Slashdot Mirror
Challenging The OEMs on Java
There's a great Dan Gillmor article, from his blog [?] regarding the challenge issued by Tim O'Reilly and Clay Shirky to the computer OEMs, asking them to include the latest Java JRE. As Microsoft has said they won't be including Java in WinXP, but are cool with "letting" OEMs put in other programs, let's see the manufacturers strike a blow for competition, and compatibility, and including a non-"extended and embraced" JRE.
Nope, no one. Not for JBuilder, or TogetherJ, or WebLogic Console. Not at all. Ever. Or Forte. In fact, I don't think anyone has ever downloaded the Swing classes.
That is in fact happening. I can tell you firsthand that at one of the top companies working on client-side Java, senior management just sent out an e-mail saying that if Java doesn't come bundled with new browsers we will start porting to C#.
I agree with Bjarne... Java IS a platform. And a good one for deploying web applications that generate dynamic content from server processing. But NOBODY uses Java client applications, or Java applets.
That's one thing I don't understand about the American psyche - surely, in a court case, an out-of-court settlement is a tacit admission of guilt? The one I _really_ don't get is when they settle to avoid admitting guilt in a court of law. Surely they've just effectively admitted guilt anyway? And yet the general public in america then seems to think treat them as innocent, when they're patently not, while in Europe we throw up our hands at the insanity of Americans....
Not considering settlement-admitting-guilt in later cases seems to me to be a bit like the patent office not considering prior art that wasn't in their own database...
Since 90+% of the "end user" machines out there run Windows, just use the java plug-in. It is a ONE TIME 5MB download. This download will get you a 1.3 JVM that works great. Sun also includes the plug-in for Linux and Solaris. I am not sure what the status is for the Macintosh, but either way that would give you 95% of all the Internet connected client machines in the world. If they do include one for the Macintosh, or one is allready bundled with OSX, then that would give you around 99% of the worlds Internet connected computers.
The download and install are a joke in Internet Explorer, and it provides Applet cacheing! So after your first run, no more slow downloads.
It also makes it easy to update your code across all machines.
However, if you are looking to run full blown applications (no more sandbox)then look at Java Web Start. I have only worked with it for a little bit, but it seems cool.
Having said all this, I would still love for the OEM's to preload the Java runtime 1.3. If the 5 major OEM's did this then it would save the users the 5MB download. With hard drives over 20GB on new systems, who cares about 10MB more storage.
What percentage of users will ever do anything with it? Who knows.
Steve Michael
steve.michael@performancestrategies.com
Network Architect
Performance Strategies Inc
Indianapolis Indiana
"Microsoft is trying to reduce diversity in computing. Java is one way to maintain the little that's left, and maybe grow it."
HA!
Lets call apples, apples people.
Java is really about having this layer over everything. SUN has this view of Java being the everything language of the internet. Java being the language all applications are written in... the 'format' in which all data is transferred (as a java object), the "operating system" in which everything runs (the JRE), the authentication system everything uses.
Java is about destroying diversity wherever it finds it... in the name of creating a "standard".
This, folks, is exactly what Micro$oft is about too... if you are talking about Sun vs. MS... the real question that should be asked is Which STANDARD do to like better?
It is not about freedom vs. oppression.
It is not about having choices.
What its about is two big mega-coprporations duking it out over whose vision will create the new standard in programming.
+5 funny? reallly?
The only thing funny about this is how retarded it is. That's just one dir up from the one Hemos posted which was the JRE. This link is to the SDK.
Dan appears to be under the delusion that a 'free to distribute' license actually holds any water when you're a bigger company.
I happen to work for one of said OEM's, and was part of the discussions to do this very thing. Suffice it to say, it's never as simple as 'just include it in the image, it's free dummy - look at the license' - not when we've both got lawyers and marketing and executives, etc. Not only that, Sun directly competes with the OEM's in a good number of cases (especially on the server, appliance server and storage side) - it's akin to Gateway asking Dell to put a piece of (albeit industry-standard) software on their systems with their name all over it. That just doesn't happen.
Obviously we decided not to include the JRE. FYI, Microsoft played no role in the decision that was made.
Mind you, I'd like to see OEMs put a demo version of Opera , or a link to O's homepage, with the looser terms, on the desktop. Offer the consumer the choice. Of course, now that I think about it, most OEM's have everything default to 640x480; I dread to imagine all the icons that might be on the screen at once!!
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
The JRE is an intelligent DLL under Windows in that it is not loaded until it's needed, unlike the underlying IE DLLs which are loaded at the start and take up memory even if not used. So it's not going to slow the user or comsume memory until it's needed.
The critical thing that needs to be done by Sun with regards to Java support is to have something like Windows Update or the Quicktime Updater: the ability to run one program that will grab the newest and latest files and install them, using a diff-like method instead of downloading *everything* again. If you tell a user that they can upgrade for a quick 500k download and to just press 'here', as opposed to telling them to download the newest JRE by going to some site, and downloading ANOTHER 8meg file, you'll have more people that stay current.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
It depends on how Microsoft chooses to implement this choice. From the way they have been promoting the 'download any JVM you want' option, you'd think that they were going to make IE 6 use the OJVM standard for embedding third party JVM's in their web browser, as is supported on the Macintosh using Apple's Macintosh Runtime for Java standard.
I really doubt that this is the case, which means people wanting to use Sun's JVM will have to code their HTML to use the (much more complex) ActiveX/Netscape Plugin based Java Plug-in, rather than the old fashioned <APPLET> tag.
Really, though, for distribution of Java applications to the user's desktop, the best thing going right now is Sun's Java Web Start, which makes it super, super easy and efficient to distribute Java applets and applications to Windows desktops.
I just put support for Java Web Start into Ganymede, and our users are loving it. No more having to start up a full web browser to get the Ganymede client going, no more having the Ganymede client killed off if they forget and quit their browser while the client is running.
