Canadian Android Carrier Forcing Firmware Update

Wolfier writes "For wireless carrier Rogers in Canada, it seems that 'Customer Safety' only becomes a concern after months of neglect. Rogers is the only GSM carrier in Canada and so the only choice for Android users. Months ago, a customer called Rogers to report a firmware bug that was preventing users from making 911 calls under certain circumstances, and informed the carrier that Google had fixed the bug (recording of that call). But Rogers is only doing something about it now — namely, cutting data access of paying customers until they accept a mandatory firmware upgrade that not only fixes the 911 problem, but also contains 'extra' features that prevent users from ever gaining root access to their phones — even non-subsidized ones. And some phones are also getting bricked by this 'official' update. The moral: we really need to open up the competition here up North."

Comments

GSM Providers

[Denis Lemire]

Rogers is no longer the only GSM carrier. At the end of '09 Telus and Bell launched their own GSM networks. So counting Fido (owned by Rogers) there are now four Canadian GSM based carriers.

Re:GSM Providers

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, that number goes way up because Telus and Bell were added to the mix.

Bell owns Solo and Virgin while Telus is supposed to be the owner of Koodoo.

Re:GSM Providers

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong.

Bellus deployed their HSPDA network for 3G, which works across all 3G enabled phones. They still each maintain a CDMA network for regular service.

I couldn't take a Bell or Telus Blackberry and expect to use it on Rogers unless I used their HSPDA network.

Re:GSM Providers

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot Wind Mobile, and Dave Wireless

Re:GSM Providers

[Jonavin]

If you're going to count Fido as separate network (really a MVNO), then you might as well count Koodo , Solo and Virgin Canada as well. And technically Bell and Telus and their MVNO doesn't have a 2G GSM network, just a 3G UMTS/HSPA network.

You'll also need to include WIND Mobile too if you're counting 3G networks. Although they currently don't carry any Android devices, they are the only ones with T-Mobile US devices and Nexus One users (imported from US).

Out of all these, only Rogers (Dream/Magic/LG) and Telus (Hero) are carrying Android devices. The other networks are all capable of using imported devices by activating SIM accounts.

Re:GSM Providers

[Denis Lemire]

Of course they still maintain their CDMA networks. It's not like they were going to pull the plug on all their existing clients in order to upgrade to GSM. A modern unlocked GSM phone will work just as well on Rogers/Tell/Bell now (assuming you could find such a thing). ie) The iPhone runs on Telus and Bell, let's not pretend Apple made a CDMA version just for Telus and Bell.

Your point stands that a CDMA based Telus or Bell Blackberry (as per your example) purchased prior to their new deployment will not work with Rogers but their legacy gear is irrelevant to this discussion, no?

Re:GSM Providers

[anethema]

Just to expand on what the AC said, most notably Wind Mobile is expanding in a few markets and all the newcomers are in the AWS band, which is the same as T-Mobile in the USA.

While Wind does not yet offer any of their own Android phones, there have been reports of people with Nexus One's etc working fine on their network.

Re:GSM Providers

[Jonavin]

Can't really count DAVE until they launch and that's not even their brand that they plan to use.

Re:GSM Providers

[Nermal6693]

A GSM-only phone will not work on Telus/Bell. The new network is WCDMA/UMTS-based and does not have a 2G GSM component.

Re:GSM Providers

[ChodaBoy]

However, the Dream and Magic are both 3G phones and therefore work with Bellus' HSPDA network. I know this because I'm currently using an HTC Dream from Rogers on Telus. I broke my contract with Rogers a couple months ago because the Edge coverage Rogers has in my home town does not perform as advertised and they have no current plans to upgrade to 3G here

That's no problem here since Telus' 3G+ coverage is better than Rogers' Edge.

Re:GSM Providers

[ChodaBoy]

Wind is only available in Metropolitan areas in the east right now so it's not an option for any of us in the west. At least not yet.

Re:GSM Providers

[litui]

As long as the 3G phones support the correct frequencies, they will work on both networks.

Telus: 850/1900Mhz
Rogers: 850/1900Mhz
Wind: 1700Mhz

So between Telus and Rogers 3G will be compatible, but phones that also support EDGE and GPRS will not work on Telus in those modes as they lack the legacy infrastructure.

Re:GSM Providers

[Adambomb]

Note: The networks you're mentioning from Telus and Bell are UMTS only, with no 2G GSM support at all. Won't matter in 5-10 years, but just a heads up.

The problem people don't really seem to get about mobile pricing and "competition" in Canada is that it really is a system with only two sides Rogers and Telus/Bell. Telus and Bell themselves barely compete as their pricing structures are nearly identical beyond minor differences, which makes sense given their Network Sharing Agreements.

Fido is effectively the WestJet of our carriers, cherry picking the majority of their clients within high population density areas, which did make them a competitor within the major cities and a large portion of the market until about 2004 when they became wholly owned by Rogers.

Some people may mentioned the MVNO's Koodo and SOLO Mobile not realizing that Koodo is effectively a slightly lower margin Telus, and Solo Mobile is Bell (down to the same exact 'customer service' tools, except I believe Solo CSSR's are primarily through Canadian based subcontractors only).

Given these details, you see we have effectively two sides only. Two sides which somehow magically conviced everyone in the country that it makes sense for them to have doubled the price (two-sided billing) of per usage SMS's from 15c to 30c a piece. Two sides that maintain suspiciously close pricing that tends to vary only by small amounts for specific cases. Two sides that maintain a consistent CHURN back and forth between the two sets of groups generating Long Term Contract Charges and a variety of fine print charges so that when One is considered the evil, users switch to the other (with similar THEY ARE THE WORST rants concerning the business model in either case, rogers OR bell). The only reason it works is that the worst things only happen to a low enough percentage for each carrier that after they ragequit and go to the other side, its unlikely for it to happen again to the same person (post 90 day billing errors that are considered valid so long as client wasnt able to ask the right question to a CSSR before the 90 days was up thanks to the Consumer Protection Act [HAH], defective merchandise that is considered not covered under warranty but still generated a contract with a valid LTCC charge if cancelled [*cough*AUDIOVOX*cough*], etc).

The long and short of it is Telco companies have us by the short hairs up here in Canada. Heres hoping WIND Mobile takes off, but given that they only launched in friggan December, i cant have an opinion quite yet.

Re:GSM Providers

[samurphy21]

Agreed. If the issue was that you can only get an Android phone via Rogers, then

http://www.telusmobility.com/en/NS/htc_hero/index.shtml

http://www.bell.ca/shopping/en_CA_ON.Samsung-Galaxywith-Google/69236.details

There's at least two other nation wide carriers looking to do business with you, right now. Ones who have proper coverage in Eastern Canada, unlike Rogers, in many non-metro areas.

Re:GSM Providers

[Some1too]

I couldn't have said it better. Hopefully with the recently opened new market/competition we'll begin to see some short term changes. I've worked in the industry and still have several friends in both of the large carriers. I'm still mad at Bell for their throttling; I was hoping for a stronger response from our government (and people) regarding the issue. Cheers,

Re:GSM Providers

[anethema]

Actually they will work fine, just not in EDGE mode.

Re:GSM Providers

[litui]

"will not work on Telus in those modes"

2g = won't work. 3g = will.

Agreed!

Re:GSM Providers

[Jon.Laslow]

Fair enough - we're both in an area with very robust 3G coverage from both networks, so there really hasn't been any chance to test out Edge. When I run in to him next, I'll ask him to disable 3G and we'll watch the magic!

Re:GSM Providers

[jpmorgan]

Wind is available in Calgary.

Re:GSM Providers

[Anonymous Coward]

There should be only 1 service available and that should be run by the Canadian government just like our healthcare is.

Re:GSM Providers

[Anonymous Coward]

so is cow poop.

Re:GSM Providers

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually Bell has the Samsung Galaxy also, which is an Android device.

Re:GSM Providers

[Anonymous Coward]

In the West? You mean like Hamilton?

Re:GSM Providers

[LikwidCirkel]

WIND is launching in Ottawa, Edmonton, and I believe Vancouver by the end of this March. I just got a cheap used HTC Dream, and I can't wait for WIND.

Re:GSM Providers

[da_guy2]

Actually if you include the new WIND mobile that's 5.

Re:GSM Providers

[c]

> Rogers is no longer the only GSM carrier. At the end
> of '09 Telus and Bell launched their own GSM networks.
> So counting Fido (owned by Rogers) there are now four
> Canadian GSM based carriers.

Plenty of choice, Canadian telecom style.

Now, instead of having to share my cell with a burly psychotic rapist axe murderer, I can choose from four of them. If I'm lucky I'll pick the one who uses the most lube...

I'll just stick with a dumb voice-only phone until someone beats some competition into these assholes.

c.

Re:GSM Providers

[axis_omega]

Wow this is great news ! Oh but wait, the fees will probably go down now. Yeah now that Bell has entered the market, I will see a tremendous price drop.
Bell has been there with Fido for a long time now. They have similar price plan. They have no incentive to lower any price. Competition is non existent
when companies agree to keep fees high.

"The Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development says Canadian cellphone rates are the third-highest amongst surveyed countries, behind the United States and Spain."
from here http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090811/090811_cell_fees/20090811/?hub=CP24Morning

And there is competition coming here but if you look at what the CEO says : "Price is not the way to differentiate yourself in the marketplace," said president Dave Dobbin. "It's about value. It's about being simple."
from here http://ca.news.finance.yahoo.com/s/28122009/2/biz-finance-consumers-rogers-bell-telus-new-wireless-companies.html

As long as consumers are willing to giveaway 55 dollar a month for a phone they will have a price gadget that matches the market.

Re:GSM Providers

[Anonymous Coward]

I cannot aggree more.. GSM carrier in canada is a mafia cartel !

Re:GSM Providers

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, it's only available in Toronto and Calgary.

Re:GSM Providers

[jseale]

As long as the 3G phones support the correct frequencies, they will work on both networks.

Telus: 850/1900Mhz Rogers: 850/1900Mhz Wind: 1700Mhz

So between Telus and Rogers 3G will be compatible, but phones that also support EDGE and GPRS will not work on Telus in those modes as they lack the legacy infrastructure.

Wind, never heard of that one down here in the US. Very much educated on the other two though. Is Wind an MVNO or something?

Re:GSM Providers

[jseale]

Is that one equivalent to Samsung's Behold offered by T-Mobile here in the States?

Re:GSM Providers

[Gravitron 5000]

I'm sorry DAVE. I can't allow you to launch that.

Rogers is terrible

[Merritt.kr]

I run CyanogenMod on my Rogers HTC Dream, and it has apparently had the fix for this issue for 5+ months. Yet I am still cut off from data access, they keep insisting I install their update.

Re:Rogers is terrible

[Anonymous Coward]

Call them and threaten them with lodging a CRTC complaint and small claims dispute if they don't comply. Tell the CRTC now.

