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MS XP Drops Java Support
Indicating this ZDnet article, an Anonymous Coward writes: "Something I haven't seen mentioned before; XP will apparently
drop Java support, not only for Java apps, but in the browser
as well. XP users can still download and install Java
seperately, but of course, how many will choose to do so?"
Any java email virus is the fault of microsoft itself. Of course there are a hundred easier ways to exploit Outlook and Internet explorer, but Microsoft's JVM has holes as well. On the flip side, I am aware of no publicly known vulnerabilities in Sun's Java 2 security. While there was once a never publicized method of writting malformed code that gets by the bytecode varifier, I am aware of no current (or even recent) faults in Sun's virtual machine security.
Whereas you may be right that XP leads the horse to water, Millenium's assertion that most user's regard their PC as a "magic box" is quite true and insightful (I work in a corporate environment in an IT-support function - you should see the look on people's faces when you tell them that they have to upgrade) But a second point... Corporate Environment. My company have just recently started running a *very* customised version of Internet Explorer 5.x which has very restrictive security settings. Under WinNT, the users (who don't have local administrator rights) used to require a support person to come to their machines and log-in as administrator to install these plugins, like the "Java thing". With our *new* implementation, even as local administrator it is not possible to install anything more or less than what IT deems acceptible... can mine be the only environment in which this sort of thing happens...? Now, if M$ says Java runs viruses, inept IT middle-managers will believe them and recommend that the JVMs not be installed (even some IT middle-managers believe that the PC is a "magic box"...). Many companies will run what M$ says works.... users will use at home what they're forced to use at work... Java slowly fades from view. A coupe de grace to Java... ... .NET, here we come....
Apparently, Microsoft execs have not surfed the web recent; it's hard to find a mainstream site which at some point doesn't use Java-based ads.
But if you have Java disabled, you wouldn't know that. So, in fact, you can surf the web every day, and still be completely ignorant of whether or not anyone uses Java. (In fact, it's complete news to me. I had no idea until this /. discussion that anyone uses Java for ads.)
So I think your inference that MS exec don't surf, is flawed.
You know what the "extra step" is? You go to a page that wants it, a window pops up and says "You need the Java Virtual Machine. Click this button to download and install it."
:)) It's not like most users won't be able to spare 5 more megs, considering jsut to add japanese language support sucked me out of 230. C:\Windows folder: 1.22GB. I wouldn't even be able to tell if 5 more megs got shoved in there.
It downloads it, it installs it, it continues on with whatever you were doing before. No diverted page, no hassle. The only problem I see here is for people with slow modems, as the JVM isn't that tiny.. a couple megs. Seems stupid that they don't include it by default, considering other useless crap they include (The media player from windows 3.1 is STILL in here
You are a moron. Do you think we care about people like you? Of course you're going to download the JVM. Unfortunately, web designers have to write pages for *gasp* average people! Guess what.. they use *gasp* 56k modems! More than that, like others have already said, they're reluctant to install software.
Yes, Sun does release a new JVM version every year or so but generally the new libraries and features are only used in full applications. The standard for a large chunk of the applets still in use is the 1.1 VM, which MS has a compliant VM for. By not including this by default, MS is pretty much saying that they don't want to support any Java code without forcing the user to to take the extra step of downloading the VM.
It looks like nobody cared about the "pro-Windows" comment. Well, other than the guy who decided to post a way-too long explanation of why he uses Linux. Like anyone actually cares why you use an operating system...
I remember the first time I hit a java page. It was back in the early Netscape 2 beta period or late 1.x series IIRC. I remember my computer ran out of memory trying to initalize the jvm and crashed. They say the first impression is the most important, maybe that's why I harbor a lingering distrust for java...
Down that path lies madness. On the other hand, the road to hell is paved with melting snowballs.
I read the internet for the articles.
heh, like the sig.
I've been singing that song lately myself. I just bought a home with a lush green lawn, and proceeded to kill 40% of it. In the summer it needs *much* more water than in the winter. It caught me off guard.
I'm trying to bring it back with reseeding efforts, punding it with a screw driver, and altering the sprinkling system, but who knows if any of that will take.
~^~~^~^^~~^
Apparently, Microsoft execs have not surfed the web recent; it's hard to find a mainstream site which at some point doesn't use Java-based ads. I wonder if this move may entice some web advertizers to take issue with MS for removing a key component for viewing their ads.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
So, Microsoft bundle things with their OS... and that's bad.
And Microsoft don't bundle things with their OS... and that's bad too.
Just wish these slashbots would make up their minds about what they want.
Okay...pretty much everytime I have something that needs Java, trying to run it in IE, unless it's a bouncing ball, is a pain. So, you download the JRE and you're set.
/. - we're sick of hearing about it too.
But saying they're doing it for security reasons is just a joke. IIRC, Java applets can only connect back to the server they came from. IIRC, Java doesn't have the Win32 API and can't open your address book and make MAPI calls to spam everyone you know.
Sure, there may be a 1% chance that some hack will be twarted because of them removing Java, but as little as I try to bash MS, until they fix Outlook/Outlook express and the security problem with html/attachments, it's not going to matter.
It seems like every other week there is a new hack via Outlook...I don't even think the most recent one made it on
>Office XP will only work on Windows XP
While I don't disagree that MS may strongarm people, it's important to note that Office XP is already out, and works fine under Windows 9X/ME and Windows 2K. As for the bundling Java issue, as an earlier poster pointed out, up till now, MS was shipping something based on 1.1, not the 1.4 from Sun. At least this way, developers won't be stuck catering to the lowest common Java version, maybe we'll see some apps using the new performance and features of 1.4. I suppose I'm being idealistic here...
----------------- "I have a bone to pick, and a few to break." - Refused -------------------
i thought .Net was supposed to be language neutral!
The revolution will NOT be televised.
They've been doing their best to kill Java for years now and it didn't work. With the lawsuit out of the way anyone interested in Java at least knows to just go with Sun - there's no more Visual J++ to confuse the issue. It's not just about web surfers - how many web pages execute C++ cgi? Does that mean C++ is dead? Not a bit.
The revolution will NOT be televised.
Yes, I've written C++ cgi too and quite like it thank you, but it doesn't get executed in the browser, it runs on the server. The user doesn't know or care. As fas as I know the only C++ that gets executed in a browser is ActiveX controls.
The revolution will NOT be televised.
I use Mozilla all the time, and it doesn't come with JVM either - and I haven't needed Java applet support for ages, so I have just not bothered to even install it! I think the last place I used Java was in E2 Java Chatterbox, and another chat application was in use in one of the courses ehre... and, um, that's about that for me "using" Java for anything.
These days, people seem to use much more of Flash for the "irritating blinky content" that Java was formerly so largely used for, though - that's good, because Flash is not slow to download and get running, like Java applets.
I see no problem in "download Java separately if you need it" approach.
when you hit a page that needs java for the first time a thing pops up asking if you want to download the java thing with a big OK button
You don't understand. Even that is enough to scare many users off, because it "changes" their computer. It doesn't matter how easy you make it; making it necessary to install new software, no matter how easy you make that process, will frighten a very large portion of users so much that they won't do it. This is particularly true of Windows users, from what I've seen, but it happens in other communities too.
This is Microsoft's ace in the hole. It controls, to a large degree, what gets installed with a machine. If it comes with a computer, chances are the user will never switch, and they won't even upgrade what they have. It's stupid, but people are just that way. And Microsoft can ruthlessly exploit that.
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...well, no it isn't. But most users think it is. And that's all that matters, because they act on what they perceive, not what is real. Stupid? You bet. But it's the way things are.
Honestly: the average user is outright afraid to change anything on their computer. It's a "magic box" that will break if they do anything to it. You have no idea how many times I've seen this with users. They don't want to upgrade if they can possibly avoid it, and installing new software is even more to be avoided. I know one guy who got so mad when a beta release of some software he was using expired that he now boycotts that company because ""they released it for download, so it must have been ready for general use."
This is the fact Microsoft is banking on: computer-wise, the average user is a technophobe. Those of us who actually stay current are very much the exception. And because of this, anything Microsoft adds or removes is immediately crippled in the marketplace; users do not want it if they have to do anything whatsoever to get it.
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Hey, now: don't be too hasty! Some scientists argue that cancer can be caused by virii, which means that you could have your GPL virus and get cancer, too.
TERMS OF SERVICE FOR THE WEBSITE?
obviously, you are a moron. when was the last time slashdot popped up with a license agreement when you opened it?
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a funny comment: 1 karma
an insightful comment: 1 karma
a good old-fashioned flame: priceless
this sig limit is too small to put anything good h
Extraordinary Vacations. Exceptional Prices
M$ is doing this to help the Java platform, and with it, Sun. What are you smokin?
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
Nothing bad here, mabye people will actaully start using the plugin now. This will mean that the JVM is downloaded from sun automaticly and will be up to date with the features that have been missing for the past 3 years from the browser. M$'s jvm is still based on Java 1.1, cmon we are testing Java2 1.4 at this point.
This is probably paving the way for shades of "Non-MS-DOS Incompatibilities".
.NET stuff will run faster (not that Java's all that sprightly to begin with sometimes).
Basically no truly platform-optimized VM, so OF COURSE
Billgatus set us up the bomb!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
How will I play Bejeweled?!
--
Join my fight against Subway's new cut!
http://spine.cx/subway/
Or, you could use: B4 3C BB 00 00 88 D8 80 C4 10 8E
C3 9C 26 FF 1E 84 00
Why am I not afraid?? :)
All very true. I don't see this as so much of an offensive move by Microsoft. Sun basically took their ability to be a quality Java player away, so they decided not to play at all.
Sun will just have to come up with a way for applets to bootstrap themselves into the new browser without causing a 5 meg download. That shouldn't be too difficult technically, but it will take time to get the applet authors to get the bootstrap in place (either via code internal to the applet itself or via a wrapper ActiveX control which brings in the JVM - hell ActiveX will still be there - why not bootstrap off of it?!).
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
I'm talking out of my ass a bit here, because I haven't actually tried this but...
.NET includes extensive security APIs. It should be true (here's the unverified piece) that Visual Studio.NET will also allow me to write ActiveX control (it allows 'Web Control' projects so that should be true).
It's a fact that
The two combined means that Microsoft could be providing ActiveX controls with capable of being highly secure.
Of course, that doesn't stop trojan writers from utilizing the old tools to write old-style ActiveX controls, which the new browser will have to be able to execute in order to avoid pissing off all of the existing ActiveX control authors.