Java Web Start is some wonderful stuff for free standing Java applications. If every IBM, Gateway, and Dell PC out there came with it I would be in seventh heaven. Unfortunately, Sun happens to be a hardware competitor to all of those companies, so it's not clear how much they would want to help Sun out with this.
- jon
- jon
Ganymede, a GPL'ed metadirectory for UNIX
Not everything is a freedom issue. This is just a request.
"Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." --Elbert Hubbard (1856-1915)
I don't think this is true. In my experience it takes far more code to interface to an existing high-level interface than to reimplement it. My best example is X window managers, I have written both them and toolkits that talk to them. I would say 50% of the window manager is interfacing code to the applications, and the code the toolkit uses to talk to the window manager is 1.6 times larger than the code in the window manager to draw and drag windows. Thus if the window manager were eliminated we would all programs would have a piece replaced with a piece that is 1/1.6 in size, and ALL of the window manager is removed. This would result in significant savings overall.
Another way to look at it is to imagine the widgets in your JavaOS. Do you really think that at the widget point (like the interface to a text input field) Java would abrubtly stop being used, and the rest coded in assembler or C? Or, more likely, wouldn't the widget itself be in Java and talking to a lower-level interface that draw letters and rectangles. And then wouldn't that lower interface be well-documented and the "widget" just run in user space?
Of course it would work like this, because it would be about a million times easier to design such a system. The same thing is true when writing a toolkit to run on a system you don't control.
The problem with Java is not that it is a bad idea to program to a low level, but that the implementation itself is badly done and bloated. Swing could learn a lot from gtk or even (god forbid) mfc.
Yes, I was trolling. My point is that there's shedloads of stuff which 'costs nothing' to install, and some of it is actually pretty good. There's no reason why Java should get special treatment. OTOH, ship a half-decent perl5 environment and people could really get some useful work done :-).
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
We should also demand that manufacturers ship a copy of Cygwin with each Windows PC. It costs them nothing but makes it much easier to download and run lots of free software ported to Windows.
Heck, while you're at it, why not 'demand' that they include a Linux partition? Hard disk space is cheap these days.
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
for starters you didn't even link to the current level... that's 1.3, not 1.2 as you're linking.
But far more importantly you only linked to one option, Sun... as if they were the only game in town, or even the best game in town. Try http://ibm.com/java if you want a serious JVM.
A lot of home users these days buy computer mags, just to try and learn a little more about them.. :)
This is the original distribution method for both IE and Netscape.. They appeared on the cover disks of magazines.. With big titles proclaiming the latest releases
A lot of people still use dialups, and will be more than a little miffed that they're supposed to download such huge bits simply to view java..
However, putting an installer on a CD would be a bit of a sales booster for people not wanting to spend hours downloading over a 14.4 modem.
And it would also be able to proclaim all these new releases of Java, nudging people to stay current.
Malk
Sun's JVM does beat IBM's on Win32
-----
Slashdot routinely promotes (or promoted) DVDs, movies, music CDs, and other products from the two industries which have attacked the Free Software movement more aggressively and more effectively than Microsoft ever has: the Recording Industry Association of Amaerica (RIAA) and the Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA).
While I boycott both of those industries, and have for over a year and a half now, it is because I personally have chosen to give up immediate consumer gratification in order to remain at least somewhat true to my conscience.
Slashdot, on the other hand, bemoans the attacks on one hand and actively markets their products on the other, indirectly putting even more money into the pockets of those who are financing litigious thuggary against free software volunteers. Despicable, but they have presumably decided that playing both sides against the middle enhances their bottom line in some fashion, perhaps through increased readership, add revinue, or some other less obvious mechanism. Or perhaps the editors are simply as unable to go without their instant consumer gratification as most of America is and thus are attending the opening night of movies like Final Fantasy the movie because they cannot be bothered to wait (when nearly every penny opening night goes to the hollywood studios rather than the local theatre, as opposed to seeing the movie 4 weeks later when nearly every penny goes to the local theatre instead) because they simply cannot live a day without their bread and circuses, never mind social, political, or economic consiquences.
Sites like slashdot and kuro5hin (which has seriously declined over the last few weeks, sufficiently so that I removed links to it on my own website) are not where we should be looking for "leadership" or even significant support. If any of us are really serious about reclaiming our rights we need to organize our own political action groups, and/or support existing ones such as the FSF and the EFF. K5, slashdot, and their ilk have shown themselves to be fair weather activists at best, ready to run back to the couch and submit to the mindless drone of the television and whatever the media moguls are feeding us at the first hint of seeing something new or shiny.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
No Sun's JDK isn't installed by default but it is included in the CONTRIB directory (on the extras CD). Saved me from yet another huge download.
signal, noise, to me it's all the same.
Actually no, it wasn't complete. It didn't include JNI, for example, instead using MS's own JDirect. That among other reasons was why Sun sued MS. And won, in case you've forgotten than. It was a fast interpreter, though; MS used a different GC system to that of Sun derived VM's of the time, and it did pay off in terms of speed.
But of course Sun wanted to keep everyone playing in their little sandboxes and sued MS to take those things out. So now Java has been taken out.
No, MS were not allowed to create anything beyond JDK 1.1.4 level (as I recall) by virtue of the court judgement. Sun generally don't object to extensions to the JDK, as long as the whole JDK is included. For example Apple's JDK for OS X has extra libraries for native access to Cocoa, but it still fully supports JFC/Swing.
Personally I'd like to see OEM's include Netscape 6.x the latest and/or mozilla. As well as an option to install Linux. Or maybe offer dual boot systems off the get go and see how many people buy a dual boot. Or offer a trial vmware with other OSes installed. Or even includes some of the software for other apps.