Re:Rogers is terrible

[Anonymous Coward]

Call Technical Support (not the regular csr's) and ask for a Network Refresh. Turn your phone off and on, and you're good to go.

Re:Rogers is terrible

[Anonymous Coward]

call support and ask for a 'network refresh', they'll forward you to a higher level technician that can do that, reboot your phone shortly afterwards & you're good

Re:Rogers is terrible

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not saying that you shouldn't do this, but the CRTC itself is a sad state of affairs. Full of corrupt members at the Telco's beck and call. For sure we should keep filing complaints, but my hopes that anything will be done about it are nil.

Re:Rogers is terrible

[Anonymous Coward]

Pull the battery out!

Re:Rogers is terrible

[Jester998]

I run Cyanogen on my Dream as well, but I got around the data blockage like so:

If you were quick enough to take advantage of the free HTC Magic upgrade they offered, you can just root the Magic and install CursorSense (at least 1.2.1). CursorSense is a mod of the official Rogers firmware, so as far as Rogers is concerned, you have a 'patched' phone, so they re-enable data access on your account. At that point you can switch back to your Dream with full 3G access.

I was without data for about a day (my Magic only arrived Monday, a day after they started blocking data), but since then I've been fine.

Rogers can take their mandatory upgrade and shove it. :p

Re:Rogers is terrible

[Anonymous Coward]

I callled them, said I had installed the update. They asked me to verify the build number, which I read back to the guy from the screenshot in the update documentation, and they turned my data back on. The hardest part was the time spent on hold.

Re:Rogers is terrible

[L4t3r4lu5]

Stop paying your bill. Hire a solicitor.

Re:Rogers is terrible

[Zro Point Two]

Must have been nice.

I decided to jump through hoops and update my Dream that I haven't used in over 2 months, and even that was only for a day or two...and it was months prior to that that I had used it.

But I accidentally made the mistake of putting my SIM card in it to verify that it worked....I updated the phone, switched the SIM back to my Nexus One and went on my merry way. 2 hours later, no data. So I called and was told that the data was not turned off on my account. Thinking it was a bug in my Nexus on Rogers, I accepted that. Put the SIM back in the Dream, still no data. Talked to the Live Support person who then confirmed that it was disabled and then said there was nothing they could do.

So now I'm stuck with no data for the night. The worst part is that the guy was very condescending to me and that the other CSR lied to me when he said my data wasn't turned off.

And of course the Retention person that I talked to thought he was doing me an amazing favor by offering me a month credit on my data package....right at the top of the instructions says that it will be automatically given...yea, that's really a huge favor.

So, if you're not using your Dream and decide to update, don't put the SIM in...or if you want to use your Dream/Magic but haven't for a while, update first, then put your SIM card in. Hopefully you can avoid what I went through.

Uhm, I thought it was open?

[BitZtream]

I thought the one of the battle cries that Android fanboys wave at the iPhone fanboys was that it was open and you weren't locked into running what the provider wanted, you had root on your own device and they can't take it away ... Turns out they can force remote updates and lockout root?

Gonna be lots of pissed off fanboys, this should be a nice calm discussion ...

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[MorderVonAllem]

According to the summary they're not remote updating but cutting off access if you don't update the firmware - a bit different. Though I didn't RTFA as it's just a forum...

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[BitZtream]

Yea, I'm a douche, I didn't even read the entire summary apparently.

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[calmofthestorm]

Google is to Apple as Rogers is to AT&T here; this is the carrier being evil. On the iPhone it's both. Of course, you can just jailbreak your iPhone so I don't see a huge difference either way.

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[CNeb96]

I thought the one of the battle cries that Android fanboys wave at the iPhone fanboys was that it was open and you weren't locked into running what the provider wanted, you had root on your own device and they can't take it away ... Turns out they can force remote updates and lockout root?

Gonna be lots of pissed off fanboys, this should be a nice calm discussion ...

No the battle cry was that you could install any userland app you wanted without asking anyone's permission like Apple's app store but that app would still need to conform to the android API for apps, which AFAIK is java like and doesn't give the app any low level access. The fact that it runs on Linux is near irrelevant to users (since they don't give you or apps native access) but I suppose it would make it easier to port the whole OS to new hardware platforms.

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[gbelteshazzar]

a bit different? only if you dont use your phone as a phone.

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[Thinboy00]

Android doesn't come with root. It comes with the ability to install your own apps without having to jump through some lame "app store" or other technical/political hoops.

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[adbge]

It's the difference between all iPhones being locked and some Android phones being locked by Rogers.

Or:
ALL ELEPHANTS ARE NAMED PHIL, ERGO EVERY PHIL IS AN ELEPHANT.

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[smash]

i'd rather have a remote update, than end up with a phone that doesn't make/receive phone calls and fulfil the operational requirements sold to me on the spec sheet.

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[Heretic2]

You just have to fake your Android version to appear to be the version they're looking for. If you look through the forum threads linked in the story the exact method is there. I will put it here for convenience:

adb shell reboot recovery
***Wait for Magic to boot into recovery***
adb shell mount -a
adb shell
cd system
ls
***look for your build file, will be build.prop or build.sapphire.prop most likely***
CTRL-D ***to quit the shell***
adb pull /system/build.prop ***or whatever it was called***
***make a backup copy and edit the file***
adb push build.prop /system/build.prop
adb shell reboot

The actual changes you need to make to the file are:

ro.build.description=3.05.631.7 CL#118917 release-keys
ro.build.changelist=118917
ro.product.ua=
ro.build.fingerprint=rogers/htc_magic/sapphire/sapphire:1.5/CUPCAKE/118917:user/release-keys
ro.build.display.id=DRC92 3.05.631.7

Once you reboot your Magic, you should see the changes in Settings->About Phone under "Build Number".

Call into Rogers and get then to reset your network and you should be good.

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[The-Pheon]

and in other news, my sister is going to do this? good luck with that.

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[i.of.the.storm]

Actually, they somewhat recently released a Native Development Kit which allows JNI style access to native code.

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[BitZtream]

The people who aren't going to be capable of doing this are the exact same group of people that DON'T GIVE A SHIT that they don't have root or that they update their firmware.

Get some perspective

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[litui]

I'll add a note that this approach isn't 100% proven. We don't know for a fact that the mods are sending the same information to Rogers contained in the build.prop files as the Rogers firmware is sending, or that the mods are even sending that information at all.

However, I do endorse this approach for lack of better ideas, and my phone is connected in spite of being on CyanogenMod.

I'm not sure if the network reset itself or the build.prop fix is responsible, but I'll take what I can get.

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[jimicus]

Let me get this straight - whoever figured this out has a mobile phone which has an issue with the firmware which can cause it to crash horribly when making an emergency call.

A firmware update which fixes this issue is available.

And they would rather screw around with the version number the phone reports to the network to avoid having to carry out this upgrade than just do it? I hope to Christ they never have to call the emergency services.

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[ensignyu]

Just the fact that they're discriminating based on version is already pretty bad. They ought to just send you a SMS with a warning message every week or something.

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[Movi]

The people who have rooted phones have this bug patched. However the version number is not what rogers expects.

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[Chrisq]

I think we need a new acronym: RTFS. Oh its already overloaded.

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[GooberToo]

Let me get this straight - whoever figured this out has a mobile phone which has an issue with the firmware which can cause it to crash horribly when making an emergency call.

The fix has been available for over five months. Most every Android device in the world has the fix except for Roger's customers. Of those customers, all users which have installed alternate firmware have long had the fix. So basically Rogers is also disabling service for users who have long been ahead of Rogers.

I believe I remember reading that someone's phone did recently crash during a 911 call and that they died. This is likely why Rogers is being so draconian about the update. Of course, at the end of the day, they've known about the bug for over five months so I suspect they'll still get it handed to them.

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[CNeb96]

Thanks for the info. I found a link the feature.

http://developer.android.com/sdk/ndk/1.6_r1/index.html#overview

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[Attila Dimedici]

If they can't/won't do this, they should not have root privileges. People who have root privileges who are the type unable to do what it takes to get around Rogers' "fix", are usually the type who will get pwned. If they are just unwilling to do what it takes, then they don't need root.

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[asdfghjklqwertyuiop]

It depends on the specific android phone you're talking about. Some of them (like some of those sold by carriers) have firmware that will only boot specific signed OS images. Others (like the dev phone or nexus one) will boot anything you want, such as an android image set up to give you root easily.

On the other hand, standard android apps can be run on any phone (AFAIK) without needing to be signed or obtained through the android marketplace or whatever. Each app runs as its own UID and only has access to specifically granted things, however, so that's not necessarily equivalent to running your own android OS image.

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[shutdown -p now]

Android doesn't come with root.

Doesn't it come with the "official" standard way of enabling root access, though?

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[i.of.the.storm]

No problem. It's a far cry from being able to run normal Linux userland programs on Android (which may be possible if you have root or something? at the least you can apparently install Debian in a chroot jail. I dunno, don't have an Android device yet) but it is a nice and necessary addition to Android.

Re:Uhm, I thought it was open?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly why ISPs should cut off access to Linux customers. After all, if they are unwilling to spend the time faking a IE8 request header, IIS response headers, and TCP/IP containers, they don't deserve to be running a free OS.

note: Yes, that was sarcasm. Service providers should not be able to dictate our hardware or software on penalty of cutting off our service.

Rogers is not the only one anymore

[Anonymous Coward]

Rogers is not the only GSM provider in Canada now, Bell and Telus have turned up a combined HSPA network, and there is also Wind, and others coming on stream soon.

How ironic

[ChipMonk]

Rogers finally gets off their collective duff, and fixes a potentially life-threatening bug.

Within weeks of the GSM hack being published.

Is there anything Rogers gets right? Or are they currently the most abusive monopoly Canucks have to live with?

Re:How ironic

[dubbreak]

Is there anything Rogers gets right? Or are they currently the most abusive monopoly Canucks have to live with?

While I agree rogers sucks, they aren't a monopoly. Canada does have a problem with cell providers though. There has to be collusion between the cell companies, that's the only explanation for the ridiculous rates canadians have to put up with. I've had a cell phone since '98 and comparable plans have not gotten cheaper since then. I've been on all the major canadian carriers as well and while coverage is acceptable now it still sucks. Best coverage and cost I ever had was in Vancouver with Fido before they were bought out by Rogers.

"High speed" internet is the same thing. It costs the same as I was paying in the 90's and I had better bandwidth then (no upload speed caps, much more consistent DL speeds). If I want higher upload rates I now have to pay a premium for them to up the cap. Awesome.

Re:How ironic

[Doggabone]

Is there anything Rogers gets right? Or are they currently the most abusive monopoly Canucks have to live with?