Also - if Sun is smart, they will use ActiveX to sneak a JVM into the browser anyway. The browser doesn't have to know that it's actually executing Java in a control; Microsoft wouldn't be able to stop that without ditching ActiveX browser controls (not likely).
Oh, and I know that schools are emphasizing Java, and rightly so. After all, if you want to teach OO using 'standard' C++ to students you have to use Microsoft's tools (to be effective anyway, I have experienced this first hand) which professors abhor. So, enjoy your Java. Hell, go get certified. But learn VB and other MS tools too, you *will* need them. You'll probably use both skill sets at some point anyway (unless you close your mind, but then guys like me will mow you down in the market - it's your choice).
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
I don't know of another answer besides Java Web Start. I think people aren't talking about it because it's not usually practical for the average browser user because of the initial download.
n t/ java/launchers.shtml
:+)
Having said that, let's take a quick look at Google searching on 'java application deployment'. Here are a couple interesting leads (which may or may not fit your needs depending on the nature of the extranet you're servicing):
DeployDirector
http://www.sitraka.com/software/deploydirector/
CUJRE
http://solutions.cit.cornell.edu/Tools/deployme
Repeat this ten times: Google is our friend.
Good luck!
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
But the browsers aren't 'virtual machine' friendly. Microsoft is basically giving their JVM the boot and preventing a JVM from being installed (if I understand the security part correctly).
.NET IL for use in a .NET environment. Such a compiler isn't available yet, but you can bet your butt one will be available (unless Sun interferes of course, which they could I suppose with baseless lawsuits).
However, none of this prevents a developer from buying a Java package to compile his Java applications/beans to
.NET truly is language neutral, but it won't be API neutral.
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
Isn't there a version of Java being developed for release under .NET (by Hewlett-Packard)? I believe so. So, you will be able to run Java under .NET eventually, sort of.
.NET will be going everywhere and they have much to lose by keeping Java out of .NET.
.NET won't fix the issue of Java missing from the browser. But Sun has seen this coming for some time now, hence the existence of what used to be called 'Java Activator', now called 'Java Web Start' I think (see http://www.sun.com/software/communitysource/javawe bstart/ for details).
Why 'sort of'? Well, there is the issue of the Java APIs. I doubt that the providing vendor will get those 100% right, but they might even shoot for J2EE compliance. If Sun is wise, they won't fight that either.
However,
On the plus side, this does mean we can look forward to not worrying about users actually using Microsoft's Java in browsers. The feature set of that JVM is more limited in terms of the APIs (e.g. Swing) it supports compared to Sun's more current JVMs. Applet developers could actually standardize on a Sun JVM baseline now; not that applets are all that important anymore.
Come to think of it, this doesn't really even affect most Java client-side application as most of those ship with some version of the JVM anyway.
*shrug* I guess we saw this coming a long way off though. Microsoft hasn't really surprised anyone on this.
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
Is that Java programs or applets?
As it is, many large business's won't install another JVM and force software vendors to be compatible with Microsofts JVM. That could now change and the newer JVMs are far better then that ole clunky one Microsoft shipped.
Now the question is: What will Microsoft do to keep OEM's from installing the JVM?
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
I was really really sad to hear the Sun had signed a licensing deal with Microsoft in the first place. That one act kept Java from the desktop as an application foundation. Microsoft did just what they wanted to do, stop java on Windows or at least control it.
But wait, there is hope. Java is doing well on the servers and it's doing well on phones and soon in TV's. Where Java NEEDS to go is the desktop and Microsoft opened the door. By not installing their JVM in the OS, OEM's can put another, full featured one, in. Remember the days when companies with great ideas could go to OEM's and get them to pre-install applications? There is no duplicity now that Microsoft is removing the MS-VM.
This could be a day of celebration because unlike the browser war, Java is very well known, and liked, all the way up the management chain.
The door is open for IBM and/or Sun to start making deals. AND FAST!
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
Windows ships without a C compiler, but that didn't kill C. (And yes, I realize you don't need special software to RUN the C programs.)
All the major web browsers can download this stuff automagically, and that's what will happen. XP systems will be without Java for about five minutes after they're first turned on.
This means nothing for Java.
-
I think you forgot that Java runs on Linux, if it doesn't run on Windows.. nobody will use it, and instead will use something that doesn't run on Linux.
Sad really that the linux community just prays microsoft won't do something evil, and they just do anyway. Someone has to put their foot down and stop microsoft.. but how do you stop a 400lb Gorilla?
Nope, flash plugin is included in IE and Netscape browsers in windows and macos.. no extra download required.
:)
I think the flash plugin is also installed with Netscape Communicator 4.x for Linux if you use the installer from Netscape.com, it usually is not included by the distributions... especially not debian
BFD. The process in the JCP is just as open as any ISO JTC could ever hope to be. But, hey, why should I respond? You probably aren't using the WWW either, since it's not covered by ISO standards. Now, where did I put that X.400 gateway...
Yes, it can.
ASP: server-side, so it doesn't even try to do the same thing that Java did.
JSP: Server-side Java technology that matches ASP. There is a lot more to Java than applets, like there is a lot more to C than device drivers in Unix.
Several languages already compile to the JVM, including Smalltalk, Python etc. Someone is nice enough to keep an updated list of them. The advantage the CLR does have is that you have cross-language inheritance, that is your C# class can extend a Java (when the binding is ready) class and so on.
C# is also cleaner than Java to many.
Um, have you actually read the language spec? Any language that uses goto in such ways is evil.
Ostensibly standards-based and open.
Which standards are those? XML? Java has it. SOAP? Java has it. Microsoft has delivered C# to ECMA (here are HP's notes on it), but since the object model is COM/DCOM, what else than their Windows will ever use it?
These two things, plus MS's monopoly, may well be enough to convince or coerce people into dropping Java completely.
Especially the single vendor approach. For Java, there are a huge number of vendors competing with mature tools and libraries. For C#, there is Visual Studio.NET, currently in beta.
From the article:
[The] spokesman said the Java support in Windows up until now "is a lot of code that many users don't need[..]
Of course Office and Windows itself don't suffer from this unnecessary code bloat, right Mr. Spokesman?The timing of this is suspect, considering MS just announced that vendors would be free to add their own software to the system..
Trolling is a art,
Once upon a time, Sun got an injection against Microsoft...
Hmm... a vaccination against Microsoft...
Perhaps you were looking for injunction?
prosebeforehos.com
if you think that the only site using java applets that are of any use is http://www.afterhourstrading.com, you've clearly not been doing much except feeding your (legal) gambling habits...
there are more with superb applets than i can possibly list, but to help feed your habit, might i recommend the awesome research tools at http://www.smartmoney.com
just my 0.02
peter
Microsoft is forbidden to ship their embraced-and-extended stuff as Java (tm), but they are certainly permitted to ship the Real Thing (according to Sun at least). They've just realized that they'll never control it, so they'll bury it instead. Business as usual, nothing to see here folks, move along...
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
They won, but MS can continue to distribute the VM for another 7 years or so.
So what are you saying, they should have to distribute it for another 6 years, 364 days before dropping it? If you're not saying that, then why shouldn't they drop it as soon as possible? Isn't it reasonable to assume that if a company A gets a judge to order company B to cease in desist, but gives them 7 years to do so, that company A would hope that it would happen as soon as possible? Of course. In this case, though, Sun realizes that Java has been a failure on the client and was hoping for as much exposure to Windows users as possible. Too bad.
About C#, it's a cool language, but .NET is the real attack on Sun. As for removing Java, again I remind you that Sun demanded this.
If they want to bundle a Java VM with their OS, they have many options.
Yeah, if they want to. They could give a Piper Cub away with each copy of MS Flight Simulator if they want to. Why should they? What customers care if they have a JVM or not? The only decent site using Java these days is www.afterhourstrading.com, and the sooner they're using Flash/ActiveX/.NET, the better. Sun asked for it, Sun's getting what they asked for, and now all the anti-MS people are crying. They're pissed because Bill Gates outsmarted them yet again.
Cheers,
doesnt forbid M$ bundling suns 2.x JVM instead
LOL. C'mon, you guys are getting really desperate. Why would Microsoft start bundling any software from Sun? Let me know when you guys start demanding that Sun start bundling IE with Solaris, mmmkay?
Cheers,
Do that other crap on your own time instead of when you're on the clock. If your job has any significance whatsoever, and the other things were really important to your job, they'd let you use them. You do the math.
Cheers,
While that makes what MS did more generally and morally reprehensible, do you really think it is relevant to the point of whether or not copyright infringement is taking place?
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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Just a few weeks ago, there was a company that was considering changing how their web browser displayed pages. It wasn't even a proxy that altered the content of a page and then forwarded it to another app; it was all inside the app itself.
In addition to the public outcry over how stupid it was, there was a significant number of people (even -- bewilderingly -- Robin Gross of EFF) arguing that the application was somehow creating a derivative work w/out the copyright holder's permission, and then redistributing it to the program's user, thereby committing copyright violation. And this was all contained within a single application, where the only conceivable form of "redistribution" was that was happening, was that the application was displaying the derivative work on the screen.
If that could possibly be copyright violation, then ad-blocking proxies, which can be used to forward the derivative works that they create, to other machine and users, are surely right out.
Oh, the application in question was MS Internet Explorer, and the offending modification was "Smart Tags." There is simply no way that ad-blocking proxies can be legal if Smart Tags isn't. And a lot of Slashdotters thought Smart Tags were illegal.
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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Look at it this way: we finally are freed from those annoying pop-up windows!
-- Cheers!
From the article : "Under terms of a settlement with Sun, Microsoft was given the right to continue to use early versions of Sun's Java code in Microsoft products for seven years, but made no commitment to do so.
They still could ship Java, not the latest versions. They decided to remove it altogether instead.
"When I was a little kid my mother told me not to stare into the sun...
"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear"
I develop servlet and applet solutions to deliver results to some of the Oil Majors - to get software installed in these environments is a nightmare!
Also the Java Plugin doesn't work correctly when there is no DNS access (i.e. all lookups are done by the proxy)...
Also the Java Plugin 1.3.1 auto-download crashes...
Yeah, as you said easy...
Dropping Java from the browser won't stand. Looking at it from Microsoft's point of view, it's a piece of legacy support they can't drop without pissing off many in their target audience. Imagine the reaction (not from geeks, but from everyone) if they dropped Javascript in favor of VBscript.
I am so bloody tired of having to reinstall Windows 2000 because some third party package has installed some HTML that breaks some control panel applet. They're starting to use their built-in rendering engine in there... that's why the new Add/Remove Programs is so slow...
