Nokia Fears Carriers May Try To Undermine N900

An anonymous reader writes "Nokia is worried that networks may reject selling the N900 because it won't allow them to mess with the operating system. Nokia has previously showed the N900 running a root shell and it appears to use the same interface for IM and phone functions. Meanwhile, Verizon is claiming that 'exclusivity arrangements promote competition and innovation.' Is it too late to explain to people why $99+$60/month is not better than $600+$20/month?"

Comments

Another one for Nokia

[Jurily]

I know where my next phone is coming from.

Re:Another one for Nokia

[Anonymous Coward]

Posting this anonymously to save my butt (sorry Niklas). Saw this prototype yesterday. Really, really impressive. About time Nokia got an iPhone-class phone.

Re:Another one for Nokia

[tsa]

Yes, the new Nokias look to be the first iPhone alternatives that are really interesting. Finally here we have a phone that is not tied to a certain provider. Finally a phone that I can just buy without a SIM card and use with whatever provider I want. Here in Europe we have been used to that for years and years, but suddenly Apple itroduced the moronic American system here and all hell broke loose. I hope Nokia can hold its ground against the nagging providers.

Re:Another one for Nokia

[lokedhs]

I'm not so sure you can call the unavailability of a single phone for "all hell breaking loose". Also, several countroes in Europe sell even the iphone unlocked, since they have to by law.

Re:Another one for Nokia

[cruff]

Indeed, this looks to potentially be a really nice platform for remote system administration as well as a phone. Too bad the first version isn't configured with the frequencies for AT&T's faster data network.

Re:Another one for Nokia

[SerpentMage]

Even with the unlocked iPhone you have to keep relogging into the f***g device...

Here I am in Switzerland and there are two providers: Orange, and Swisscom. Swisscom refuses to unlock the device at any cost. Orange sells you an unlocked device, but the operator very carefully said, "be careful it is not all you think it is."

So I called Apple and asked what gives?

Every time you switch SIM card you need to relogin into itunes to reregister your device.

I asked, oh you mean everytime you put in a new card, once right?

WRONG!!! No everytime you switch SIM cards you need to relogin... Otherwise the iPhone will not work.

This is completely bogus and is why I am buying a Nokia N900 and not iPhone. In fact I have not yet bought a smartphone because each smart phone outside of the N900 seem to have one lock in or another.

Re:Another one for Nokia

[spearway]

I have 4 sim cards in my wallet (ATT, Fido, Vodafone(AU) and SFR) and I change them whenever I need to. No reboot, No iTunes. Just switch wait a few seconds for the network discovery and off you go. It even reconfigures the phone features on the fly, letting you send MMS in Canada but not in the US.

Re:Another one for Nokia

[Ihmhi]

The first phone I ever used was a Nokia. The standard black-and-white screen, as stylish as a deformed paving stone, and no antenna Nokia phone.

And you know what? I loved the damn thing. I'm not a huge texter, but texting on that phone was snappy. Instant response from the keys. Nowadays I try to text on my shitty Samsung and it drops key presses so "Hey what's up?" comes out something like "Hfyw hat s up!". I don't think it's a good thing that I type faster than my phone could keep up, when a dinky little budget Nokia phone did just fine 5 years ago.

Re:Another one for Nokia

[Pascal Sartoretti]

Here I am in Switzerland and there are two providers: Orange, and Swisscom. Swisscom refuses to unlock the device at any cost. Orange sells you an unlocked device, but the operator very carefully said, "be careful it is not all you think it is."

And redsn0w unlocks it for you for free. Sure it is not official, but Apple doesn't seem to really care about it. And my iPhone is working nicely on Sunrise, Switzerland's 3rd operator (the one which doesn't sell the iPhone).

Re:Another one for Nokia

[Ilgaz]

Speak to a device developer and ask why would he/she release iPhone version of his app while Nokia doesn't have such fascist app store which anonymous people are responsible for your months of work to be released or not.

You will be surprised at how much there is to blame on Nokia rather than Apple, iPhone, trendy developers.

They acquire Trolltech, maker of Qt, right when Symbian owners start to party hoping for KDE4 quality apps, they release first Qt S60 demo in EXE form and say "they can't promise a Linux developer kit, emulator doesn't function". This is just ONE example.

How do you think Apple dares to act like that in consumer/enterprise smart phone market? They don't have real rivals. If you acquire state of the art multi platform SDK and keep releasing .NET junk, don't spare a couple of millions to have a working developer kit on Linux/OS X, you aren't a rival.

Now we are supposed to think Linux developers will jump to Nokia for releasing a Linux phone which comes with GTK toolkit while it is clear that it moves to Qt soon unless they completely lost their mind.

As I said, speak to some developers and you will get a broader view. Sad thing is, other device owners are effected by Nokia not being a real rival too.

Re:Another one for Nokia

[Ozmrsparkle]

This is interesting, but it doesn't seem to match what I have seen.

Last week, as an experiment I switched the (Sing-Tel) SIM in my unlocked iPhone (purchased in Singapore unlocked) with one from another company (M1). It worked straight away. I actually made a call to test. I certainly didn't log into itunes.... Admittedly I was in Australia at the time, so there may have been something to that (perhaps the global roam overrides the lock?) but I would have thought it would have made it less likely to work, not more....

So what gives?

Re:Another one for Nokia

[setatakahashi]

China?

Re:Another one for Nokia

[Anonymous Coward]

I have no experience with operator locked, then unlocked iPhones, but here's my two cents...

My previous phone was the iPhone (older 2G-model) that I unlocked myself. It worked perfectly, and still works as my wife "stole" it from me after playing with it for a day...

So I was forced to buying a new one. So, I bought my current iPhone 3G from Belgium. They don't sell operator locked phones there and my iPhone is thus unlocked (by Apple) from day one. After activating it once through iTunes, I've used several operator's SIM-cards in it (Finnish and US ones) and never had to reconnect to iTunes for that. Naturally all my SIM cards have PIN on them now and my phone has a lock code itself, so every time I change the SIM card I have to enter these both, but no connection to computer required for that of course.

I don't think your phone is "totally unlocked" even though operator tells you so...

Re:Another one for Nokia

[RivieraKid]

I certainly didn't log into itunes.... Admittedly I was in Australia at the time, so there may have been something to that (perhaps the global roam overrides the lock?) but I would have thought it would have made it less likely to work, not more....

So what gives?

By default, data roaming is disabled so while you were on a non-home carrier, iTunes wouldn't be able to even attempt to login.

Re:Another one for Nokia

[Ozmrsparkle]

Sure, but isn't the hypothesis that for each change in SIM it requires a re-registration with itunes? This doesn't seem to be the case.

In anycase, I re-tested today back in Singapore - it definitely didn't require re-log in to itunes....

Re:Another one for Nokia

[RivieraKid]

Absolutely, but if we're working on the theory that a reauthentication may be required, even in specific circumstances, I'd say it is reasonable to assume that you'd only be prompted if it were possible. At the very least you'd get the annoying "Enable roaming" alert.

My next phone

[A beautiful mind]

I really hope European carriers will carry the N900, because I'm planning on getting one. It looks really sweet for basic phone + capable mobile computing device with apt-get usage that I'd like to use it for.

Re:My next phone

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure that if I buy one, I will not even know if my carriers is "carrying" the N900, whatever that means. I would buy it in a shop. And then put a sim card in it.

Re:My next phone

[raving griff]

The issue here is that the phone might not be available in the first place. A network that "carries" a phone is one that provides network service to it, so if networks choose not to carry this phone, you won't be able to do what you just described.

Re:My next phone

[Anonymous Coward]

If they do that, then you file a complaint with the FCC, wait 3 years, follow up, follow up, have your lawyer threaten the FCC, and finally sue AT&T. Yes,it's already been litigated.

Re:My next phone

[Jurily]

I really hope European carriers will carry the N900

They will. In Hungary, for example, the mere idea of a phone with a tampered OS is ridiculous.

Re:My next phone

[RalphSleigh]

So buy the phone and put your sim card in it.. I think what you mean is the carriers won't subsidise the phone, so you may have to cough up the full hardware price.

Re:My next phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Only an american (no offense) can think something like that.
In Europe carriers subscribe to a common standard for telephony that dates back to when the GSM was invented.
There is *no* concept of "carrying" a phone in Europe, either the phone conforms to the network standard or it doesn't (and if it doesn't nobody sells it).
*all* you need is a SIM card for the basic service, and a data plan if you want 3G stuff.
Of course you can't do 3G if your phone does not support the frequencies and standards, but they are *standards* meaning the only limiting factor is whether your phone is built to use them.

Welcome to a freer and more honest (though not as it could be) telecom industry.

Re:My next phone

[Anonymous Coward]

I did some research a while ago and concluded that phones are never actually subsidised. the cost is always calculated and spread into the monthly payments you make so i now opt for buying the phone outright (its an expensive one-off outlay) then use a monthly sim plan that means im not locked into the contract for 12,18 or even 24 months.

Re:My next phone

[bhtooefr]

But, in the US, you won't get your plan any cheaper, at least from what I've seen, by bringing your own phone.

Re:My next phone

[Eunuchswear]

I don't get it.

Who gives a fuck whether the networks "carry it".

You want the phone - buy it. Then it's yours. You do what you want with it.

This isn't 1966 you know.

Re:My next phone

[crazyjimmy]

If you prepay, you'll end up paying a lot less. My plan costs me about 35$ bucks a month for voice + text. No weird taxes or hidden fees.

Re:My next phone

[Z00L00K]

Here you can get to generic phone stores and buy your phone.

No need to go to a store operated by the carrier.

An exclusive phone for a telecom operator is like having exclusive tools for your brand of car.

Re:My next phone

[khraz]

A carrier blocking any phone that is not sim-locked and is technologically compatible with the cellular network? Is that even legal? This sounds preposterous, but I live in Europe...

Re:My next phone

[Bigjeff5]

Where I live, you can't use a phone from another carrier, SIM card or no. The only alternative is to have an outside address you can use and get Verizon or something. It sucks.

Re:My next phone

[Eunuchswear]

Where do you live? I thought the USSR had collapsed?

Re:My next phone

[Bigjeff5]

Good 'ol US of A, one of the 50 states in the union, and yet 50 years after statehood we are often still considered "overseas" like we're in a different goddamn country.

Care to guess? I'll give you a hint, we've been pissing off Texas since 1958.

Re:My next phone

[rohan972]

In Australia, what you get is to keep the plan you are on without being locked in to a contract. I have a cheap plan that isn't available anymore if you don't already have it. I easily recover the cost of paying for my own phone.

Re:My next phone

[Bigjeff5]

It happens all the time where I live. We have two major local carriers, one with CDMA service (superior call quality, fewer dropped calls) for which the phone must be designed for CDMA - there are no sim cards for these phones, the other a GSM network which uses locked down sim cards. Just plugging your sim card into a 3rd party phone will get you nowhere, it won't work without modifications from the cell company. Said company refuses to modify phones they didn't sell, so you're SOL unless you buy it from them. Same with CDMA phones, it may be technically possible to configure your 3rd party phone to run on the CDMA network, but the cell company just refuses. No sorry, we don't do that.

AT&T is gaining presence here thanks to the iPhone, but they aren't exactly the people to go to if you don't want to be "locked in". Verizon is available - if you have a billing address in a state they sell service in, because they don't sell it here. T-Mobile is not even an option, only the military gets to use them.

Re:My next phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you recently lose a governor?

Re:My next phone

[cdrguru]

Sure it is silly, but there are no "standards" in the cell phone business in most of the world.

What does this have to do with Verizon? Well, they do funny things to their cell tower systems as well. Maybe not as unique as IDEN, but they modify the standard software and this requires modifications to the phone software to work on it. So trying to use just any CDMA phone on Verizon doesn't work - specifically switching between Sprint and Verizon requires a new, Verizon capable phone.

I went to Australia with a CDMA Treo. No carrier there could make it work, even though a few of them had tried extensively in the past. CDMA is rather customized by each carrier to work with the software they commission on their handsets.

Now GSM is somewhat different, until you start adding 3G and other features to it. Then the carriers start to have their own flavor as well. Good luck getting your 3G phone to work on just any carrier.

Might it be nice if it didn't work this way? Maybe. Verizon I know thinks their modifications give them a coverage edge that is unmatched in the US. So it is unlikely you are going to ever convince the carriers to give it up when there is a competitive advantage to be gained.

Re:My next phone

[ColdWetDog]

Care to guess? I'll give you a hint, we've been pissing off Texas since 1958.

Mexico?

Re:My next phone

[tolan-b]

Not true. 3G is a standard, you can use any GSM 3G phone on any GSM 3G network, provided the phone supports the frequencies for the country, and provided the phone isn't locked (restricted to a single carrier). The latter's still not an incompatibility, it's an explicit lock that can be undone. If you buy a phone without a contract it's never locked.

Re:My next phone

[Kumiorava]

To be honest I think this should be main focus for FCC right now. Why they allow this oligopoly to exist? If the $20-$30/month subsidy for the phone was taken out it would be easy for customers to save money on using phones longer or getting them from second hand market. Prepaid or pay as you go plans are not currently competitive as well, the pricing is even worse than with a contract for average users. Other thing with pay as you go plans is that you are required to pay for at least 250 (or something close to that) minutes per month even if you don't use them.

I have two two lines right now, one from AT&T where I pay close to $100/month even if I don't use it much. I have only 450 minutes with iPhone plan, some text messages and international calling plan. This plan is just about the lowest I could get for my iPhone. Second line is DNA Finland where I pay 0.66EUR/month for 0 minutes and 0 messages. If I use the line my call time and SMS that are around 7 cents per minute/message, other plans with higher number of discounted minute prices are available. Data is unlimited with 10EUR/month, but I don't use it right now so I don't have it. With DNA I can buy subsidized phone with $30/month, but I choose not to.

Re:My next phone

[JAlexoi]

T-Mobile is not even an option, only the military gets to use them.