While I agree rogers sucks, they aren't a monopoly. Canada does have a problem with cell providers though. There has to be collusion between the cell companies, that's the only explanation for the ridiculous rates canadians have to put up with. I've had a cell phone since '98 and comparable plans have not gotten cheaper since then. I've been on all the major canadian carriers as well and while coverage is acceptable now it still sucks. Best coverage and cost I ever had was in Vancouver with Fido before they were bought out by Rogers. "High speed" internet is the same thing. It costs the same as I was paying in the 90's and I had better bandwidth then (no upload speed caps, much more consistent DL speeds). If I want higher upload rates I now have to pay a premium for them to up the cap. Awesome.

Replace "abusive monopoly" with "corporate fucktards" and you've got a near-perfect sentence. I'd sooner go without than go with Rogers for any of their services. (Thank goodness I found TekSavvy!) Collusion isn't needed when competition is light, and so far competition has been light - and between two companies known for marketing on B.S. more than competitive pricing or services.

Re:How ironic

[TikiTDO]

They are most certainly a monopoly, just not a cell phone monopoly. At least in Ontario they are the only cable provider. Of course they also offer discounts all of the services they provide if you get bundles, so while they may not be a monopoly in all markets, just the fact that they are in one is already a big problem.

Re:How ironic

[JobyKSU]

Or are they currently the most abusive monopoly Canucks have to live with?

No - that would be Telus. The area of Alberta where I lived - a new landline waiting list was over 2 years. Well, that was when a time was quoted or you weren't told unequivocally "no." Customer service is a joke.

Now, after moving to Toronto, my experience is vastly different. Rogers is giving me 10mbs at home for prices comparable to what I paid in the US, respectable speed and 6gb tethering with mobile... 50 mbps available (if you want to pay). Plus, a healthy bit of competition has the major companies (Rogers, Telus, and Bell) competing for subscribers with phone, mobile, TV, and internet packages - and a corresponding increase in quality of customer service here.

It all comes down to location when dealing with these corps in Canada.

Re:How ironic

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess all those customers of Cogeco cable in Ontario will be really upset to learn their cable provider doesn't exist.

Re:How ironic

[Anonymous Coward]

They are most certainly a monopoly, just not a cell phone monopoly. At least in Ontario they are the only cable provider. Of course they also offer discounts all of the services they provide if you get bundles, so while they may not be a monopoly in all markets, just the fact that they are in one is already a big problem.

Rogers is not the only cable provider in Ontario! You must be from Toronto.......

Cogeco, mountain cable.....

Re:How ironic

[Wolfier]

Maybe it's a collusion, or maybe it's simply because the market is not saturated yet, so the carriers are in no rush to compete for customers because there always are those who don't have a phone yet.

I suspect when the saturation gets higher (which is happening), customers will switch carriers more aggressively (which is also happening). The hope is that after a year or so, the prospect of having anything like a collusion would make less sense than going all out and compete - because they'll hopefully be running out of new customers that don't require much effort to entice.

Re:How ironic

[Anonymous Coward]

There has to be collusion between the cell companies, that's the only explanation for the ridiculous rates canadians have to put up with.

Went in to Telus the other day to change my plan after a $200 bill the previous month from exceeding my minutes (my regular plan cost $90/month as it was). While discussing plan options with the rep I mentioned that in the US, the cost of my monthly cell plan could get me full HD cable, phone and internet together. She admitted that at their Telus convention they were shown a graph of worldwide cellular accessibility and Canada was at the bottom of the list. Hell, if I were trapped in the rubble of an earthquake here, I would not be able to text my location as my phone would not get reception; not that I use text as I refuse to pay the 15c fee per incoming message.

In 2010, there are stretches of major highway in this country that have no coverage (ie. the Trans-Canada through the Rocky Mountains between Alberta and BC). It is a dangerous road and calling for help is impossible in the event of an accident. Rogers and Telus/Bell need to get off their collective asses, improve cell network coverage and stop working to stifle any competition.

Re:How ironic

[Aceticon]

My experience too.

I live in Europe (UK at the moment) and took my (unlocked) GSM phone to Canada when I went on vacations there. Since I was going to be there for almost a month, I bought a SIM card from Rogers to use in Canada and avoid roaming costs.

My experience:
- A Pay-As-You-Ggo (i.e. no contract) SIM is ridiculously expensive (C$50 with no included minutes). For comparisson sake, £35 (about C$60) in the UK with no contract gets me a SIM card, a mobile network dongle (really!) and includes £15 in credit (and the UK is hardly the cheapest mobile phone market in Europe, in Holland I got a SIM card for 5 EUR).
- In Canada you pay to receive calls (wtf!)
- Top-ups expire after a while: in other words, you load money into the phone and if you don't use it before a set deadline date then Rogers just takes it away.
- Making calls does cost about 2/3 of what it costs in the UK. Again, please note that the UK is far from the cheapest mobile market in Europe.
- Checking your voicemail is free in the UK but costs money with Rogers in Canada.

To top it all up, they assigned me a mobile number which was re-used from somebody else and came subscribed to some "pay-to-receive one SMS joke a day" scam - this required a call to Rogers support where they first tried to deny all responsability and finally relented and repayed the money taken from my account only after I got angry, mentioned that number re-use was not my choice - their problem not mine - and mentioned something about "deceitfull sales practices" and that maybe it should be escalated to the local regulatory entities. I had to demand a block be put on all SMSs to that number to avoid further such issues.

All in all I'm happy this was only for a month and I don't see how you Canadians take it.

Re:How ironic

[dancingmilk]

We have nothing else to use... all the carriers push similar crap onto their users.

Re:How ironic

[Dorkmaster Flek]

We take it because we have to. The Canadian Internet service industry is crap as it is, but the wireless industry is absolute shit up here. Even the pay as you go options are garbage. The personal time of my life was getting heckled in downtown Toronto by kids hawking Rogers phones and service plans. I think I send a few of them home crying when I told them I'd rather have a rectal exam than get suckered into one of their contracts (in much harsher words).

Re:How ironic

[CokeJunky]

I expect that part of the problem here is the low population density compared to other markets.
Simply put, Canada has about the same landmass of the continental united states (I had to look that up, but it's actually surprisingly close), but only 1/10 the number of people. The population density of the USA is listed as 32 people per km^2, Canada is 3.2/km^2. A few city-only serivces have existed: Fido, for example, but they were bought up because Canadians travel alot, and really really want good coverage on the major highways. When you are 200-300 km from anywhere, it's kinda nice to have a bar or two on your phone. That means that it is hard to draw customers to the city-only services in the long term.

Don't get me wrong: Rogers and friends are still turning an insane profit on our backs, but sometimes that is just the way it works. At least those profits are mostly staying in Canadian hands.

To build out a new cellular network takes a considerable amount of capital to provide coverage for enough people to make it worthwhile. I don't think the cell operators need collusion to keep the prices high -- since a new player either needs the money and time to build out a network, or they have to pay an existing player to offer a virtual cell network -- and you can bet that the existing players are .

The only reason we are getting new carriers finally is that the CRTC stepped in and is forcing existing players to provide that virtual network capability at a wholesale price that lets the new carriers compete. In other words, they are regulating a way to prevent the carriers from a making such a big profit and opening the field to competition. Some of that competition is being funded from non-canadian sources, which I am not sure is such a great thing: It will be years before the competition amongst carriers makes a dent in the rates we are paying, and in the meanwhile, that means sending the profits out of the country, which for Canada has never been such a good thing.

I think what it comes down to is that all the options suck, and the new options suck just as bad as the old ones, and it's only going to get worse.

Re:How ironic

[yacc143]

Ridiculous is correct, for years the data access rates have been higher for native Canadian SIM than say an Austrian SIM doing data roaming in Canada (haven't checked for 2 years, but it come up in discussion back then, and I was shocked that my SIM would be cheaper when roaming).

 

Re:How ironic

[Anonymous Coward]

'There has to be collusion between the cell companies, that's the only explanation for the ridiculous rates canadians have to put up with'

There is another explanation: Nash Equilibrium.

Re:How ironic

[DarthVain]

It's called not having a choice.

If you don't like Rogers, your only other option is Bell, and they are just as bad.

Neither compete, nor have any inclination to improve service.

Government will not do anything about it, because of lobby power. In fact have done Canadians a disservice by allowing the corporate amalgamations of all the rest of the telecommunication corporations, like Fido, Telus, etc... into either Bell or Rogers. The CRTC (regulators, supposedly) even hobbled any independent ISP trying to use either lines and to compete.

The ONLY hope that remains right now, is the new telecommunication corporation being started up right now. However this was not done for our benefit, it was merely a spin off when the Government sold the spectrum as a cash grab.

I fully expect Bell and Rogers to join forces to crush the newcomer, and then resume their reign of evil. Hopefully they survive, and change the market for the better, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Considering the start up and infrastructure costs, currently I believe it will only be available in select metro areas, and slowly expanded over a period of years. In other words, change, if it even happens, will be slow.

Re:How ironic

[rxan]

That's what I've been saying all along.

I can't get a dataplan with Rogers or Bell without signing a contract. Now if I want to quit my contract I would have to pay a voice ETF and a data ETF, totalling over $400. I didn't even get a subsidized phone. There is no choice because both Bell and Rogers have the same plans and there is no other providers with the same service areas.

So while wireless voice is an essential service these days, with wireless data to quickly become essential as well, you can't get service without contracts, tie-ins, and ridiculous ETFs. In any other industry this would be illegal and anticompetitive. But in Canada it's a way of life.

Imagine if your power company charged you $400 for trying to switch to another company. Exactly, doesn't make sense.

Re:How ironic

[DarthVain]

You Obviously don't live in Ontario.

I have "Direct Energy".

Please shoot me.

Currently if you combined all my Hate for Bell and Rogers into one caustic black ball of rage/hate (and its considerable), it wouldn't be a drop in the glass that is my feelings for Direct Energy and the rest of the energy "distributors" in Ontario.

I would rather sit down a talk with a Mormon for an hour than see one of those fsckers at my door!

Re:How ironic

[Stewie241]

I thought mountain cable was bought out by shaw?

There is Source Cable as well though, although they are really small.

The end of the day, in any given area, there is only one selection for cable providers unless you go Satellite (which isn't cable).

Re:How ironic

[Your.Master]

That's simply not true. That might be true in the GTA; I don't remember other strictly-cable companies (though Bell offered FiOS TV as well as satellite). But I'm from Ontario -- southern Ontario, even -- and hadn't heard of Rogers other than as a cellphone provider before leaving for University (U of T). We got Sautel; some people not far away got Shaw.

Re:How ironic

[TikiTDO]

Ahh, I was not aware of that. I figured they had the whole province as tightly as they have the GTA. Though to be fair, having a monopoly on at least half of the provincial population is not too shabby either.

Re:How ironic

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a first gen iPhone in Canada on Rogers and am doing pay-as-you-go, because I don't live here year round. In November, I had GSM data for CAD$7/mo. and then Rogers cut off my data due to a terms of service change. Now my data costs CAD$3/DAY (CAD$90/month!) for up to 25mb of data per day! Outrageous!