OK, Microsoft, please rip out the browser. Rip out the HTML rendering. Rip out Active Desktop. There is so much bloat in there, they could cut the NT install to 5 floppies and still include a complete OS...
See http://www.javasoft.com/products/plugin/index.html for more information on the Java plugin.
-m
and Extinguish. Why should we be surprised?
I am not your blowing wind, I am the lightning.
Notes? You're kidding, right?
:)
Apparently, you've never seen a notes memo that contains a button that when pushed sends a nasty message from you to the whole company. And just about anyone can make a memo like that (it's really pretty easy). It makes me wonder if with a little work you could make a button that formats your harddrive.
But like I've always said about Notes -- Notes can do many things well, but it is not an email program.
Sorry if this is off-topic, but have to deal with Notes on a daily basis, so I occasionally have to vent
"Save the whales, feed the hungry, free the mallocs" -- author unknown
I think this is a wrong analogy. A more correct analogy would be a MS as a carmaker that sells a car that 99% drive or know how to drive and they suddenly announce that with the next release they will switch to electric engines, screwing badly the gas vendor industry this way .
I think it is inaccurate to describe Java as a moving target at this point.
.NET was announced. Without the leadership of Sun, IBM, and the like to push the platform forward, it would simply die from stagnation.
3+ years ago, when the language was undergoing MAJOR revisions with each release ala the switch from old event model to new event model, and switch from AWT to Swing, that was true.
However, since Java 2 has been released, things have settled down quite a lot. The language is stable. Sure new features are added, but they aren't the kind that make you go back and redesign lots and lots of code. They are more of the "wow, that is a nice enhancement that will save me lots of time" type.
Sun has also spent a lot of effort in speeding up Java in the past 18 months. However, most apps don't need to worry about this. They can just take advantage of the increased speed with no extra effort expended bu the developer.
It seems that today, the largest advances in Java by far occure in the class libraries. However, even here we see that many of the changes are just improvements in the way things worked before. Take JDBC. JDBC code I wrote 2 years ago still works now in JDBC 2. Sure, JDBC 2 added lots of useful things (like built-in connection pooling and data sources), but my code doesn't have to use them to work. JDBC 3 is now in development, and will add more useful things (like statement pools) but once again, my existing code should work just fine. So it is true that Java evolves quickly, but these days developers aren't stranded anymore.
IMO it is to Sun's credit that they push the envelope of Java so much in such a short time. Without the aggressive release schedules, Java wouldn't have a chance. Keeping the platform evolving so quickly allows Java to stay on the leading edge. Look at the XML RPC stuff - this stuff was out there from the start of all this "web services" buzz, long before
I agree, that is certainly a conundrum.
I was hoping that the next generation of IE would follow Mozilla's footsteps, and put JDK 1.3 in it, but alas there is no hope for that.
It is quite disappointing to see such wonderful Java 2 features so useless in a browser-based app. Fortunately for all of us, there is much more to Java than browser-based. Sun's new Java WebStart (or whatever it is called) that provides the best of running Java from a browser (no setup/installation issues) with tht best of running from a JRE (quality JDK with full library support) seems quite promising for corporate and specialized app environments. But it is disappointing that simple applets will be all we can ever expect from a web page.
Well, maybe you can get 6 megs in 1.5 minutes, but most people can't. Many, many people can't (FWIW, I got it in about 2.5 minutes the other day:)
People will/are downloading Real* only as long as the builtin Windows Media Player isn't pre-installed. Same with WinAmp.
None of which really bothers me, personally, but that's how I'd explain the 'strum and drang' from the masses.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Well I doubt that most people ever wrote for the MSJVM. I think only J++ supported those extentions. Very few people used them. .NET Java will do just about everything that .NET will do and be platform neutral. If MicroSoft has a problem with the Java Lanugage it's self. Well then write C# so it can target the JVM same with VB. You want to be extend Java fine, make packages that extend Java. I have had to do that for some of my Java projects. I am using DDE and reading ENVs in Java on a windows machine. Java should be the new Basic for the 21 centrury. It should be available included on every machine. It will not happen of course :(
MicroSoft should include a Java 2 JVM. You ask why? Because Java is a great tool and you really can write once run anywhere. Having to download a JVM sucks. What we do not need is
If the best tech always won we would all have been using Macs and Amigas by 87.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Ah, but Sun is NOT a monopoly, and the market forces can be assumed to correct any problems. That's the problem with being a monopoly. The rules are different.
Personally I'd love to see Sun getting $25 per copy of Windows. Should speed up Linux on the Desktop quite a bit.
Your opinions seem to be rather disconnected with what I see in the real world. I talk with CxO-types nearly every day, and one thing that is a nearly constant theme right now is that they're *MAD* about Microsoft's attempt to force them into XP and a two-year upgrade cycle for both the OS and Office. I've spoken with one CEO and two CFOs in the last week that have decided to pass on Microsofts XP licensing "offer" to upgrade everything by October, because they did enough research to realize that the cost down the road *substantially* outwieghs the apprent short term "savings". Interestingly, these are mostly shops that had "little to no interest" in Linux previously, but are now seriously investigating how much of their server infrastructure can be moved to Linux, and how quickly!
.NET, so you better either get behind it or sign up now for those XP subscriptions for mandatory 2-year upgrades...)
*Most* corporate app projects I know of are being written in Java (esp. J2EE). Good Java programmers are NOT having a hard time finding employment, even in what looks to become a serious downturn.
Interestingly enough, it looks as though Microsoft itself may be the most powerful force in making the platform of the future Java on Linux. That would be a very good thing, indeed, as Java and Linux are quite complementary, and Java (despite what you read here from the GNU-only Java-bashers) really does finally deliver on what it promised five or six years ago. The really good news abou this is that almost everyone now will be using *real* JVMs (i.e., Sun's or IBM's) rather than the putrid excuse MS has been foisting off on people for years in an attempt to undermine the entire Java concept.
To the skeptics: If you haven't looked seriously at Java in the past year or so, go back do your homework, paying particular attention to what J2EE, EJB, etc. have added to the entire Java world. I think you'll be impressed. (Of course Java isn't perfect - but it's the best thing out there that can do the job - best by a long, long, way. Oh, and it's really our only hope in containing
"The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last
The only reason Notes has not had a major virus attack is that Lotuscript is not on every teenagers hard drive.
If somebody converted a VBS virus to Lotus script, a lot of corporate networks would be in panic mode.
TummyX said
"BTW Sun didn't win. They settled."
But I think SUN did win.
They gambled that getting MS to support Java would bring much needed support for Java. And they gambled that the license was good enough that the courts would side with SUN in a legal dispute if MS did something disagreeable.
On one hand some of the early expectations for Java have not been met. On the other the primary goal of getting wide spread support has been achieved. That is a win in my book.
Later seeker
Unfortunatly, consumers hav proven they will eat what their fed. :(
"Java right now is still a moving target with a new verison coming out every half a year or so, and I don't think that bundling a JVM with an OS would have been beneficial to the language's development, as it would force developers to only use the XP version for fear of losing audience. "
If you mean that the version that MS would have installed would have been Java 1.1, rather than the current 1.3 (or might it be 1.4 when XP is released) I agree with you.
However, I doubt that MS's motivation has any relation to that situation. They see Java as a competitor, and will not give Java any help by including it with the OS installation. I also think that there is a customer need for Java, and there needs to be an effort to get Java installed on all the new PC's that are sold running WinXP. One way for this to happen would be for the PC OEMs to install it before the PC leaves their factory, but this sort of action was not allowed by MS contracts in the past. This is a real test case for MS's anti-trust behavior: if the PC OEM's customers want something, but MS contracts prevent the OEM's from providing it, then customer needs cannot be met due to MS's exclusionary contracts. DOJ, are you watching?
I agree, this is probably the beginning of the end for Java. The problem is people's lazyness... if you move in small enough steps, you can get them anywhere and they won't notice or care.
From the article: ... "We treated our own technology exactly the way we have treated Java," he said. The security settings are fully customizable by the user or by a computer-system administrator, he noted. "We made the default setting the highest possible and want the customer to be able to then make an informed choice," Culp said.
...
In a separate move affecting Java, Microsoft is tightening security settings in its new Windows and Office programs that in some cases will also disable Java programs. Microsoft's new products will now screen out Java as a possible carrier of computer viruses in e-mail and, under high-security settings, in Web-browsing software.
Does this incude Active X? In pre-XP releases selecting the "high" internet security level still didn't turn off Active X, the user has to set a "custom" security level to disable it. I doubt that M$ would really do anything about Active X since all kinds of stuff breaks when you disable it but since M$ claims to be concerned about security
- bridgette
Your basic user is a technophobe, afraid to install new software, because Microsoft made them (or maybe us before we knew better?) that way. When you come from the 're-install twice a year for a clean stable system' generation, then you'll understand what this really means.
Microsoft has won the hearts and minds of it's users, they are flat out afraid to try anything else because they're used to what they've got and 'experience' tells that 1) if it's not made by Microsoft, it probably won't work very well, 2) If Microsoft 'supports it' it'll probably be OK and most importantly 3) if Microsoft MAKES it, it must be a great new thing (even if it's been around for everyone else for years).
Microsoft wins not by convincing pointy haired bosses, but by culling those most likely to accept what they're fed. The end user.
Ctimes2
My cube. My friend. My solace. My prison.
But as a programmer, I have to say your assumption is wrong. I had a job where I needed to install stuff all the time for my own programming purposes, and wasn't permitted to. I had to scream my way up to VPs to get permission to install stuff. I HAD to, it was my job. And the lame-ass IT staff wouldn't do it, because it was "unsupported software". The funny thing was, I never, ever once called them for anything unless it was something they screwed up. So it cuts both ways.
Programmers should fix their own machines. Period. For one thing, it gives them sympathy with users when it "doesn't work". For another, if they can't, they probably can't program well, either.
Boss of nothin. Big deal.
Son, go get daddy's hard plastic eyes.
Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
Dude, settle down. If Java disappears, its functionality needs to be replaced by something. What do you think Microsoft would suggest? Probably ActiveX, .NET, ASP...
--
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
...now. See, yesterday I was trying to find the Microsoft Java API online to figure out WHY IN GOD(S)'S NAME I CAN'T USE SETCURSOR() IN IE. They had moved the page I had bookmarked. After wrestling with the MSDN Library "Help" for a while, I finally had to do a raw search for it. They're not even calling it a Java API anymore, it's all listed under Visual J++...probably so they can bury it all at once. I hate hate HATE their pathetic half-assed implementation...like moving the Point class up the inheritence heirarchy! What's up with that? Forcing everyone who uses standard Java to write their own personal Point class...,/rant>
------------------------
Co-founder of GerbilMechs
Microsoft has been accused of an "embrace and extend" attack on Java for years and has even lost a lawsuit on those grounds. Now they have rolled over and played dead - not shipping Java with the OS anymore and requiring users to go out and download the JVM they want.
