Really, any Microsoft comment on this story just has to start with "You fools! Hahahahahaha!", don't you think?
In a way it's kind of cute - just like the other denizens of the software industry, Ximian has started small, done the VC thing, expressed interest in collaborating with Microsoft on an interesting new technology, and then been screwed out of it as it's embraced and extended by Microsoft. Of course, most companies take years to do this, Ximian did it all in a matter of months. Now all they have to do is get bought out by Microsoft, and the circle will be complete:)
I think the difference is that Java is going to be much more useful to the average OEM Windows customer than Perl or Python. There are at least Java games (Atomica, anyone?) and some apps that they might want to use, but there's not a whole lot written for Win32+Perl/Python that the average user is going to want. On a Linux box, Perl and Python are definitely more important than Java, of course.
I don't think there's any fear of OEM Windows customers not getting the most recent VB runtime:)
Yeah, that's the only problem I have with the games - I want to find out what happened to the characters after the game is over, but the next sequel never really comes back to that. It's good that the games continue to be forward-looking, but sometimes you want to know what happened.
The/. crowd doesn't have a lot of sway with OEMs because most people here don't buy straight OEM machines, or at least don't use it with the software it comes with. We're in the difficult position of arguing as "expert" witnesses in the best interest of customers who themselves don't really care one way or the other.
How many OEMs have pre-installed Perl on their Windows machines ever? I take it you don't buy OEM machines very often...
Touché! But in a way that's my point - the administration could be encouraging responsible personal uses of such a tax rebate (ignoring the fact that it's still irresponsible for the nation as a whole, IMHO), like taking a college course or two, contributing it to your local faith-based charity, etc. Any of those options will still spur on the economy. But the focus has been on increased consumer spending, which means SUVs, big TVs and computers (OK, I like that last one too), and so on. That's what bugs me - the idea that the American people are just out there to buy things to keep business on track. Of course, nobody supports that viewpoint like the American people themselves, so what do I know.
Wait a minute - since when did fiscal conservatism become leftward-leaning? Or is nutty fiscal policy (voodoo economics, anyone?) OK when it's your party in power?
It seems to me that both parties are happy to play fast and loose with the nation's economy; they just like to do it in different ways...
The original post was pointing out that these should be part of Windows Update too. Maybe "need to know" is a little strong, but this thread (see above) has pretty well explored that all of the patches are not in all of the places. So if you find one place with Windows patches, and you don't know the exact patches that you need, you might think you've found the mother lode and stop looking before you find the patch site with what you really need.
Bottom line: if you sell Windows as "so easy to administer, you can hire a guy right off the street!", you have to make it really really really easy for those admins to keep up with security. As this whole story makes clear, there are a lot of admins who haven't been.
Well, if you really want to get the economy back on track, you'd buy some over-priced CDs:)
Me, I'm going to save the money just to spite the Prez. and Mr. Greenspan. It's amazing that conspicuous consumption, or even consumption at all, has been elevated to the standard-bearer of our economy. Sure, the economy depends on people buying goods and services, but it seems kind of sordid to tell the American people that it's their God-given duty to go out and spend some for the W, especially since there are plenty of ways that money could be used towards the long-term improvement of society and the economy in general. Too bad the President, along with most politicians, isn't a particularly long-term thinker.
Well, sure. But my point is that those RedHat patches weren't distributed on a limited-distribution or need-to-know basis by RedHat, they were made well known to pretty much everybody and were available on the public site. A lot of security bulletins (although not all I imagine) even become headlines on LT and thus are in a little slashbox for me on the side. There's a lower activation energy for getting RedHat security updates.
There are plenty of admins that don't know their shit, but it sounds like in this case Microsoft could give them a break or two to help them to get their shit together, and ultimately help the rest of us 'net denizens who suffer through this IIS packetstorm.
By definition, this worm is spreading from boxes administered by non-"know their shit" NT admins, because if they knew their shit, they'd have already patched the hole.
I specifically said I didn't think they were "dumb", if you'll recall. Unless you're replying to the wrong post?
My point is actually borne out by your anecdote (which I was trying to think of during my original post but failed): people don't expect to be able to drive their cars under normal conditions without a fair amount of training and know-how. So far most people don't invest this amount of time into learning about their computers, and so have problems getting the same amount of benefit out of them. It is possible in some ways to make computers easier to use, but in general if you want to use a flexible, general-purpose tool to do complex work, the user has to have some understanding about the tool and the work itself. You can only make the tool so simple before it is no longer as useful as it once was. Once more people are familiar with computers, and once some of the egregious problems that people have with computers are worked out, things will be fine.
I have spent a lot more time making my computer do what I want it to do than making my car do what I want it to
do.