Re:How ironic

[cparker15]

- In North America you pay to receive calls (wtf!)

Fixed that for you. I'm in the States. I pay to receive calls and texts (AT&T GoPhone).

Security Updates... now with push support!

[LostCluster]

On a closed system, the company behind the system should be able to push updates, especially when there's a security or safety risk involved.

But Google is claiming this is an "open" smartphone... and under this scheme it's usual that the user control when to upgrade.

What a contradictory situation this brings up...

Re:Security Updates... now with push support!

[Thinboy00]

Obvious solution: cell networks shouldn't be closed systems in the first place.

Re:Security Updates... now with push support!

[BitZtream]

The user does control when it gets updated. They just lose other things and get annoyed to all hell and back until they upgrade.

Re:Security Updates... now with push support!

[mjwx]

What a contradictory situation this brings up...

Not really,

You're assuming all phones are as locked down and restricted as a certain phone, Android devices are not. You see the telco only controls the service, not the handset. You can wait for the telco to get of their arse and publish an update or you can do it yourself as many Optus (Australia) and Rogers Dream owners have already done.

Now Rogers is being a bastard and threatening to cut off any user who does not upgrade to the latest Rogers ROM. Smart Canadians already have already devised a method of defeating this of course. Now only if Canada had some kind of orgnaisation mandated to protect consumer rights, business rights and monitor for abuses that would tear a telco apart for this kind of douchbagery.

Re:Security Updates... now with push support!

[Anonymous Coward]

they could easily have done this as an over the air update direct to handsets, and 5 months ago too...

Re:Security Updates... now with push support!

[LostCluster]

Oh sure... have a cell network where everybody can transmit whatever they want whenever they want. Good luck with that.

Happened to my wife...

[Anonymous Coward]

Fed up with the barrage of "URGENT" text messages & direct calls from Rogers staff, my wife decided to complete the update (mostly just to stop the harassment). A failed download from the Rogers website, and a second attempt later - welcome to a bricked Android. Rogers now pays the price by mailing us a replacement. Wonder if they'll try to pass this cost on to HTC, or worse... Google?

Re:Happened to my wife...

[smash]

Well, if the design of the device allows itself to brick due to a failed download, then perhaps HTC or google SHOULD wear the cost. Totally different issue to requiring the firmware update - your issue is that the android update process on your HTC phone is broken.

Re:Happened to my wife...

[Wolfier]

If the carrier did't put in the radio code and SPL firmware updates, which are not necessary to fix the emergency call issue, the phone would not brick because the FastBoot is not part of normal OS updates.

Re:Happened to my wife...

[smash]

It is quite possible to make a flash updatable device that is impossible to "brick".

The hundreds of Cisco routers I've configured and flash updates over the years prove this.

open means closed for cellphones

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess the only truly open phone is the Openmoko Freerunner. There are so many "open-source based OS" out there but the whole point is lost because you can't install your own version - there are lots of restrictions and locks to prevent you from doing that too. You are forced to accept the cellphone manufacturers' and operators' crap.

Re:open means closed for cellphones

[Anonymous Coward]

Google Dev Phone 1 and the un-subsidized Nexus One have no such restrictions.

Re:open means closed for cellphones

[BitZtream]

OpenMoko is open if by open you mean unusable and useless. Seriously give up with the OpenMoko crap, it failed, no one actually gives a shit outside of a small portion of the tech community.

Re:open means closed for cellphones

[MobyTurbo]

I guess the only truly open phone is the Openmoko Freerunner. There are so many "open-source based OS" out there but the whole point is lost because you can't install your own version - there are lots of restrictions and locks to prevent you from doing that too. You are forced to accept the cellphone manufacturers' and operators' crap.

Maemo and WebOS are more open than Android, but they also have non-open-source components. OpenMoko is very open, but it's also very primative, it's essentially a feature-phone OS at best, not a smartphone OS; which is a pity. So it's really not much of an option.

Re:open means closed for cellphones

[daveb1]

Probably. I don't know SHR is fairly usable. The problem is that call quality has always been bad. However, openmoko isn't a very good "phone".

Re:open means closed for cellphones

[influenza]

The Openmoko community is a breeding ground for mobile Linux distros and and the FSO middleware. FSO and these distros, like SHR, Hackable:1, QtMoko will eventually be ported to other devices. That's one reason why Openmoko is still relevant. The work being done on Freerunners now will eventually result in being able to replace the proprietary parts of the Pre or the n900 with all Free software, or potentially replace the OS on an Android phone with a Linux distro that runs a X.org server.

The people using and developing for the Openmoko phones are very familiar with its faults. They use the phone and develop for it because the Freerunner is the most open handset available. It's a labour of love, and there are a lot of folks in the community that are very committed to Free Software.

If nothing else, Openmoko gave a bunch of nerds a crack at creating their own mobile operating system. It had the potential (and maybe still does through FSO and SHR) to enable the kind of built in the garage innovation that brought about companies like HP and Apple. That's a bit of a long shot, but a lot of great work has come out of the Openmoko community and things are still moving along.

Re:open means closed for cellphones

[Anonymous Coward]

Web OS is a proprietary OS that happens to contain the Linux kernel.

Re:open means closed for cellphones

[MobyTurbo]

and gstreamer, and binutils, and glibc, and pulse audio, and other elements of a Linux system. Need I go on? I linked to the article that compares it to a regular GNU/Linux system, it's pretty open, other than the JS/HTML5 apps themselves - but they have their source code in plain non-obfuscated text files. (Not in an inaccessible partition with closed source binaries like Android does.)

Read a full background here

[litui]

I've documented everything I've collected on the issue here: http://www.litui.net/archives/796

More detailed and ordered than the OP's links.

Re:Read a full background here

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

While this is a serious problem, do you think it helpful to have one-off issues reported by individual users via twitter in your documentation? It seems to cloud the issue with things that could be related to specific individuals, with no real evidence that it's related to the upgrade. Might it not be better to stick only to confirmed issues (more than one user reporting it as a new problem) that are introduced?

I wonder

[Kitkoan]

Is this phone sold as a truly 'open' phone, and does it state in the fine print you may alter the software as you wish 'at your own risk' of course. Because if it does since Android is considered an open phone, then this is a violation of the products sold upon description and would now put it as false advertising. Anyone have any of these phone and can check if it does state anything along those lines?

Anyone heard of the CDMA Android phones?

[mr_mischief]

Android is available on both GSM and CDMA phones. You don't have to have a GSM carrier to get a phone running Android.

HTC Hero, HTC Drois Eris, Motorola Droid, and the Samsung Moment are all CDMA Android phones.

I understand most of the CDMA Android phones are locked to specific carriers, and that could be an issue. If your carrier can't get a phone, that's a problem between the manufacturer and the carrier. It's not a CDMA vs. GSM issue that a particular carrier is refusing to secure your OS of choice.

Re:Anyone heard of the CDMA Android phones?

[Jonavin]

In Canada, the CDMA carriers (Telus, Bell) don't allow foreign CDMA handsets. So you couldn't import an unlocked Verizon DROID for example.

However, as of late last year, nearly all carriers now also have a UMTS/HSPA network (aka 3G GSM), including the new ones like WIND Mobile. They are all capable of using foreign handsets with compatible bands (which means AT&T or T-Mobile compatible depending on the network).

There actually isn't any CDMA Android devices in Canada. Telus does, however carry the UMTS/HSPA version of the HTC Hero. WIND Mobile can use all T-Mobile US Android devices including the Nexus One. Bell can use whatever Rogers and Telus offers.

The statement from the article "Rogers is the only GSM carrier in Canada and so the only choice for Android users" is completely for this reason.

Re:Anyone heard of the CDMA Android phones?

[Jonavin]

"completely wrong" is what I meant.

Contract breaking?

[tlhIngan]

Considering that Rogers isn't giving you data service anymore, a service that you pay for, could this be used as a way to break out of the contract?

After all, they refuse to provide the data service, they're not holding up their end of the deal, and you're paying for a service you cannot use.

Hell, at least call them and demand a credit for service not provided. Or move the SIM card to an iPhone and demand they activate the data service.

It's not like the data comes with the plan - you're free to buy any voice plan with a data plan.

Re:Contract breaking?

[Thinboy00]

You are probably not a lawyer. IANAL. Anyone who wants to break his/her contract should consult a real lawyer, who will in turn consult the contract and determine whether this is feasible. Contract might contain language like "Rogers reserves the right to suspend access to The Services under X circumstances... [You can't break the contract just because] Rogers has suspended Your access to The Services...[etc]".

Re:Contract breaking?

[CraigoFL]

You and I might see the logic in the argument, but I doubt there's much legal leg to stand on even if you cared to try and fight it. They're not "refusing to provide service", they're "requiring an update" for a problem which happens to (somehow) conflict with an essential (911) service. Install the fix, and you're back in action, so they're not denying you much at all. All of this will be covered under the Terms of Service I'm sure. I doubt any judge will go for the "they should be doing better than they are" argument.

Re:Contract breaking?

[BitZtream]

Yea, except you signed a contract that states they are allowed to require certain things like compatible software. So you are in fact the one refusing to comply with the terms of the contract.

Do you even read the contract you sign?

Re:Contract breaking?

[Anonymous Coward]

Rogers is automatically crediting 1 month data service because of this issue.

Re:Contract breaking?

[Trepidity]

That's not very useful advice, considering that the cost of a lawyer will probably be more than the cost of EITHER just paying the remaining contract, OR breaking it and paying some sort of penalty. So consulting a lawyer is the worst possible option, worse than asking on Slashdot and taking the resulting advice, even if it turns out to be wrong.

Re:Contract breaking?

[MacGyver2210]

If you're really good your $400/hour lawyer is a good friend of yours who will help you out with legit legal advice a personal issue like this in his free time for a $1 retainer fee.

Also, you don't necessarily have to sue them. I have gotten months and months of free internet, cable, phone, all for bitching everytime their service goes out. I feel a bit like a tool for doing so sometimes, especially if it's just 20 minutes or something, but on principle I AM paying for a service, and I'm not getting it.

Re:Contract breaking?

[GreenEnvy22]

Rogers has already announced everyone with one of these handsets will be getting one month of free data service. However, I don't think it's right Rogers has cutoff our data in order to force us to update. I have a rooted magic running a 1.6 rom which is immune to this 911 problem. They want me to reflash back to their 1.5rom, which co-incidentally they loaded a new SPL into that is currently unbreakable, so we can't even flash back to another rom after. Brief history: -Rogers announces there is a critical problem with 911 on dream and magic phones. The issue is related to GPS trying to send your location when you call 911. -Rogers advises customers to disable GPS until they issue a fix. -Rogers releases a new ROM that fixes the issue, they say if you don't update to it within a day or so, your internet access will be cut off (this also allows 911 calls to go through since it can't try to transmit your location)

Re:Contract breaking?