Sun's got what they wanted and suddenly it doesn't look so good. Be careful what you ask for - you just might get it.
Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means
Mozilla (right now) isn't aimed for the average user tho. Someone who's going to have trouble downloading a JVM isn't going to know what Mozilla is in the first place. Netscape's releases include Sun's JVM. The average IE user is probably as likely to go download a JVM as they are to go download Netscape. As history as shown, that's not gonna happen.
Luckily most OEMs etc will eventually install the Sun Java VM and plugin on all boxes they sell, and if not, I bet that many magazines will just stick it on their cover CDs anyway at some point or another.
Web sites using Java applets are lousy. Most of the time, Java is only used for useless bloat like animated buttons or customized menus. It needs a lot of memory and CPU for this crap.
I'm using Opera on Linux, without Java support. And it's great. I really don't need a Java-enabled browser. Java is now old-fashionned, webmasters leaved it in favor of Flash. Flash achieves the same thing, but it's lightweight, less bug-prone and creating flash files doesn't require any programming knowledge.
-- Pure FTP server - Upgrade your FTP server to something simple and secure.
{{.sig}}
But will they also screen all your emails to make sure they don't contain any of that nasty GPL virus?
Stop spreading FUD! That's GPL cancer , mister!
Read the article. They can ship it for seven more years if they chose to.
Ñ'
And I think (based on a story posted about a week ago here on slashdot) that MS's OEM deals for XP will allow manufacturers to preinstall things they choose. (The article mentions this as well)However this being a manual operation might make it too costly for OEMs to pracice it widely.
Ñ'
Without the MS JVM holding people at 1.1, you can go ahead and use your "regular" JVM from Sun/IBM with your browser, making it compatible with the new bells and whistles. (If you're in for that sort of thing, anyway).
Ñ'
Also as far as I can recall, there is a javaw.exe file that you can call instead of java.exe to not have the console open up. Both have their uses.
Ñ'
Then you could package it as a .jar file and allow people easy access. Granted, not as simple as an applet to use, but not much functionality is lost, it's still platform-independant, and you get rid of a bunch of annoying limitations an applet imposes on you.
I think that there's this rush to put everyting on the web nowadays without stopping to think if it's really the appropriate medium for some of these applications.
Ñ'
My point about moving target simply meant to say that if you were to write an app today using Java 2D (intruduced in Jdk 1.2) it would not work with a huge installed base of MS JVMs, because they use 1.1, and while java has been (mostly) backwards compatible, you have to code to your target audience. So if MS continued shipping their Java 1.1 VM for the next 7 years as they could have, that's seven years you have to make a choice to go with the newest features/optimisations or go for the biggest audience.
Ñ'
Servlets
Ñ'
Java right now is still a moving target with a new verison coming out every half a year or so, and I don't think that bundling a JVM with an OS would have been beneficial to the language's development, as it would force developers to only use the XP version for fear of losing audience.
Ñ'
Java used the client side applets to gain prominence, but that was mostly a gimmick. Where Java really comes into its own is on the server, where the developer can control the JVM version, and doesn't have to use Java 1.0 for compatibility's sake.
Since server based Java never relied on the MS JVM, it remains unefective and just as viable as it ever was.
Ñ'
what difference does it make? jsp spits out html, browser parses/displays html. php spits out html, browser parses/displays html. asp spits out html, browser parses/displays html. do you have any idea what you're talking about? what technology you use on the server has absolutely nothing to do with what browser the user uses. if you're using jsp, your outputted pages should conform to the w3c spec. if you're using asp, your outputted pages should conform to the w3c spec.
baffled
karma
Dunno about the "Java Developer's Perspective" (they'd probably want to play with Sun's regardless), but this is sort of annoying. Java stuff is generall the sort of thing that I try to avoid, that I turn off in Netscape REGARDLESS of the fact that it makes it more stable.
In spite of that, sometimes I will need to use Java. I can't entirely get around it, and if I actually intended to use XP (I play with my machines a tad too much for anything to be worth that, honestly, though you never know...), this could get really annoying. I can see myself downloading the "Java Plug-In" once a month, and just not looking at stuff that I want to because I'm too lazy every-other (which, in the paranoid "MS must be trying to kill something off" sense, is what one would think MS is going for).
At the same time, I wouldn't mind Java going away on the internet...
Not like it's that hard to download a JVM...
The truth about Scientology, Xenu, and you: Operation Clambake
Another is to append the JAR to the end of a BMP, since windows can use a BMP as an icon, and ZIP (and thus JAR) files are end-based.
... I doubt that you need the imaging lesson from me. You've got the wrong approach to this problem though (and there's no need to pull out the "Evil Microsoft" buttons or anything.)
... I could really use a job. ;)
Why do that? First of all, "bitmaps" (they should be called PIXMAPS damnit) aren't going to look so great scaled down and up in all kinds of ways (or moved between color depths.) Icons are distinct for just this reason (they're really just files that can contain several bitmaps of predetermined resolutions/color-depths.)
So anyway
For a given file extension, an "icon handler" can be installed. This is a COM object that must implement the IUnknown (of course,) IPersistFile, and IExtractIcon interfaces (they're all very very easy to implement.)
This way, you can actually store the icon resource in the java file and the JRE can just install a handler for the Windows-specific implementation of the icon viewer (or you can add your own extension and push it into the Java community -- the java file format isn't too complicated.)
Are you actually employed as a programmer? I'm practically homeless and out of work
____________________
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The ends are ape-chosen, only the means are man's. -- Aldous Huxley
The Lisp joke in your signature is funny.
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The ends are ape-chosen, only the means are man's. -- Aldous Huxley
It's time for Sun to make a smart move.
They can benefit from this situation and make Java (recent version like 1.3) more present on the desktop.
Now that MS allows OEM to modify the Windows Setup with far less restriction than before, Sun can work with OEM (like Dell, Compact and others) to bundle the Java Plug-In in new PCs.
Unfortunatly, I doubt that Sun will take this course of action. They are to much focus on the server to actually do this.
What? You've been reading too much steve gibson. Windows 2000 has "raw" sockets too. Nothing new in XP.
They are forbidden to alter Java. They can include it all they want. Even the article states this.
A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. -- William James
Simply play back all the complaints and comments about MS Smart Tags and substutute Ad Blocking software. Both modify the content of websites without the authors permission.
What about using .cab files for signed applets... well I guess it isn't as bad as netscape's security library... but still. Browsers need to support an open implementation of java! Thats why mozilla is so cool... if only they could figure out there live connect problems....
M$ is probably pushing things to ActiveX, .NET, ASP
.NET. Can .NET run a program such as an applet without giving that program full control over the user's system?
Java: cross-platform. Loading a Java applet from a web page doesn't require granting any privileges to the web page. A Java applet can draw in the space it's given, take keyboard input when it has focus, and open new windows, just like a web page can, but it can't do much else.
ActiveX: Windows-only, and installing an ActiveX applet is equivalent security-wise to installing and running a native program, and then allowing the web page to interact with that program.
ASP: server-side, so it doesn't even try to do the same thing that Java did.
I guess that leaves us with
The shareholder is always right.
Once upon a time, Sun got an injection against Microsoft for their Java implementation. They forced MS to recall all products that had had Java in the box costing Microsoft in excess of US $1 Billion. Do you know why? Because Microsoft's Java implementation didn't pass Sun's test. Never mind that MS didn't have access to the test nor that Netscape failed the test on more counts. Can you blame MS for staying out of the way of a litigation-happy competitor? If you want Java, download it. Download Sun's implementation...it'll make you feel better, even if it isn't as fast. :-)
A speech...
BAH!
/me strokes lead pipe next to desk thinking evil things about evil microsoft
Of course this is exactly what M$ wants.
1.5 minutes for you. How long do you think it'll take my Grandma to do the same? My Mum? My Dad?
Na it ain't going to happen for them.
They'll stick with the defaults the all-knowing MS serves up and won't fiddle with them. Although I did nearly catch Dad downgrading to Navigator 4 at the suggestion of a website he was visiting.
That was a popular 1999/2000 mindrot.
During that time every website was attempting to be the be-all end-all do-all mega-portal. And every install wanted to be on your desktop, on your quicklaunch, on your start menu (in multiple places), in your taskbar, in your favourite, AND IN YOUR FACE DAMMIT.
Probably the only place they didn't end up in was the list of applications to uninstall.
Installation was not too bad (changing all my file associations), but uninstallation was filled with dire warnings about the consequences of uninstalling (including global warming if you remove ozone.dll).
Basically applications bloated. RealPlayer has 1000 features too many. It only has 1015 features, so hmmm, bit bloated there. No I don't want channels, no I don't want news alerts, and no I don't want your advertising.
Have you seen Quicktime 5 now plays MP3s?
Unix's philosophy is to have smaller discrete applications doing small bites in the command chain. How often do you see a command:
[user@unixhost]$ ps auxww | grep user | grep 142.. | sort | less
See, four small applications to do one thing, and they do that well.
On the other hand, if that was done by a Windows engineer, it would be similiar to:
C:\> processlist /a /u /x /ww /user=user /filter=pid:142* /sort /p
And that same mind rot is the reason why one application will attempt to do the task of 50 programs, change all your file associations, make its ugly icons appear in 20 different hidey holes, and attempt to do everything from what it is intended to, to making you a cup of coffee and juicing your oranges!
(Especially bad when you don't have any oranges, and you don't like instant coffee.)
I have to say, Java security is pretty good compared to Active-X and anything microsoft has created with VBScript support. Microsoft provides overrides for this though which can allow any applet to do anything. In netscape 4.x, if the Java applet is not properly signed, it won't give permissions to it even if you click the grant button. Even still you can only do so much with stupid users.
.NET. Sure you can get the java plug-in. But the java 2 plugin is available now, and yet no-one downloads it. It is better, faster and support newer stuff. People don't like to have to upgrade all these plugins all the time.
.NET.
I think the real reason they are pulling Java is because it's what they are trying to do with
The reason Microsoft used Java before was because they were trying the standard embrace, extend, break tactics. VJ++ was a flop covered in lawsuits... So they go to plan B, kill Java and make
Isn't downloading the Flash plugin an extra step. This hasn't stopped web pages from splattering it all over the place, and presumably hasn't stopped that great of a percentage of people from viewing it.