I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
Flame away, I have a hose!
Only 'flamers' flame!
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
I think the difference is that Java is going to be much more useful to the average OEM Windows customer than Perl or Python. There are at least Java games (Atomica, anyone?) and some apps that they might want to use, but there's not a whole lot written for Win32+Perl/Python that the average user is going to want. On a Linux box, Perl and Python are definitely more important than Java, of course.
I don't think there's any fear of OEM Windows customers not getting the most recent VB runtime :)
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
New machines will comes with XP, and only XP. Scenario: one of your customers, who is networked, buys a new computer, for whatever reason. (e.g. added an employee or old computer died). Now your customer has a computer running XP.
XP will come with latest MS applications. They give spreadsheet (created with Excel XP or whatever it'll be called) to Win98 Office 2000 user or Win95 Office 97 user, etc. Excel locks up the machine when it tries to load the latest document, or if they're lucky, display error message. They find out that the only fix is to "upgrade" their Win9x boxes to XP. (For some reason, it never occurs to them to "downgrade" the new machine. Besides, where are they going to get another Win9x license? They won't be for sale anymore.)
In less than a year, the customer's site is completely XP.
I have seen this happen at multiple customer sites, and twice (will probably be 3 times by end of year) at our largest customer's site. It's so sad to see people trash a perfectly good network. :( And the users complain, but they're just pawns...
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Particularly as version 1.4 is currently in beta, available for download from http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4/
:)
Release is scheduled for fourth quarter of 2001, ie RSN now
Cheers,
Tim
It's official. Most of you are morons.
One way to get massive client-side deployment of the JRE would be for Sun, or a third party, to release a killer game that uses Java3D...
:-)
This would also be cool for Linux people, since the game would run unchanged on linux
Choice of masters is not freedom.
Yeah, that'll work... I'm sorry, but Slashdot's record on activisim is pretty damn weak. For instance, Slashdot tried to institute a boycott against the MPAA and all of it's products. Yet, every week we have JonKatz acting as a paid wind-bag and reviewing every piece of tripe that is coming out of Hollywood.
I wouldn't expect Slashdot to support a boycott of anything.
-m
There is a difference between "used by the general computing public" and "no one" (as suggested by the original poster).
Java or Visual Basic?
I'll take Java, particularly when I can use IBM's.
Microsoft's version of Java is left incomplete, slow, and broken.
Users blame Java and Sun for how much Microsofts Java sucks.
Actually, most people blamed Netscape for how much their version of Java sucked - which is what turned people off from it in the first place.
And Microsoft's implementation was the fastest of the bunch - which is why Sun ended up cheating on the CaffeineMark benchmarks.
Simon
Coming soon - pyrogyra
This is new in JRE 1.4 that uses a XML file to define packages that a full up application might need. As part of this it can automatically pull the latest required JDK if it is required.
A really good way to deploy java to the client side.
"Don't want to pay for MS Office? Here's Star instead."
to which MS will say "The license for Windows will now cost you *MORE* than what you were paying for Windows and Office combined" - or words to that effect.
MrCreosote Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump! "You're right! There isn't enough room to swing a cat in here!"
Well, we use Jikes to compile the program, so it really is only the JRE that we need.
It's subpara (i) that you quoted that causes us grief (and is in a different form in the 1.1 license)
(i) you distribute the Software complete and unmodified and only bundled as part of, and for the sole purpose of running, your Programs
We're not redistributing JRE to run our program, we're redistributing it to run the user's programs, ergo we're out of luck.
If you can come up with a different intrepretation, please email me at west@hsa.on.ca. (It's not like anybody at Sun is ever going to notice or care whether JRE ships with our product or not, but it's my responsibility to make certain we are completely compliant with any applicable licenses).
People might like to look at the JRE license agreement before they talk about free redistribution. The agreement *clearly* states that it's *only* allowed to be redistributed for the *sole* purpose of running the *accompanying* Java program. (JRE 1.2 and above)
:-(.
In other words, you can't give JRE to somebody else to allow them to run their program.
How do I know this? I've been trying to get permission from somebody at Sun to redistribute the JRE with our educational Java IDE for months. So far, no go. Even worse, you can't even purchase a license to redistribute it because it's "freely redistributable" and there is no provision at Sun for licensing it
My sales guy at Sun has tried heroically, but the lawyers have the final say.
Now, we're just small (well, miniscule) fry compared to the manufacturers, but it certainly means prolonged negotiation with Sun before obtaining permission to put it on their machines.
Bloated useless applets - I agree. Off the top of my head however, I can come up with several
good uses for applets:
Invisible applet web bugs with the ability to open sockets to the server from which they came.
This still has lots of potential.
Intranet "fat" clients. Give you a manner to distribute the client from a single source, no
need to run all over and update software on the client machines.
Units in a distributed system. No fancy GUI, just the real deal. This gives ease of access, people
can join eg. distributed.net with literally only a click in their browser - no installation needed.
Having said this, I also agree that applets are not the killer application they were made to be
6 years ago. I believe Flash makes a better frontend for GUIs, I believe RealPlayer is a better
streaming media client. Why should a JRE be treated differently from another pluggable
browser element? People will need to get as used to upgrade their JRE as they are to upgrading
their Flash/RealPlayer/Whatever.
Unable to read configuration file '/bigassraid/htdig//conf/14229.conf'
Geocrawler error message.
Because this is slashdot. Any post praising Microsoft or bashing linux gets moderated to high heaven.
I remember when slashdot was actually for open source now it's for microsoft.
War is necrophilia.
Why is this idiot liear moderated up.
/.ers support - you only have to install what _you_ want, not what the OS vendor wants - but everyone here is complaining about it."
/., such as it is, goes out the window when a chance to bash Microsoft appears..."
"First, why all this pleading that Java should be considered a vital part of the OS?"