[DarthVain]

"Rogers reserves the right to suspend access to The Services under ANY circumstances..."

There fixed that for ya.

    -Rogers Support

Re:Contract breaking?

[Anonymous Coward]

They are actually giving out a one-month credit on data fees as compensation for locking you out. IANAL either, but this probably is enough to absolve them from a breach of contract on their end-- they'll apply this to your account automatically, forcing you to accept it as settlement.

So far the simplest option I've seen is the one where you call in, complain you updated your Android phone but your data hasn't been restored, read off the updated build number from the screenshot in their how-to update walkthrough.

Re:Contract breaking?

[Anonymous Coward]

no need to demand a credit ... they're providing a credit for one month of data service

What?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait you want competition ? (capitolism) ? Who would thought you need that when you a government sponsored program

Re:What?!?

[BitZtream]

If you look, nearly every abusive monopoly starts by misusing public funds given to them.

I'm sorry but doesn't that make them government sponsored, since the government distrbutes those funds.

Always Nice

[hduff]

Always nice to see a company exhibit such care for their customers and not be evil/greedy/stupid. Oh, wait . . .

Guess it's the iPhone for me ...

[tomhudson]

If I'm going to be locked in anyway, at least I might as well get the free black turtleneck.

Question is, what gives Rogers the right to force people who are PAYING for their phones to require them to update. You don't get the phone for free - a portion of your monthly cost goes towards paying the phone. The phone is YOUR property, not theirs. Try canceling before your term is over, they'll hit you with $20 for each unused month to pay for that phone.

Re:Guess it's the iPhone for me ...

[ColdWetDog]

If I'm going to be locked in anyway, at least I might as well get the free black turtleneck.

If you join (at the paying level) Apple Developer Connection, you get a black T-shirt.....

Turtlenecks are only for important folk.

Word #5

[michaelmalak]

It wasn't until the fifth word that I realized the U.S. wasn't under attack.

Re:Word #5

[Anonymous Coward]

"Oh shit, the hoser knows about our android carriers."
"CSIS, Deploy the beavers."

CSIS: 'Beavers, Take off eh!'

GSM is not HSPDA, Telus does not have GSM.

[starbugs]

GSM is 2G
Telus has HSPDA (or commonly called HSPA).
No GSM-only phone will work on Telus or Bell.

Many new 3G phones can use Both, so an unlocked phone can be on either network by just switching sim cards.
Besides having the same Tech. The phones must also support the specific frequencies used by that carrier.
Many European 3G phones will not work in North America.

It is rumored that Telus will get both the Milestone and perhaps even the Opus one this year.

Re:GSM is not HSPDA, Telus does not have GSM.

[Jonavin]

In any case all of Roger's Android devices does have 3G bands that will work with Bell and Telus. Telus also carries its own HSPA version of the HTC Hero.

So the article is wrong that Rogers is the only choice for Android in Canada, even if you ignore the fact that most Android devices that work on US networks will work on one or more of the HSPA networks with a SIM activation.

Re:GSM is not HSPDA, Telus does not have GSM.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you mean HSPA, which has HS-DPA and HS-UPA components, but they are all grouped as HSPA

Re:GSM is not HSPDA, Telus does not have GSM.

[Anonymous Coward]

And you've still got this wrong, deleted comments or not.

It's not called HSPDA, it's HS DPA (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Speed_Downlink_Packet_Access), closely matched with HS UPA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSUPA), with the combination being called HSPA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Speed_Packet_Access)

Concealing device id/type/abilities?

[gehrehmee]

Is there any practical way to conceal the details of the device from the carrier? To prevent the carrier from knowing the ID#, model #, or software details of the phone, beyond the identifying numbers on the SIM card?

As far as I'm concerned, if I own the hardware, I should be able to do what I want with it. All the service provider should care about is the SIM card to which they provide service.

Re:Concealing device id/type/abilities?

[litui]

So far, we're not altogether sure of what's being scanned for exactly. If it's a message the radio is sending out on connection to the network with a radio version, it'd be very difficult to intercept.

There's been suspicion it's just the build version, but build patches haven't proven themselves to work (it's been tried).

Re:Concealing device id/type/abilities?

[litui]

I'll add that there has been some luck fooling it by installing the CursorSense 1.2 mod, which is based on the Mandatory Update itself and reports the same or similar versions of just about everything.

Personally, I'm not that keen on switching mods unless I absolutely have to, though I do rank it as a better option than going with the mandatory update firmware.

Re:Concealing device id/type/abilities?

[BitZtream]

You can do whatever you want with the hardware, you own it.

Likewise, the carrier can do whatever it wants with ITS hardware, including not letting you access their network without following their rules, regardless of how arbitrary or ridiculous those rules are.

It goes both ways.

Re:Concealing device id/type/abilities?

[litui]

Actually, they legally can't in Canada.

From http://techreview.eatuniverse.net/2010/01/24/rogers-disconnects-data-services-to-g1-users/ :

"Some of you may recall legal precedence for this kind of issue, dating waaay back to the 70’s when Bell (then Northern Telecom) tried to force its customers to use Bell branded phones, and tried to attach a special fee to modem/fax use. The courts ruled against Bell, and the CRTC jumped in and made all sorts of rules to prevent telecom’s from requiring proprietary hardware, on standardized networks. This does, legally, carry over to GSM carriers. GSM is GSM. If your phone supports GSM on the frequency of a carrier, the carrier must provide a signal. Period."

Re:Concealing device id/type/abilities?

[Anonymous Coward]

prepaid plan. they dont give you a $5 discount if its not a rogers phone. but then they dont have this firmware bullshit either.

On top of all that...

[CraigoFL]

The user-applied fix isn't available for Mac or Windows 7 users. Those users are required to call into the Rogers tech support line to get the fix.

I did that, and had to wait on hold for over 30 minutes while the phone support waded through the (expected) deluge of calls. When I got through, I was told that I could either:

• Go to a Rogers store to get the fix
• Have a micro-SD card shipped to me (3-5 biz days wait) that contained a fix. (I don't know why they couldn't offer the fix for download).

I stopped in the Rogers store to get the fix. I waited for about 20 minutes while the customer support people (calling them "techs" wouldn't be accurate) installed the fix software on their in-store computers. Then I was told that the fix would wipe my phone. Did I have a backup? I said no; I haven't been able to find any evidence of Rogers-capable phone-sync software that works on my Mac (it's all Windows only). The store person offered to make a backup there, but after doing so he said that it only backed up my contacts, not my apps or settings (IMO the important parts). I walked out hoping that the SD solution will be better, but at best, I'm locked out of my wireless Internet service for 3-5 days.

It's hard to imagine how Rogers could have made this process worse.

Re:On top of all that...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's hard to imagine how Rogers could have made this process worse.

Mandatory animal sacrifice?

Re:On top of all that...

[canajin56]

It's hard to imagine how Rogers could have made this process worse.

Wait until you get the $10,000 bill for that SD card you ordered from them! ;)

Re:On top of all that...

[dkf]

It's hard to imagine how Rogers could have made this process worse.

Maybe the SD card will try to install leaching viruses on your phone, and yet won't actually fix the issue due to having the wrong version. Which would help with the viruses I suppose; you still won't have data service...

Or perhaps the SD card will be formatted with a filesystem that's only understood by AIX.

Re:On top of all that...

[haruchai]

"It's hard to imagine how Rogers could have made this process worse."

  Don't go throwing down the gauntlet in front of Rogers like that - they'll surpass your worst expectations.
  I was a customer 12 years ago and swore I'd never spend another dime on Rogers services again.
  My former roommate wouldn't listen and signed up - a year later, he too quit in disgust.

 

Re:On top of all that...

[Anonymous Coward]

The user-applied fix isn't available for Mac or Windows 7 users ...

I haven't been able to find any evidence of Rogers-capable phone-sync software that works on my Mac (it's all Windows only).

Look, Mac users are second-class citizens. Get used to it.

Re:On top of all that...

[GooberToo]

I stopped in the Rogers store to get the fix. I waited for about 20 minutes while the customer support people (calling them "techs" wouldn't be accurate) installed the fix software on their in-store computers. Then I was told that the fix would wipe my phone. Did I have a backup? I said no; I haven't been able to find any evidence of Rogers-capable phone-sync software that works on my Mac (it's all Windows only).

That's one of the features of most Android phones. Your data has long been backed up unless you specifically disabled it. Your contacts, calendars, and gmails are all ready and waiting. After the update, your phone will automatically sync and your contacts, calendars, and gmails will be readily available.

You will have lost the following: SMS/MMS, ringtone preferences, non-core, per application preferences, all third party data not stored on your SD. Overall, not a big loss as the truly important stuff will immediately be available after the upgrade.

Future versions of Android (2.1 and later, IIRC) will allow for all application settings to be automatically backed up and restored.

In the mean time, checkout MyBackup and MyBackupPro if you want an additional backup solution.

Re:On top of all that...

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't buy an Android if you are technologically inept? Install a virtual machine on your Mac and run XP. Or wine, or boot camp. Lots of much faster solutions than waiting 3-5 days. You chose to pair an incompatible platform together, now problem solve your way out of it instead of blaming the people who sold it to you.

Re:On top of all that...

[Anonymous Coward]

FWIW (and assuming you have the Dream), there is a shortcut to the firmware file available from Rogers' web site. Point your browser to http://www.rogers.com/dream-zip/ and it will redirect to the nbh file. Save the file to the root of your SD card. Turn the phone off. Hold down the camera button and the power button until you get the bootloader. When prompted, click the trackball to accept the update.

Re:On top of all that...

[dakohli]

I'm in the same boat. I called, waited for 40 minutes, then was berated by a Rogers Service Desk Employee for not having a Windows XP machine. I have Win 7 running on a desktop and netbook, and Linux on another desktop. After haranguing me for a few minutes he sent me an email with download instructions for a file that need to be put on the SD card. I booted up and voila, 1/2 hour later I was upgraded.

Of course I still had to wait the rest of the 24 hrs before I got my network services back. And when I did, imagine my surprise when the battery life was significantly shortened.

I have to charge it all night, and by 4pm the phone is shutdown for lack of power. GPS, Wifi, 3g all turned off. Near as I can figure, my weather app is draining the life out of it. Before the update, I could get 36 hours before worrying about the charge.

So, I guess I'm going to leave Android and go to something else. I just want my phone to work.

Not much to ask, eh?

They do

[Jon.Laslow]

I unlocked and sold a Rogers iPhone 3G to a friend who's using it on Telus. Works perfectly.

I got rid of the iPhone to due to Rogers network problems in my area with that model. Guess what kind of phone I got? Here's a hint: It starts with HTC and ends with Dream. I just can't win.