Then *gasp* *don't* *use* *Java*. If average people can't use it, don't design with it. There is more than one way.
Look. There is no use fighting it. Microsoft will coerce users into upgrading to XP. They've done it before, and they will do it again. It will be a 3 pronged strategy. Office XP will only work on Windows XP, OEMs will be stronghanded into shipping XP, and newer devices will be unsupported on older versions of Windows. Bang - within 3-4 years, everyone will be in the subscription model running XP.
Now, Microsoft harnesses the other thing they KNOW about the user - the thing used to kill netscape. The user does not change his default settings. Most users never change their browser home page. Most users never install any new software to work with their browser. Most users never delete the icons that ship on their first boot screen.
BTW, netscape and AOL know this as well - that is why they change the default settings for plugins (read media players) when they install. Hardly any users will change it back.
Remember, protocols on the web need to be broadly supported, or people will not use them. If even 25% of all users cannot access java without installing it themselves, java is dead.
And Microsoft can always claim that they made it VERY easy for the user to install java themselves, and it will not change a thing. They could even make the install a one-click thing from their web site - and it would not change a thing except Microsoft's defensibility in court.
Gates and Co. didn't achieve a 40% profit margin by being nice guys. They have a monopoly, and they know how to use it.
While I would agree that Java on the server-side is much more prominent and useful, Applets have their place. It's very useful to be able to shed some of you servers computational load onto the client side usually with better results. Even the crapiest SMTP client applet works ten times better than the shitty server side mail clients I have seen.
I am not a number! I am a man! And don't you
Um... the point of the article is that Microsoft's browser _won't_ include a JVM--if people want to eXPerience Java, they'll need to download one.
There's always the chance that this will all backfire on MS and everyone to switch to Netscape to get their JVM. It seems more likely, though, that OEMs will install a JVM with their distributions of XP, and those that don't buy through OEMs will be willing/able to spend a little time downloading.
~=Keelor
Redmond: the land of nmake-believe
Heh... I read that as "if it wasn't invented by Macintosh and stolen by Microsoft, it's not worth using, right?"
Funny how the mind interpolates things.
(Yeah, Xerox labs... blah blah blah)
because of some MS 'warning message' on how (possibly) harmful java is to your computer
I remember reading the lengthy legal boilerplate license that came with Java and remarking about the qualifications that Sun would not be held responsible and did not recommend that it should be used to control nuclear power plants, flying aircraft or medical life-support equipment.
It was buried alongside the more typical disclaimers, etc.
The funny thing was, that when MS was distributing Java (and not liking it one bit, as you might recall), they showcased that particular snippet from Sun's license. Maybe they figured it would scare off the Aunt Mabel users of the world from toying with the dangers of Java and unprotected sex, but I found it funny as hell.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
mov ax,4C00h
int 21h
which in turn is an MS-DOS call to terminate the current process, returning an exit code of zero.
So what's your point?
If each OEM would bundle the latest stable JRE with their Windows-based PCs then this would be non-issue. It has been how long since Sun updated JDK 1.3.1? And just how different is it from JDK 1.3.0? All sun needs to do to make its JRE consumer friendly is make it transparent to the end user (ie no dos box popping up, it just quietly loads the Java app) and to make an updater utility that automatically updates to the newest JRE/JDK.
IE, OTOH, shows up on most new PCs and that's all Joe Sixpack needs to worry about. He's unlikely to go get another browser if he already has one, and he's just as unlikely to bother with the download of a JVM (or even truly appreciate why he should).
We could all fix this in no time, but most regular users will just see a message saying "Would you like to download potentially dangerous software to view this site's potentially dangerous content? Yes/No?" and click the No option.
bullshit, this is a big deal.
.Net SDK's on my windoze partition wasted java support in IE. Clearly MS have basically ported the entire J++ dev to C#. C# being very similar to Java, the only people that lose from this development are people trying to develop cross-platform apps.
The MS java vm (at least the 1.1 version) was in fact the best of the breed.. As a simple 1.1 based vm (admittedly without some key features such as RMI) it was the best, fastest, stablest VM out there bar none... (Sorry but its true)
With 95%+ browser market share going to MS at the moment, this is basically just another option we effectively can't use on mainstream sites, thereby having to resort to *stuff that M$ approve of* (like flash). The biggest loser from all this in-fighting over java, is us the developers (oh, ok and a few users).
Of course if sun hadn't sued M$, but more particularly if M$ hadn't been such arseholes about java in the first place then none of this would never have happened.
One of the few really good things about java was its support in browsers all the way back to netscape 1.1 (at least the core 1.02 jdk). Now thats gone. arghhh!!!! Just when 1.1 support was starting to be universal.
I supsected as much would happen when installing the early beta
So this is actually a really nasty blow on the part of MS. Did Sun not see this coming? Arrghhhh!
I'm really really sad to hear this news.
I am a Microsoft supporter (There goes my Karma) and I'm not a big fan of Java, but I think that this is a mistake.
.NET. I've mostly used VB.NET to develop both desktop and web applications. I think it is a great technology, but Microsoft needs to realize that it is going to take time for it to take hold. Discontinueing Java support this early will make more users mad than it will make users happy. The first time Johnny Computer User tries to play a Java game online and has to go download a 6 Meg JVM he is going to be pissed.
.NET instead of Java, and I'm not sure most Webmasters are ready to do this.
Just recently I started programming using
I can't think of a good reason to take out Java unless it is to force sites to start using
Someone on slashdot finnaly gets it! /. that I'm a web-designer next time.
I can't say how many times I've tried to make this point. But to just be ignored. Maybe I shouldn't tell
This guy deserves a score:5.
Programs should either support something, or not support it. Not support it in a poorly done half-way.
Anyway.. I do belive, that if you link to a CSS file, the proper way. Netscape will not recongise it:
And if your talking about tags, they rarely have a use in plain valilla HTML anyway (if the user doesn't want CSS enabled, then they probably don't want you messing with there fonts either. Use , , , and or
tags instead.Should read:
, , , etc, and , or tags instead.
Should read:
<H1>, <I>, <B>, etc, and <SPAN>, or <DIV> tags instead.
I thought 'Plain Old Text' meant plain old text!
javascript is still going to be included in the browser, just not a 'full java applet' vm. javascript is not java any more than an apple is an orange. so don't worry, you'll get to keep your rollovers and popup windows.
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
Windows XP also doesn't have support for RealVideo (Windows never has) so that involved me downloading a 5 minute download from Real.
Windows 95 (OSR2) actually had a realplay.exe file included in the base install (in either the windows or system directory). I believe it was version 4 (or lower) though, and I don't know if it was associated with all of Real's content at the time (but it did allow a friend of mine who'd never heard of Real audio to listen to files in IE 3.x).
-- If at first you do succeed, try to hide your astonishment. -- Harry F. Banks
Beside, considerring how trendy web developers are,
.NET does not offer anything more then these other "internet" languages, but these dip wad 'webmasters' need to do whats new so they can make them sefl's appear knowledgable so they can generate some selfworth in oirder to cover up the fact that they couldn't code there way out of there ass with a flow chart.
you may have hit the nail on the head. Its that need to be 'trendy and cool' that is causing many of the problems web sites have today. If corporations would relize the amount of waste these glorified graphic artist generated in there company they would have a shit fit.
webmsaters, the bane of the internet
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
This is an important point -- MS has been behaving recently like they really don't believe that there's going to be another trial, whereas that is exactly what the Appeals court has ordered: a new evidentiary hearing to determine remedies. The ruling explicitly stated that in a fast moving industry like this one, new evidence should be considered to see how circumstances have changed, to construct a remedy that actually solves the problem.
On the positive side for them is the new set of rules for what OEMs can change on systems. (Which isn't that much.) On the negative side, we have this, the problems with Kodak (can't find a link right now), their fight with AOL, and of course their much-discussed attempt to monopolize web services through .NET. Regarding this last one in particular, a new round of discovery on Microsoft internal documents could be particularly damning, since so far most of what we have to go on is rumors and leaks.
Keep an eye on the antitrust case; MS may have seriously mis-played their hand.
Quantum mechanics: the dreams that stuff is made of.
I think the timing is appropriate. Netscape has lost the browser war, IE WILL be the vast majority of client browsers in a year's time. That's the year that dotNET needs to establish itself.
Like I said, I think the time frame to ditch IE5 and NS4 is much shorter. IE5 users will all upgrade to 6 (how many IE4 users are there now?), and Netscape is dying. And when you say "anybody designing a web app", what about intranets? Trust me, a LOT of companies using JSP will switch to ASP.NET, because ASP.NET just has VASTLY more functionality with the rest of MS's products. A large number of major companies use MS products (exchange, word, outlook). Until now they had the same functionality with ASP, JSP, PHP (actually, PHP was more powerful). Now that's all changed. ASP.NET can now interact with corporate intranets like JSP and PHP will never be able to. That's very attractive for intranet managers.
dotNET already has functionality in IE5. Netscape will be GONE by the time IE7 shows up...you know what that means? IE7 will be used by everybody except for nerds. And the reason I know that dotNET has functionality with IE5 is because I just migrated to it.
A) People on a 56k modem don't want to download the JRE. B) You're right that this will keep Java at least thrashing in the throes of death for a while.
And the reason we're worried is that dotNET will enable intranets using Microsoft products (a very large number) more than ever before. JSP is a thing of the past. PHP will continue to be used by houses that don't rely on MS technologies, but for those who do, ASP.NET is by far the way to go.
I just migrated to ASP.NET last night on a pre-public server for the hell of it. I learned in the process the language's potential. Before, ASP was very limited (CDONTS, woo) and PHP + nix was vastly more powerful. And while PHP is more flexible (anything nix is more flexible than an MS product), at least MS has caught up in functionality. And that's all that most companies will have been waiting for.
From the average user POV, IE7 will most probably be the only browser many developers will target, since NS is out the door and not updating now. If you're writing a webpage for a user running IE7, would you rather write it in ASP.NET, JSP, or PHP? The answer is ASP.NET because you will get functionality and predictability.
This actually bodes poorly for people running nix houses. nix + Oracle or mySQL + PHP is an excellent solution nowadays. But what happens when in order to interface with that backend all your users will be using IE7? There will be pressure to migrate.
Groupware: Does that count as three?
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
A website could say that their copyrighted content requires application of a "process" (language from the DMCA) to access the work. The process would be the interpretation and rendering of a work. They could say that only a web browser which fits their criteria (no ad-blocking, etc), is authorized to access the content. Heck they could ban any browsers on a non-Microsoft platform if they wanted to. Just put it in the terms of service. That mgiht not even be necessary - nothing on DVDs mentions any restrictions on what may legally be used to view them.