Aaaa zo ze Shermans have taken ove' your military communications? Zat ist newz to me :)

Re:My next phone

[e4g4]

you can use any GSM 3G phone on any GSM 3G network, provided the phone supports the frequencies for the country

Really, it's provided the phone supports the frequencies for the country *and* the provider's network. Case in point: an unlocked iPhone works great for making calls and using edge on T-Mobile's network, but (in the US, at least) 3G is impossible, as the iPhone does not support the frequency that T-Mobile uses for 3G.

Re:My next phone

[Mulder3]

It's not technologically possible for a carrier to block non sim-locked phones, there isn't any command on a gsm network to query the simlock status of a phone...

Re:My next phone

[welshie]

You will find that the carriers don't really get a choice. It's got a SIM card slot. You buy the device, from Nokia, or a reseller, then you go to your preferred 3G network provider, and get a SIM-only contract or pay-as-you-go SIM from them. Job done. SIM only contracts give far better value for money, and tend to only by month-on-month rolling contracts, not silly tie-you-in-for-years contracts. Yes, it may cost quite a bit of money up front that way, but that's the real cost of the device. I'm sure you might be able to get some sensible credit deals on it, or even a bank loan. Once you buy it, it's yours. You can do with it what you like. Swap the SIM for another network - sure. Sell it on after twenty seconds - sure.

Re:My next phone

[oji-sama]

I'm sorry, I've read stuff like "Since switching I've had fewer dropped calls" here a few times and I haven't really been able to deduce what those things are. Could someone (somehow the writes seem to be from USA?) define it for me, please? I can understand if an area has no reception, but I don't understand the word 'fewer' in the context. Do these things happen if you're in one location, or way outside of cities?

Re:My next phone

[Pascal Sartoretti]

In Europe carriers subscribe to a common standard for telephony that dates back to when the GSM was invented. There is *no* concept of "carrying" a phone in Europe, either the phone conforms to the network standard or it doesn't (and if it doesn't nobody sells it). *all* you need is a SIM card for the basic service, and a data plan if you want 3G stuff.

This is 90% correct for the iPhone : a few of its proprietary features require an explicit support from the operator : at least visual voicemail and push notifications. The non-support of the latter is a shame, because push notifications even work on the iPod touch, which isn't even a phone....

Re:My next phone

[centuren]

If you prepay, you'll end up paying a lot less. My plan costs me about 35$ bucks a month for voice + text. No weird taxes or hidden fees.

This is true, however the main appeal of the N900 is for people who also want a data plan. American carriers subsidize data heavy phones like the iPhone by limiting what data options there are and generally restricting consumers to an expensive "unlimited" data plan. If an American wants to use the N900 to it's mobile potential, then the data plan required will cost the same as it costs to someone who bought a subsidized phone.

Unlike the summary's take on things, it's more along the lines of $99+$60/mo versus $600+$60/mo.

Re:My next phone

[loufoque]

a few of its proprietary features require an explicit support from the operator : at least visual voicemail and push notifications

IMAP push requires nothing of the carrier, it only requires your IMAP server to support it.

Re:My next phone

[bhtooefr]

The same applies in the US, at least on Sprint, but I can get a subsidized phone (and yes, renew the contract,) and if that phone doesn't require a plan change, I stay on the old plan (and sometimes the necessary plan changes are made - for example, I had a 1xRTT phone, which used $7.50/mo Vision (their 1xRTT service,) and then moved to an EvDO phone. Back then, Sprint policy was that if you had Vision, and moved to an EvDO phone, they would grandfather you into the ($15/mo) Power Vision (EvDO service) at the $7.50/mo rate you were paying.)

Re:My next phone

[bhtooefr]

Except at least from what I've seen, the prepaid "plans" end up costing more than postpaid if you use more than about 30 minutes or so a month, IIRC.

The only real reasons to go prepaid, rather than a $30/mo basic plan:

1. So you can get a new phone (rather than someone's ancient brick) you can call 911 with, which is a free call
2. So you can get a phone without signing a contract (minors can't sign contracts) or passing a credit check

Re:My next phone

[Mulder3]

you can use any GSM 3G phone on any GSM 3G network, provided the phone supports the frequencies for the country

Really, it's provided the phone supports the frequencies for the country *and* the provider's network.

FALSE!!! The phone doesn't have to explicitly support the provider's network... Just have to support the frequency used by the provider...

Re:My next phone

[Anonymous Coward]

The most likely reason for your CDMA phone not working in Australia is

The CDMA Network has been shutdown for over a year now..........

3G works fine in Aus, as long as your phone supports your providers frequency
There are 4 3G frequencies in use in Aus - 850 MHz, 900 MHz, 1900 MHz and 2100 MHz
The current bunch of Phones only support 3 frequencies - if your providers base station is on the 4th - guess how much signal you get.

Re:My next phone

[skrolle2]

You got it all wrong, in Europe, the carriers are not the primary phone vendors and there are almost no exclusivity deals. You can buy phones in regular electronics stores or from webshops or from the carriers' own stores. You can usually mix and match phones and subsidized plans any way you want. There are occasionally marketing campaigns where a carrier is promoting a specific phone model with a specific subsidized plan, but you can almost always buy the same phone without the plan or without that carrier.

This might also seem crazy to you, but over here, Nokia themselves have a webshop where they sell all their phones. Here's the N900: http://shop.nokia.se/nokia-se/product.aspx?sku=6958233.

I saw the quote from Verizon in the summary, that exclusivity deals promote innovation, it's so obviously and hilariously wrong if you've seen what the phone market is over here, but if all you've ever seen is how it works in the US, then you might fall for it.

Re:My next phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Not entirely true. Carriers can lock out certain devices from their network. I have an old symbian phone that a danish carrier will not let onto their network for some reason. Maybe it was too open.

Re:My next phone

[A beautiful mind]

I live in Hungary. ;-)

I wouldn't say the idea is "ridiculous", but it would definitely raise some eyebrows.

Re:My next phone

[Pohket]

... the other a GSM network which uses locked down sim cards. Just plugging your sim card into a 3rd party phone will get you nowhere, it won't work without modifications from the cell company. ...

Actually, plugging a sim into a 3rd party phone (not from a carrier store) usually gets you network access... No modifications required! Because, you see, that's what Unlocked is... SIM cards aren't locked down, but rather the cell phones themselves at the Carrier's request

Re:My next phone

[cervice]

Where I live, you can't use a phone from another carrier, SIM card or no. The only alternative is to have an outside address you can use and get Verizon or something. It sucks.

Are we talking here about a 3rd world country !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re:My next phone

[RMH101]

Kind of. The EU uses GSM, which has the obvious advantage of separating handset hardware from the Subscriber Identity Module. Still, most phones sold are subsidised, and there are tie-ins (O2 having the iPhone, T-Mobile having the G1, etc). However, you can and always have been able to buy unlocked SIM-free handsets, plug in your SIM and away you go.
I've been doing this for years through a combination of gadget-lust, an obsession with smartphones, and years of a work-paid-for-sim-card. If you want to get an idea of what's out there go see www.expansys.com and check the UK site (no affiliation, they're just a good, big reseller).

Re:My next phone

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, good ol' USA

Re:My next phone

[J1Dopeman]

Actually the prepaid plans are a lot less than postpaid unless you want data. I've got straight talk for $33 a month and it gives me 1000 minutes and 1000 text, with 30mb of data. A comparable postpaid plan would be much, much higher. Straight talk only has 3 ok, but not great phones. There's also PagePlus which will give you unlimited talk and text, with 20mb of data for ~44 a month. With them you can use almost any cdma phone. A postpaid plan would be about double that and you'd have a 2-year contract, but hey you'd get like $100 off your phone price...

Great pitch

[Shin-LaC]

He also said the phone might not sell well because it's only the fourth iteration in their five-step plan, and people might wait for the fifth, which is going to be the real deal. Hasn't this genius heard of the Osborne effect?

Re:Great pitch

[A beautiful mind]

Yeah he sounded really weird. Almost as if he wouldn't like this phone to sell at all. Why would anyone trying to sell a phone do that?

Re:Great pitch

[Plug]

The fourth iteration (Maemo Fremantle) has a UI built on Hildon/GTK+; the fifth (Maemo Harmattan), a UI built on Qt. I've read 4Q 2010 or 1Q 2011, so app developers have to consider whether or not to use the community-supported Qt API on the existing device, which will become "the" OS in 2011, or build something on GTK+, Maemo/Nokia-supported now, which will become community-supported in Harmattan.

Re:Great pitch

[TheRaven64]

I won't buy one because, as soon as the N800 and N810 were released, Nokia immediately stopped bothering to support the 770, which was only about a year old. Even Apple doesn't drop support for products that quickly. If I'd paid anything like the full price for the 770, I'd be quite upset, but as it is I just know not to buy Nokia's Maemo products in future.

Re:Great pitch

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit.

They released two more versions as "hacker editions" -- backports of the new, N8x0-only software to the 770s dated CPU. No, not everything works perfectly, and they weren't exactly pushed out quickly, but second-class support != no support.

Moreover, with the N8x0/N9x0 transition, they're making obvious good-faith efforts to allow community maintenance of the old OS (although this is limited due to IP issues, they're actually working to resolve these), as well as providing significant support to a community-run backport of the new OS to the old hardware (which is going quite well). The latter is especially auspicious, as a community-run backport means you never have to worry about some corporation arbitrarily ending support, whether after 1 year or 10 years.

Re:Great pitch

[Anonymous Coward]

This is especially true in this case.
We already know the next device will be based on Qt. Why Nokia would care about a device based on GTK when Qt is available?

Re:Great pitch

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. There's a hackers edition (from Nokia!), you *can* install the N800 OS on the N770, it even run's, it's just a question if you want to, it's pretty slow.

Re:Great pitch

[lixica]

But, if it's as open as they say it is won't you be able to install Harmattan once it comes out?

Re:Great pitch

[muelas]

Indeed, I had the same impression. I have an N800 which does allow you to upgrade to OS2008, but when you try things like the fennec web browser its just painfully slow and only seems to be optimised for the the N810. Its really sad because the Mozilla browser is so frustrating compared to WebKit on say the iPhone or Android handsets.

Having been bitten by the N800, I will most definitely not be spending almost twice as much again on the N900. While I really like Nokia hardware, their software does not appeal in the slightest, and the screenshots of the latest version don't seem all that different.

Re:Great pitch

[EvilNTUser]

I was wondering what the hell he was thinking too. He may have been pissed off about people fawning over the iPhone and wanted to point out how Nokia's five step plan started in 2004, and then took his comment too far. Big mistake in my opinion, but he was fortunately talking to developers rather than users. Still, technological progress should come as no surprise, so it doesn't change anything as long as the general public doesn't get the wrong impression.

They also have a real need to manage expectations, though. The N900 will lack a couple of features people expect on Nokia smartphones, because they apparently ran out of time porting things. For example, it will ship with routing, but voice nav isn't ready. I've also heard a rumor that MMS support required a kernel patch that wasn't accepted in time. No big deal, but no one wants millions of pissed off S60 converts who switched before their favorite feature was ported, even though Maemo does everything else better.

Re:Great pitch

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyway the 770 was always a skunkworks, beta-live device and I think most of its users knew that. The UI was laggy as all hell. Still makes a great ebook reader but... the speed of the 900's demos have me drooling like I haven't in a few years. :P

If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[Anonymous Coward]

Finally a company gets it! We want a phone we can hack LEGALLY, that doesn't have Steve Jobs giant head staring at us 24x7 telling us what we can and cannot do with it. If they can really keep the carriers from imposing idiotic restrictions of their own, this will be the phone to beat.

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[FooAtWFU]

So, you're saying you want the HTC Dream?

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[Darkness404]

The N900 is -far- superior to the HTC Dream. Lets see here, the HTC Dream ships with 192 MB of RAM, the N900 ships with 256 MB of RAM. The HTC Dream ships with 256 MB of Flash and a MicroSD expansion, the N900 ships with 32 GB of Flash and a MicroSD expansion, The HTC Dream has a screen resolution of 480×320, the N900 has a resolution of 800×480. The HTC Dream uses a 3.2 megapixel camera while the N900 uses a 5.0 megapixel camera. The HTC Dream is without a doubt inferior to the N900.

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[Anonymous Coward]

The N900 is -far- superior to the HTC Dream. Lets see here, the HTC Dream ships with 192 MB of RAM, the N900 ships with 256 MB of RAM. The HTC Dream ships with 256 MB of Flash and a MicroSD expansion, the N900 ships with 32 GB of Flash and a MicroSD expansion, The HTC Dream has a screen resolution of 480Ã--320, the N900 has a resolution of 800Ã--480. The HTC Dream uses a 3.2 megapixel camera while the N900 uses a 5.0 megapixel camera.

The HTC Dream sends one of Nokia's men to the hospital, the Nokia sends one of HTC's to the morgue?

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[cheesybagel]

Does the N900 fit into my shirt pocket?

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[Anonymous Coward]

If, "cheesybagel", you're a fatass American, then yes. It does.

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[Anonymous Coward]

Specs say 3.5 inch (diagonal) screen at a 16:9 ratio.

I'm too lazy to do the trig at the moment, but it makes the phone most likely almost exactly the same size as the iPhone.

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[FooAtWFU]

All this and more I will readily believe! But the AC's criteria were more modest: "a phone we can hack LEGALLY, that doesn't have Steve Jobs giant head staring at us 24x7 telling us what we can and cannot do with it."

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Oh Anonymous Coward. He isn't "staring", he's "watching over you with the stern benevolence of a strong father".

Some people.

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[Anonymous Coward]

If they can really keep the carriers from imposing idiotic restrictions of their own, this will be the phone to beat.

In everything except market-share.

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[entgod]

What size is your shirt pocket? maemo.nokia.com says the dimensions are 110.9 Ã-- 59.8 Ã-- 18 mm and 19.55mm for the thickest part.

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[entgod]

Should've read my message after preview, the Ã--'s should of course be *'s. Is there a reason for slashdot breaking unicode so badly? :P

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[RedK]

You have a root shell on the N900 without having to jailbreak it. What more could you want ?

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[elashish14]

Finally a company gets it! We want a phone we can hack LEGALLY, that doesn't have Steve Jobs giant head staring at us 24x7 telling us what we can and cannot do with it. If they can really keep the carriers from imposing idiotic restrictions of their own, this will be the phone to beat.