LIE. Nobody said anything like this. Nobody said it should be part of the OS they said it should be pre-installed by the OEM. Go learn english and re-read the posts.
"Yet here is Microsoft removing the JRE from the OS ('unbundling', if you will), leaving you free to install any version from any vendor, and everyone is complaining about it"
LIE. Nobody is complaining about anything they are urging the OEMs to pre-install the JRE. Not only are you a liar but you seem to be profoundly confused about the difference between bundling a ham sandwith with your OS and calling it innovation and the PC manufacturers pre-installing applications. A stupid liar.
"Finally, isn't this how Microsoft's much-hyped new OEM licensing should work?"
Here you are just plain stupid. Well duh you brickhead of course this is the way the OEMs shoudl work. All bundling should be done at the OEM level and the OEMs should be free to bundle and UNBUNDLE any thing they want. People are asking the OEMs to bundle their favorite thingie why do you have a problem with that?
"All in all, this is something that's more in line with the philosophy that
Whoo hoo here you are just babling incorently. See if you can understand this simple concept really I'll try and use small words. We want the OEMs to listen to us because WE ARE THEIR CUSTOMERS. Did you get that? WE ARE BUYING THE PC NOT MICROSOFT. Why should the OEM listen the OS manufacturer when they should be listening to their customers.
"It seems to me that the consistency of arguments on
Well this is the biggest lie of all. Your post got moderated up because it bashed slashdot and defends MS. There are numerous other examples of that on this topic alone. The days of slashdot being an open source community are long gone. Now it's full of astro-turfers and MS shills like yourself.
Of course I will be moderated down for actually pointing out that you are liar and critisizing Microsoft.
War is necrophilia.
Many non-techs couldn't tell you what JRE stands for, much less why they need it while browsing the web.
I think any computer distributor who really had their customers' interests in mind would distribute a JRE, given the volume of web pages their customers will encounter that needs one.
----------------------------------
"We're sorry, but the website you're trying to reach has been disconnected."
I though Windows 95 didn't have a hope in hell of getting anywhere. Its architecture was crap, it was unstable, it sucked resources up like a hoover in overdrive... It looked OK, but I just couldn't see why a user would move up to Windows 95.
I reasoned that for the vast majority of users, there would be no benefit to moving. Most of them write short documents or use small spreadsheets. How many people were ACTUALLY having problems with resources under Wndows 3.x? And those few that did have problems could always run under WinNT instead...
I reckoned without two things:
- Users are stupid
- Microsoft has great marketing
I saw people go into PC World at midnight on the day of release, and buy an "upgrade bundle" of Windows 95 and 8Mb or 16Mb of additional RAM. And in those days, RAM wasn't cheap.People were spending up to 300 pounds just to run Windows 95.
I had this contant vision of users fititng their RAM, doing the upgrade, finishng it and then lookign at the screen. They click on the Start button. They "oooh!" and "aaah!" at it for a while. And then they start Word, and it runs no faster. Maybe even slower. But by this time, they're not going to admit they've wasted money. They're happy with it. Even if they did gain nothing except a documents menu and an emptier bank balance. (And the documents menu is duplicated with the MRU list on the Word file menu anyway, but never mind that.)
The average user gained nothin initially. And by the time Windows 95 was a viable platform, they still gained little. To really gain, they had to buy a new machine, with hardware designed for 95 and powerful enough to run software designed for 95.
Windows XP is the same. Most machines out there are under-specced for it. (It requires 128Mb of RAM to work well, IMHO.) The only difference is that, being based on Windows 2000, Windows XP should be stable. But the home edition lacks the security features. The new interface will make people "oooh!" and "aaah!" a bit, and then they'll rationalise their investment by appreciating the new colour scheme. (Blue! How, um, blue! Very. Blue.)
Microsoft is going to throw money at marketing this thing. People will by it. Nothing can stop that, because the only way is to educate people not to do it. But none of the media will do that - to tell people they won't need Windows XP would be a wonderful way to never see a pre-release or beta ever again, for any computer magazine. Or website. Or TV program. Microsoft will pull all the stops.
I never believed it could be done the first time.
I admit I was wrong, and I'm humbled by the experience. I've learnt my lesson - Never Underestimate Microsoft.
If a large computer manufacturer was willing to install opera, I think they'd be willing to sell licenses in bulk for a buck or two. That could translate out to a revenue boost of a million or two bucks that they'd normally not get. How many people actually download and pay for Opera anyway?
Several points here... First, why all this pleading that Java should be considered a vital part of the OS? Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the question, and even given the prevalence of Java on the Internet, this does rather come across as a bunch of Java guys whining about why their favourite language is really important and everyone should have it whether they want it or not. Why not also plead for the installation of Perl, Python etc. on all new PCs? It would make just as much sense...
/.ers habitually slam Microsoft for including components in the OS that aren't a core function, and yet aren't optional (ie IE). Yet here is Microsoft removing the JRE from the OS ('unbundling', if you will), leaving you free to install any version from any vendor, and everyone is complaining about it. You can't have it both ways, guys...
/.ers support - you only have to install what _you_ want, not what the OS vendor wants - but everyone here is complaining about it. It seems to me that the consistency of arguments on /., such as it is, goes out the window when a chance to bash Microsoft appears...
Second,
Finally, isn't this how Microsoft's much-hyped new OEM licensing should work? While I admit it's a bit of a sop to the antitrust lobby rather than a serious concession, surely removing Java is completely in line with this? By removing Java, OEMs who believe there is a market for a PC with Windows 2000/XP and Java are free to include the JRE.
All in all, this is something that's more in line with the philosophy that
Closer, danov, but that's not a JRE. This is the JRE link
If I were Microsoft I'd give financial incentives to the PC vendors to not include Java. They've used Windows pricing as a lever in many cases before (look at what they did to IBM) and there's nothing stopping them from doing it again.