But of course: unless you're just of driving age (in which case you should know far more about your computer than your car, shame on you:) you've spent a lot more time driving, learning to drive, and watching other people like your parents drive in your life than you've ever spent with a computer. Remember, there weren't that many people who were great drivers 10 or 15 years after the popularization of the automobile, either - partly because automobiles were harder to use, but also because the majority of drivers hadn't had much experience with it.
The problem is not that computers are hard (although they are), but that users think all of this difficulty can be swept away by the appropriate application of technology. Some of those problems can be resolved in that way, but others are basic truths about general-purpose computing that aren't likely to change.
My favorite:
6) Companies that tell you their hardware interface is proprietary, and so even though they're not going to write a driver, you don't get to do so either.
This is like refusing that Linux exists, but with extreme prejudice.
I have to agree somewhat with the AC on this one - if users cared as little for how their cars worked as they do for computers and the Internet, no one would be able to drive anywhere (wait, I shift and then press this other lever? where's the gasoline come in?). Using powerful tools requires some understanding of underlying principles and a dedication to mastering the uses of the tool. The reason that most people are able to correctly operate cars (a fairly complicated process requiring both muscular control, reflex action, and conscious thought) is that they've been exposed to this tool their entire lives, have good reasons to learn to use it, and put in the time to learn how to drive. The average person doesn't have to rebuild their transmission (or create a Linux distribution), but they do have to know enough about the mechanics of their car to drive it safely and know when to get it serviced. Standardization has helped a lot here in the auto industry, but of course standardization in the computer industry means Windows, so that's not good:)
I wouldn't say that the average person is "dumb", but more that the average person isn't aware of all that their computer and Internet connection can do for them because they haven't been exposed to these tools for their whole life. The next generation or so of computer users will have the experience to really make use of their tools, and if they think the benefits of Linux outweigh the time spent learning it, they'll easily make the switch.
Microsoft is forbidden to ship their embraced-and-extended stuff as Java (tm), but they are certainly permitted to ship the Real Thing (according to Sun at least). They've just realized that they'll never control it, so they'll bury it instead. Business as usual, nothing to see here folks, move along...
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Maybe they just have something against you or your organization, Hilary :)
Really, any Microsoft comment on this story just has to start with "You fools! Hahahahahaha!", don't you think?
In a way it's kind of cute - just like the other denizens of the software industry, Ximian has started small, done the VC thing, expressed interest in collaborating with Microsoft on an interesting new technology, and then been screwed out of it as it's embraced and extended by Microsoft. Of course, most companies take years to do this, Ximian did it all in a matter of months. Now all they have to do is get bought out by Microsoft, and the circle will be complete :)
I think the difference is that Java is going to be much more useful to the average OEM Windows customer than Perl or Python. There are at least Java games (Atomica, anyone?) and some apps that they might want to use, but there's not a whole lot written for Win32+Perl/Python that the average user is going to want. On a Linux box, Perl and Python are definitely more important than Java, of course.
I don't think there's any fear of OEM Windows customers not getting the most recent VB runtime :)
Yeah, that's the only problem I have with the games - I want to find out what happened to the characters after the game is over, but the next sequel never really comes back to that. It's good that the games continue to be forward-looking, but sometimes you want to know what happened.
How about "the government is deeply in debt due to evil Reagan economics, so how about taxing all those who made out like bandits at the time"?
Touché! But in a way that's my point - the administration could be encouraging responsible personal uses of such a tax rebate (ignoring the fact that it's still irresponsible for the nation as a whole, IMHO), like taking a college course or two, contributing it to your local faith-based charity, etc. Any of those options will still spur on the economy. But the focus has been on increased consumer spending, which means SUVs, big TVs and computers (OK, I like that last one too), and so on. That's what bugs me - the idea that the American people are just out there to buy things to keep business on track. Of course, nobody supports that viewpoint like the American people themselves, so what do I know.
Wait a minute - since when did fiscal conservatism become leftward-leaning? Or is nutty fiscal policy (voodoo economics, anyone?) OK when it's your party in power?
It seems to me that both parties are happy to play fast and loose with the nation's economy; they just like to do it in different ways...
Mmmmmm, $300 worth of anime tentacle rape...
The original post was pointing out that these should be part of Windows Update too. Maybe "need to know" is a little strong, but this thread (see above) has pretty well explored that all of the patches are not in all of the places. So if you find one place with Windows patches, and you don't know the exact patches that you need, you might think you've found the mother lode and stop looking before you find the patch site with what you really need.
Bottom line: if you sell Windows as "so easy to administer, you can hire a guy right off the street!", you have to make it really really really easy for those admins to keep up with security. As this whole story makes clear, there are a lot of admins who haven't been.
[Johnny Cochran]: If the SDMI doesn't encrypt, you must acquit!