Now vote with your dollar and buy it

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. Look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP5R-5NX1BE

About the same size as an iPhone except 800x480 screen, and a hell of a lot better OS - and an ARM CPU.

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[Anonymous Coward]

when i bought a nokia e71 it had a silent camera. they updated the firmware to include a camera click that can't be turned off (trust me i tried, silent profiles, registry settings, warning tones off and a 100 other methods that had worked in the past). its not illegal to have a quiet camera in ireland. they have just made it harder and harder to remove this annoying fucking feature.

so if thats their friendly to hacker attitude they can go fuck themselves!

gave the e71 to a friend who said that the camera click wouldn't bother him. heard this week that he's taken a picture of a book in a book shop in germany and the extra loud click made every person for about 20 feet look over in his direction. he now hates the fucking noise.

sorry for the rant. its a niche thing (about 10% of people i know hate the click noise) but i really hate that level of dumbness that made a really good os into an unusable (for me anyway) piece of shit.

at the start of the year i was looking forward to the n97 and would definitely have bought this n900. now no more nokias ever.

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[Darkness404]

Yes there actually is http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1350401&cid=29244185

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[entgod]

Oo, I was unaware of that.
This should probably be modded up as informative

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[Anonymous Coward]

As others have already pointed out: it's not going to happen. Example: the only service in my area is Verizon. The fact that I can use the unlocked n900 with T-Mobile or AT&T does not help me; Verizon won't allow the device on their network unless they cripple it first.

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[VJ42]

when i bought a nokia e71 it had a silent camera. they updated the firmware to include a camera click that can't be turned off (trust me i tried, silent profiles, registry settings, warning tones off and a 100 other methods that had worked in the past).

My DSi has a noisy camera as well; IIRC it even says in the manual that you can't turn the 'click' sound off. I get around this by plugging in my earphones to disable the speaker; couldn't you do the same with your phone?

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[GaryOlson]

A true PDA geek would get a PDA holster.

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[Pascal Sartoretti]

We want a phone we can hack LEGALLY, that doesn't have Steve Jobs giant head staring at us 24x7 telling us what we can and cannot do with it.

I always thought that hacking was more fun when it was illegal.

You must be american to be worried about the legality of playing with hardware that belongs to you...

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[DMoylan]

tried it. didn't work. as i said i tried everything. one of my hates with the e71 was the location and size of the headphone jack. non standard size mounted 1/3 of the way down the side. such a bad place to put the jact if the phone is going to be in a holster or pocket. but if it had of worked i would have made a jack that fitted flush to eliminate that stupid fucking noise.

here's the thing. i almost never make voice calls from my phone. i would have left a headset plugged in 24 7 if it did work.

i could take the device apart and remove the speaker.

but it comes down to time wasted.

when i had a 3650 i just turned it off.
when i had n70 i just switched the profile to silent
when i had a e61i i set warning tones to off - 10 minutes finding this option.
when i got the e71 i also set warning tones off.

i shouldn't have to waste time finding the new way to turn off an unwanted feature!
i shouldn't have to worry every time i update firmware that they are going to remove a feature that i want! the firmware notice made no comment that they were turning on this noise for any reason.
i have commited no crime, why am i been treated like a criminal? just because a tiny minority are using camera phones to take pictues up womens skirts doesn't mean that you should treat all your customers like criminals.

if i wanted to i could use the silent video recording ability to do the same anyway! it's a dumb stupid retarded way of dealing with the problem. i hate stupid dumb retarded rules. they're like a red rag to a bull for me.

my iphone can be made silent. it's an inferior phone/os compared to the nokia in almost every way. yet now it is my primary phone. of course with the google voice app debacle (i don't make voice calls remember but its the principal) i won't be buying the next version. so its off to android for me. suspect the camera there will be noisy... sigh!

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[mgblst]

I see, so it is slightly better. Definitely not far superior. Or you must get really excited every 6 months.

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a similar grievance with my N82. It doesn't make a shutter sound when in silent mode, but it flashes an annoying red light, presumably for the same reasons.
I've installed the cCam app, which lets me take (somewhat poor quality) pictures quietly without going into silent mode, but it still flashes the red light.

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, what he's saying is that the HTC Dream is already a phone that can be legally hacked, is linux based, open source, etc.

Of course the n900 is superior to the Dream, the Dream is a year old. There are several Android based handsets set to release very soon that have some superior stats to the n900. The HTC Hero already has more RAM.

Re:If true, this is now the phone to beat.

[alexo]

The N900 is -far- superior to the HTC Dream.

How about the newer HTC Touch Pro2?
Or, for that matter, the Samsung OmniaPRO or Acer M900?

On a 12 month contract it is

[Anonymous Coward]

60*12 + 100 = 820
20*12 + 600 = 840

Re:On a 12 month contract it is

[Jurily]

So for $20 extra, you get to use all the features of your phone.

Re:On a 12 month contract it is

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought all the low price promo contracts were almost always 2 years in length

60*24+100 = 1540
20*24+600 = 1080

Re:On a 12 month contract it is

[agnosticnixie]

And if it's sold in Canada, Rogers will probably offer it with a "sell your soul" 3 years option, a "moron" 2 years option where you pay its normal unlocked price and are stuck with a 2 years contract, and a "haha sucker" option where it will cost 50% more than buying it unlocked would to get it prepaid, but for some reason it won't be sold unlocked in Canada (or show up more than a week every other season on newegg.ca's inventory) so will have to be bought abroad on a trip to avoid the ridiculous duties you get if you're a simple traveller vs a multinational corp.

Re:On a 12 month contract it is

[Anonymous Coward]

I stick to my 1 * 12 + 0 = 12 Euro / year contract.

Re:On a 12 month contract it is

[ThePhilips]

My contract is cheaper: 0€ * 12 = 0€ / year .... LOL. I'm on prepaid.

Re:On a 12 month contract it is

[suffe]

I am way to lazy to even point you to an url that describes the 'time value of money' and explain what you did wrong in your calculations. I'll just ask you this highly theoretical question: Would you rather have $1000 in your hand today or next month? The rest is left as an exercise to the reader. I swear, people on slashdot sometimes make me actually regret getting a degree in economics. It's the same feeling as when you watch computer programing/hackers in Hollywood movies. Makes you slap your forehead and go 'doh'!

Re:On a 12 month contract it is

[Anonymous Coward]

sorry, i'm trying to follow this -- what exactly is the $20 /month? is this a pay-go plan or something? i would love the option 600 + 20/mo but being in the u.s./canada i am wary of such an option existing.

Perhaps it is.

[John Hasler]

> Is it too late to explain to people why $99+$60/month is not better than
> $600+$20/month?"

For some it may be. Why do you think you know what is best for everyone?

Re:Perhaps it is.

[caffeinemessiah]

For some it may be. Why do you think you know what is best for everyone?

I think the GP was referring to basic math. Assuming that Verizon ties you into a 1 year contract, which is probably the LEAST we could expect for a shiny new phone (more like 2 years), then you end up breaking losing money under the GP's scenario. With the more realistic two year contract -- and let's face it, Verizon is not going to let you walk away on a prepaid plan with the N900 -- you lose a decent chunk of money. Since I think most people, according to recent polls, LIKE money, it's probably better for them.

If you feel that Verizon CEOs are underfed, on the other hand, by all means go ahead and pay more....

Re:Perhaps it is.

[pla]

For some it may be. Why do you think you know what is best for everyone?

Although not explicitly stated, (at least) the first option comes with a 2-year contract. Thus, it only takes some very simple math to figure out that in two years, the first option comes out to $1539, and the second option to $1080.

If you'd really like to spend more, feel free to send me the extra $500 and we'll call it good.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[darjen]

How could $500 extra over a forced two year commitment possibly be better for some people?

Re:Perhaps it is.

[badboy_tw2002]

And where do I sign up for the magical $20 contract? Show me one where I get the hours I need + internet (and oh yeah, in the US) and I'm there. Generally the ones without a contract are no better than the one with. It would make sense if plans seemed to go down over two years, but because of the lack of competition they don't. So in the end you might as well get the contract and the phone - you're paying out the nose either way.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[zbrewski]

Ah basic math schmath... Who needs math when there is a flashy advertisement here, there, left right, shiny happy people with their 'buy one get one free' $99 port your number sign here no credit no problem if you breath you can have it ... plans...

And for us remaining geeks good luck finding prepaid data "plans" in year of two... Let me peek into my futur-o-scope ... I see no reasonable prepaid data rates, not now, not soon, and most likely not ever (in this land of the free, not sure about over there in socialist EU)... for that is evil... to have a prepaid data, payable by kb, on your unlocked or (gasp!) linux driven GSM device... to check your email or other minor data xfer- for you are no good if you want only that - for you have to stream, to download, to navigate, to upload movies, and for that my dear consumer, you need PLAN...

Re:Perhaps it is.

[oh2]

The lack of competition in the US is funny from a distance. In Sweden we have 4 major carriers with their own nets, plus a number of virtual carriers that buy capacity from the majors. And Sweden is a horrible socialist country where the bad guv'mint decides everything for us...or something...

Re:Perhaps it is.

[Xiterion]

It allows them to buy the shiny toys they otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford because they lack the basic self discipline to save up $600 to pay for the item. They also have no concept of the cost of something that has monthly payments.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[Darkness404]

Because in this economy a lot of us simply don't have the cash due to increased savings in case your job is the next to go or slumping sales of your product. Also some of us also have short-term investments that we expected to liquidate without much trouble but in the current economy either they lost value (stocks), didn't lose value but are now hard to sell (real estate), or items that weren't investments but hard to sell luxury items (such as a third car). Plus seriously, $20 a month for a plan? Someone tell me the network that has A) unlimited data B) A decent speed on their data C) in the USA and D) also has enough text messages or minutes so you can actually use your phone.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[maxume]

I think part of the idea behind the comment is that if more people were interested in buying their phones up front, the carriers would have more reason to offer cheaper services, with less tie up. As it stands, they have convinced the American consumer that the appropriate cell phone plan is the one that they never fully use, and agree to for an extended period of time.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[darjen]

If the economy is really that bad and you can't afford it, $60/month will hurt a lot more than $20/month. You'll will make up the subsidized difference in only a few months. Unless you expect to be solvent again in a few months, it's a pretty bad deal. Basic math, people.

I have a $20/month 3g data plan from ATT for my nokia e71 that I bought outright for $330. I asked them what the lowest possible cost was, which was some wierd thing they don't advertise. Then I went online and added the $15 media net plan on top of that.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[Savior_on_a_Stick]

It's better for business users - ie: anyone whose employer is providing the phone.

The cost of the hardware is a capital expense.

The monthly is an operating expense.

Operating expenses are preferable for tax purposes, which is why businesses lease equipment in situations where total cost is a wash compared to outright purchase.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[Anonymous Coward]

you end up breaking losing money under the GP's scenario.

Dude, I'm thinking you need to cut back on the caffeine :)

Re:Perhaps it is.

[bhtooefr]

Some prepaid carriers will give you data, but IIRC, they still double-dip on some carriers - data is charged by both the time the EvDO/1xRTT/EDGE (let's face it, there's not gonna be any 3G GSM prepaid phones) connection is active, AND data transferred (at an astronomical rate, too.)

Re:Perhaps it is.

[TheRaven64]

For some it may be. Why do you think you know what is best for everyone?

Damn straight! Paying more for the same thing is a choice, nay a right, of the consuming public! How dare these people claim that paying less is better for everyone?

Re:Perhaps it is.

[Zero__Kelvin]

"If the economy is really that bad and you can't afford it, $60/month will hurt a lot more than $20/month. You'll will make up the subsidized difference in only a few months. Unless you expect to be solvent again in a few months, it's a pretty bad deal. Basic math, people."

Math is clean and purely theoretical. Life is not. Pragmatism comes into play. If I have $150.00 am I better off getting a phone now and paying more in the long run or going without one for several months while I save up the money? If I am trying to find work I am much better off paying less for the phone now and more in the long run. Math is useful, but open to abuse, especially when people don't think about the problem from all the angles.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[darjen]

It's not purely theoretical when you end up paying far more for than what you save after just a few months. Unless you get a good paying job in a few months you will be in bad shape. Even after you get a good paying job it's not worth it. I'm quite happy with my $20/month 3g data plan. If you're really that poor, you should be going pre-paid until you get a job.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[CrimsonAvenger]

If the economy is really that bad and you can't afford it, $60/month will hurt a lot more than $20/month. You'll will make up the subsidized difference in only a few months. Unless you expect to be solvent again in a few months, it's a pretty bad deal. Basic math, people.

I have a $20/month 3g data plan from ATT for my nokia e71 that I bought outright for $330. I asked them what the lowest possible cost was, which was some wierd thing they don't advertise. Then I went online and added the $15 media net plan on top of that.

So, basically, you pay $35 per month. As opposed to $60 per month. You paid $330 as opposed to $100. You come out ahead on the deal in ten months.

In other words, it's not that big an advantage, really. Yah, it's an advantage, but it's not a huge one. Certainly not enough to get excited about, unless you're pinching every penny. And if you're pinching every penny, spending $330 up front for a glorified cellphone looks a little silly.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[darjen]

My bill was actually $38 last month because I used a few voice minutes. If I just went with my data plan only it would have been about $32. It probably works out to a savings of $4-500 over two years. Which almost pays for my next major phone purchase (the n900 perhaps). So I can basically upgrade whenever I want, which seems like a good deal to me.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[Zero__Kelvin]

"Unless you get a good paying job in a few months you will be in bad shape. Even after you get a good paying job it's not worth it."

Oh let's see. By shelling out an extra $500.00 for the year I get an $85,000/yr job I wouldn't have gotten if I was "smart" like you. Hmmm. Which one of us doesn't understand math and the true orthagonality of the problem again?