While they are restricted against denying the manufacters the right to change the desktop, they aren't restricted in how they can price things, nor what they can do with marketing money. And money is a huge bargaining chip.
As a result I would be surprised if any of the large PC manufacturers ended up bundling the JRE.
I also don't think it much matters, Java is terrible in the browser (this from someone who has been writing Java almost exclusively since 1995). If I'm writing applications rather than applets I'll just ship the JRE with the installer.
jim frost
jim frost
jimf@frostbytes.com
Who's pleading? All the posts I saw from Java developers were either indifferent or actually approved the removal of the lame 5-year old VM - less confusion this way. (I, being a Java developer, also think it's a good thing.)
They (Microsoft) are aggravating their loyal developer base as well. I attended last year's (7/2000) Microsoft PDC (Professional Developer's Conference) where the .NET "initiative" was rolled-out. It soon became obvious that Java was a non-starter in the .NET vision of the future. "What about Java?" questions were pretty much ignored by the Microsoft presenters, and the tone of the questions got more and more heated as the conference progressed. One person asked during a C# (C-sharp) presentation, "Isn't this Microsoft Java?", which obviously angered the presenter.
Remember, most of these folks are die-hard Microsoft developers, who have been using MS J++ to develop enterprise applications (and yes, applets). I think Microsoft hopes that in a couple of years, everybody will be using C# and this whole Java thing will have been a bad dream. The most recent move of not including the JRE is no surprise, considering this strategy. Next will be not making it available from Microsoft at all.
Of course, Sun could have won the day by announcing during the conference that they were releasing Java to a standards committee, but that was just wishful thinking. I imagine that Cold Fusion will be the next target, XP somehow causing CF pages to be mysteriously broken or a "security risk" (hint: Use ASP+ instead).
I'm not a big Microsoft "conspirist". Frankly, a conspiracy implies some sort of subterfuge or cleverness in my opinion. Microsoft is far too heavy-handed to rate that title. They're just bullies, nothing more.
Smilodon
V V
Come on
Bitter and proud of it.
you mean this one? :)
Just a couple of quick points to consider. Yes, they could have attempted to achieve a high degree of Windows integration, but:
1. They certainly would have risked the moving target API that Microsoft has so successfully employed in the past, where every service pack breaks their code.
2. None of those changes would have been cross-platform. Netscape seemed fairly committed to delivering a single development platform that worked the same whether on Windows, Mac, Linux, Solaris, etc.
---------------------------------------------
SERENITY NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As has been pointed out before, Opera and Netscape and other browsers have been crying in their milk for years about the level of IE integration, when they could have been doing something about it.
Internet Explorer is two parts: a bundle of COM objects that adhere to a public and fixed com interface, and a bundle of glue that uses those COM objects together to make it a single application.
Netscape could have implemented these same COM interfaces, and have gotten at least half of the integration that IE did. By depending on the APIs, Microsoft would have likely cleaned it up to allow more seamless replacement, as they have cleaned up DirectX about eight times.
But no, Netscape sued Microsoft (oh, wait, Netscape asked the Feds to sue Microsoft), so of course the IE COM interfaces are still a little rough and incomplete.
Remember when Lotus bitched and moaned about how it was impossible to write a "real" program on Windows, because their 1-2-3W version 1.0 sucked bigtime? Remember how Philippe Kahn, hardly the friend of Redmond, told him to shut up because he didn't know what he was talking about?
Obligatory Slashdot Disclaimer: yes, Microsoft is vicious, ruthless, and large. It is exactly for these reasons that they often lose in court, and in many cases, they deserve to lose. I don't work for them, nor do I care what OS is monopolistic in ten years.
Don't win by litigation, win by quality products. Netscape, Adobe, Sun, they may win little battles with the help of a judge. You're not going to win a court war against a multi-billion-per-quarter revenue machine. You're going to win a war by making Microsoft irrelevant, one market at a time. But Microsoft is more vulnerable if you just write better code and use every interface they expose to integrate and replace their features.
[
let's see the manufacturers strike a blow for competition, and compatibility
Yes competition is good.
...and including a non-"extended and embraced" JRE.
Yes. God forbid there be any compeitition and innovation in the Java marker.
In my experience, both can be as portable as Java. If they install the activestate versions, it makes both languages available for web programming, so you could use Javascript, VBScript, Python or Perl for writing web based applications.
That way we get real competition, not just a p1ss1ng match between two monopolists (or one monopolist and one that is willing to do anything to be the next one.)
Peace, or Not?
I really have to agree with one of the first sentences of this article:
"Microsoft is trying to reduce diversity in computing. Java is one way to maintain the little that's left, and maybe grow it."
I know it's good business for MS to lock the users into whatever MS wants them to run, and I'm sure any company would do this, given a chance.
I really REALLY hope that both US and EU sides with the little guy (and I mean users, not SUN) to make sure we have a choice in the future too.
And no, there are no real alternatives to Windows on the desktop, not yet, not for the average user.
(No, I'm not trolling, I'm just observing people around me)
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. -- Harlan Ellison
I installed ConsoleOne the other day, and the damn thing doesn't work in RH7.1. Novell has a TID with the specific error, but their solution is to REINSTALL GLIBC. Glibc? For a Java Error? What the hell is that? In any case, I dumped IBM's JRE, and installed 1.3 from blackdown.org, and now ConsoleOne works like a charm.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
FWIW, my roomate bought a comp from eMachines about 6 months ago. Imagine my surprise when I saw him using StarOffice on it because it came bundled. He never complained about it at all (aside from speed, which is more a severe lack of RAM problem than anything) because it is a perfectly viable alternative to MS Office. I hope it does start to be a bundled option for a lot of OEMs. "Don't want to pay for MS Office? Here's Star instead." It's certainly ready for it.