I know the above is a bogus argument, but it would likely work. If you doubt that, realize that apparently the FBI feels they can charge a Russian who sold Russian software on a Russian website with an offense in Santa Clara California, so anything goes, apparently (if you are the goverment/corporations).
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
What are you talking about? Apple ships a JDK1.3 compatible JVM standard with Mac OSX. They are embracing java (somebody else's idea) just as much as anybody.
Actually, in IE you can't even connect to the server from which the applet was loaded. At least not to a different port. I just tired this with a DatagramSocket and it baulked at me.
I think industry and public XP support is dropping like the proverbial lead balloon at the moment.
MS's VM was frozen at the beginning of the Sun lawsuit, so it is not really that relevant anymore. We haven't used it for a very long time.
We always bundle a JRE with our apps anyway, in order to be independent of anything the user might already have installed. So, if they download our stuff, then they have a VM. No problem!
Should Sun then be required to support C# if (when) it becomes a popular language? After all, as I understand it, only Sun produces Solaris boxes, and by not supporting C#, they are limiting Microsoft's ability to compete with Sun on that platform.
Don't get me wrong; I was all for a break-up, and I do think that MS should be smacked around a bit with a week-dead trout, but forcing Java support would put Sun in a powerful position of being able to ask for almost anything for the licensing. They could demand $25 per copy of Windows sold, and make a killing, simply because Microsoft has no other choice lest they be found in contempt of court.
Making the same documentation available to outside programmers as is used by Microsoft's own C# dev team is a fix; forcing full support is not.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
I was using Sun as an example. There are plug-ins other than QT that play .MOV files, just like there are non-Sun JVMs. Sorry for the confusion.
Until Java is made into a true standard, it is still proprietary. Windows is (arguably) essentially a standard, but essentially != actual. Until Sun completely relinquishes control to the standards community, it remains proprietary, and licensing thus remains under Sun's control.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
--
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
I think most banner ad solutions (such as the ones Slashdot displays) use Javascript, not Java. Javascript will still be in there, since it's part of the browser, not the OS. The companies who use Java will probably use Javascript (or another method) to display Java to those with it installed and the MS solution to those without, if it becomes a problem.
"Tea is a simple yet powerful template language. Tea is most commonly used for creating dynamic web pages in the TeaServlet. The TeaServlet is a template engine that works with the Tea template language. The TeaServlet makes it easy for developers to create web applications that separate the data aquisition from the presentation."
You can find out more about Tea by going to Disney's open source website or reading Jason Hunter's "Servlet Programming, 2nd Ed."
Over the last few years, I've spent a whole lot of (professional, mind you) time writing Java - all of it in server applications. Java's turned into a great platform to write server/network apps in. But even for java apps (let's not even *talk* about how pathetic applets still are), the GUI toolkit is still not really worth the trouble.
:)
Java can drop off the face of web browsers everywhere, and it won't hurt the language's future in the slightest. Well, maybe it'll give sun an excuse to try yet again at putting together a UI toolkit....
I just hope they set a warning that you need a plugin to run Java,
From the article:
Without this step, "any Web page that contains Java applications will not run -- it will be a dead page," said Jan Vitek, a professor of computer science at Purdue University,
A "dead page" tells me that it isn't popping up a warning, but giving you like a 404....
UGH!
--
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
JavaScript is not realted to Java in any way except the name! Initially, Sun called it LiveScript, but since Java was a hot technology at the time, they decided to call it JavaScript. So bascially, it's about a cool name. Besides, Microsoft doesn't use javascript, remember? The use JScript.
The end result of this is that many banner ad services will switch to Microsoft, rather than just getting angry.
Does this mean that they will stop using Java? That's great, because unless I download the MS plugin then I won't be able to see their ads. The ignorant masses will then receive all the ads while the rest of us blissfully enjoy a web experience free of commercial harassment. Or is this too pie-in-the-sky?
Remember, You are unique...just like everyone else.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The above post is simply not true. The vast majority of users will click Yes/OK to any dialog box that comes up, no matter how scary.
Guido van Rossum disagrees. Perhaps you should correct him.
nor am I saying the best architecture included that various Motorola chipsets that plagued the Macintosh over the years
I programmed 68K assembly for about 2 years and x86 for about 3 and I would say that when the 68000 was introduced it was the finest microprocessor architecture within realistic grasp (in terms of cost) available to the mass market.
Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
Edward Everett (1794 - 1865)
Quote: Mozilla also ships without a JVM, and the first time you try to access a site that needs Java it'll tell you about that and ask if you want to download.
Uh-huh. And right now that mechanism is failing. Try searching Usenet for "Mozilla" and "java" and "previous installation attempt". Mozilla 0.9.2 has problems with the download install.
My point is that pre-installed components work better because the vendor gets to work out all the problems up front, instead of blasting it out to the world for 6.1 billion people to figure out for themselves.
Freedom to innovate indeed.
One simple rule for its versus it's
I think MS will stop supporting win98 as soon as XP ships. The same will happen to winME when blackcomb ships. By that time we'll all be arguing about who's .NET implementation is the best...
imagine that!
Millennium got it right from the consumer perspective, but the company I support uses a ton of java. Yes JVM is installed as well as the newest version of java for windows from Sun is installed as well. Many corporations have adopted java for both internal and external use. this will provide many weeks of headaches while java programmers come to terms with the impact that this will have. I for one am rolling out about 20 new pc's (win2k) for the java testing due to performance issue with win95/98/me. Personally I would take a perl or cgi script over ms or java any day.
why are you blaming MS. Remember the law suit from Sun? MS is required by law to drop Java support within 7 years and it's great because Java apps are real slow.
So now you people are complaining because MS ISN'T "intergrating" things into windows? This is a step in the right direction, no?....now MS is letting you CHOOSE what you want installed.
Kiss my shiny metal ass
If you don't like XP then DON'T FRIGGEN BUY IT.
Go play with linux or something......
Kiss my shiny metal ass
I mean hey, everyone is going to be using XP, what with its revolutionary licensing scheme, its built in support for encoding Windows Media, and its ability to use raw sockets, we may as well just jump on the bandwagon now. Seriously though, I mean, Microsoft has forced its will on us before, but at least it was one thing at a time. This is really starting to add up. Also, isn't that conflicting logic between support of raw sockets and lack of support for java. With sockets, they say a few people wanted it, now they're saying only a few people would need it?
Information wants Coq
Java is also Propritery. Sun Microsystems own it. The reason I take a dim view of this M$ move is that It limits the choice of users. It also limits the choice of Web Programers.
Java is "a tool for a job". Like any programming language it is better suited to some tasks, like the web. It's security isn't perfect, but it is better than anthing else.
Also as a WebProgrammer, I willl now be forced to use ActiveX. This makes business sense, as if 95% of your users (depennding on market segment) use a browser with no Java (by default) & with ActiveX, I'll have to use it. Programers write better code when working with tool they like.
There is also a huge cross-compatibility issue. I like the web, I like to see all the content on a site. Will M$ release an ActiveX plugin for Konquerer or Opera.
This was allways going to happen after the Sun -V- M$ case, pty tough
They can't really do anything that ASP/COM can't do...
:-)
.Net is going to struggle (other than being very very late to the table)
Well, except for one MAJOR thing... write once, run across multiple platforms. I develop Java code that runs on the server, and did all my development on NT. Copied the files over to Solaris, and it just worked. Try THAT with ASP/COM...
This, I think, is one of the biggest wins of the Java-on-the-server platform. And one of the biggest reasons that
- Spryguy
- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
What if I would RATHER download a different JVM, rather than the out-dated Microsoft one? Seems that microsoft is still pushing ITS JVM on everyone, and that the market will still be bound to the 1.1 JVM as a result...
(unless a lot of OEMs decide to preinstall Sun's JVM for Windows or something...)
- Spryguy
- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
Interesting that you should mention Java Web Start. It looks awfully useful, and we're considering it for extranet deployment of the front-end of a large three-tier java system as new versions come out. But I see extremely little about people using it, and was wondering if there is some reason that it isn't being used. What else do people do for reployment of new releases of relatively thick clients inside of customer's firewalls in the real world?
Oh, as if Java isn't proprietary. I'm not seeing any ISOfication coming soon.. Dave
Hey I wasn't saying everything should be an ISO standard.
I was referring to that attempt to make Java an ISO standard, after which the ISO committee dropped it because Sun didn't want to give it up.
MS has been found to be a monopoly that abuses its power. There will be corrective action.
Short of breaking up the company, forcing MS to support competing products *as much as they support their own, unrelated products* is the best fix.
So, it is very concievable that MS will be forced to support other company's languages / programs in Windows as much as it supports their own. So, we could find MS forced to host a Java VM on any Windows distro with a C# VM, for example.
The minute you visit a site that uses a Java applet, you are prompted to download the Microsoft VM, which is about 5 megs. There is a check box that disables this ever coming up again, in which case you have to head over to Windows Update. Personally, I think this is a good thing, because I'm not a fan of Java applets. Especially that evil Red Sheriff 'tracking' applet, which is common on Australian sites, and is very invasive.
As for the warning message, it doesn't mention that Java is harmful at all. It just says that to view everything on this page, you must install the Virtual Machine, which is 5 megs.
Con, the download is large and Joe Sixpack won't have much of a clue where to get it or how to install it. Possibly addressed by sites putting a [Get Java Here] button on their pages.
Really, though, I've pretty much by this time seen enough to advise anyone against buying WinXP. It seems like buying a Hunting Dog named "Tripod". 95/98/2000 pretty much do all that Windows users need. The ultimate question is when would Microsoft refuse to offer new copies of anything other than WinXP for sale, thus binding OEMs to ship new PCs with it. There's still a number of OEM's shipping new PCs with 98. We just bought a large number of new Dells (at work, don't flame me over it, not my choice) with Win98.
-- .sig are belong to us!
All your
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
If it's just to different for IT shops, let alone large corporate customers to switch to their new and improved architecture and market plan, then it'll be a very slow seller.
For consumers, who surf the web, this would be a reason to not buy a WinXP box. Why should they spend the bucks and run into non-functioning page after page?
It's hard enough to imagine Amazon, Yahoo, CNN, eBay and dozens of large sites regearing their entire web architecture just to accomodate this change in direction from Redmond. I suspect there'll be an about-face on this, too.
-- .sig are belong to us!
All your
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
The Register has a good article on this, according to them M$ referred to "business reasons", not security reasons, in explaining why they aren't shipping a JVM.
Actually ...they are forbidden to ship java, they lost the case against sun.
