures hitting multiple organizations and getting reported on in mainstream press, then I would probably stop using systemd as well. The reality is that the sky hasn't fallen, and almost all of the systemd fail stories I have read follow the theme "i tried it once, couldn't figure out a problem and gave up."
Feel free to use what you want. We got into this discussion because I asked for examples of the piles and piles of hate, which you seem to have wavered on. Best of luck, and I hope you feel a little less hated now:)
That's also not a pile of hate. You could say it's not polite, but the implied message that I pick up on here is that Gentoo will need to implement alternatives to systemd technologies if they want to continue to benefit from other software projects that use systemd.
I apologize for not making it clear enough that my alt-right comparison was not about you, but my overall impression of the resistance to systemd. Maybe the analogy was a little stretched, but there is an element out there elevating the clamour against systemd to conspiracy theory levels of Red Hat pushing their stack on the rest of the community or similar nonsense. Again, that's not about you just what I've seen from others arguing against it.
If you really wished to engage in a technical discussion about this, what I like and what I don't like about systemd, I'd be happy to. However your last paragraph has lumped me as a systemd-hater, and therefore I cannot possibly have technical arguments to make.
That's great, but I didn't see any technical arguments from you. Maybe I missed them. What I did see and responded to was you saying:
> Maybe I take exception to the level of hate directed at the
Maybe because some of us simply prefer not to use systemd, and see piles and piles of hate and derision directed at us. Some of that hatred has come directly from Lennart Poettering, as well.
And then you provided an example of the piles of hate, which amounts to using the term "systemd-haters" and giving a heads up to colleagues of some changes down the road. Also it's you who is saying that a hater cannot possibly have technical arguments to make, not me. If you would like to argue technical merits, I do have another comment in this very thread on that very topic.
Anyways, I hope you're not too upset, and I do encourage you to give systemd another try if only because of how prevalent it has become. Maybe you'll find something to like about it, who knows?
I'm sorry but citing Mr. Poettering's use of the term "systemd-haters" is a little thin as evidence of piles of hate directed towards systemd opponents. Especially with the context that he has frequently been the target of harassment for his work. Best choice of words? Perhaps not, but certainly not indicative of piles of hate.
Perhaps you need to re-calibrate your hate sensors here... or maybe you've somehow missed out on the vitriol that's been directed at him and his fellow developers.
I'm not trying to say here that Mr. Poettering's behaviour is always the best. He's a person with faults just like the rest of us, and I honestly don't know how I would handle the amount of hate that he does. Probably badly. But referring to systemd opponents as systemd-haters is a far cry from piles of hate.
Please don't take this personally, I don't anything about you as an individual, but in the aggregate I've really started to see the opposition to systemd as analogous to the alt-right. Both seem to be emotionally driven, fact resistant, knee-jerk reaction against progress, ardent defenders of an systems many of them don't truly understand, opposed to changes that would actually benefit them if they took a moment away from their ideological perceptions.
See for example systemd.exec(5) for a list of directives that can be used in service and some other unit files.
With some simple directives in unit files (which are simple INI style data files, not scripts) you can access some powerful features, for example ReadOnlyPaths, PrivateNetwork, PrivateUsers, ProtectHome.
systemd also brings instantiated services, socket activation, a simple cgroups interface. Want to limit CPU for a running service, or for everything currently running for a user without restarting any processes? "systemctl set-property" can be used for both because of the way cgroups are abstracted. There's even a simple native container system that's integrated with systemctl and journalctl so you can use -M $CONTAINER to control or view logs for that container, or "-m" to see all logs for host and container.
It's not just that systemd can do these things, but that it does them in a way that is easy to understand. Unit files are clear and easy to read compared to what you'd need to do in an init script to accomplish things that systemd can do with simple directives.
journald/journalctl is also a pretty radical improvement once you start to use it, and on Debian journald is used to supplement syslog not replace it, so the text log files are still there.
If you haven't experienced any of these improvements, go check them out! Seriously give systemd another try if you haven't used it recently. It's not perfect, but it's a powerful tool and in retrospect will probably be recognized as the most important improvement since dependency resolution in package managers IMHO at least.
What hate are you talking about? I'm asking for real. I do know that Mr Poettering has sometimes reacted negatively, but that's normal for humans that put a bunch of work into something and then get harassed.