Some friendly advice: Unless you are going to post back with a post giving yourself a virtual handslap to the forehead, don't bother replying. You already have shown yourself to lack a basic understanding of Life and Pragmatism. We don't need further examples. Seriously.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[darjen]

Are you seriously trying to tell me that the only reason you got a good job is because you paid an extra $500 for a spiffy new phone on a two year contract? Rofl. If you say so. handslap to the forehead indeed.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[Anonymous Coward]

You have 4 major carriers, same here in the US (ATT, sprint, verizon, tmobile). funny how the basic monthly plans for all 4 are about the same - cost and minutes-wise. it's called collusion and our current corporatist government permits it.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[Zero__Kelvin]

I gather you aren't in danger of landing an $85,000 a year job anytime soon. I'll offer just one example of many that exposes your lack of vision:

In an interview for a job developing Android apps for the G1, you have a much better chance at getting the job if you actually have one. The guy that shows up at the interview with a cheap phone is much less likely to get the job than the one with the G1. So again, you think you know so much, but you in fact have no clue.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[darjen]

The only thing your example proves is that you are in a very small minority of people buying expensive subsidized contracts. Congratulations.

I'm glad you were able to get the job by having a G1. I reckon you are in a very small minority.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[Anonymous Coward]

I am in the US and spend around $10/month on T-Mobile pre-paid for my actual text and voice usage, but no data usage. I made the small effort to transfer the most expensive calls to either internet text and voip or an office landline as appropriate for the offending family member or coworker who would otherwise cause all my mobile phone costs. I decided I did not need to subsidize their need to talk out of my income.

The one thing I miss is my roughly $25/month unlimited EDGE data usage that I could get on my pre-paid SIM in south-east Asia just by calling the service center and asking them to debit one day, one week, or one month's worth of unlimited data from my pre-paid balance. The pre-paid cost was identical to the post-paid data subscription for that provider, and it makes perfect sense that they ought to sell this to anyone who will buy it, since it's instant money in the provider's pocket with no real implementation burden to meter traffic etc.

Since T-Mobile USA won't sell me flat-rate data when I need it, I've learned to always find alternatives and to just let go of the stressful urge to be always connected to the Internet. If they had terms like I've mentioned above, I'd probably enable it for several days each month just out of convenience and laziness. But I will not switch to a post-paid plan and pay 5x the same basic month-to-month cost just to have unlimited data once in a while when I would like to use it.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[Zero__Kelvin]

"I'm glad you were able to get the job by having a G1. I reckon you are in a very small minority."

Are you intentionally trying to sound stupid. I cited one of many possible scenarios that prove that "it's not basic math", and that your assertion that it is and anyone who can't do the math and make the "right" choice isn't all that bright was ludicrous. If you're going to be arrogant you at least have to be very smart and usually right. You failed on all fronts. As an excercise, try to think of 10 other examples of how it makes more sense to make what you were so certain up until now was the wrong choice 100% of the time for everyone who is not an idiot.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[darjen]

I can't think of any that would apply to the vast majority of people buying these contracts. Guess I must be stupid.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[tepples]

And where do I sign up for the magical $20 contract? Show me one where I get the hours I need + internet (and oh yeah, in the US) and I'm there.

I'm tempted to suggest what other posters who brag about Europe's system have suggested: Get a passport and a degree. While in college, learn a couple languages of mainland Europe. Then get hired in western or northern Europe so that you can get an entry visa.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think everyone here is forgetting to factor in the time value of money. True, 100 + 60*24 is more than 600 + 20*24. However, the upfront opportunity cost for the "traditional" phone + plan is markedly lower, and until you reach price parity with option #2 the possibility of breakage, or inflation, or what not (relocation overseas) strongly incentivizes (sp?) the former through a lower risk premium.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[mgblst]

Because the USA is fucking huge, how about that? Why do people keep making this mistake, comparing there little shitty country to the USA. Even Australia, which is the same size as mainland USA can't be compared, because 90% of the people in Australia live in a small area.

Seriously, why don't you compare the maneuverability of a rowboat to the qe2? Or the fact you can carry your bike up the stairs, so your neighbor should carry his car up the stairs?

Re:Perhaps it is.

[Kumiorava]

Would it have something to do with the American allergy of getting government involved with any kind of regulation? The health insurance business is in same shape, all plans are same and all try to get you out of the contract if you become expensive. Other area where the competition is not working is cable, try getting a reasonable connection... or electricity. Most of these are well regulated and work under free market principles in more "socialist" countries. US just drags its feet on forcing health/cable/electricity/telecom providers to open up their monopolies for competition.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[mcornelius]

No, we have plenty of regulation. The problem is lobbyists have more influence in Washington, DC, than average citizens. Lobbyists hired by those large corporations their influence to make sure that regulations keep costs up for any new entries into the market. "drags its feet on forcing... providers to open up their monopolies?" Monopolies don't exist in a vacuum. Monopolies have to be either not providing a good or service wanted by many or propped up by some other institution (government) to continue.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[beaviz]

Because the USA is fucking huge, how about that?

Oh yes. That's true. Size hinders competition. Ehm... What?

Re:Perhaps it is.

[cheekyboy]

That was confusing to read.

But heres why telcos like contracts, its make it easy for them to predict earnings for their quarterly reports and projections etc...

Heres why contracts suck to the consumer (unless its a business plan), they cost more and all phones suck after 18-24 months. No flexibility in jumping ship if need be.

Btw, all voice rates are 10x to 50x the price they should be at compared to 3G data rates.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yes. That's true. Size hinders competition. Ehm... What?

Don't worry. The poster you responded to operates on autopilot.

You see, the US is (in the heads of the autopilot posters) by definition best at everything and anything. Therefore, if any apparent exceptions are presented, there must (again, by definition) exist an explanation which still leaves the US as being the best. Thus, the task of the autopilot poster, becomes to devise such an explanation, with no regard whatsoever (necessarily) to credibility, logic, actual facts, or anything even remotely resembling reality in any way.

It's really quite fun to observe.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[heson]

Your argument falls since size does not matter, density does. Population density per km^2; and per sq mile.
Sweden 20; 52
USA 31; 80
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density

Re:Perhaps it is.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a great misconception. Us US'ians *LOVE* to bitch about the lack of competition. But: We have
          AT&T (GSM), Verizon Wireless (CDMA) as two more-or-less national but top-price providers. T-Mobile (GSM) and Sprint (CDMA) with less coverage but lower prices. There's also Nextel (iDen). Most areas have at least 3 or 4 out of 5 (if not all 5) plus several local providers. For instance here I have AT&T, Verizon, Sprint, US Cellular (CDMA) and I Wireless (GSM) and Nextel (iDen). These ALL have the 2-year contract, and "give" you a free/cheap phone (and don't give a price break if you don't get a phone).

          BUUUUT:
          We also have MVNOs (Mobile Virtual Network Operators) who do not own a network. You can buy a phone or provide your own, no contracts, and less expensive than the actual carriers. Sometimes much less. One has $50 unlimited voice and data. The thing is, the same people who bitch about not having a choice about buying a subsidized phone then bitch because they don't have a phone already, and the $30 phone these companies will sell you is very plain and basic (since it's ACTUALLY a $30 phone and not a $200 phone subsidized to $30).

          It's very strange that we do not have any mainstream phone companies willing to do "ala carte" pricing, but it simply doesn't matter, the MVNOs almost all will do this, people just won't sign with them for some reason.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[4phun]

Guess what you do not have that plan any more as of September 2009. AT&T should have notified you in your phone bill that you are going to the exact same data plan and cost as the iPhone. The only exception to this is the BlackBerry which is on a more costly plan. So AT&T has leveled the playing field a lot and added one more reason to go ahead with an iPhone instead of trying to skirt the monthly cost issue. BTW I like the low cost compared to playing big bucks up front for an unlocked phone as I have done in years pass. All those POS have dropped in value within a short period of time. I just sold a broken iPhone 3G for the exact same cash as buying a brand new 3GS. I met the buyer at the AT&T store and when he handed me the cash I handed it to AT&T and said I wanted a new 3GS if this cash was any any good. So far I have sold two iPhones and have not lost a bit on either over the last year.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[Kumiorava]

Even if you had money and will you wouldn't be able to build cable network, purchase wireless telecom frequencies, or run new electric lines to people. These are monopolies (or at least oligopolies) because of the barriers of entry to the market. Regulation would help in making sure virtual operators on each area would be able to utilize the infrastructure. Unless you are proposing that every company would be allowed to run any cables or transmit whatever frequency they want then you will need regulation.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[Anonymous Coward]

Where I live, Australia, a $20/month plan gets you $20 of calls, and a $60/month plan gives you $200 of calls.
So for me, the $99+$60/month is a much better deal.

Re:Perhaps it is.

[mcornelius]

I'm not saying regulation is never useful or that it never benefits society. I am saying that it raises barrier to entry for new enterprises and reduces competition, which does not benefit consumers. Saying that more regulation is the answer is dangerous. Governments don't often peacefully relinquish a power once they have it.

Run any cables they want? Seriously, you think that's a necessary prohibition? I do think companies should be able run any cables they want so long as they have the property owner's permission (and without it, they can go fuck themselves; I don't give a shit about easements).

Re:Perhaps it is.

[darjen]

really? hmm, I didn't see that in my bill, but then again I only glanced at it. I will have to go back and take a look. in that case, it will certainly remove some of the price advantage I have over the iPhone. I think what I'll do then is just go over to their pda personal data plan for $30/month with no voice. it's not that much more expensive than what I pay now I guess. I doubt I will ever get an iPhone... will probably either go with android or nokia n900 in the future.

it it a phone?

[RiotingPacifist]

Is it a phone? I'm yet to see anything (other than a few unsourced claims on tech sites) that shows the N900 will be a phone, it seams to be an internet table (like the N770,N800,N810) which lacks mainstream appeal when you can get a phone with similar capabilities and only carry one device instead of two.

Re:it it a phone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. It's a phone. Quite sophisticated, indeed, but a phone.

Re:it it a phone?

[oh2]

Yes, its a phone. Several tech journalists in Sweden has tried it out and it DOES make calls.

Re:it it a phone?

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Straight from the horse's mouth.

Look at section "Call features"

Re:it it a phone?

[moon3]

I would say it is with halfway ultraportable and halfway supersmart phone.

Take the keyboard, it is too small for normal two hand typing yet too big for one finger typing.

Re:it it a phone?

[Zero__Kelvin]

"Is it a phone?"

No it is not a phone, but Nokia is still concerned that carriers won't stock them, which doesn't make much sense come to think of it.. Yes, it's a phone, or more accurately a handheld computer that happens to be able to place and receive cell calls.

Re:it it a phone?

[oh2]

Well, Im sure that we will in short order see drivers for USB keyboards ported to the N900, or why not use a bluetooth one if you wanna do serious typing. It IS a portable device, not a replacement for a laptop.

Re:it it a phone?

[i.of.the.storm]

Uh, it's not unsourced, it's definitely a phone. http://maemo.nokia.com/features/phone/ . Nokia just likes to call them mobile computers, because that's what they are at some level. And Nokia has definitely said that it's a phone numerous times. Why would they complain about carriers otherwise?

Re:it it a phone?

[shutdown -p now]

Just looking at it is, in fact, quite enough to conclusively settle the question. It's most definitely a phone.

Re:it it a phone?

[loufoque]

Huh? "Call features" doesn't say anything.
You should look at "Data network", which clearly states it's a 3.5G phone.

Re:it it a phone?

[hitmark]

not only does it make calls, one can select between cellular, skype or sip (among others) inside the main call interface.

Re:it it a phone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, Im sure that we will in short order see drivers for USB keyboards ported to the N900

USB keyboards already work with N810.

Re:it it a phone?

[Anonymous Coward]

which of those point of "call features" do you think doesn't make it clear it could call?

Call waiting, call hold, call divert
Call timer
Logging of dialed, received and missed calls
Speed dialing via contact widget
Virbrating alert (internal)
Conference calling with up to 3 participants
Internet calling

Not a 12 month contract

[confused one]

except some carriers require a TWO year contract; so, that becomes:

60*24 + 100 = 1540
20*24 + 600 = 1080

Definitely better off buying the phone outright

Re:Not a 12 month contract

[c_forq]

This has the major flaw of assuming you get a cheaper rate if you provide your own phone. Almost everywhere I've looked has standard plans. If you sign a one or two year contract you can get a cheap or discounted phone. If you don't sign the contract the plan is still the same amount. So the question become do I think I'll be with them for at least the length of the contract, if I do then it makes sense to get better phone out of the deal.

Re:Not a 12 month contract

[Darkness404]

Exactly, and assumes you can get a "perfect" plan. Good luck getting a plan on A) A high-speed network B) Has "unlimited" data C) And has enough text messages/minutes for you to actually -use- your phone. Getting all this for $20? I'd really like to see which network they used...

Re:Not a 12 month contract

[Dr_Barnowl]

I'd be happy enough with a data plan and no inclusive minutes - I make an average of about 3 seconds of calls per month.,..

Re:Not a 12 month contract

[Darkness404]

Sure, but some of us have the annoying relative who don't know how to text or use the internet to talk and end up talking on the phone for hours on end. Yeah, you might be able to hack together a VoIP app for that, but sometimes its just as easy to get a 200 minute plan per month for those sort of people.

Re:Not a 12 month contract

[Pax681]

well i renewed my phone contract without a hardware upgrade as i didn't know what direction to go in as far as hardware upgrade.

this mean that i got my monthly bill HALVED, so for 900 mins,unlimited texts and unlimited(haha) net access i get for £20 GBP per month with vodafone uk.

so if i then went and bought then handset SIM free i'd make quite a saving in the long run.

all the networks ere, as far as i am aware will renew your contract without hardware at much cheaper rates, if that's not the case in the USA then yer getting even more humped than i thought you were.

so the major flaw in your position is that you assume that people don't have pre-existing contracts

Re:Not a 12 month contract

[Dr_Barnowl]

Ah, cross-atlantic differences. This side of the ocean, only the caller pays, or I too would want a bigger plan for all the times my wife calls me wanting tech support.

Re:Not a 12 month contract

[bhtooefr]

Probably Sprint after being with them for 5 years on a SERO account, and getting screwed over multiple times by clueless customer service, so they hit up the retentions candy store every time, and got what they asked for. You could get ridiculous incentives out of retentions up until recently.