You're a dumbass. Read the damned article:
A Microsoft spokesman said Java support was diminished for "business reasons" and noted that it follows last year's legal dispute with Java's creator, Sun Microsystems Inc. Under terms of a settlement with Sun, Microsoft was given the right to continue to use early versions of Sun's Java code in Microsoft products for seven years, but made no commitment to do so.
We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked.
After trying to cripple Java as a new technology and continuing on to develop C#, why would they want to support another rival technology they stole? While Java is not completely where we want it to be in order to see a wholesale move, it's getting there. I have seen some very impressive things of late and I am moving more of my work over. all Java will need is a killer app to adjust this issue
There's a FPS programmed in Java being demoed by Sun at Quakecon in a few days. I guess they are having some form of tournament to win a Cobalt Cube or something to that effect. Of course, this is funded by Sun so it isn't really showing that Java will be excepted as a client-side language, but it'll be interesting to see what people think of the demo.
Mozilla also ships without a JVM, and the first time you try to access a site that needs Java it'll tell you about that and ask if you want to download.
.NET, ASP or any other proprietary crap they have, I just hope they set a warning that you need a plugin to run Java, or this can backfire on them when DOJ adds this to the list of evidence on the proccess.
M$ is probably pushing things to ActiveX,
--
What ? Me, worry ?
A couple of comments....
.net won't be released at the same time as XP, so they are at the same disadvantage with respect to pre-installation. And you can bet that the download for a .net plugin will be more than the JRE plugin.
.sig and I must scream.
Most people *will* accept the download, however sites that use Applets need to be persuaded to utilize the Java plug-in, rather than relying on the browser's default implementation. Users are accustomed to downloading plugins (see Shockwave, CometCursor, and other such garbage). Of course, web page developers will have to be persuaded to use the object/embed tags, rather than the applet tag. This will be an uphill battle as IE requires the use of the Object tag, Netscape requires Embed, and good luck on getting users to remember the proper use of both.
Commercial applications (non-applets) written in Java are distributed with a self-installing JVM. As more and more applications are developed using Java, the pre-installation of a JVM will become less of an issue. I doubt that many people are going to distribute their applications for public consumption as a single JAR file. The average user (hell, MOST users) don't know how to invoke them.
Most importantly, the viability of Java as a platform does not rest on whether it is adopted by the home consumer (and that is who we are talking about here). It does not rest of whether it is used in the typical web page. Java's viability and future rests on the server-side, not the client-side. MS's attempt to preclude Java from the default client will have ZERO effect on Java.
I have no
Ryosen
One man's "Troll, +1" is another man's "Insightful, +1".
Let's just get this straight. Java != Javascript. Rollovers, menus, etc on web pages are Javascript. Applets and server-side code are Java. I feel better now.
I'm sure M$ will secretly release a nice java virus or threat of some kind. This will in turn set the media into a frenzy and M$ can step up to the plate and say "Our OS won't allow such things to happen..." Of course, they won't say anything more than that to allow themselves to look good. Everyone will hear about it on their "Power Lunch" and run out to buy XP. Pretty slick.
Please, don't speak about technologies that you know nothing of. Your comments about why .NET won't make it are not only innacurate, but entirely misleading.
.NET Gee, I hope nobody else is looking at creating any new development technologies cause obviously they will all be "too late"
.NET may become popular on the client side in the next 5 years, however in order to make such inroads Java applets have, it has to be available a wide variety platforms. It's going to be a while before this happens.
.NET is specifically built to support downlevel browsers and competitors browsers. The server-side controls implemented in ASP.NET automatically generate appropriate client-side code for the targetted browser (including Netscape 4, 6, IE 4, IE 5, and IE6).
.NET applets as a replacement for Java applets, which is what this discussion is all about. BTW, If you play with ASP.NET, you'll find doing things like basic clientside JavaScript to be a pain in the ass, let alone Remote Scripting, which is what we use to grab data from our database without reloading the page.
.NET does not require a new platform. It works on existing platforms.
.NET code, you need the .NET runtime, which is currently available for Win32 ONLY. Soon after, we'll see a FreeBSD version. Java on the other hand runs on tons of different platforms.
.NET won't make it?
.NET applets, Microsoft has dropped Java support in thier newest browser. However, It is still supported by downloading a plug-in. My point is, because it Java won't be integrated and will require the user to download a plug-in much like Flash does, people won't mind downloading the plug-ins.
Here's a clue: I've been using dotNET since Beta 1. I currently write ASP based applications and have been doing Windows development for nearly 7 years now.
1. Too Late.
I see. So within the next 6 months the entire world will be using some development language that is so spectacular that they will never choose to switch to
I'm sorry, it is possible that
2. Website Requires IE7???
No,
You're talking about ASP.NET. We're talking about the potential of
.NET does not require XP at all. Not to develop, not to deploy, not at all.
No it doesn't, but it does require the runtime which has already developed a decent sized footprint.
3. Java supports tons of platforms and works today for most browsers
See 2.
Now that you know we're talking about, you can readily agree that in order to run
4. Plug-Ins aren't foreign
What does this have to do with why
Now you know we're talking about Java applets and
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
I guess that leaves us with .NET. Can .NET run a program such as an applet without giving that program full control over the user's system?
It's designed to do that...
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
This whole Java/C# thing has been giving me the chills the past few days.
This is one scenario that scares me, if for know other reason that I don't know what to think about it:
(1) MS drops Java
(2) MS supports C#/CLI
(3) Java dies out, C#/CLI gains ascendancy
I would have no fears about the future of Java if MS didn't have a monopoly and standards-based replacement for it.
The truth is, C#/CLI is a much better, more comprehensive implementation than Java (e.g., how many of us have said "I wish there were a JIT compiler for C++", or "I wish there were an ahead-of-time compiler for Java", or "I wish you could compile/run all these different languages using one JIT/VM"?), and MS's monopoly can pressure developers into adopting it over legacy concerns. C#/CLI is also potentially a standards-based language implementation, something that Java doesn't have, at least superficially.
So why am I nervous? Because this beautiful, standards-based language implementation is coming from MS. Many of us know how well MS encourages language standards (e.g., MSVC++, J++). Just because MS proposes a standard doesn't mean they have to implement it.
In this way, Java's "closed" standardization process may be more "open" than MS's. I say "may" because we just don't know, and that's the fear. Will MS lure/coerce people into C#/CLI and then abandon it/cripple it?
Of course, just because MS doesn't follow their own standards doesn't mean the standard isn't there. Thus, there is Mono, the nascent open-source implementation of C#/CLI. But still, I don't know what MS is capable when it comes to coercion and manipulation, and it's disturbing.
It upsets me I can't make a decision about implementing a language without being terrified I will contribute to what I consider an abominable monopoly. It also upsets me that MS could potentially expand its monopoly to the DEVELOPMENT process.
Many have, and will, say that Java won't be affected by C#/CLI. But I say that they should consider what could happen when the corporation controlling 95% of desktops and how much of the server market drops Java and replaces it with a better, "standards-based" implementation. How much will developers' legacy concerns weigh then?
- Dan I.
Still beta, I know, but startling nonetheless.
- Dan I.
You might be missing an important part of the MS strategy. As the greatest competitor to MS is MS itself, it is to their advantage to release shoddy software. This way Joe Sixpack is motivated to pay for the 'upgrade' which features "increased reliability!"
A steaming cup of soykaf would be real wiz right now.
You know, like Planetarion for example. Oh sorry, you need Java to do that...
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
IBM.
Their JRE is better than Sun's (I'm using Linux). They are an OEM, and happen not to be big fans of Microsoft.
And they love Java, writing utilities in it like VisualAge FJ, and little stuff like their ServeRAID config tool.
Plus they give away what I regard as the best compiler - Jikes.
Disclaimer: Maybe they already bundle their JRE, I've never bought an IBM system.
Brian.
You prob went wherever you were directed to download a plugin, and were done with it.
GUESS WHAT!!! Its even MORE brainless now in most cases. If you don't have Billy Bob's Big Badass Plugin, it pops up and automatically asks if you want to install it! Most users just click the download button without thinking because they want to see the latest "George Bush is stupid" cartoon.
---"What did I say that sounded like 'Tell me about your day?'"---
On the bright side, this will spell the end of rollover images, news tickers, and other bandwidth eating idiocies.
On the bad side, I fear many pages will choose to substitute the cursed VBScript, which is actually (in my opinion) a bit superior to Javascript, but unfortunately is proprietary Microsoft-only.
If Microsoft is trying to force people to abandon the well loved and freely availible language for a language that would, in essense, make Microsoft Internet Explorer the only browser availible, they should simply say so, rather than mucking about it.
Of course, this is all speculation.
Given a reasonably level playing field, who would win a fight between a bear and a shark?
I wish the moderators thought like you did :)
Given a reasonably level playing field, who would win a fight between a bear and a shark?
A couple points:
1) Microsoft Execs know that what they are saying is a crock of crap. They know that no one in their right mind believes them, but lying is preferable to saying "HAHAHAHA, we shall crush Java and no one can stop us!" because that could come back to bite them in court.
2) You're absolutely right, many banner ad services are gonna be going crazy over this, but when Microsoft will inevitably refuse to back down, I bet many of them will consider switching to VBScript, or whatever the hell proprietary language Microsoft wants them to use rather than losing over half their customers (I'm sure over half of PC users will either be too stupid or lazy to download Java). The end result of this is that many banner ad services will switch to Microsoft, rather than just getting angry.
Or I could just be paranoid, who knows.
Given a reasonably level playing field, who would win a fight between a bear and a shark?
>>"Now, MS is going to effectively block java-based ads for 95% of the browsing market; this will not go unnoticed. "
>hmmm.. Lynx does not display pictures. therefore it does not display GIF ads. Should we sue them now for filtering banner ads?
Dude, what part of 95% didn't you understand?
Reality is indistinguishable from any sufficiently advanced fantasy.
Yes, you can use Flash (a lot of people don't even have it) or ActiveX. Now what do you think the choice is going to be for those web designers and users? For a company that was just declared a monopoly, MS isn't trying very hard to clean up their reputation. Do you think this'll come up in court?
Not to mention that ActiveX security leaves a little to be desired.
Tightening Java security
In a separate move affecting Java, Microsoft is tightening security settings in its new Windows and Office programs that in some cases will also disable Java programs. Microsoft's new products will now screen out Java as a possible carrier of computer viruses in e-mail and, under high-security settings, in Web-browsing software. This move, first signaled in a software "security patch" distributed last year, is part of a broader effort by Microsoft to help stamp out the spread of computer viruses.