I don't see how this is modded as flamebait, except that this community has a pretty obvious anti-systemd bias. Mr McGonigle was pointing out the hyperbole used by the vocal systemd opponents.
My own anecdotal systemd experience has been positive, on desktops and servers. It is a major improvement over sysvinit, and many of the improvements make it a lot easier to admin a server.
For some reason I only ever use my/. account to comment on systemd stories. Maybe I take exception to the level of hate directed at the members of the "community" for the work that they've done. If you see this Lennary Poettering, thank you for all your contributions! Ignore the haters, systemd is great and people don't have to use it if they don't like it.
I've noticed the guys working for me just can't grasp the concept of this:
systemctl start openvpn@server.service
That is an example of instantiated services which are a pretty handy feature.systemd.unit(5) documents this feature. If your 'guys' aren't into reading manuals for the tools they use, it's not that hard to figure out what's going on just reading the openvpn@.service file.
We use four different Linux distributions and six other UNIXes, so that small inconsistency turns into a big thing.
systemd is becoming standard, so there will be *fewer* inconsistencies between distros. One of the biggest drivers behind all the systemd hate seems to be resistance to learning new things, which is a shame because systemd is actually pretty cool.
How is it that nobody has brought up that Debian still has sysvinit available, including for the upcoming Debian 9 "stretch".The release notes for Debian 8 "Jessie" included instructions for how to stick with sysvinit if you didn't want systemd. That was two years ago, and sysvinit is still an option in Debian today.
Do "init freedom lovers" include people that like systemd? It seems to me that Debian gives you that freedom, and Devuan takes it away so that you cannot choose systemd.
There are valid criticisms of systemd. I understand that some people who have tried it don't like it. That's fine, people can and should use what they want. However I often doubt that systemd haters have really given it a chance, bothered to learn the new technology at all, or explored the new things that are possible and easy with systemd.
Personally I think systemd is the best thing on GNU/Linux since package managers with dependency resolution.
I agree and strongly prefer using systemd unit files to init scripts. Also the place to put your local unit files is/etc/systemd/system according to systemd.unit(5)./lib/systemd/system is for units provided by packages.
But couldn't he sue because he is a customer? The company sold him a device that includes software for which the license is GPL, but is not respecting his rights under the GPL.
The rights that the GPL grants are primarily to the user, are they not?
I would mod you up for this but I don't get points anymore.
Thank you for calling the telcos robber barons, that is exactly what they are. Net neutrality isn't about government regulation, it's about not ceding power to regulate the internet to corporations.
If the government cannot be trusted to regulate the internet, how can we possibly trust a handful of corporate giants? It's ridiculous to argue that the interests of the telcos are in line with the interests of everybody else.
A free internet is just as important as a free market. Without net neutrality, innovation on the internet will be crippled once only the incumbent giants can afford to pay premium for the fast lane.
I'm no fan of big government, but I cannot understand why so many advocates of small government are not also afraid of the big business trampling all over their rights and freedoms. The reality is that the Fortune 500 are integral part of how the world is "governed", whether they fall under the category of government or not. Where is the Tea Bagger uprising against the corporate establishment?
It's worth nothing that you cannot run arbitrary code on a Tivo because they use DRM to prevent unsigned kernels from being loaded. "Tivo-ization" was a primary motivation for the FSF to write the GPL3.
Myself, I don't understand why some people draw the line for software freedom at embedded systems. I can understand it if most people would want to use the ROM that came with their phone/media player/ebook reader/DVR unaltered. But we should have the right to do whatever we want with our devices.
The Openmoko community is a breeding ground for mobile Linux distros and and the FSO middleware. FSO and these distros, like SHR, Hackable:1, QtMoko will eventually be ported to other devices. That's one reason why Openmoko is still relevant. The work being done on Freerunners now will eventually result in being able to replace the proprietary parts of the Pre or the n900 with all Free software, or potentially replace the OS on an Android phone with a Linux distro that runs a X.org server.
The people using and developing for the Openmoko phones are very familiar with its faults. They use the phone and develop for it because the Freerunner is the most open handset available. It's a labour of love, and there are a lot of folks in the community that are very committed to Free Software.