But Sprint's CDMA, not GSM, so that won't work with this thing.

Re:Not a 12 month contract

[Dr_Barnowl]

OOh, shiny... mine is already £20pcm... I wonder if they'd add a data plan to it and cut the cost, I've been due an upgrade for about 2 years.

Re:Not a 12 month contract

[Pax681]

mine had all the above mentioned in the bundle when i got the contract/phone (N96) ani just took the extension on the line rental and no hardware, as i said. so thus halved the bill.

as far as i know pretty much all uk carriers will do this if you don't take hardware.

Re:Not a 12 month contract

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, at least here in Germany (and it's Vodafone so I assume it's available elsewhere), there are SIM-only plans, subsidizing your plan by *almost* the same amount they would for the phone. I suspect this is due to lower prices they pay for the phones because they basically become resellers, but really want to make their profit off the plans, not the phones.

Re:Not a 12 month contract

[Hurricane78]

Some? In Germany, they all require a two year contract. Except for those without a phone.

Re:Not a 12 month contract

[JAlexoi]

I don't assume, I know.
Caveat, I live in Europe, where giving a bad rate will loose all of the customers.
We actually had number one mobile operator(carrier for you Americans) loose 15% of subscribers, because of one single plan.

Re:Not a 12 month contract

[tepples]

I'd be happy enough with a data plan and no inclusive minutes - I make an average of about 3 seconds of calls per month.,..

Considered MiFi + VoIP?

Re:Not a 12 month contract

[Anonymous Coward]

That's America for you, land of the monopolies.

I've already preordered mine, after having gone through N770, N800 and N900, I have high hopes for this one too.

Re:Not a 12 month contract

[nausicaa]

Well, yeah.. But then, why do people use credit cards? Monthly installments? Could it be because they can't afford it all at once?

Sure, in the long run it's more expensive, but they get what they want now, and can pay over time..

Oh, and not all cpntracts are that evil.. When I got my Nokia E90, which was something like 8000 SEK (Swedish currency) in most stores at the time, I signed up for 2 years with a carrier that I'd been using for the last 7 years anyway, got a deal for like 500 SEK/month, which does sound expensive.. But hey, what's this? I can call for 299 of those 500? Of the remaining 200, 150 is additional payment for the phone, and 50 is insurance in case I do something really bad, like break the internal screen, which I was actually close to doing recently :P

So, what do I pay in the long run? Since I end up using those 299 SEK anyways, and usually a little more, the real price is more like 200/month.. 200*24 = 4800, and that includes an insurance that I know some people whish they'd gotten.. Even if I'd been lucky, and gotten it fro 7500, that's still 7500 - 4800 = 2700 SEK saved..

Had I bought it right away, I'd not have to pay every month, which would in itself be a good thing, but I'd still have to pay for the subscription to actually use it, as prepaid is not all that great for everyone :P

Read the fine-print, decide ona a carrier you can live with, and do what is best for YOU.

That is, if you actually have a choice :)

Re:Not a 12 month contract

[spinkham]

The MiFi hardware looks awesome, but the 5GB/month limit puts it firmly in the "no thank you very much" category for now..

I thought about getting a refurbished nokia...

[voss]

but wiping all the innocent iranian blood off the phone sort of turned me off that idea.

It was only a couple months ago this companys products were helping the Iranian government
  capture freedom protesters and censor the iranian internet.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124562668777335653.html

Re:I thought about getting a refurbished nokia...

[Anonymous Coward]

If it will get me a sweet phone cheap, I'd wipe baby seal blood off my phone. I don't care. I'm an American. We don't care about shit except reality television, pop music, fast food and huge gas guzzling cars

Re:I thought about getting a refurbished nokia...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's spelled muhrikan ffs!

Re:I thought about getting a refurbished nokia...

[Anonymous Coward]

i love how prejudice is tagged funny around here. maybe if we hang a black man or an infidel that will get the real laughs.

Re:I thought about getting a refurbished nokia...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not again...

Nokia sold telephone gear to Iran, with the same surveillance features proud democracies like the UK and USA demand of their hardware.

Nokia did not sell internet censoring equipment to Iran.

Re:I thought about getting a refurbished nokia...

[djlowe]

but wiping all the innocent iranian blood off the phone sort of turned me off that idea.

It was only a couple months ago this companys products were helping the Iranian government capture freedom protesters and censor the iranian internet.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124562668777335653.html

You need to add a new word to your vocabulary, I think. Here, I'll help you out - it's called "perspective". Nowhere in your linked article does it state that Nokia itself is actively engaging in, nor encouraging, such activities.

Now, to forestall the "They should be more responsible" protests, you should consider something.

Let's assume, for a moment, that Nokia, taking your Slashdot post to heart, decides that it will no longer sell any of its products to the Iranian government. There's nothing to stop the Iranian government from purchasing them from third parties: Would you then call upon every third-party distributor, reseller, etc., everywhere in the world to stop selling Nokia's products to them?

Let's extend this example to the ridiculous and assume that you do, and everyone agrees.

So, they go elsewhere, and let's further assume that nobody, anywhere, will sell them what they want... so, they go to Open Source, perhaps. Certainly, the raw tools are there, no? It'd take time, and money, but they're a government, after all, and they've as much of the latter as needed to accomplish the same task.

Now, learning this, you gnash your teeth in frustration: OMG teh evil Iranian gummint is using Open Source to oppress people! What are you going to do then? Call upon the whole world to stop creating Open Source programs?

Yeah, I see *that* happening.

So, to wrap this up: Don't blame the tools, nor the companies that sell them, blame the people that misuse them in whatever role or capacity.

Finally, to bring this back on-topic somewhat: The N900 appears to be exactly what I've been waiting for in a "convergence device": Sufficient computing power and features, open enough to play with and do neat things with, AND made by a company with enough world-wide presence to actually make it fly, if they do it properly.

While my employer provides me with a Blackberry with unlimited voice and data, it is crippled by Verizon and has no WiFi capabilities, and so I can't use it, for example, as a SIP phone to connect to my Cisco 871W at home and make voice calls leveraging our internal VOIP network to other employees (or outbound calls from it), nor access my corporate voicemail that way, nor can I use the 871W for data/corporate network/email/Internet access while at home: 54 Mbps would be quite a lot faster than EVDO-A and my broadband connection much faster as well, and, since it'd be via the VPN tunnel from my home to the office when I'm home, it'd be far more secure. A smart/converged phone with such capabilities would allow me to stop carrying my Cisco 7921G (one cradle at home, one at the office I go to most), and use just one device for voice, and add things such as remote server access as well either via WiFi/tunneled at home or at our offices, or EVDO-A/VPN when elsewhere, with a much better screen and in as convenient a form factor as my Blackberry, with a better keyboard, to boot. Hell, I might even be able stop lugging my work laptop with its Verizon mobile broadband card around with me everywhere I go, too.

My adopting a device such as the N900 would represent a loss of income to Verizon: I'd drop one unlimited data plan from them, and would probably be able to switch from an unlimited cellular voice plan to something less expensive as well. and THAT is why the cellular carriers in the US don't want fully open, powerful, "converged" devices, I think: The potential loss of income from business subscribers is enormous. Our corporate phone system is already VOIP over our WAN: Being able to extend that to mobile devices, seamlessly, represents a huge potential loss of income to them.

Regards,

dj

It's a very odd thing for Nokia to say at launch

[ribuck]

This is a very negative statement, and from a Nokia vice president no less. It seems a very strange thing to say at the time of launching a new device.

I hope Nokia is not buttering us up for DRM and lockdown in "Step 5 of 5"...

Meanwhile, the N900 will succeed wildly if Nokia's marketeers allow it to. We tech people like the device because of its specs, but where are the simple statements of the benefits for its other market sectors?

"Open source Linux with a root shell" is good enough for me, but what about "A phone with a real Mozilla-based browser", or "A music player with stereo speakers built-in", or even "N900 - comes with apps".

Operators are scared

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been testing a N900 for a while, and let me tell you it is amazing. If this little device is a sign of what's to come, operators should be scared. This is exactly the type of development that will regulate them to the dump data pipes they should be.

Today I received a call from my friend while at home, only later did I realize he was using Skype to call me. Friends PC->Internet->Home wlan->N900 rings, indistinguishable from a normal cellular call, and most importantly my operator didn't make a cent. Same if I call him. Yes, this has of course been possible before in various ways. But now the whole integration is just seamless. There's no Skype app, no Gtalk app, Yahoo app, there's just my contact list. SMS messages, instant messages, it's all one single continuous conversation in the UI. If I was an operator I'd start worrying about my nickel-and-dime business model too.

Re:Operators are scared

[bemymonkey]

Elaborate, please.

Re:Operators are scared

[mgblst]

That is great, exactly the sort of experience that google is going for as well, but Apple will never allow.

Re:Operators are scared

[Anonymous Coward]

Elaborate, please.

Not the original AC, but from owning the N810 and watching the videos.

In the GP's case, when he/she is at home on Skype -- running in the background.
So his/her friend see them on Skype and rather than making a cellular phone call, makes a Skype phone call. But the N900 presents pretty much the same interface regardless. It rings, just like a normal phone call.
When the AC makes a outgoing call, all their contacts are all unified. Skype, Google-Talk, IM, SMS, phone calls. So first you find whom you want to contact and then you can decide whether you want to Skype them or cellular call them.

Re:Operators are scared

[bemymonkey]

Sounds pretty good to me. I just hope the calling rules (i.e. so that you can set "Skype only on WiFi" if you want) are customizable :)

Verizon Says:

[Nautical Insanity]

"exclusivity arrangements promote competition and innovation."

The foul stench creeping through your nose right now is the smell of total bare-faced bullshit.

Re:Verizon Says:

[Ant P.]

That's a funny way for them to admit how much they fucked up...

AT&T got the iPhone exclusively because Verizon didn't want to compete or innovate.

Re:Verizon Says:

[Anonymous Coward]

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength

Exclusivity is Competition?

Re:Verizon Says:

[magus_melchior]

"exclusivity arrangements promote competition and innovation."

Translation: "We want to squeeze cell phone makers so that they make great phones that we can have total control over."

Competition? Verizon? How laughable.

You can buy unlocked phones from Nokia today

[MaraDNS]

With GSM phones and SIM cards, there is nothing forcing you to buy a phone that is locked or crippled by your phone carrier.

You can, for example, buy an unlocked Nokia cell phone from any of several places, and then put in, if you are in the US, a T-Mobile or AT&T SIM card. If you're outside of the US, use your local carrier--CDMA cell phones seem to only exist in the US.

And, of course, if you do end up with a locked phone, there are services on the internet that can unlock the cell phone for you, and reflash the OS on the phone to one that doesn't have whatever features your carrier decided to disable.

I think the only people who will have a problem are people who are in an area of the US without GSM towers and have to use Verizon.

Re:You can buy unlocked phones from Nokia today

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the only people who will have a problem are people who are in an area of the US without GSM towers and have to use Verizon.

This.

:(

Re:You can buy unlocked phones from Nokia today

[TheRaven64]

You can buy a phone from Nokia... if you like paying a lot of money. Or you can buy from a reseller for about half the price. I never understood why Nokia insists on charging so much more for direct sales than they appear to charge wholesale.

Re:You can buy unlocked phones from Nokia today

[influenza]

Except that you'll be paying the same monthly rates as customers who did get a subsidized phone from their carrier. That's not fair. Those of us who buy their own phones should get lower rates. When I brought my Openmoko Neo Freerunner to Fido (in Canada), it was actually cheaper to get a Nokia feature phone than to just get a SIM card.

Re:You can buy unlocked phones from Nokia today

[bhtooefr]

CDMA phones also exist in Japan and, IIRC, China. (Oh, and the Canadian market is like ours, same shit, different companies. Including both CDMA and GSM carriers.)

(However, both countries use R-UIMs, which are like SIMs, but are for CDMA. An R-UIM device doesn't even have an MEID (the CDMA equivalent of an IMEI,) it's in the R-UIM - necessary due to how CDMA authentication works, the ESN/MEID is tied to the account, so it'll reject the call if you change MEIDs without requesting the change from your carrier.)

But, there is also the fact that the GSM carriers suck. (So does every cell carrier, but it's finding the ones that suck ever so slightly less.)

AT&T lies out their ass and has a shitty network, and T-Mobile's coverage isn't that great and they're expensive (and, IIRC, they're just now rolling out 3G.) Verizon cripples their phones. That, for the big four, leaves Sprint. Their customer service department is a bunch of morons that couldn't find their assholes if there were a giant sign saying where they were, but at least their retentions department gave you everything you wanted, up until recently, when the customer service department almost bricked your phone.

Now if only we could get R-UIMs in US phones, and carriers weren't paranoid about devices they didn't authorize appearing on their network... (As it is now, to get a non-Sprint phone on Sprint, I have to MEID hack it, which IIRC is a felony good for 15 years in prison. At least so far, of the phones I've wanted, they've all been Sprint models. (In the case of my Touch Pro, there's two CDMA versions in the US. One is used by Sprint and Alltel, the other by Verizon, and the Verizon one has a much worse keyboard and half the RAM. (And I regularly push over 50% RAM usage on my TP in normal use.) The only phone that would've met my needs better was the SE Xperia X1, and that's GSM, and even if it weren't, it's Sony, which I'm still boycotting over the whole rootkit thing.)

And this post got way too long and went off on a bit of a tangent.

Re:You can buy unlocked phones from Nokia today

[Delwin]

Only for another year or two. Verizon's moving to LTE along with everyone else.

Re:You can buy unlocked phones from Nokia today

[sznupi]

Probably because that's not what their supply channels are geared for - vast majority of Nokia phones get sold through carriers or some local distribution in "3rd world" countries.

Re:You can buy unlocked phones from Nokia today

[sznupi]

Japan is for all intents and purposes a 3G country at this point though; my GSM/3G "world phone" (all four GSM freq) would work there AFAIR.

Regarding SE - it's not Sony, it's a joint venture in which Sony participates. In which the other side is Scandinavian, and they have better backbone in business ethics than most places...