Well, if you really want to get the economy back on track, you'd buy some over-priced CDs :)
Me, I'm going to save the money just to spite the Prez. and Mr. Greenspan. It's amazing that conspicuous consumption, or even consumption at all, has been elevated to the standard-bearer of our economy. Sure, the economy depends on people buying goods and services, but it seems kind of sordid to tell the American people that it's their God-given duty to go out and spend some for the W, especially since there are plenty of ways that money could be used towards the long-term improvement of society and the economy in general. Too bad the President, along with most politicians, isn't a particularly long-term thinker.
Grrrr, I haven't been this angry since the last time Miguel said something :)
(boy, you know you read /. too much when all of your witty self-referential posts have scrolled off of your user page.)
Well, sure. But my point is that those RedHat patches weren't distributed on a limited-distribution or need-to-know basis by RedHat, they were made well known to pretty much everybody and were available on the public site. A lot of security bulletins (although not all I imagine) even become headlines on LT and thus are in a little slashbox for me on the side. There's a lower activation energy for getting RedHat security updates.
There are plenty of admins that don't know their shit, but it sounds like in this case Microsoft could give them a break or two to help them to get their shit together, and ultimately help the rest of us 'net denizens who suffer through this IIS packetstorm.
By definition, this worm is spreading from boxes administered by non-"know their shit" NT admins, because if they knew their shit, they'd have already patched the hole.
You mean the part where you misspelled your own name, Mr. Dell? :)
I specifically said I didn't think they were "dumb", if you'll recall. Unless you're replying to the wrong post?
My point is actually borne out by your anecdote (which I was trying to think of during my original post but failed): people don't expect to be able to drive their cars under normal conditions without a fair amount of training and know-how. So far most people don't invest this amount of time into learning about their computers, and so have problems getting the same amount of benefit out of them. It is possible in some ways to make computers easier to use, but in general if you want to use a flexible, general-purpose tool to do complex work, the user has to have some understanding about the tool and the work itself. You can only make the tool so simple before it is no longer as useful as it once was. Once more people are familiar with computers, and once some of the egregious problems that people have with computers are worked out, things will be fine.
But of course: unless you're just of driving age (in which case you should know far more about your computer than your car, shame on you :) you've spent a lot more time driving, learning to drive, and watching other people like your parents drive in your life than you've ever spent with a computer. Remember, there weren't that many people who were great drivers 10 or 15 years after the popularization of the automobile, either - partly because automobiles were harder to use, but also because the majority of drivers hadn't had much experience with it.
The problem is not that computers are hard (although they are), but that users think all of this difficulty can be swept away by the appropriate application of technology. Some of those problems can be resolved in that way, but others are basic truths about general-purpose computing that aren't likely to change.
My favorite:
6) Companies that tell you their hardware interface is proprietary, and so even though they're not going to write a driver, you don't get to do so either.
This is like refusing that Linux exists, but with extreme prejudice.
I have to agree somewhat with the AC on this one - if users cared as little for how their cars worked as they do for computers and the Internet, no one would be able to drive anywhere (wait, I shift and then press this other lever? where's the gasoline come in?). Using powerful tools requires some understanding of underlying principles and a dedication to mastering the uses of the tool. The reason that most people are able to correctly operate cars (a fairly complicated process requiring both muscular control, reflex action, and conscious thought) is that they've been exposed to this tool their entire lives, have good reasons to learn to use it, and put in the time to learn how to drive. The average person doesn't have to rebuild their transmission (or create a Linux distribution), but they do have to know enough about the mechanics of their car to drive it safely and know when to get it serviced. Standardization has helped a lot here in the auto industry, but of course standardization in the computer industry means Windows, so that's not good :)
I wouldn't say that the average person is "dumb", but more that the average person isn't aware of all that their computer and Internet connection can do for them because they haven't been exposed to these tools for their whole life. The next generation or so of computer users will have the experience to really make use of their tools, and if they think the benefits of Linux outweigh the time spent learning it, they'll easily make the switch.
Microsoft is forbidden to ship their embraced-and-extended stuff as Java (tm), but they are certainly permitted to ship the Real Thing (according to Sun at least). They've just realized that they'll never control it, so they'll bury it instead. Business as usual, nothing to see here folks, move along...
Just as long as they're not using MS SQL Server 6.5...
Congratulations, you mentioned your personal reasons for not using Microsoft and are now "Flamebait". Welcome to the club!
In one place it's "your", in another place it's "you're". I was confused too.
Remember, if signatures are illegal, only outlaws will have signatures :)
You forgot:
Judging from the other articles under this topic, it doesn't seem to be used very consistently.
On the other hand, was anyone else jealous momentarily to see that Rasterman is going to get an EVA? If anyone can save Tokyo-3, it's him.