Re:They do

[Anonymous Coward]

The iPhone 3G is not a GSM-only phone. It is a GSM/UMTS phone.

open doesn't mean do what ever you want

[gbelteshazzar]

i think people are misunderstanding what open really means in the case of a mobile phone platform. the software on it may be open but you have to connect it to a controlled infrastructure where the controller can make you do what ever they want...

Re:open doesn't mean do what ever you want

[BhaKi]

but you have to connect it to a controlled infrastructure where the controller can make you do what ever they want...

Except, in this case the controller is not just making me do something on their network, but also intruding into my phone and modifying my software stack.

Re:open doesn't mean do what ever you want

[Aranykai]

Not true. You are completely able to simply refuse and not update. If you wish to continue using their service however, you must update.

Just because you own the device doesn't mean you have an unalienable right to use it on their network any way you chose.

Re:open doesn't mean do what ever you want

[Anonymous Coward]

By this logic, your ISP is perfectly within their rights to make you use Windows 7.

Re:open doesn't mean do what ever you want

[AK Marc]

Just because you own the device doesn't mean you have an unalienable right to use it on their network any way you chose.

In the US, we already had that case, and AT&T lost. They required that all phones be theirs, for extra profit. But that monopoly was busted by a court case. I'm sure that the carriers would fight that using your own phone on their network is completely different from using your own phone on their network, as was already settled by US courts.

Re:open doesn't mean do what ever you want

[Aranykai]

Except that we are not talking about a monopoly.

Re:open doesn't mean do what ever you want

[cdrguru]

What you are talking about was in 1984 and concerned wired phones.

In no way has this been decided to any extent in the US for wireless phones or any other device that uses a wireless network of any kind. What you will find is that around 1974 the FCC managed to push through some regulations that allowed CB radios to be sold to people without requiring them to possess FCC licenses. In order to do this, the radios themselves had to be pretty much sealed by the manufacturer who would be licensed and certify that the radios could not be operated in a manner contrary with their licensing.

This regulation pretty much set the stage for devices that cannot be modified by the end user. Doing so immediately revokes the license to operate the device and it can be seized by the FCC or their appointed agents. I assure you that replacing the firmware in a cell phone with something not produced by a licensed and regulated entity is something that could very well trigger this sort of action - which would likely as not resulted in some court decisions in the US.

My guess is that there is no way any device will be allowed to be operated contrary to its licensing, whether it is a CB radio, cell phone, wireless router, or microwave oven. Any modification to such devices that causes the device to operate in a manner different than its licensing will be ruled as a violation of the law. Hasn't happened yet, but I am pretty sure this decision is coming. What will almost certainly trigger it is some modified firmware that causes either an outage or billing problems.

Re:open doesn't mean do what ever you want

[AK Marc]

We are talking about a regulated telecom vs a regulated telecom. Yes, massive difference so big it's completely unrelated.

Re:open doesn't mean do what ever you want

[AK Marc]

So if the open phones just lock out changes on the RF chips, they should be fine. Let the OS be open, and the "accessory" of the phone chipset be closed by statute, and it'll satisfy your reading of the FCC requirement. Not to mention it isn't done that way now when people find ways of firmware-flashing radios. There are multiple 802.11 devices that will easily let you violate FCC regulations with a firmware flash, and none of those have a problem. So, though not "decided", it is something that is happening now without a problem, and that you assert it will become one for this one device when it isn't for any other doesn't seem right. But then, none of the other devices had a multi-billion dollar company that might want them locked down.

Ruh roh..

[adbge]

Damsel: Help me, please! My husband is having a heart attack!
911: This call cannot be processed until you upgrade your phones firmware. For more information, press 1. To speak with a technician, press 2.

Some phones are more open than Android

[MobyTurbo]

I thought the one of the battle cries that Android fanboys wave at the iPhone fanboys was that it was open and you weren't locked into running what the provider wanted, you had root on your own device and they can't take it away ... Turns out they can force remote updates and lockout root?

By comparison, Palm not only has root available on all their WebOS phones, it is provided by Palm's SDK itself and not by an unsupported hack that can be closed later at the carrier's or device maker's discretion. CEO Jon Rubenstein has even publicly praised the Homebrew community, who's efforts are encouraged, and they've promised not to close developer mode.

Maemo, from Nokia (N900, Nokia Internet Tablets) is even more open in a way; not only you have root, you have essentially a little Linux computer with all that implies; this is due to it's UMPC heritage, it originally wasn't really a smartphone OS. (Though it's a little easier to hack the apps for WebOS with "patches" because they're just JS/HTML5 text files, except the new native apps. :) )

Really, although Android has Linux, among the Linux-based phone OSs, it is probably the most closed.

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[BitZtream]

Yes, the failure that is Palm is reaching for anything it can get, we got that.

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[mjwx]

Palm not only has root available on all their WebOS phones,

All 300 people who bought the Palm Pre in the UK will not attest to your assertion.

Android is Open Source, part GPL and part Apache. WebOS is closed source, it uses the Linux Kernel but most of the OS is proprietary.

I can install a pre-rooted mod on my HTC Dream, easily enough mod already exist for the HTC Magic, Hero, Nexus One, Samsung Galaxy and Motorola Droid/Milestone. I cannot customise nor install a custom version of WebOS on a Palm device.

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[MobyTurbo]

Palm not only has root available on all their WebOS phones,

Android is Open Source, part GPL and part Apache.

It's partially open source. Ever seen the source code for Android Google Maps or any of the other Google apps on Android?

WebOS is closed source, it uses the Linux Kernel but most of the OS is proprietary.

It has a lot of open source components. Not just the kernel. WebOS is a recognisably Linux in a way the Android isn't, it contains many of the elements of Linux besides the kernel. Heck, it even contains an ARM assembler on-board. (And mine contains gcc too, but that's because it has a Debian chroot installed. :) ) Even the closed-source stuff is mostly HTML5 and Javascript, is not obfuscated, and is easily modifiable.

I cannot customise nor install a custom version of WebOS on a Palm device.

You can customize WebOS quite a bit, and literally hundreds of patches and themes are available for it. Yes, few custom ROMs have been developed for WebOS, but since you don't need to do anything special to get root, or to customize WebOS, there's not much of a need to flash a new ROM.

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[fredrik70]

It's partially open source. Ever seen the source code for Android Google Maps or any of the other Google apps on Android?

those are applications, not the OS which is far more important IMHO to have as open source / free software.

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[Xyde]

>you have essentially a little Linux computer with all that implies

Haha, be careful with that one ;)

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[MobyTurbo]

>you have essentially a little Linux computer with all that implies

Haha, be careful with that one ;)

I own an n810, the predecessor to the N900 smartphone. Maemo indeed is Linux, and other than a few adaptations for the UMPC-sized screen, is a lot more like running a desktop distro than a smartphone OS. The applications are C and C++ mostly, and use libraries similar or identical to those of Linux desktop apps for the most part.

WebOS is a lot like Linux under the hood, but a lot of it is "under the hood" as far as the user and even non-native app developer are concerned. (Native apps are a different story, you can port an SDL game from Linux in a very straightforward fashion now.)

Android is even farther from a Linux distro as far as the guts go (see my link in a previous message), though it is more open-source as far as the parts that aren't like a Linux distro go that it adds, unlike WebOS, though it is more locked-down than WebOS, unless hackers root it (without the aid or endorsement of Google), as I pointed out. I should point out that unauthorized rooting and custom ROMs have nothing to do with the openness or open source status of a system, plenty of Windows Mobile phones have custom ROMs and unauthorized tethering access and the like.

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[MobyTurbo]

It's partially open source. Ever seen the source code for Android Google Maps or any of the other Google apps on Android?

those are applications, not the OS which is far more important IMHO to have as open source / free software.

I think we're getting away from the core practical implications of Android vs. other phone operating systems. Android is open source for the most part (some exceptions exist even in the OS itself, but I'll grant you more of it, percentage-wise, is open source than WebOS). Android is more locked down than WebOS in several ways, and less Linux-like from a native programmer's standpoint, but since most of it is open source, it's easier to port to new hardware.

This is great if you're a phone mfr. who needs to adopt an OS to new hardware, but if it's more locked down, the only way to get root is essentially the Android equivalent of "jailbreaking", and the core apps are a closed-source black box rather than easy to modify, certain aspects of tinkering with it are more difficult for the phone's owner than WebOS.

It's a pity that something like OpenMoku isn't available for the smartphone world (it's a dumbphone OS), even Maemo is partially closed-source, but Maemo is probably the closest thing to an open source OS for phones out there now that it's left the UMPC world and entered the smartphone world thanks to Nokia. Android though, ultimately gives you an illusion of open source freedom on a certain level, as this demonstrates.

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[migla]

Really, although Android has Linux, among the Linux-based phone OSs, it is probably the most closed.

Yes and no. While I wouldn't have gotten anything but the n900, for precisely the fact that Maemo is more like a regular (gnu/)linux distro compared to Android and WebOS, I hear that for example Android is indeed as much open as far as licences on code goes.

I havern't listened yet, but the software freedom law show talks about mobile software freedom in a recent podcast: http://www.softwarefreedom.org/podcast/2010/jan/19/0x1F/

Apparently they side with Android (but partly because there are more hardware vendors to choose from, I hear).

But, again. I prefer maemo 5 on the n900, because I want an open "linux distro" on my phone, not just an open "linux based newfangled mobile phone OS" (or whatchamacallit, I realize one might technically call Android or WebOS "distros", but you know what I mean).

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[migla]

...sorry forgot to clarify how I agree with you:

Yes, if the carriers can tivoize (would that term apply here?) Android in this way, that is obviously one hell of a big reduction of the "openness".

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[MobyTurbo]

Really, although Android has Linux, among the Linux-based phone OSs, it is probably the most closed.

Yes and no. While I wouldn't have gotten anything but the n900, for precisely the fact that Maemo is more like a regular (gnu/)linux distro compared to Android and WebOS, I hear that for example Android is indeed as much open as far as licences on code goes.

I havern't listened yet, but the software freedom law show talks about mobile software freedom in a recent podcast: http://www.softwarefreedom.org/podcast/2010/jan/19/0x1F/

Apparently they side with Android (but partly because there are more hardware vendors to choose from, I hear).

But *all* of those Android vendors don't give you root, it has to be hacked, which leaves it open to "tivoization" as you said, when inevitably some of the carriers or phone vendors take it away, even if just for a while. (And if they take it away, even if just for a while, this is practically as closed as the iPhone; where you have to jailbreak it to get any freedom on the device.) Keep in mind that open source has a purpose, at least according to the non-pragmatist wing of the free software movement. It's purpose, according to the FSF, is not merely the proliferation of friendly licenses; it's the ability to modify and use the hardware and software you bought the way you see fit. As such, WebOS is slightly more in spirit, and Maemo even more in spirit, of the meaning of open source than Android; in spite of Android having a larger percentage (none of these are 100% open source) of code with a nice license.