If nothing else, Openmoko gave a bunch of nerds a crack at creating their own mobile operating system. It had the potential (and maybe still does through FSO and SHR) to enable the kind of built in the garage innovation that brought about companies like HP and Apple. That's a bit of a long shot, but a lot of great work has come out of the Openmoko community and things are still moving along.
I'm pretty sure that 90% of/. is somewhere on the aspergers syndrome. 74 comments when I loaded the page, and I had to scroll down the last 10 or so to read any that weren't about the reviewer's choice in pronouns.
Except that you'll be paying the same monthly rates as customers who did get a subsidized phone from their carrier. That's not fair. Those of us who buy their own phones should get lower rates.
When I brought my Openmoko Neo Freerunner to Fido (in Canada), it was actually cheaper to get a Nokia feature phone than to just get a SIM card.
Are you sure about that? From the quick facts side-bar on the CPIC overview page:
The Automated Canada United States Police Information Exchange System (ACUPIES) provides CPIC users a link to the U.S. National Crime Information Centre data banks, and all U.S. users access to the CPIC files. Currently, this link is processing over 12 million transactions per year.
Wikipedia links to a reference that claims that the "wandering persons" database (for tracking alzheimers patients) is not shared with the US. So they don't get complete access, but they can access CPIC.
Actually, police records are shared between Canada and the US. The police keep a file on you if they've ever spoken to you (and taken your name, birthday and address) whether you're actually in trouble or just a witness. American police have access to those files. If a Canadian is pulled over by the police in the US, the US police officer will see their Canadian police file when they do their check.
Slashdot Mirror
No they wouldn't, but neither would most systemd users, as this is part of the optional resolved that works with networkd which desktop users normally wouldn't use. It also only happens in an experimental feature in brand new systemd that is not included in any stable distro.
A lot of the noise about systemd is FUD. Blaming systemd is quickly becoming a sign of a poor sysadmin. This DNS issue is a shoot-yourself-in-the-foot bug that you can avoid by not using experimental features. The last uproar about User= was a non-issue as well. If you make a custom service unit and you use the User= directive are you really not going to test that it runs as the correct user?
This is the issue on systemd's github. It actually notes that they are aware of this and downgraded support for libidn2 to experimental.
This issue isn't newsworthy. As others have noted in the comments, underscores are not supposed to be in hostnames (they can be in other DNS RRs) and is about a bug in an experimental feature in a release of systemd that is not in any stable distros. People running rolling distros using the latest versions of everything are going to experience bugs. That's not news.
It's getting more and more difficult to respect the anti-systemd arguments when issues this trivial make headlines. Add to this that many of the arguments raised against systemd are disingenuous or plain ignorant.
I have been using systemd-networkd and systemd-resolved on Debian 9 and so far I like it. It's easy and clear to configure, just like using systemd service units. The integration with systemd-nspawn is very handy. And it introduces new features such as domain name routing.
RFC2181 is talking about DNS resource records in general. There are further restrictions on A and AAAA records, discussed in RFC1123 and RFC952.
rfc2782 is about SRV resource records. We're talking about A and AAAA resource records.
I agree, Debian stable releases are very high quality. I've been using stretch on a few systems (desktop and non-production server) for a couple of months and there are major improvements all over the place. Excellent work Debian!
If only all online debates could wrap up so cordially. It was a pleasure :)
Maybe you don't remember, but the original question that I asked was:
Specifically I was asking about examples of piles of hate. It's okay if you want to retract that statement.
As for your technical argmuments:
If there were an epidemic of systemd related failures hitting multiple organizations and getting reported on in mainstream press, then I would probably stop using systemd as well. The reality is that the sky hasn't fallen, and almost all of the systemd fail stories I have read follow the theme "i tried it once, couldn't figure out a problem and gave up."
Feel free to use what you want. We got into this discussion because I asked for examples of the piles and piles of hate, which you seem to have wavered on. Best of luck, and I hope you feel a little less hated now :)
That's also not a pile of hate. You could say it's not polite, but the implied message that I pick up on here is that Gentoo will need to implement alternatives to systemd technologies if they want to continue to benefit from other software projects that use systemd.
I apologize for not making it clear enough that my alt-right comparison was not about you, but my overall impression of the resistance to systemd. Maybe the analogy was a little stretched, but there is an element out there elevating the clamour against systemd to conspiracy theory levels of Red Hat pushing their stack on the rest of the community or similar nonsense. Again, that's not about you just what I've seen from others arguing against it.