And regardless...remember that Sony is not a monolith. Actually, in some ways, its various divisions work against each other (heck, they open sourced recently some pro software for movie production); so I came to conclusion that it's best to approach them on a case-by-case basis (plus they DO make most cost effective phones in large chunk of the price spectrum)

Ideally Sony should be split to not have so much conflicting interests between divisions...

Re:You can buy unlocked phones from Nokia today

[TheRaven64]

And then they wonder why carriers have so much influence over the kind of devices that are successful...

If their sales team had any sense, they'd realise that direct sales had the potential to become their major revenue source. Not only do they cut out the middleman, they remove someone from the sales process who has a vested interest in removing their ability to differentiate themselves from the competition.

Re:You can buy unlocked phones from Nokia today

[sznupi]

What you describe is not a rule, but a rare exception - in vast majority of markets carriers limit themselves to changing wallpaper/etc.

And you're greatly downplaying the influence of carriers, even in healthy markets; you conveniently forget the "middleman" is the one that provides the service...

PS. Considering that Nokia is not that far off from >50% global market share and they are the only manufacturer of mobile phones (among those for which this is the main line of business) without financial difficulties...I'd say they have quite a lot of "sense".

Re:You can buy unlocked phones from Nokia today

[t_ban]

CDMA cell phones seem to only exist in the US.

False.
India has both GSM and CDMA networks, both hugely popular.
And no one there even knows that there exists any such critter as a locked GSM phone.

Re:You can buy unlocked phones from Nokia today

[bhtooefr]

Right, but on the same token, just as easily as you can buy a 3G GSM phone (or use one you've already got there,) you can buy a 3G CDMA phone, is the point. They've got both GSM and CDMA carriers, too.

Re:You can buy unlocked phones from Nokia today

[amRadioHed]

No, what forces us to buy a phone from our carrier is the fact that we'll be paying for the phone regardless of whether or not we take it.

Nokia isn't a FOSS software firm...

[GeneralSunTzu]

Pal, when I will see Nokia selling anything open and hackable I will believe it. So far they keep sleeping with the Microsoft suits and you cannot hack their crappy software without lots of efforts. BTW, I am considering the HTC Hero, not the Dream, as it is running Android, though customised. The N900 will probably be as locked up as any other crap sold by Nokia... Recent E71 Nokia victim

Codebreaking in 3, 2, 1 ...

[NickFortune]

'exclusivity arrangements promote competition and innovation.'

I'm coming to the conclusion that "competition and innovation" can only mean for "keeps the board in cocaine and blowjobs". From the number of times we see anti-competitive and anti-innovative measures hailed as promoting those same qualities, it seems clear that they can't mean it literally.

By this stage, I think "cocaine and blowjobs" is about the only credible interpretation remaining.

Re:Nokia isn't a FOSS software firm...

[maxume]

The N800 and the like are a better comparison here, and they are reasonably open (they are a better comparison because they share the platform...).

Verizon "competion and innovation"

[Jim Efaw]

The foul stench creeping through your nose right now is the smell of total bare-faced bullshit.

What, you don't believe it's "competition and innovation" to blow identical Verizon interface firmware into every model of every brand and castrate Bluetooth transfers so all Verizon customers have to pay network charges to get their own multimedia to and from the phone, no matter what the manufacturer's specs say? (Those of you who didn't know everyone else could transfer pictures and sounds directly between phones without paying for MMS: That's right. You must be a Verizon or Sprint customer.)

Re:Verizon "competion and innovation"

[bhtooefr]

All of my phones with Bluetooth have been smartphones and allow transfers of whatever you want (a Sprint Palm Centro and a Sprint HTC Touch Pro,) but I didn't think Sprint crippled Bluetooth-equipped dumbphones quite that badly.

Verizon, OTOH, does everything you say, though. IIRC, their official policy is that Bluetooth is for headsets and headsets only. If you're lucky, you'll get some contacts transferred.

Hell, I had to use a Motorola hacking tool just to get pictures out of Verizon phones at my former employer. (No data plan, so they couldn't be uploaded to Verizon's site, and no texting plan, so no e-mailing them to a PC that way.)

Re:Verizon "competion and innovation"

[Delwin]

You can use a data cable to get pics off a verizon phone to a PC.

Re:Verizon "competion and innovation"

[Orbijx]

Yeah, Sprint rapes the dumbphones pretty horribly, to be honest.

I have a Samsung A900m here. Don't send it anything other than a contact via Bluetooth, because it will never receive the file, and the phone will usually become sluggish and eventually need to be powered off.
You can put pics and music on via data cable, but to add a ringer, you either are stuck going through the Sprint Download Store, or writing your own GCDs to save ringers via mobile internet, or get a copy of QPST and your MSL to put them on via data cable (which is more trouble than it's worth).

Seeing this N900 makes me a little jealous. If I weren't pulling a nice fat (21%) discount on my service as is, I'd consider that device and a carrier switch.

Re:Verizon "competion and innovation"

[bhtooefr]

Yes, but I had to use a slightly outdated version of P2KCommander to do it, on multiple Motorola W385s..

This is as it should be.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the free market at work!

Re:This is as it should be.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it isn't. The service is access to a network by a predefined protocol. It's my free choice to use whatever device I prefer, as long as it adheres to that protocol. To make the network inaccessible to devices that use the same protocol but a different firmware (in this case unfirmware), is monopolistic behavior.

Uh, wait. I see now your post is a package deal. This really would be the free market at work, where monopolistic network carriers have conglomerated, and force their world view on you by exclusivity arrangements. It's just that this is expressly not as it should be.

Re:This is as it should be.

[oever]

Yes, it is a great example of how totally free markets do not work. You need regulation to keep the big companies in check.

Re:This is as it should be.

[mcornelius]

Ummm... no. This is not the free market at work and regulation does not keep the big companies in check. Big companies have money to pay for lobbyists that influence regulations being made and regulations end up raising the cost of new enterprises that would otherwise be able to compete and those big companies gain their oligopoly.

Re:This is as it should be.

[Shinobi]

Sooooo clueless

Just take a look in various european countries. We are standardized, due to regulation, instead of the wild west bullshit of the free market situation in the US. As such, my Sony-Ericsson P1i can use the cell phone network anywhere there is a GSM network, and 3G where that is available. And just Sweden alone has 4 major operators as well as some smaller ones who deal purely with prepaid cards. My next phone will probably be a Nokia N97 or N900 though. I'd never settle on something as gimped as the iPhone.

Re:This is as it should be.

[mcornelius]

That is the most ludicrous ethnocentric statement: "Wild west bullshit of the free market situation in the US"? Really? Wow, so a relatively unknown stranger could enter the marketplace and compete if he had a quicker draw?

BTW, what standards are you talking about from regulation? GSM was standardized by ETSI, the European Telecommunications Standards Institute, an industry association. Because of government regulation and substantially less free trade, a few competitors could start in each country.

We have a lot of companies with deep pockets influencing politicians and bureaucrats writing regulations, with very few to no lobbyists countering their influence in our government. More regulation is not the answer. The free market is the answer and we won't let it in. Perhaps different regulation, but the free market is dead in the US. (Just no quite buried yet.)

If we're the wild west, then we have several sheriffs and they're competing with the federal marshals and they're corrupt enough that we're waiting on an outlaw with a faster draw. (OK, OK, I'm practicing in the mirror.)

We have another analogy: "too many chiefs and not enough Indians." Everyone wants their say in whether or not something can or should run without doing anything to make it run. (BTW, overall, during Bush's administration, for every change making regulation weaker, they made another one three times stronger. Still think more regulation instead of different or less regulation is the answer?

So, go on and keep telling yourself that we're horribly uncivilized, but don't say that keeping competitors out of the market makes the market more competitive.

On what planet is it only $20/month

[SuperKendall]

I gave up fighting against bundled plans, because (at least in the U.S.) the un-bundled stuff really isn't cheaper. Witness the "Mi-Fi", a device I'd really love to have and would consider using in place of a phone even - but the plan for that is not that much different than a phone plan, in the U.S. So you are really better off going with a two-year plan and a subsidized device, since you are likely to keep a phone for around two years anyway...

Re:On what planet is it only $20/month

[Anonymous Coward]

On this planet, only not in the US. You can get unlimited 384kbps connection for 10e/month in here.

mistype?

[Kloplop321]

600-20? I think you got a mistype there

Re:Nokia isn't a FOSS software firm...

[Anonymous Coward]

Complete FUD. Go and look at where the N900 comes from, the N810 which is from N800, in turn from N700. They're all linux devices that use Debian's apt-get for package management, and getting root is part of the system. So please cut the bullshit and get back to jerking off over the S. Jobs photo you keep on your iWank.

"keeps the board in cocaine and blowjobs"

[da5idnetlimit.com]

Dear sir,

Please find hereby enclosed my resume...

Re:"keeps the board in cocaine and blowjobs"

[Tetsujin]

I'm coming to the conclusion that "competition and innovation" can only mean for "keeps the board in cocaine and blowjobs". From the number of times we see anti-competitive and anti-innovative measures hailed as promoting those same qualities, it seems clear that they can't mean it literally.

By this stage, I think "cocaine and blowjobs" is about the only credible interpretation remaining.

Dear sir,

Please find hereby enclosed my resume...

Dear sir,

Our human resources department has looked over your resume and found you list of qualifications, references, and prior experience quite impressive. At present we have no job openings. However we will keep your resume on file, and should we have an opening for a blow-and-blowjob provider, we will consider inviting you to our offices for an interview and test.

Re:Nokia isn't a FOSS software firm...

[TheRaven64]

Nokia isn't a FOSS firm? The company that bought all third-party code used in the OS that most of their products ran (Symbian) and open sourced it? The company that's been developing the Maemo stack with community assistance for years and has released three Linux/ARM tablets based on it already? The company that owns Trolltech? Are you talking about the same Nokia as the rest of us?

Re:It's a very odd thing for Nokia to say at launc

[TheRaven64]

Unfortunately, the existing Maemo devices come with a Mozilla-based browser. Fortunately, they are moving to WebKit soon, although possibly not before the N900 is released.

Are you reading, Verizon, ATT, TMobile, Sprint?

[xkcdFan1011011101111]

Apparently I'm not the only one that wants a service plan only for a sexy open smartphone. I wrote a letter to Verizon saying I'm going to terminate my contract with them so I can get a phone like this, but in truth it looks like there may not be any carriers to support this phone.

There is a market for people that want phone+internet service for cool devices. I wonder if that market is big enough for any big carriers to finally consider serving it?

As previous post mentioned, find me a phone+internet plan that's cost competitive and I'll buy a Nokia N900 and join...

Re:Are you reading, Verizon, ATT, TMobile, Sprint?

[Anonymous Coward]

The answer is no, the market is not big enough

We are talking of the same Nokia, yes indeed

[GeneralSunTzu]

I am. Their business model is based on locked down symbian (the open source is to let kids play, not for real-life) and Windows Mobile. Allow me to doubt of their good intentions. And yes I have tried to hack their "open source symbian". It's hard as hell! You a Nokia fanboy, by any chance?

Re:We are talking of the same Nokia, yes indeed

[TheRaven64]

Their business model is based on locked down symbian

No, their business is on hardware. None of the Nokia devices I've owned have been locked down at all; they've all come with SDKs and allowed me to run software. Many of their customers add restrictions, but if you buy your phone from a carrier then you get what you deserve. Symbian and Windows Mobile? A bit disingenuous, given how few Nokia devices run Wince; they've shipped a lot more Linux devices than Wince so far.

I got a 770 (the first tablet in this series) under Nokia's Open Source Developers' Program, for a fraction of the retail price, simply based on existing open source contributions. I probably won't be buying an N900 - the hardware's nice but after trying to develop for Maemo I decided it was more effort than it was worth - but that doesn't mean they don't regard open source as important to their business model (oh, and I forgot to mention their WebKit contributions in my original post).

The fact that open source Symbian is hard to hack on doesn't surprise me in the least. Closed Symbian was also not at all fun for developers, and neither is Maemo. Based on what I've heard from a friend to used to work for Nokia, I'm much more inclined to blame this on the general level of competence of their developers than on any hostility towards Free Software.

Re:We are talking of the same Nokia, yes indeed

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, you really need to go look at what MAEMO has to offer, not Symbian.

Re:We are talking of the same Nokia, yes indeed

[tepples]

if you buy your phone from a carrier then you get what you deserve.

In North America, it's not common knowledge that one can buy a phone other than from a carrier.

Re:It's a very odd thing for Nokia to say at launc

[Pax681]

feast yer eyes on these specs

AND if you look HERE you will find also a nice wee selection of speakers and such that you can use with it. it i was to use it to listen to stuff without headphones, i know i'd be using either those externals OR the FM transmitter for the car.Also for your infornmartion the N95,N95 8gb, N97,N97 and this comes with....[dumroll]...STEREO SPEAKERS BUILT IN

and what about this " * Maemo browser powered by Mozilla technology" as the browser... not mozilla enough for you?

and come with apps?


* Maemo Browser

* Phone

* Conversations

* Contacts

* Camera

* Photos

* Media player

* Email

* Calendar

* Ovi Maps

* Clock

* Notes

* Calculator

* PDF reader

* File manager

* RSS reader

* Sketch

* Games

* Widgets

* Application manager for downloads

or those not count as apps?also remember this puppy is most probably gonna get very much embraced by the open source community, they have built it "and they will come" and write some fucking wonderful apps

SO ..... apart from NOT actually reading the spec or knowing the spec of the latter part of the N series, what is your major malfunction?

Also ant reasonably minded person knows that a carrier "subsidy" isn't really a subsidy at all.... it's HIRE PURCHASE. the payments fr your phone are spread across the conbtract term. and thus buying your phone outright is always cheaper same as it is for buying anything upfront. i would even go sofar as to say like any other credit terms the purchase of the phone (not counting the line rental)generates a tidy profit in itself to the carriers.

not hard to understand really.... as is someone saying "yeah this new product if GREAT and our next product will be an improvement on that!"

it's not as if someone is gonna say "out stuff is shit and next up is even shittier"

Let them know they don't need to worry

[gpuk]

If you're considering getting one of these (and I certainly am), why not go to the N900 mini-site and submit your email address to get an alert when the phone goes on general sale. If nothing else it will show Nokia that there is legitimate, widespread interest in this phone and hopefully help them keep their resolve against the evil telcos!