But, again. I prefer maemo 5 on the n900, because I want an open "linux distro" on my phone, not just an open "linux based newfangled mobile phone OS" (or whatchamacallit, I realize one might technically call Android or WebOS "distros", but you know what I mean).

It is nice, I do kind of like WebOS's interface, but I already have an older Nokia Internet Tablet anyway and besides, I'm enslaved to a CDMA carrier so it doesn't make sense for me to get an unlocked GSM phone. (Though I'm thinking of selling the N810, it's a bit redundant once you have a smartphone with a good browser.) Also, the N900 is a transitional device; when Mameo goes from GTK+ to Qt, it will become incompatible with all newer Maemo devices that will be released by Nokia. That made me a bit reluctant to get it as well, I've been stung already by Nokia's tendency to make their devices obsolete. (They do this with Symbian too, much to the consternation of Symbian phone developers who have to deal with a half dozen different incompatible versions.)

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[Builder]

I don't think that the GP was questioning whether or not the N900 did run Linux - I think he was responding to the 'and all that implies' statement. Not everyone will see that as a positive thing.

I've tried the N900 and I personally feel it is a steaming pile of unusable shit. It's not a phone I could hand to my parents and expect them to use. It's hard to use one-handed, too many applications do not support portrait mode and the Ovi store selection is dire.

The hardware is OK and the platform has potential, but as a consumer cell phone today, it doesn't cut it.

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[MobyTurbo]

I don't think that the GP was questioning whether or not the N900 did run Linux - I think he was responding to the 'and all that implies' statement. Not everyone will see that as a positive thing.

I've tried the N900 and I personally feel it is a steaming pile of unusable shit. It's not a phone I could hand to my parents and expect them to use.

Yeah, the N900 is really just a Linux UMPC with a cell radio added. WebOS has a much smoother interface, a bit better interface as far as that goes than Android even (here I go again talking about WebOS on an Android board, it really *is* a nice OS tho, too bad about the lack of apps and hardware build quality for the Pre.)

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[FlyingBishop]

The browser is a Google application, and is open source. Now of course you're going to come out with "but that doesn't count, most of the hard stuff is closed-source."

But that's not the point. Google provides the FOSS OS and some FOSS apps. Just because there are some closed components doesn't remove the FOSS of the platform.

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[GooberToo]

By comparison, Palm not only has root available on all their WebOS phones,

That's what developer phones like the ADP1 and Nexus One are for. The ADP1/N1 comes with both root and the engineering boot loader which readily allows for installing alternate images. On the N1, such features is available on every device.

So what was your point again?

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[fredrik70]

yes, point taken. Would be better if android just included a way to root it for people who'd like to. Never really played with WebOS, looks quite nice though.
Happy with my G1 as it is, next phone might be a maemo, we'll see!

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[alexandre]

Well well, needs these days...

As someone who upgraded from a very old Nokia phone (6020) to a N900 recently i can say that the phone is very easy to use and i get the added bonus of having a desktop like experience with it.

It does everything my older phone did and a whole lot more so I can't see how it's this bad...
It might not be full of apps like an iPhone yet but at least i can sleep well knowing what's running on it.

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[alexandre]

It might not be so much the switch to Qt that will make the upgrade incompatible as the fact that current device don't have multitouch.
The n900 is already running qt 4.5.3 and 4.6 apps without any problems and actually, it's smoother than GTK+ (no clue why, maybe because they're still simple?) :)

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[MobyTurbo]

WebOS uses WebKit for the browser too. My point is that Android is not an entirely open-source platform, and not only that, even though it is somewhat open by license it is being "tivoized" by this carrier. (i.e. even though it is open source, you aren't in control of your device, which is why open source was invented in the first place.)

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[MobyTurbo]

Yeah, I don't exactly agree with the "steaming pile of shit" comment of the parent post to mine, but I do think it needs work on the interface department. At least, if it's anything like the N810, which I have, which has an interface that's complex. Of course, if what you want is a UMPC with a cell radio, it's exactly that, and probably does an admirable job of it.

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[migla]

Interesting about the spirit of software freedom... I'm very much into all of this "linux stuff" for the freedom. Though, not to the point of going for Openmoko instead of the n900.

Also, the N900 is a transitional device; when Mameo goes from GTK+ to Qt, it will become incompatible with all newer Maemo devices that will be released by Nokia. That made me a bit reluctant to get it as well, I've been stung already by Nokia's tendency to make their devices obsolete.

I haven't followed Maemo 6 development or "N920" rumours much, but maybe the n900 and maemo 5 is just the right kind of device for me. Maybe the upcoming devices and OS will be more mainstream, dumbed down and tivoized...

Or maybe maemo 6 can be used on the n900, save for multi-touch and whatever other new features the new HW will have. I hope they make the extra effort for backwards compatability for the sake of not getting bad-will. I don't think nokia has said anything about it yet.

I also have an n800, on which I plan to install mer, the community effort to rescue the n8x0:s from obsoleteness. http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[MobyTurbo]

If Mer supported sound, I'd be more enthusiastic. The sound chip has closed-source drivers on the Nokia Internet Tablet though, so this is not likely. (One of the closed-source parts of Maemo.)

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[MobyTurbo]

By comparison, Palm not only has root available on all their WebOS phones,

That's what developer phones like the ADP1 and Nexus One are for. The ADP1/N1 comes with both root and the engineering boot loader which readily allows for installing alternate images. On the N1, such features is available on every device.

So what was your point again?

Why should I need an expensive "developer hardware" phone to have control over the hardware I bought? Would you say the same thing if your PC were locked-down and you had to buy, for three times the price, a "Developer Computer" to have control of it?

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[GooberToo]

Bad example. If I by a subsidized computer, I wouldn't expect to do whatever I want with it until my contract term is up. Funny that's pretty much how things work.

Having said that, I think its downright silly that everyone works so hard to prevent root access. As palm has likely shown, I doubt allowing root access has suddenly created a huge support issue.

I guess its more about control to limit people from tethering and whatnot.

Re:Some phones are more open than Android

[Kazin]

They do. It's called the Android Development Phone. Buy one of those, and you have root right out of the box.

but...

[smash]

Apple is evil, and android is open!

Wait... what?

Re:but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well it's not Android that's the problem. It's the service provider. By my estimate it's better than my situation.

Me: Apple sucks and AT&T sucks. 0/2

Them: Android is great and my provider sucks. 1/2

Re:but...

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno, you should lay off the stuff.

Ahh Rogers..

[loconet]

For those interested, there are further discussions here and here.

In my case, I use Linux exclusively so this weekend I had to hunt down a Windows XP box (since it doesn't work on 7) that I could use. There was no way I was going to trust
the clowns at a Rogers store nor wait for the SD card to get shipped.

As much as I like Android and the whole concept of an open mobile platform, there is still a lot of work to do in terms of letting all members of that mobile ecosystem know who is resposnible for what. The entangled mess that is the mobile industry in Canada will be a challenge.

Thanks to Rogers' constant habit of sticking their stinky paws in the ROM to customize it with their useless icons (amongst other things), "supported" upgrades to Android devices such as the HTC Magic and HTC Dream are VERY difficult. Part of the reason Rogers was even able to release the fix so quickly was because a vocal group of us has been pushing Rogers and HTC to stop this nonsense and letting us upgrade - I'm sure work had already gotten started. I am curious about what would have happened if Rogers and HTC had continued with their no upgrades plans.

Re:Android fanboyism

[nrgy]

I know one thing that is open, I can buy a multitude of phone types from different manufacturers.

Appstore purchases are transferable to another device, save for the other device running a version of the Android operating system the application in question supports.

The appstore while currently not having as many applications as Apples, does include many that Apple would simply never allow to be sold.

You don't have to be a fanboy to see that in certain aspects the Android is more of an "open" platform.

I didn't update and I have internet

[Anonymous Coward]

I received text messages last week warning of the cutoff and forced update.

I called Saturday afternoon and politely asked the CSR if I'd receive any consideration for running an unaffected 1.6 ROM and have made a few 911 calls. Apparently the guy made a note. I asked for his name and ID number and hung up. Next day neither of the phones had internet, so I called up and sang the same song to the this CSR; he insisted that I had to update, I explained that I'm not affected and being asked to install an earlier revision of the ROM is hardly an update. He said all he could do is "reset the phone" when we hung up. He asked me to restart my phone when we hung up and when I did, my 3G signal was back and has been back since.

I've been getting texts to update, though.

but but !!

[timmarhy]

micheal moore has told me all about how wonderful canada is and how all it's government control and regulation has made it a paradise!!

Re:but but !!

[amRadioHed]

I think you're confused. His movie was called "Roger & Me", not "Rogers & Me" and it wasn't about the Canadian wireless industry.

Re:but but !!

[timmarhy]

whooooooooshhhh...

Re:but but !!

[amRadioHed]

Nice try.

Re:Android fanboyism

[H0p313ss]

Android fanboys never had a solid reason to claim that Android is more open than iPhone. Sure, it runs (modified) Linux. But that doesn't imply openness.

Well I won't call myself a fanboy since my phone is a Blackberry, but Android is the most open phone platform out there. Name another successful platform for which most of the source code is freely available,whose bug database is publicly accessible and accepts patches?

Re:GSM is not HSDPA, Telus does not have GSM.

[starbugs]

I think you mean HSPA, which has HS-DPA and HS-UPA components, but they are all grouped as HSPA

Yes, I meant HSDPA, not HSPDA.

Does Telus have HSUPA as well?

911 works without a sim card and can't be blocked

[Joe The Dragon]

911 works without a sim card and can't be blocked even on a black listed phone.

I stand corrected

[Wolfier]

Thanks for letting me know Rogers is no longer the GSM monopoly here. Here is some more background information and more of my opinions below.

The bug was, when GPS is turned on, calls to 911 can crash the phone. This bug was fixed in Android 1.6 and subsequent releases, which came out months ago. However, Rogers stated that there'd be no 1.6 updates to their customers (contrary to what Magic users in other countries can do).

Data for all Dream/Magic users went down on Sunday, and will remain down until the update is applied. The reason for data shut down is that, apart from shutting down GPS, which a carrier cannot do remotely, shutting down data is also a work-around for the 911 call issue - so, this way it's guaranteed that 911 calls will always succeed from the moment they activated the block, thus, covering their ass from potential lawsuits.

What's on the update:
1. The 911/GPS crash fix in the main firmware.
2. HTC's new Sense UI made for 1.5.
3. New radio firmware
4. New bootloader firmware

#1 is the only necessary part to fix the 911 issue. #2 is of dubious usefulness to users, especially if it requires a full backup, that Rogers claimed can be done with "3rd party software" - but the software that can fully back the phone up are all root-user-only. How ironic.