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
I used Java Web Start on a recent project and our end-users loved it!
t ec ture.html
. ht ml
Java Web Start takes care not only of transparent downloading and installing of the Java client application, but can also update the cache with a new version of the client, as soon as it is posted on the Web Server.
No more making sure that 1000 users installed their new version of software correctly (or at all!)
Java Web Start comes with the latest JRE.
http://javasoft.com/products/javawebstart/archi
http://javasoft.com/products/javawebstart/index
-- Jacek
Why doesn't some company put together a windows distribution with added goodies like a JVM.
OEMs should dump MS altogether. A preconfigured Red Hat box is no more difficult to operate than a preconfigured MS box. Bundled up with something like Star Office, even the pointiest haired boss would appreciate it. With 5% of all desktops, linux is as mainstream as Apple. A few of these boxes on display at CompUSA and on sale at Dell would end all of this Monopoly liscence and compatibility BS forever.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
There, see, you said it not me.
Java was not part of MS OS like IE was because you could remove java and still work your computer. Remember the comingiling article you saw on Slashdot today? Ever tried to run an MS poluted PC without Exploder? It works just a little worse than one with Exploder.
Don't worry too much, there is no new microsoft. No one who uses MS or writes code for MS is free.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Sun creates a cross platform language called Java.
Microsoft does not like cross platform becouse it != WIndows!
Microsoft "supports" Java becouse people want it and it's a buzz term that gets press.
Microsoft's version of Java is left incomplete, slow, and broken.
Users blame Java and Sun for how much Microsofts Java sucks.
Microsoft removes it's broken software from Windows siting "Security Concerns".
Users don't care becuse "Java sucks anyway"
Microsoft crushes a another competitor.
Yeah. Boy, I'm sure glad MS did the "right thing" because no one enjoys "webpages with Java"
Why is it so hot? Where am I going? What am I doing in this handbasket?
Link in the article points to JRE 1.2 while
latest is 1.3.
Java Web Start
Come to think of it, what are the details of the greater flexibility for OEMs? Is that real, or will MS play games as with per-processor licensing? "Oh, you want to add Java? OK, that will be an extra $50e6 for Windows...."
Or am I thinking of the old 'Activator'?
Corollary to Moore's Law: The IQ of new computer owners is declining.
They weren't making money with the regular JRE on PCs before, they won't risk Java to start now.
They probably will continue to charge for the server-optimized HotSpot, but that's a different ball of wax.
The JRE is about as stone simple as you can get in terms of installation[1]. They don't need to understand jack squat about how the JVM works as long as the person making the disk image can click through a few dialog boxes to install it. Analogy: do you understand how a glow plug works? Can you drive a car with a diesel engine?
Besides, don't you think Sun or IBM would jump all over themselves providing technical info to OEMs willing to try this with their JREs?
Regarding Microsoft support of OEM installations (either of MS products or otherwise): hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahaha.
thanks, I haven't laughed that way in a long time.
[1]Well, unless you're using Mozilla. But I don't see OEMs shipping a beta product as the main browser anytime soon.
--
News for geeks in Austin: www.geekaustin.org
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
What's being asked is that the computer makers thoroughly test and understand the workings of the JRE being packaged. Then what? Incure the cost for this themselves? It was easy when Microsoft included the software and something broke -- microsoft tech support is more than willing to assist you with your problems.
kill_9_1
Also take the IE's HTML extensions out. Take ActiveX out. Take smart tags out. Take autocomplete out...........
Donate free food to the hungry at The Hunger site.
Brett Glass asks: "Why not ask manufacturers to bundle Opera? It comes with the latest JRE."
Like it or not, Opera really isn't a maintstream browser. If the PC is shipped with anything other than Explorer, the PC maker is going to have to deal with the expense of a lot more tech. support calls from people asking what happened to Explorer.
Java support, on the other hand, just makes thing work that wouldn't have, and doesn't change the rest (except for taking up 0.05% of the hard drive space). If somebody hits a web site that tells them they need Java, and they have to download it over a dial-up, they're going to be mad at the PC maker for giving them an incomplete system. Since it's free, on top of all that, there's really no reason for any PC maker not to include a JRE.
I think Microsoft has just given themselves a black eye for no good reason here. They get another round of bad PR, but Java support will still be put on the PC's by Dell, GateWay, Micron, IBM, etc., plus AOL.
There is A LOT more to Java than just web page applets. The whole spirit of Java is to provide compatibility. Java is also a quite capable programming language in which to build any kind of application. I have been using Java for 1 and 1/2 years in college and have thouroughly enjoyed it. I hope the OEM's decide to put Java in their machines because it would be a pity to see Java applications go down the drain on Win32. Especially when I've spent all this time learning it :).
The Tick : Spooooooooooooooooooooon!.
The Tick : Spooooooooooooooooooooon!.
Neo : There is no spoon.
And, you know, the more people think Java is necessary, the happier I become that Debian maintainers do not bend and pollute their magnificent distribution with non-free packages.
How about boycotting any OEM that _does_ include Java? :-)
If its good anouth most people would even have to get MS Office and could put a big dent in MS sales.
Just saying it like it are.
Cheers... .*shrc is
--
$HOME is where the
$HOME is where the
-- silver_p
I don't mean to rain on your parade but Java1.3 is standard kit on MacOSX and it kicks ass too.
I used to have a better sig than this, but I got tired of it
If you bought your PC whole, e-mail the company today asking them to support java in XP.
-Dave
Here's the article on slashdot that talks about the Microsoft/Sun settlement. I remember specifically reading about how Microsoft agreed to get out of the Java business.
Unfortunately, the Yahoo! article expired...but I'm sure the details are floating around the net somewhere.
Anthony
A programmer is a machine for converting coffee into code.