N900 site is here: http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/ (scroll all the way to the bottom for the form that lets you submit your email addy).

Also, to whet your appetite of what's likely to come, check out this forum post over on the maemo boards: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=24272

Re:Nokia isn't a FOSS software firm...

[Zero__Kelvin]

Nokia bought trolltech, the company that created QT. They continue to make QT available freely, or you can pay for the commercial version. Nokia absolutely is a FOSS company, they just also have proprietary products as well. The two aren't mutually exclusive, even though one would certainly get that impression from the way the two are treated as diametrically opposed opposites around here.

An N900 without a physical keyboard?

[KonoWatakushi]

Can you get the N900 without a lousy physical qwerty keyboard? While the HTC Magic looks decent, even it wastes space on physical buttons.

What I really want is an iPhone with a less restrictive software environment, using an efficient virtual keyboard like ShapeWriter. A minimal slab of computing hardware which is as densely packed with battery and display area as is physically possible.

Re:An N900 without a physical keyboard?

[agnosticnixie]

Physical buttons are essential for enough people that there's always going to be a physical button option - it happens not to be the n900, :'( for you

Re:An N900 without a physical keyboard?

[RedK]

You could, you know, just not use it ? Most of the people who don't want an iPhone want a physical keyboard on their device. Not to mention all the iPhone users who just hate typing without any feedback.

Re:An N900 without a physical keyboard?

[KonoWatakushi]

It is still wasted space and adds considerable thickness to the phone, not to mention making it more fragile, both to impact and liquids. Above all though, there are much better input methods for a handheld device than a shrunken conventional keyboard!

Most of the people who are attached to physical keyboards are simply creatures of habit. Unfortunately, existing physical and virtual keyboards (as on the iPhone) are targeted at people who are averse to change, even if they are both far from optimal.

Re:An N900 without a physical keyboard?

[RedK]

Wasted space ? I doubt it since most people want one. Averse to change ? No, the shape thing has been used before (Palm) and it's much less efficient than a keyboard. Plus having shapes for words makes learning Kanji seem easy. Seriously, the keyboard is one of the best input device for text. And last I checked, SMS, MMS, the frickin root shell, entering contact information is all text based input.

And seriously, it's not because people don't agree with you that you are somehow special and everyone else is averse to change. I personnally just don't like change just for the sake of change. Until someone comes up with something better than the keyboard, and not a virtual one that takes up half the screen space, they can keep their change.

Re:An N900 without a physical keyboard?

[KonoWatakushi]

From your comment, it is clear that you are ignorant, and didn't bother to click those links--they are nothing like Palm's input. While it does take some time to learn them, comparing the difficulty to that of kanji is seriously disingenuous. The miniature qwerty keyboard is not the pinnacle of text-based input!

It has nothing to do with "change just for the sake of change." It has to do with a willingness to learn something new, for the sake of achieving much faster text input. If you can type 45-50WPM on a miniature qwerty keyboard, I am impressed.

Re:An N900 without a physical keyboard?

[mgblst]

Most people don't want one, do they fucker? I know you might, but I certainly don't. And most of the people with iPhone are quite happy. In fact, most of the people who own Mobile phones don't have a keyboard, so don't talk shit.

Most people don't do that much typing to warrant a keyboard.

Re:An N900 without a physical keyboard?

[fatphil]

What makes you think it's a lousy keyboard? I've been using it for ages, and I now love it. At first I thought it was too small to be practical, but typing's all motor memory, and, apart from a few bizarre chords that I have to stretch for, I'm at least as quick on the n900 keyboard as I am on this lousy physical laptop keypad.

(I will admit to loving the responsiveness of the on-screen virtual keypad too, I must add, but only my workmates will know why...)

GSM vs CDMA in the USA

[Nick Driver]

Where I live and do my traveling, the GSM providers' networks are marginal at best. They are grossly oversold and there are outright large coverage holes, especially with T-mo. Verizon and Sprint's RF coverage is excellent and the EVDO data with Verizon blows away AT&T's 3G data so badly there's no comparison.

Even if Nokia would offer a CDMA/EDVO version of a smartphone, Verizon would never allow it on their network.

Re:GSM vs CDMA in the USA

[JAlexoi]

Does Nokia even have CDMA phones!?!?!?
And I don't believe that Nokia is even targeting US. China and India will be the biggest mobile phone growth markets now.
Sure US will get their Nokias, but I don't think that US is their target market.

Re:GSM vs CDMA in the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Does Nokia even have CDMA phones!?!?!?

They used to. I had a Nokia 6185 from Verizon, back in 1999. When I replaced it in 2003, they didn't have any Nokias and I haven't seen any there since. My guess is dealing with Verizon just isn't worth the development overhead. Unfortunately, Verizon has coverage that works in my house. T-Mobile and AT&T are too far away, and with a large lake on the other side of me it's not likely they'll build a closer tower.

Only patented formats

[Tweenk]

http://www.forum.nokia.com/devices/N900

Here it says that it won't support OGG, but it manages to support the completely abandoned Windows Media shit. The only unpatented format it can play is WAV. And it records to AAC (WTF!!!!). It doesn't know about SVG, but manages to support WMF (fortunately WMF is not patented). This phone is a giant step in the right direction, but it's still not the 'dream platform' for open source development.

Re:Only patented formats

[Eunuchswear]

Here it says that it won't support OGG,

What is this "support" shit? It's running Linux, If you want OGG just apt-get install it.

Re:Only patented formats

[EvilNTUser]

Plus, the reason it doesn't ship with Ogg is because of patent trolls, so you can hardly blame Nokia. The rest may have licensing fees, but at least you can deal with the owners professionally, which is unfortunately saying a lot.

Re:Only patented formats

[jmorris42]

> What is this "support" shit? It's running Linux, If you want OGG just apt-get install it.

Not exactly. You CAN do that if you like tearing through your battery in minutes though. The Nokia N series uses a DSP to do the heavy multimedia lifting and that part isn't open[1]. So supported formats work well, while a raw port of Mplayer eats battery life with software decoding on the ARM core. Later ports of mplayer on the Nokia devices use the DSP when it can. So unless Vorbis and Theora get supported on the DSP nobody will want to use them.

[1] Well it is 'open' in the sense that it isn't crypto locked or anything but it is closed in the sense no open tools exist to compile code for it.

Re:Only patented formats

[Anonymous Coward]

If it can support open source development at all, what formats it currently supports is a bit of a moot point.

Re:Only patented formats

[JAlexoi]

When did they get a patent on software and patent trolling in Europe!? Is it still 2009?!

Re:Only patented formats

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure what you mean by not supporting SVG (it sounds like you read the spec line for the image viewer, which is sadly not the best way to judge the device). MicroB (the browser engine built on Mozilla) on the n900 device I have in my lap loads SVGs nicely. It's true that for whatever reason the Image Viewer doesn't show or load SVG files. I don't see that as a great loss. The image viewer is more for basic operations related to photos, if you actually had an SVG library and intended to do something with it, you'd want something specifically designed for SVG files (I have no idea what it would look like, but it wouldn't look like a minimal photo editor).

Note that the file manager will happily send your .svg files to the browser. It's true the file manager doesn't give a pretty preview, but well, that's probably from some pluggable thumbnailer, so i'd expect if you wanted to, you could drop in support.

Re:Only patented formats

[EvilNTUser]

Submarine patents in the U.S.

Re:Only patented formats

[Anonymous Coward]

You CAN do that if you like tearing through your battery in minutes though

I have a N810 and it will NOT tear through its batteries in minutes. It'll play for many, many hours.

Look, I know you're using a figure of speech here and I too am annoyed by Nokia's refusal to include by default the ogg libraries in Maemo or opening up the DSP so that Ogg-Vorbis can be ported. But I fear that some people reading your comments might take it too literally. All my music on the device is in Ogg-Vorbis.

Re:Only patented formats

[Microlith]

One word, and I'll bet I'm right:

Hardware.

Chips that can decode WMA, AAC, and MP3 are frequently used in devices like this to save power. And "WAV" is just a container that tends to store raw PCM.

This phone is a giant step in the right direction, but it's still not the 'dream platform' for open source development.

It's a Debian based distro with a root prompt you don't have to work to get at, and has apt installed. It's far, far more a dream platform than OpenMoko ever was.

Re:Only patented formats

[Anonymous Coward]

That isn't the point. The point is they aren't being open source friendly-even though they are contributing to and developing open source projects themselves. The difference is everything is being done in the companies interest vs thinking of what is best for the consumer-assuming it is doable business-wise anyway.

Re:Only patented formats

[alexandre]

And the new media player (tracker?) is now FOSS from what I've read!
Where is that order button again? :P

battery?

[t5itt3r]

looks interesting. definitely a quantum improvement from the nokia 9500 (aka communicator). I wonder whether they have a good solution for the battery life, with a 600Mhz mips processor, you would be lucky if the 1320 mAH battery lasts over 4 hours. ~ t5itt3r

Ofcourse it an be customized

[Greger47]

From the article:

Nokia executive vice president Kari Tuutti told Mobile News the N900 user interface cannot be customised to include network applications, which will be a bone of contention with the networks.

Tuutti said: "We have a good, long lasting relationship with the networks, but we understand that they may not be happy with the user interface because it cannot be customised."

Which is total BS since Nokia has full control of the software on the device. The only reason for not customizing or locking down the N900 must be that they don't want to. A ballsy move, I really hope Nokia (and other manufacturers as well) will manage to wrestle control away from the networks and their nickel-and-dime walled gardens.

/greger

Re:Ofcourse it an be customized

[Arimus]

And not to mention Nokia know the N900 is not for your average cellphone user but more biased towards tech lovers; who will get very peeved with any lock downs and will just unlock the dammed thing anyway...

Re:Ofcourse it an be customized

[Dragonslicer]

The only reason for not customizing or locking down the N900 must be that they don't want to.

When they say "cannot be customised" they may mean that it isn't feasible, not that it isn't possible. Every carrier would probably want something different, which Nokia wouldn't do without charging them a lot of money, and they know (even if the carriers won't acknowledge) that the restrictions would be easily bypassed. Instead of "we can't customize it", it may really be "we can't customize it unless you pay us a lot of money, and you'd be wasting that money because the users will get around it within a week anyway."

Re:Ofcourse it an be customized

[Anonymous Coward]

Imagine many hundreds of operators around the world and imagine all the customisation you need to do. ...
Imagine that Nokia, with Symbian, knows all about that problem and how costly it is and is not eager to be at a competitive disadvantage with Apple and the other people that don't bother to offer it but profit nonetheless.

Re:Ofcourse it an be customized

[Anonymous Coward]

I can see a full linux phone being a big corporate market thing. Hacked / jail-broken phones for business just do not fly no matter how well they work. Who in their right frigen mind is going to go to their boss, and tell them we should use our a custom mobile application produced in house for a certain department and buy a 1,000 jailbroken iphones or whatever? The boss going to fire them, and not even understand what they are talking about.

  I run a small biz with a few employees that all depend on the cell phones / customized mobile services that are all based on open source applications. If cost come down and it really does what it promises, I plan to arm my entire staff with them. The biggest one being the ability to make use of ssh tunnels in a sane predicable manner with custom applications, VOIP for internal use, and so on. None of my staff is very technologically inclined. Half of them could hardly type when I hired them, and none had ever seen a linux desktop. Likely why they took to linux and open source programs so easily. They had not acquired any bad MS habits.

Nothing in the mobile market that I have found so far will really allow us to run all the open source applications we have in the office with no BS, and without using hacked phones. I might use a hacked phone myself, but I am not going to stake my company on it. If I can eliminate even one or two trips a week back to the office to use secure connections or they don't have to stop to open a netbook and connect, that phone is free for me even at the current prices.

Re:Ofcourse it an be customized

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but it can be uncustomized as easily, which is the real problem for any carrier.

Re:It's a very odd thing for Nokia to say at launc

[petrus4]

I hope Nokia is not buttering us up for DRM and lockdown in "Step 5 of 5"...

Let them, if they want. The thing which anyone who is afraid of DRM, needs to remember, is that there is no such thing as a form of DRM that is unbreakable.

The one great advantage which we have always had over the suits, is vastly superior intelligence. Their relative lack of intelligence is, in itself, the very reason why they are who they are.

Because of that, they can never win. Temporarily, yes; but not permanently.

Re:It's a very odd thing for Nokia to say at launc

[ultrabot]

Let them, if they want. The thing which anyone who is afraid of DRM, needs to remember, is that there is no such thing as a form of DRM that is unbreakable.

Especially on machines where you are able to get root privileges and replace any component of the OS (including kernel).

Let's see how locked down Maemo is, then

[GeneralSunTzu]

All right, let us defer our match to how easy it will be to customize the Maemo platform. From what I have read (Wikipedia), Maemo is a Debian distro with a number of proprietary bits. If I can customise it without asking Nokia's permission, then you're right. If you need a certificate or fingerprint or Lord know what to change some options, then I am vindicated and they will be using Linux exclusively as a politically correct marketing weapon. Re-match in 2-3 months, once I buy the N900 here in Belgium.

Re:Let's see how locked down Maemo is, then

[TheRaven64]

I have a Maemo device, which has been running custom software since I got it back in 2006. There is a Nokia-supported way of installing a new kernel and it includes an apt front end that can be configured to connect to third-party repositories (although doing so requires clicking on a 'yes, I realise that Nokia will not support the software on my device if I've replaced it with bits from a third party' box). I use a third-party bluetooth keyboard driver, a third-party xterm, a third-party install of vim and OpenSSH regularly. I've never tried replacing the X server, but given that I have root access on the device (via a supported mechanism, no jailbreaking required), I imagine it would be pretty trivial.

The firmware update utility may require signed code (I've not checked; I don't think it does, given that there is the community-developed 'hackers edition' firmware that installs fine with it) but once it's installed I have complete control over everything in the filesystem. The proprietary bits are things like Flash and (in earlier versions) Opera - you can't redistribute these without permission from the copyright holders, but there's nothing stopping you from removing them from your device or providing scripts that replace it with something else on other peoples' devices.