That's great, but I didn't see any technical arguments from you. Maybe I missed them. What I did see and responded to was you saying:
And then you provided an example of the piles of hate, which amounts to using the term "systemd-haters" and giving a heads up to colleagues of some changes down the road. Also it's you who is saying that a hater cannot possibly have technical arguments to make, not me. If you would like to argue technical merits, I do have another comment in this very thread on that very topic.
Anyways, I hope you're not too upset, and I do encourage you to give systemd another try if only because of how prevalent it has become. Maybe you'll find something to like about it, who knows?
I'm sorry but citing Mr. Poettering's use of the term "systemd-haters" is a little thin as evidence of piles of hate directed towards systemd opponents. Especially with the context that he has frequently been the target of harassment for his work. Best choice of words? Perhaps not, but certainly not indicative of piles of hate.
Perhaps you need to re-calibrate your hate sensors here... or maybe you've somehow missed out on the vitriol that's been directed at him and his fellow developers.
I'm not trying to say here that Mr. Poettering's behaviour is always the best. He's a person with faults just like the rest of us, and I honestly don't know how I would handle the amount of hate that he does. Probably badly. But referring to systemd opponents as systemd-haters is a far cry from piles of hate.
Please don't take this personally, I don't anything about you as an individual, but in the aggregate I've really started to see the opposition to systemd as analogous to the alt-right. Both seem to be emotionally driven, fact resistant, knee-jerk reaction against progress, ardent defenders of an systems many of them don't truly understand, opposed to changes that would actually benefit them if they took a moment away from their ideological perceptions.
See for example systemd.exec(5) for a list of directives that can be used in service and some other unit files.
With some simple directives in unit files (which are simple INI style data files, not scripts) you can access some powerful features, for example ReadOnlyPaths, PrivateNetwork, PrivateUsers, ProtectHome.
systemd also brings instantiated services, socket activation, a simple cgroups interface. Want to limit CPU for a running service, or for everything currently running for a user without restarting any processes? "systemctl set-property" can be used for both because of the way cgroups are abstracted. There's even a simple native container system that's integrated with systemctl and journalctl so you can use -M $CONTAINER to control or view logs for that container, or "-m" to see all logs for host and container.
It's not just that systemd can do these things, but that it does them in a way that is easy to understand. Unit files are clear and easy to read compared to what you'd need to do in an init script to accomplish things that systemd can do with simple directives.
journald/journalctl is also a pretty radical improvement once you start to use it, and on Debian journald is used to supplement syslog not replace it, so the text log files are still there.
If you haven't experienced any of these improvements, go check them out! Seriously give systemd another try if you haven't used it recently. It's not perfect, but it's a powerful tool and in retrospect will probably be recognized as the most important improvement since dependency resolution in package managers IMHO at least.
What hate are you talking about? I'm asking for real. I do know that Mr Poettering has sometimes reacted negatively, but that's normal for humans that put a bunch of work into something and then get harassed.
But what are you talking about?
I don't see how this is modded as flamebait, except that this community has a pretty obvious anti-systemd bias. Mr McGonigle was pointing out the hyperbole used by the vocal systemd opponents.
/. account to comment on systemd stories. Maybe I take exception to the level of hate directed at the members of the "community" for the work that they've done. If you see this Lennary Poettering, thank you for all your contributions! Ignore the haters, systemd is great and people don't have to use it if they don't like it.
My own anecdotal systemd experience has been positive, on desktops and servers. It is a major improvement over sysvinit, and many of the improvements make it a lot easier to admin a server.
For some reason I only ever use my
Obviously you're a troll, but that is a fucked up thing to say. A man is dead, have some respect.
That is an example of instantiated services which are a pretty handy feature.systemd.unit(5) documents this feature. If your 'guys' aren't into reading manuals for the tools they use, it's not that hard to figure out what's going on just reading the openvpn@.service file.
systemd is becoming standard, so there will be *fewer* inconsistencies between distros. One of the biggest drivers behind all the systemd hate seems to be resistance to learning new things, which is a shame because systemd is actually pretty cool.