This entire line of reasoning is ridiculous. You can still download the JDK and JRE for free. You can buy Java IDEs from a number of vendors. If you want Java on your computer, its easily achievable. Hell, if we are going to insist on OEMs putting a language toolkit on every computer (why you would do this is beyond me), at least make it an open language.
Yep. For years I've been making a living writing java applications - i.e. server code (wouldn't YOU rather write a server app in a language with huge networking libraries and some really sweet services already built for you? :) OTOH, pointing out on /. that Java's a great application language and the cheesy web stuff is a just a sidelight is kinda like peeing on a forest fire....
I remember at the PDC in 1997 MS was handing out buttons saying "Microsoft Loves Java"... I think I still have one around somewhere.
Sorta like the gimmick .99 cents added to the end of any price on sale items.
First, I think you meant the gimmick 99 cents, or .99 dollars. I'm not trying to give you a hard time; it's just a pet peeve of mine. Next, it's really more like a gimmick 1 cent that's subtracted. Psychological studies have shown that when dealing with numbers, most people don't want to bother with more than a couple of digits of precision, and prefer to truncate, rather than round. Thus, a lot of people see "5.99" and think "5". If you're mathematically inclined, this sounds crazy, but I've seen it in action. Most of the people I know generally don't fall for this, except with gasoline prices. They see "1.379" and think (and say) "1.37".
Its amazing, and tell to see what happens when M$ gets defeated in their stragegy.
M$:"You won't let me win!"
Java(Sun):"No I made up the game, and I want everyone to play as fair as possible"
M$:"But I'm bigger I should be allowed to make my own rules"
Java(Sun):"No, Billy you can't everyone has to play fair"
M$:"Well then I'm not playing anymore, and I'm not helping you play on my field, I'm taking my Ball and going home, Your game is dumb anyway, I'm gonna make up my own(C#), and its gonna be better, and everyone is gonna play my game instead cause I'm bigger and I have more fields.
Sound about right?
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
If you write decent, real web code it shouldn't matter one Damn bit what the client has on his side. The server should do ALL the work period. Client side scripting is a crutch for Admins, and web coders who can't figure out how to do things right anyway. And for the most part, what is Java Client side scripting used for anyway, POPUP ads(who cares), causing a new page to open as soon as you close the one your one you were on(most often seen in Porn sites, good ridence to that happening). Write your sites dynamically in PHP, Perl, Python, (Shudder)ASP, let it all execute on the server, and move on with your life.
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
I have no problem with this. Java on the web sucks for the most part. For corporate applications where you have to use Java, the latest JRE or JDK comes bundled anyway so nothing is lost there. All you have to do is include the JRE in the next version of Netscape, Mozilla, AIM or RealPlayer, which everyone installs anyway and everything is back to the status quo.
Even if it fades away on the desktop, Java is still useful in the backend on the server side, so it will live on as many other old languages have, being fruitful and all. How many Internet users out there really keep an eye on whether the servers driving their favorite Internet application are written in Java, C, or Cobol anyway? They just want to surf over to it and use it.
At any rate, this is the fault of Sun for not standardizing it as they should have. We don't see Javascript (or whatever its called these days) going anywhere.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
The Internet is unfortunately full of applets that suck. What I meant by Javascript not going anywhere was that it is an example of something has been standard and you don't see it disappearing because there is no war over it...it was just accepted. Bad choice for an example, I should have chosen something without the word Java in it so that you guys wouldn't have been reminded of the newbie "is Javascript the same as Java" questions.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
Aren't you making their case for them not doing it?
It also means the person taking the money has to open the till for change. Makes it harder for a shop assistant to simply pocket the money.
Consumers do have some influence when OEM'S make corporate decisions but ultimately Microsoft is their main customer for keeping them in bussiness and giving them money. Each OEM is begging Microsoft to be the first on the block to have windowsXP pre-installed because if they are not the first, then consumers will pick a competitor.
MS office became standard because oem's wanted cheaper prices for dos/windows 3.1. Microsoft holds all the keys for software distribution sadly enough. If I were Michael Dell, I would make sure no computer would come with java at all. I would email Gates about the java issue and hope for a discount. If I could get a %10 price decrese I could make alot more money in such tight economic times. This is really sad and is proof that Microsoft is really a monopoly. Why do you think HP and Dell do not even advertise desktops with linux pre-installed outside of linux tradeshows? Also Sun's staroffice is free. WHy are no OEMs acknowledging its existance? It costs them nothing? The answer is it just might anger MS.
Compaq killed alpha and refused to benchmark alpha vs pentiumIII running NT because they might anger intel. So they killed it and now can recieve greater profits by having lower intel prices.
If I were Michael Dell and if the Microsoft's OEM LEGAL AGREEMENT did not have a clause on not installing sun's java on all pc's, I would still not install it. Even for free. It makes good bussiness sense but it means bad news for consumers and sun.
http://saveie6.com/
You've never heard of Java on the server, have you? The war on doing web UIs may be over, and Java ain't it THERE... but Java is certainly winning on the business logic front, with EJBs and J2EE.
- Spryguy
- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
The JDK is arguably an installation of the Java language. The JRE is just a virtual machine. Some of us like to have it around in order to run the same compiled Scheme code on Linux and Windows.
There's one consistent philosophy that all /.ers support? Could somebody write it up and put it on a web page? How am I supposed to know what to think if nobody tells me?
Other Java proponents have asked Hemos to include the latest Java JRE link in his /. posts.
In fact, Mac IE doesn't have a JVM at all. It just interfaces to Apple's virtual machine.
Of course, the result is that it gets better Java support than (Mac) Netscape. How odd. ;)
my old sig used to be funny, but then slashcode ate it and now it's not funny anymore
I think Microsoft has just given themselves a black eye for no good reason here.