So let's, indeed, come back in 2-3 months and see if Nokia suddenly reverses its policy. You seem to be acting like Maemo is something brand new, rather than a platform that Nokia has been shipping for three years.

Re:Let's see how locked down Maemo is, then

[tolan-b]

It has closed source bits, but the vast majority is OSS, you can rip and replace most individual parts and install whatever you like.

Re:Let's see how locked down Maemo is, then

[JAlexoi]

Knowing Nokia and their paranoia, you will probably have to attend a super secret key signing party. Where into a video camera stuffed room people enter in pairs only, no more than 4 people can be there at a time and both parties have to enter the room using doors on opposing sides. Just to get a certificate signed :)

Re:Let's see how locked down Maemo is, then

[JAlexoi]

Oh, I am not exaggerating. I was at one of those "parties", had to escort my colleague.

Re:Let's see how locked down Maemo is, then

[GaryOlson]

Have you collated all this useful and intriguing information on a website? I think quite a few of us would like to refer to this information when we obtain an N900.

Maemo?

[Tumbleweed]

Anyone seen a good comparison of Maemo vs Android? I'm not sure I'd want to invest in a phone with an OS that isn't going to be mainstream like Android obviously is, unless they're compatible enough to not worry about. Yes, I know they're both based on Linux, but we are talking about the most proprietary of hardware here - cellphones.

Crappy support

[jmorris42]

It gets worse. They dropped support for the 770 too quick. Hacker Editions aren't even a good faith effort unless they either release the source to EVERYTHING or continue to provide support for the parts they keep closed. The 770 won't associate with a WiFi access point if an 802.11n unit is within range. Note I said in range, not just that it won't associate with an N access point and the N770 has very good WiFi range. The bug was closed anyway as WONTFIX.

Then we get the N8x0 series. They just put the N810 to pasture, new units are still popping up, and you can forget any support on it as all their resources have moved on to newer things. Now they are offering this new device while already announcing it is toast because they are changing out the entire GUI toolkit. Just how many times do they plan to rewrite everything? Who do they think they are, RedHat? :)

They want 3rd party developers but look at the hell they put them through. Apps have had to undergo major changes between every OS revision. There was apparently a big bar between OS 2007 (the last one that ran well on the N770, it is very RAM constrained at 64MB) and OS 2008. This means no PIM app was ever completed to a usable point for the N770 for example. Then OS 2008 was a big change but most 3rd paty apps do appear to have made the jump. But this new version is very different and has already been announced as an end of life branch of development. So of course thousands of apps will get ported, enough to compete with Palm and the iPhone! Step right up and drop $600 bux..... Even though no previous version had a thousand apps even in a 0.1 state.

Somebody needs to take a cluestick to Nokia's executives.

Re:Crappy support

[EvilNTUser]

The old internet tablets had so few users that they probably had to cut their losses with support. This new device is fortunately a phone and will sell much better.

Re:Crappy support

[Anonymous Coward]

You're assuming Nokia would care to support their phones for any reasonable period of time.

They don't. Once a newer model comes out, you're lucky if you even see a firmware upgrade.

Huh?

[SleepyHappyDoc]

It can run a root shell, but the manufacturer and carrier, together, can't add items to the interface? What, is the firmware burned into ROM or something? Obviously I'm missing something here, since I thought Maemo was quite customizable.

Re:Huh?

[Meumeu]

It can run a root shell, but the manufacturer and carrier, together, can't add items to the interface? What, is the firmware burned into ROM or something? Obviously I'm missing something here, since I thought Maemo was quite customizable.

For carriers, customizing means "shoving our shit down the customer's throat", and Nokia plans to give full control of the N900 to the customer, not the carrier.

Re:Huh?

[zyzko]

It can run a root shell, but the manufacturer and carrier, together, can't add items to the interface? What, is the firmware burned into ROM or something? Obviously I'm missing something here, since I thought Maemo was quite customizable.

I think that what was meant was that Nokia will not supply exclusive (locked) versions to carriers with exclusive features (and maybe some features locked out) for carriers. The carrier is of course free to make it's own modifications to UI if it wants but that's not the whole picture of exclusivity. As important for the carrier as having an "exclusive" product is the financing of the handsets. It is typically a complex deal about when and according to what numbers the handsets are paid to manufacturer and of course the carrier tries to pull most out of the deal.

Re:Nokia isn't a FOSS software firm...

[tolan-b]

While I agree the GP is wrong, you might want to have a look at Maemo in more detail. It is Debian based but quite a few key pieces of software on it are closed. I wouldn't expect to get another linux distro working on this, at least not if you want all the hardware to work. Certainly better than an iPhone though :)

Re:It's a very odd thing for Nokia to say at launc

[Hurricane78]

It's the classic self-fulfilling prophecy. Imagine two guys coming up to a girl. Both looking the same. But the one think he's ugly and stupid, because he thinks others would think that. But the only reason they think that, is *because* he always thinks that, and all his gestures an facial expressions show it at every moment.
The other one is the opposite. His mother always told him how wonderful he is, and although he is a bit dumb, he thinks he's the greatest guy, and acts accordingly.

So who do you think will the girl want more? :)

Same thing here. That VP thinks people will think bad of it, acts accordingly, and thereby gets people into the idea that they can think bad of the device. Because everyone thinks bad of it. And the prophecy is fulfilled: The device fails.

So I say: It will be a giant success! Because the Linux developers will have fun developing for it, adding small tricks that you can do with nothing else.
And because the UI does not allow big-time shell hacking, so the tools will have a UI that normal people can use.
Also supporting devices can be a community thing, because so many people know Linux already.
The first companies selling it, will as usual be Japan, South Korea, and some European countries. Then with the success and the community, the US companies will offer it too, perhaps trying some lockdowns, that will be cracked before official release.
In the end, it will beat the iPhone. Especially for serious business people of big companies, and real men, bragging about it.

If you now say that I must be kidding, then you're the one who already bought into the bad mindset from above. :)
Think of it this way: Your mindset will play a major role in how well this phone succeeds. Use it! Proudly declare that what you wish, *will* happen, and you *know* it. :)

Re:Nokia isn't a FOSS software firm...

[JAlexoi]

He is forgetting that Nokia is Finnish. And we all know who else is Finnish :)

If I can pay 80 percent less per month

[tepples]

it seams to be an internet table (like the N770,N800,N810) which lacks mainstream appeal when you can get a phone with similar capabilities and only carry one device instead of two.

In some cases, carrying two devices can result in a smaller monthly bill. Compare the cost over two years of an iPhone to that of an iPod Touch plus a basic phone from Virgin or TracFone, especially if you don't make a lot of calls.

A page out of iPhone's playbook?

[tepples]

but what about "A phone with a real Mozilla-based browser"

Apple already succeeded on "A phone with a real WebKit-based browser".

The quote is missing something

[tecnico.hitos]

exclusivity arrangements promote our side of the competition and innovation in jailbreaking.

I think this one is more accurate.

It just takes one

[Anonymous Coward]

If there's a network out there that has the wisdom to offer a discounted plan for users who provide their own N900, they will become the network to beat.

HTC Hero

[arevos]

The HTC Dream is without a doubt inferior to the N900.

The HTC Hero is pretty comparable, though. It's got a slightly less powerful processor, but it's slimmer and has a better touch screen, and like the N900 supports Flash video.

The MATH - owning is cheaper in 13 months

[Anonymous Coward]

For those who won't do the simple math - owning is cheaper in 13 months assuming $20/month plans exist. I've never seen a $20/month data plan, so that may not be true. I think more reasonable plans are $99/month for everything or $50/month for data only. If you compare these with the more expensive including a subsidized phone, then it still works out to 12 months until break even.

Subsidized Bought
Buy 99 600
Monthly 99 50
Months 12 12
Total 1287 1200

Nokia, our heroic saviour

[Ilgaz]

Especially in USA, if you use a Symbian but operator supplied smart phone, you haven't seen 70% of what Symbian can do especially when deep level running system utilities installed, like Psiloc stuff.

That company, wasted and keeping to waste Symbian for being nice to operators (who currently lines up for iPhone carrier status) is afraid of their Linux powered device being undermined. These are lame PR tricks Nokia.

I think the N900 might be my next phone

[jonwil]

That or something else with Maemo on it.

Its a phone thats open and hackable out of the box.
It has decent hardware specs. (unlike the OpenMoko phone)
It doesn't contain all kinds of locks and isn't made by a company who has consistently shown a willingness to violate the GPL (Motorola)
Android is great and all but you can only officially program it via Java (with a limited API set) or via the recently-released native SDK (with an even more limited API set)

If Nokia releases this thing with 900/2100 UMTS support and if Vodafone Australia carries it without crippling it, I am SO there for my next phone. (even though I used to hate Nokia with a passion)

I am normally a Moto supporter through and through but the hackability of Maemo is too good to ignore.

What's the best network for this phone in the US?

[RevWaldo]

I'm thinking the N900 is going to be my next phone. But I'm on Verizon, so it'll be time to switch carriers.

Any recommendations as to who'd be the best carrier for it, based on:
- letting me use the phone and all its features, with minimal hacking/jailbreaking (if any)
- network coverage / availability / reliability
- transfer speeds
- price & contracts (if the service works-works I don't mind paying for it.)

(I'd use it in the NYC metro area 99% of the time, if that applies.)

screen size :(

[Anonymous Coward]

I have an N800 and I like it - an 800 pixel wide screen is great for mobile web browsing. Best web browsing experience in the class, IMHO, and I include the iPhone in that comparison.

But the N900 goes from a 4" to a 3.5" screen at the same resolution. WTF? At that point, it gets too hard to read the normal versions of web pages on such a tiny screen.

They needed to make this still a 4.0 or maybe even 4.5" screen for a mobile internet device, or it's just too physically small.

Re:It's a very odd thing for Nokia to say at launc

[urulokion]

The browser used in Maemo is based on the MicroB brower of the Mozilla Foundation. The version on the current versions of Maemo were based on 3.0 versions so where very sluggy. But the one on Freemantle (on the N900) is based on much later versions of MicroB. It has all of the speed improvements of the later 3.0 versions.

And there are a few other options for Browsers based on Webkit (Tear and Digia). They work quite nicely on the N770 and N8x0.

Around the world except in the USA

[khchung]

Go and travel around the world. Heck, go and browse the web sites of mobile phone carriers outside the US, there are plenty $20/month plan.

E.g. http://www.smartone-vodafone.com/jsp/mobile/prices/monthly_plans/english/index.jsp#basic

(Note 1 USD ~= 7.8 HKD) The cheapest is less than US$10 a month, and most expensive ~US$75, and these are "no-contract" prices, you can get even cheaper if you willing to sign up a, e.g., 2-year contract.

Oh, yeah, by the way, all phones (including the iPhone) sold here are not locked to carrier. You can free plug-in another carrier's SIM card whenever you like, AND you can move your old number to the new carrier too.

Re:Around the world except in the USA

[SuperKendall]

Go and travel around the world. Heck, go and browse the web sites of mobile phone carriers outside the US, there are plenty $20/month plan.

I'm posting from outside Prague, Mr. Smug Asshole.

Did you read your own link? Because I see $15 for 15MB plans, with additional fees thereafter (for a phone). That's hardly realistic for a real phone plan if you use data much at all.

Or, a $50 data only price plans (gee, isn't that what we were talking about originally) that also cap at 50MB/month with additional fees beyond THAT. That's usab;e but pretty tight - and I might note, way more than $20...

So again, show me the money, since you are so smug, with a real data only plan less than $20 for real-world use in a month. I've been traveling in Europe plenty thanks and the datascape here is not that vastly superior, though it is nice things are more SIM friendly (or course, I could have bought an iPhone unlocked in the states too but as I said given the fact I knew I'd use the phone for more than two years it simply made more sense to use the subsidized plan).

Perhaps you should try visiting the U.S. someday and realize we do have some things you think we lack...

Re:Nokia isn't a FOSS software firm...

[musicalwoods]

Well, if it is anything similar to the previous iterations installing another OS is possible, as there is already an installable community-created distro out there. It's called Mer.

Try a different word: Collaborator

[voss]

Its not collaboration if the bad guys use a tool that you created without your knowledge or consent, open source community isnt responsible for the iranian government using its tools anymore than box cutter companies or boeing are responsible for 9/11 hijackings.

  It is collaboration if you purposely sell it to them and profit off it. Thats what Nokia did, and if you think thats offtopic you need to examine your own concience

pay as you go

[Anonymous Coward]

for light usage, pay as you go is a much better deal than contract plans. The number of minutes you have to buy is quite low. Virgin Mobile and T-Mobile both have pay-as-you-go for around $7 or $8 a month which includes about 25 minutes if I remember properly. 25 minutes is actually more than I use in a typical month. I don't reserve the phone for emergencies, but generally I only make or receive an occasional quick call, and use email (etc.) for everything else.

problem with US carriers only

[jipn4]

This is a uniquely American problem. In Europe, this is just a smart phone among many--with a nicer operating system--a smart phone you can use with any carrier.

Re:Nokia isn't a FOSS software firm...

[fatphil]

If the other distro doesn't carry the hardware-specific drivers/patches which Nokia has made available to the appropriate subsystem maintainers, then you're right, you'll not have a fully functioning device. However, that's your own fault for chosing that distro, not Nokia's. I know stuff's gone to linux-input, linux-arm, linux-omap, linux-fs, linux-crypto and Linus's mainline in the last couple of months.

Re:Nokia isn't a FOSS software firm...

[badkarmadayaccount]

Nightwish?

Re:Nokia isn't a FOSS software firm...

[tolan-b]

Uhuh, have they open sourced the power management yet?

There's still plenty of closed stuff on Maemo.

Re:Nokia isn't a FOSS software firm...

[fatphil]

There's some closed stuff, the system state stuff inherited from the symbian phones, that's still closed source. Much of it is being rewritten presumably so that it can be opened soon.

The nitty-gritty power management stuff - that's in the kernel, and it's under GPL. Patches are normally pushed towards linux-omap-pm.git, obviously.