How is it that nobody has brought up that Debian still has sysvinit available, including for the upcoming Debian 9 "stretch".The release notes for Debian 8 "Jessie" included instructions for how to stick with sysvinit if you didn't want systemd. That was two years ago, and sysvinit is still an option in Debian today.
Do "init freedom lovers" include people that like systemd? It seems to me that Debian gives you that freedom, and Devuan takes it away so that you cannot choose systemd.
There are valid criticisms of systemd. I understand that some people who have tried it don't like it. That's fine, people can and should use what they want. However I often doubt that systemd haters have really given it a chance, bothered to learn the new technology at all, or explored the new things that are possible and easy with systemd.
Personally I think systemd is the best thing on GNU/Linux since package managers with dependency resolution.
I agree and strongly prefer using systemd unit files to init scripts. Also the place to put your local unit files is /etc/systemd/system according to systemd.unit(5). /lib/systemd/system is for units provided by packages.
But couldn't he sue because he is a customer? The company sold him a device that includes software for which the license is GPL, but is not respecting his rights under the GPL. The rights that the GPL grants are primarily to the user, are they not?
RIght on!
I would mod you up for this but I don't get points anymore.
Thank you for calling the telcos robber barons, that is exactly what they are. Net neutrality isn't about government regulation, it's about not ceding power to regulate the internet to corporations.
If the government cannot be trusted to regulate the internet, how can we possibly trust a handful of corporate giants? It's ridiculous to argue that the interests of the telcos are in line with the interests of everybody else.
A free internet is just as important as a free market. Without net neutrality, innovation on the internet will be crippled once only the incumbent giants can afford to pay premium for the fast lane.
I'm no fan of big government, but I cannot understand why so many advocates of small government are not also afraid of the big business trampling all over their rights and freedoms. The reality is that the Fortune 500 are integral part of how the world is "governed", whether they fall under the category of government or not. Where is the Tea Bagger uprising against the corporate establishment?
It's worth nothing that you cannot run arbitrary code on a Tivo because they use DRM to prevent unsigned kernels from being loaded. "Tivo-ization" was a primary motivation for the FSF to write the GPL3.
Myself, I don't understand why some people draw the line for software freedom at embedded systems. I can understand it if most people would want to use the ROM that came with their phone/media player/ebook reader/DVR unaltered. But we should have the right to do whatever we want with our devices.
The Openmoko community is a breeding ground for mobile Linux distros and and the FSO middleware. FSO and these distros, like SHR, Hackable:1, QtMoko will eventually be ported to other devices. That's one reason why Openmoko is still relevant. The work being done on Freerunners now will eventually result in being able to replace the proprietary parts of the Pre or the n900 with all Free software, or potentially replace the OS on an Android phone with a Linux distro that runs a X.org server.
The people using and developing for the Openmoko phones are very familiar with its faults. They use the phone and develop for it because the Freerunner is the most open handset available. It's a labour of love, and there are a lot of folks in the community that are very committed to Free Software.
If nothing else, Openmoko gave a bunch of nerds a crack at creating their own mobile operating system. It had the potential (and maybe still does through FSO and SHR) to enable the kind of built in the garage innovation that brought about companies like HP and Apple. That's a bit of a long shot, but a lot of great work has come out of the Openmoko community and things are still moving along.
I'm pretty sure that 90% of /. is somewhere on the aspergers syndrome. 74 comments when I loaded the page, and I had to scroll down the last 10 or so to read any that weren't about the reviewer's choice in pronouns.
Except that you'll be paying the same monthly rates as customers who did get a subsidized phone from their carrier. That's not fair. Those of us who buy their own phones should get lower rates. When I brought my Openmoko Neo Freerunner to Fido (in Canada), it was actually cheaper to get a Nokia feature phone than to just get a SIM card.
Are you sure about that? From the quick facts side-bar on the CPIC overview page:
Wikipedia links to a reference that claims that the "wandering persons" database (for tracking alzheimers patients) is not shared with the US. So they don't get complete access, but they can access CPIC.
Actually, police records are shared between Canada and the US. The police keep a file on you if they've ever spoken to you (and taken your name, birthday and address) whether you're actually in trouble or just a witness. American police have access to those files. If a Canadian is pulled over by the police in the US, the US police officer will see their Canadian police file when they do their check.