Finally, Microsoft is doing something to combat those horrible java-based email viruses! But will they also screen all your emails to make sure they don't contain any of that nasty GPL virus?
Hey, if it wasn't invented by Microsoft, it's not worth using, right?
;)
I wonder if they'll offer that on Windows Update like they did for 98...
Maybe the inconvenience of getting the latest JVM will push Joe Web Page Designer to refrain from using Java to make their pages do 'cool' (translated: useless) things. As a Java developer I'm happy to see a step toward dumping the browser-bundled JVM -- less work for me because I can code to one standard. It's already hard enough to keep up with the frequent Sun releases, let alone having to support multiple JVMs from various browser vendors. My dev team recently agreed to create only stand-alone apps and stay away from applets where we have to worry about compatability issues.
- jonese (http://farmaccidentdigest.com)
As for applets, I agree we could do without them. Java Web Start looks like a better idea for the kinds of things we do with applets.
The JVM that IE has isn't exactly the best of breed. (Although I understand that it used to be), so making the users get it on their own is not a devestating blow to Java.
Not to mention that Java's promise as a desktop application language have flopped big time.
Java is now a server-centric language, applets are at a distant second place. I can't recall the last time I've seen a Java applet, for that matter, except for maybe that annoying "hit the monkey" ads, and I won't miss those.
Beside, considerring how trendy web developers are, *what is the big deal*?
Already, if you use many things, you require your user to download a plug-in to do it. And in many cases, this can be fully automated process.
In any case, this is not very threatening to Java.
--
Two witches watched two watches.
--
Two witches watched two watches.
Which witch watched which watch?
Granted, Sun developed Java initially, and still chairs the Java Community Process for changes to the language and its environment, but it by no means gets all its own way against the likes of HP, IBM, Apple, Borland, Oracle, Sony ...
Can anyone imagine a "Windows Community Process", where MS sat round the table with leading industry techies and discussed which Windows APIs should be changed, how new technologies should be integrated, etc.?
The whole point of desktop Java is that it should like be a common infrastructure for non-trivial webpage code.
MS wouldn't play by the 'cross-platform-compatibility' rules that Sun set out for Java, and I think the popular desktop environment is diminished by its loss from XP.
Finally, since there are several sources of Java VMs apart from Sun, I don't think I would like to be told to install Sun's JVM, when other competing VMs run better, and on more platforms (IA-64, PowerPC, Linux, AIX, ... OS/2!)
"Now, MS is going to effectively block java-based ads for 95% of the browsing market; this will not go unnoticed. "
hmmm.. Lynx does not display pictures. therefore it does not display GIF ads. Should we sue them now for filtering banner ads?
get real dude
If an experiment works, something has gone wrong.
This is another fine example of people making mountains out of Microsoft molehills.
Most people around here tend to think of them as blackheads, I think. Or perhaps pus-filled pimples.
You can accomplish anything you set your mind to. The impossible just takes a little longer.
1. Users have to download JVM to use Java.
2. Many users have slow connections and/or are reluctant to use Java.
3. Designers decide that they had better not use Java since most users do not have it installed.
3. Java go byebye.
4. It's okay though, because we have C#!
In this way, Microsoft can reduce the user base from both the end user and the developer standpoint.
We're not scaremongering... This is really happening, happening
I enjoy programming in java, and think it has a lot of promise as a clean, readable, and fast development tool.
I'm also a sports fan (baseball + hockey mostly), and I would die without ESPNs gamecast applet, and i'm beginning to like Yahoo's stattracker... which make me think java's real promise in browsers is to facilitate complicated interactions with server applications w/o involving HTTP. chat programs, stock tickers, etc are all great example of where applets' real strength lies. I know that TIBCo's messaging software comes with a package for messaging between applets and their originating server which seemed really promising... we did some pretty cool stuff with it at a previous company...
A: None. The Universe spins the bulb, and the Zen master merely stays out of the way.
And now we see Extinguish.
Typical behaviour from micro$oft.
Nobody should claim to be surprised.
*** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
"...they are forbidden to ship java, they lost the case against sun."
IIRC they were forbidden to advertise their products as being Java compliant, since they were not, but they were permitted to ship Java until the original contract expired.
They are perfectly free to try to negotiate a new deal with Sun to ship Java if they want to.
*** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
"But saying they're doing it for security reasons is just a joke."
Read bugtraq and notice the number of security alerts for microsoft (especially outlook and IIS) and compare that to the number of alerts for the other OS vendors sometime.
The only security micro$soft is interested in is their own. The security of their users does not enter into the equation.
*** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
"Do you really think MS would let people easily install java???"
Why do you need Java? With Active-X you get so much more! Active-X does not have one of those viral licenses that destroy intellectual propoerty.
It can be used however to exploit number of security holes that permit viruses to propagate and destroy your data. Let's see Java do that!
The problem is not so much in installing Java, but in dis-abling and/or removing Active-X.
*** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
Didn't Microsoft lose a court decision to Sun saying they were *required* to no longer claim to be Java compliant since Microsoft was not adhering to the standard?
In which case, they must do this and then try to make their own stuff the new defacto standard.
Unfortunately, I can't find anything to support this on-line.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
I beg to differ - why is JSP a thing of the past? Also, you underestimate the development of Mozilla / Netscape 6. It's out, it's quite usable already, and in about half a year, it's going to be as stable and bug-free as IE. Which is no small accomplishment, given that Microsoft didn't have to redesign and rewrite the whole browser between versions 4 and 5.
No it's not. By not touching Java with their browser, they have the security of not getting sued by Sun again. :)
How many java e-mail viruses have we heard about? Surely this article is a satire. I honestly can't believe this crap. And it really disturbs me to think that most users *will* believe it.
GreyPoopon
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GreyPoopon
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Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?
Maybe aol could start shipping java on all those free cds that they give out.... think of aol as our msaveour :)
But in all seriousness, I don't think the 'average user' would download java because of some MS 'warning message' on how (possibly) harmful java is to your computer (probably omitting the word possibly). Do you really think MS would let people easily install java????!
===> An eye for an eye makes everyone blind - MG
Inter-/intranet solutions in Lotus Domino/Notes (can, and often do) make heavy use of Java, IMHO in a very elegant way - views, outlines, actions bars, and especially rich-text editing (like an RTF editor, in a Java applet, just there to use). I shudder to think of the investment which will be necessary to change all the intranet applications for my clients to use non-Java solutions. ... sometimes it's nice developing in a very rich RAD environment - some annoyances are just SEPs.
But then, I'm sure people are sprinting around at Iris/IBM to find a way
(yes, I love TLAs)
yes, we have no bananas
Actually, this isn't strictly true. You can do things outside the sandbox (such as connecting to a different server) if you have a signed applet, and the user accepts it.
But you're right, the security argument is a joke.
q
The next logical step would be to disable the windows scripting component in windows. (actually before Java would be more obvious)
Without this step, "any Web page that contains Java applications will not run -- it will be a dead page," said Jan Vitek, a professor of computer science at Purdue University, West Lafayette, Ind. "This favors Microsoft's new technologies, and will inconvenience consumers," he said.
Almost sounds like FUD against Microsoft for a change! Browsers will still include JVM's, folks.
For Web-based businesses, Vitek added, "if you want your Web page accessible to the largest number of people, you may want to drop Java" and switch to Microsoft's competing set of products, which is under development and is known as .Net.
Oh, I see. He's actually supporting Microsoft. Remember, folks, if it's FUD, it comes from Redmond.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
If I had a webmaster writing any form of asp pages, I'd instantly fire him/her. If I had web developers targeting a specific browser, I'd fire them in a heartbeat. I'd probably fire you if given half a chance.
-- Another senseless waste of fine bytes.
The courts ruled that Microsoft had a monopoly in Java by making their JVM incompatible with Sun's. Since more people use MS than Sun, most people wrote for MS incompatible JVM, taking away most of the market share of Sun and other companies in the same market. By leaving their JVM out of the market, it will give secondary companies more chance to develop the market and make Microsoft look less Monopolistic. Remember, it's not always what you do do, but what you don't do that shapes your future image.
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Just because a bunch of people believe or do something stupid, doesn't make it any less stupid.
I beg to differ. Think how many saps CometCursor has bagged by having their software "automatically install"? I know more than a few people, some of my family members included, that don't bother to read the privacy notice when IE flashes it up on the screen (the one that designates the provider of the content).
Explain to me again why we're worried? Windows XP also doesn't have support for RealVideo (Windows never has) so that involved me downloading a 5 minute download from Real. The Java download was completely and utterly automatic (similar to downloading Shockwave for Windows).
This is another fine example of people making mountains out of Microsoft molehills.
I think this might bee that MS is a bit pissed on Sun for the law suit the got smacked on them for unautorised modefying of Java.
Revenge thy name is $Bill.
@
Does m$ really think that ActiveX will replace java? Having taken one semester of java programming at the university level, I realize that java has much more potential in the ways of security. It has less ability to manipulate local files, and more ability to be a self-contained app. ActiveX, on the other hand, was practically built to utilize m$ propreitary code, as well as interact with the local HDD. Can you say "Welcome Trojans!"?
Remember, it's not paranoia if they're really after you.
IWARS.
People, in general, disappoint me. Politicians even more so.
Bill says, "If we can't make an incompatible version that ensures Java won't compete with Windows, then we won't provide Java at all, and avoid competition that way. So there - Pphpffftttt!" Steve
--- What?
...they are forbidden to ship java, they lost the case against sun.
and again microsoft is doing everything to get control over the market. they cannot add own stuff to java so they will just excluded. same thing over and over again
Users are complacent and completely content on being provided with a box that functions with little concern of what happens behind the scenes. They dont want to touch the box (sometimes literally) for fear of "breaking" the computer. They do not want to learn about computers or how to fix them. I want to use the analogy of automobiles. How many of us actually know how to fix our car when it breaks. Not many. This is why mechanics get paid the big bucks. This is why the techs at CompUSA can over charge the ignorant. Except in the automobile there is actually competition between firms, which provides consumers with a variety of choices. This is just horrible news. People lack contempt for MS and this will hurt technology. MS happily pigeon-holed its users into apathetic recipients of Microsoft's efforts to control all of technology. You may think that i am being melodramatic, but i am sincerely concerned over the removal of the JVM from Windows XP.
Good idea, MicroSquish. I'm sure that most companies will love the fact their web pages are viewable by even *less* people.
Although, given how many pages are 99.9% Flash or IE-only HTML or something else hard to view on Unix and/or Netscape, maybe I'm giving businesses far too much credit here...
No. They're watching watches, not witches. So watch it.