#3 and #4 are out of pure user control so customers can no longer unlock or root or run custom firmware. I have no complaint if it's for subsidised phones. However, unsubsidised phones (i.e. those we have paid a full price to buy) are also forced to update, even for people who run custom firmware that *already* has the 911 issue fixed.

So we're given 2 carrots (911 fix and Sense UI) and 2 big sticks (useless control freak firmware updates).

My opinion is, they could have rolled out a fix sooner - if a lone hacker can do it in his spare time, I'm sure a major wireless carrier can do it - the sooner the better, because there are people whose life might be at risk.

Instead, Rogers probably spent a lot of time testing the unnecessary parts of the fix (Radio firmware and Bootloader), and also testing their totally useless "add-ons" (branding, partner bookmarks, unremovable links to Rogers Shop, "Ringback", Ringtone purchases, etc.) - without wasting time testing these unnecessary parts that provide negative values to their customers, especially those using unsubsidised phones, I imagine they could have rolled out the fix sooner - even for only ONE day, and putting less of our lives in danger. In my opinion, it's putting profits higher than customer safety.

They say they cannot support rooted phones, but people are not asking for support. They're only asking to get the service they have paid for - "service" meaning usable bandwidth. Somehow these carriers or some backwards-thinking PHB inside still think they can provide something more than bandwidth, and forcing these extra "services" to unsubsidised phones somehow seem to have a priority even when customer safety is at stake.

Re:I stand corrected

[loconet]

However, unsubsidised phones (i.e. those we have paid a full price to buy) are also forced to update, even for people who run custom firmware that *already* has the 911 issue fixed.

According to this post, for rooted phones with the 911 fix, you can call Rogers and have them restore your data. Are they not doing that anymore?

Re:I stand corrected

[Wolfier]

According to a lot posted on forums, no, they're requiring *everyone* to upgrade (or for those who already have the fix on unsubsidised phones, downgrade).

Apparently they're not doing network resets anymore. I had to social engineer a bit to get mine done.

Re:Android fanboyism

[BhaKi]

Name another successful platform for which most of the source code is freely available,whose bug database is publicly accessible and accepts patches?

Maemo? Openmoko?

Re:Android fanboyism

[H0p313ss]

Name another successful platform for which most of the source code is freely available,whose bug database is publicly accessible and accepts patches?

Maemo? Openmoko?

Maemo is a good one, only on one phone so far though. Openmoko is a joke. (And I have a FreeRunner... running Android)

More discussion on the Android E911 bug

[scdeimos]

There's more info and discussion over here regarding the Android 1.5 firmware and the E911 bug...

Rogers HTC E911 GPS Bug Update

Let's see if we're ready here

[Eightbitgnosis]

Gun, check. Gun pointed at foot, check. Gun fired at foot, check.

Re:Let's see if we're ready here

[canajin56]

Yeah, right. If Rogers decided to rig every tenth phone to explode and kill the user, if it got any mention on the news at all here, it would be that Rogers saved the lives of 90% of their customer base!

Sometimes trolls have salient points

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF seriously... This really shows google is a marketing company and not a real software/product outfit. What kind of idiot releases a cell phone with problems dialing 911?? There is no excuse or defense of any kind possible.

Its amusing people got gphones thinking they would be able to hack the crap out of them only to be locked into a marginal java implementation with a known piss poor GC on an implementation that can't even execute valid java bytecode.

When I do simple searches on google most of what comes back is nonsensical crap which exists only to make money on google adwords. Not only is google turning a blind eye to improving basic search (The situation continues to get worse year after year) they are effectivly promoting all kinds of seedy activity that ruins the network for everyone by letting people make money off of wasting other peoples time.

Calgary? East?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wind is only available in Metropolitan areas in the east right now so it's not an option for any of us in the west.

Since when is Calgary in the East? Calgary was one of the launch cities. There is only one Canadian city larger than Calgary towards the west before you splash into the Pacific Ocean!

Bobby Tables Phone

[Anonymous Coward]

So they take the device ID (which you can alter, according to some post...) and process it?

Mine is "rogers/htc_magic/sapphire/sapphire:1.5/'); DROP TABLE users;/118917:user/release-keys"

Wireless by the Cable Companies

[wwwillem]

Well said!!

Let's hope that the various cable companies like Shaw here in the west and EastLink in the Atlantic are stepping into the cellphone market. Here in Calgary, ten years ago Shaw gave Telus a beating when it came to Fast Internet and currently they make pretty good inroads in the VoIP market.

On the other hand, also the pricing of cable companies seems to go up-and-up with no end in sight. So also they could use some more competition.

Re:Android fanboyism

[timmarhy]

openmoko - FAIL

In all seriousness...

[TangoMargarine]

what gives Rogers the right to force people who are PAYING for their phones to require them to update.

Probably a clause in the contract.* Sounds like a perfect situation to be covered under "...or any other changes to this policy as we deem necessary."

*(which I have of course not read)

Rogers Really Sucks - Try Using Twitpic....

[Vegan Cyclist]

Rogers is pathetic for cell service and what they've done to cripple cell phones.

Anyone on Rogers ever try to use Twitpic? The idiots have devised a system where texting a photo involves Rogers uploading it to their server, and sending out an email with a link to the page it's on...then if you want to download the image, it's several clicks, and then you download a freaking ZIP file if memory serves..... I was actually chatting with someone at Twitpic to try and make it work with Rogers (they *do* display a shrunk version of the pic that can be extracted with some selective code), and i believe he gave up it was so ill conceived.

If you call Rogers to complain, they just go 'huh?' As though Twitter and Twitpic are some obscure, little-used web fad....

Another reason to get an N900

[kurt555gs]

Unlike the "quasi free" Android, Maemo 5 IS free. No one can cut off your root access.

Re:Another reason to get an N900

[Anonymous Coward]

Except, last time I checked, the N900 only works on 2G with most north american carriers, except T-Mobile and possibly the new WIND Mobile in Canada, since they use the 2100 MHz band for 3G. So get a great phone like the N900 but get stuck with only 2G access... makes me sad.

The legal leg is fine.

[Anonymous Coward]

The legal leg is fine. What will happen is that either they'll brinkmanship you in the hope that under the threats you'll give up or as soon as the Small Claims court case is underway, they'll settle out of court.

They'll just hope that people would think "they've got lawyers, so they should know the law right?". Most people think that.

Most people are dead wrong.

Re:911 works without a sim card and can't be block

[Anonymous Coward]

AT LEAST READ THE FUCKING SUMMARY.

oooh fuck me i'm yelling, well booo-hooo wahh wahh

I don't blame them

[Chrisq]

I can't blame them for forcing this update. Firstly they have a legal obligation to ensure that people can contact the emergency services wherever possible. Secondly if they didn't and someone got injured because they could not report an incident they could be severely sued ... like punitive damages.

112

[kingturkey]

Does 112 work? I guess that's only a solution if you know about the problem/figure out why the problem is happening, but it's probably a good idea to be in the habit of using 112 instead of local emergency numbers anyway.

Who did which with the what now?

[Anonymous Coward]

> Months ago, a customer called Rogers

What are the chances?

I know it's a tiny thing, but "contacted" would have been a less ambiguous verb, especially for someone (i.e. everyone) who skims summary.

Me and mine

[6-tew]

I just updated my HTC Magic yesterday. I guess there was a problem. I never encountered it. The big thing here for me is that they updated the UI to the same one that's used on the HTC Hero (Telus BTW). I didn't buy the phone with this stylish, slick badass interface. I bought it with the clunky, basic spec-Android one. It feels like I got a new phone. I guess I'm weird, I like Rogers. They're just as crappy as every other carrier I've ever had.

Android does not require GSM

[mu51c10rd]

Rogers is the only GSM carrier in Canada and so the only choice for Android users

Sprint and Verizon in the US sell Android phones. Do no non-GSM carriers in Canada sell Android phones?

Re:Android does not require GSM

[agallagh42]

Rogers is the only GSM carrier in Canada and so the only choice for Android users

Sprint and Verizon in the US sell Android phones. Do no non-GSM carriers in Canada sell Android phones?

Bell and Telus operate both CDMA and 3G-UMTS networks, and both sell Android phones. The article summary is bunk.

It's simple really. It's all about money.

[Makito]

Contra to the summary, this is not some kind of monopolist ploy for customer domination. It's simple really. It's all about money. The legal team at Rogers realized (or got sued and settled) that in case of a carrier provided phone fails to operate as expected during an emergency, while Rogers having full prior knowledge of this fault and having done nothing, could foreseeably be held for damages and some kind of punitive measure. Car Analogy: You're driving a car that comes with OnStar. A manufacturer fault with OnStar may cause the car to suddenly turn off if you press the "OnStar help" button. Car Manuf issues a recalls. Know that they can't reach all customers with any urgency or certainty, they remotely disable your radio, lights, etc with the expectation that you'll notice those problems immediately and bring your car in for service regardless if you are aware of the recall. (Not exactly the best analogy, but basicly.....)

Is it stupid to ask...

[Anonymous Coward]

...how they detect if you've installed it? The IMEI won't change (i hope ;)) after an update, and they can't seriously just check den Browser-Agent?

CRTC problems

[John Bayko]

Actually, it's the opposite - the CRTC is trying to look relevant by adding layers of bureaucracy to anything it can justify. A friend of mine who works at a telecom company tells me that most carriers would love to have more competitive (and, ultimately, confusing) plans, but every calling plan must go through the CRTC and be approved after a long review, usually ending in rejection. Same goes for cable television rates (mandatory "basic" services and bundles, rather than individual channel subscription, preventing new stations from being made available until competitors are in a position to offer them as well, etc.).

A side note, the company he works for is government owned, and was therefore free from CRTC oversight until a decade or so ago - which is also when it's long distance rates stopped falling so quickly.

There is an argument that some regulation is needed to prevent customer abuse like you see in the U.S, but I think the CRTC goes too far. It's too bad, I expected the Harper government to do something about this, but apparently the "Conservative" in "Conservative Party" is just cosmetic (and this complaint is from someone who voted NDP last election).

Re:CRTC problems

[phred75]

I didn't expect the Conservatives to do a fucking thing on this one! Goodness forbid they tell a Canadian company that they can't fuck over their clients. The NDP and Greens have been the most vocal about making a big change in the Telco industry! The Liberals.... meh I'm sure if you pressured hard enough they would do something.

Up North??

[twoHats]

How about down south here in NH? Where i was told today (by the only dsl carrier i can get - TDS) "Yes - 3Mbs is the fastest available..." - meanwhile (to lazy to url) /. tells me that british telcom is offering some crazy (40Mbs?) speed for around 33USD - wtf??

Free Software

[Anonymous Coward]

Comment Posted on behalf of Richard M Stallman

If all the software in the Android phone were free, users would be
able to pretend they have accepted the "security" patch while not
actually running it. In fact, some of the software in Android is
free. Is that enough free software to make this possible?

rms