According to the settlement with SUN a little while back, M$ is not allowed to update any of their existing Java JVM technology, only to use what they wrote a few years ago. Under these conditions it seems reasonable that they do not want to include these old (incompatible?) DLL files with the new OS.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ the real world is much simpler ~~
--- -- - -
Give me LIBERTY, or give me a check.
Actually there is an effort being made to create a native java os called JOS. I don't know how mature it is right now since I am not part of the project, but it sounded promising the last time I checked their website. They also use a very liberal/open source/"free" method of development and online collaboration known as Wiki.
sure I'll have a sig.
Java is used quite extensively on the backend of many web pages (server side). In addition, many appliances/firewalls use a java application to manage them...that way it works on whatever OS your management station happens to be running.
IBM and Sun (of course) use java for the configuration of their firewalling and IPSec products, and it works very well for that task. it's that whole "write once, run anywhere" thing that actually does work if you use the proper class libraries and compiler.
Best use I've seen for Java on the client: Conway's Game of Life.
And afaik IE5.01 and 5.5 as a standard install don't install the JVM either but will prompt you with the option to download it if needed.
I doubt this will affect Java much - considering it seems to be moving into the embedded space in any case =).
--
Jon - TheSpork
oh, you mean microsoft is not going to try and "compete" with the oem's? good luck in the next round! you can either create useful experiences with good products and educate your customers, or you can accept the transition to an "easier" microsoft product experience--xbox. they do make rather nice mice, and will undoubtedly execute well.
If Sun really wants Java to be supported, they should do the work. Why not send out CDs with the Java JRE on them. This would solve the downloading problem. AOL has been mailing CDs for years, why can't Sun?
Gee, I thought the sales tax took care of that. No, the previous posters are correct: it's just taking advantage of peoples' innumeracy.
Why Java? Why not any number of other languages? Who anointed Java? I understand that lots of people like Java... good for them, they can go install it. I personaly don't like Java (I'm allowed to dislike it =), and really don't care if it's not installed on a new system I buy. Java on the client just sucks real bad... if you feel otherwise I'm pleased for you.
From the article:
What if I said the best thing that could happen to all of us is a complete backoff of all the bundling beyond what's specified in the W3C definition of the Web. Take Flash out. Take Java out...
Are we sure that we're just talking about the web here? The JRE gives the ability to run both applets in browser and normal Java apps... and it's not like there's a shortage of those
reech bee-yond ur clip-0n
You make some good points. I would tend to disagree on the whole Swing performance issue, though. True, Swing is piggy in its cycle consumption, but this is being offset by beefier hardware to the point where I'm not sure I care about this too much anymore. At my company (large N.A. bank) we run quite a number of Java client apps (e.g. a call center desktop) and performance is fine.
Anyways, the real point of my note is regarding the demise of JavaOS. I happened to be working with IBM labs at the time IBM had pitched in to bring JavaOS to market. The reason JavaOS died (according to my peers at IBM) were:
Of course, there were likely other political intrigues here...
CrazyLegs
"Pork!!" said the Fish, and we all laughed.
Microsoft funded an interesting preliminary implementation of Python for
So you are just the unwittingly conveyor of more MS propoganda: THAT
It turns out that if you like to program in VB or C#,
"This is a move with little or no cost for the OEMs but tremendous potential benefits for their customers."
.99 cents added to the end of any price on sale items.
If you have not noticed the news on the sales of new computers being very low as of late then it might suprise you that OEMs will do anything to cut costs and unless there is a huge public outcry they will not bother with it. Some might just do it to make it seem like they are adding features that others do not. Sorta like the gimmick
We could strike a blow for choice and give users a CD with the JRE on it instead. NO ONE uses Java for anything on the client side on Windows.
If a user really needs it, they know where they can get it.
Leave Java to the developers who need it. They'll put it on their target systems if they have to.
Dancin Santa
I'd sooner boycott any OEM that didn't preinstall Perl than one that failed to install Java.
What is your fascination with Java that makes you think it should automatically be installed everywhere? How many users will actually need it?
Dancin Santa
:-)
Actually, I only buy OEM machines (well, except for a barebones piece of crap that I picked up in the boonies of Maryland... but's that's another story).
Point 1: Yep. Spot on.
Point 2: It is futile to expect every piece of useful code to be preinstalled on an OEM system. Bleating for Java to be installed without also bleating for Perl or Python or the latest VB runtimes to be included as well is short sighted and borders on hypocrisy.
Thanks for the thoughtful response!
Dancin Santa
How about /. readers boycott any OEM that doesn't include Java in their new computers?
Given a reasonably level playing field, who would win a fight between a bear and a shark?
No client-side Java on Windows you say? What about the 3+ million people who have downloaded LimeWire, a Java-based Gnutella client? Every Windows installer contains a full copy of the JRE.
- Flash
- Acrobat
- Quicktime
etc. All it means is that you have to use the Java Plug-in tag syntax instead of the tag and make sure your applet is good enough to make people want to download and install the plugin. It's not a really big deal.For example, visit one of the Java plug-in demos and see how easy it is to install the silly thing.
[Hm, having done just that, it's not quite as easy as Flash, but oh well. Maybe Sun will wise up.]
Ooh, -1 redundant. Slashdot kiddiez are let loose again... Nevermind, still lots of karma left to post whatever the fuck I want.
Your pizza just the way you ought to have it.
Beyond the tech side of this, what M$oft is doing is more of the FUD they're famous for. Talking with one MicroSerf already about this issue, he loudly proclaimed, in his typical smug way, "Did you hear that Microsoft XP won't support Java" -- and what followed was a thin justification for developing all future applications in Visual Basic
I'm beginning to think that the road to MSCE includes some kind of secret ritual where they ask you to drink koolaid and purify yourself in some electric chamber ;)
Old age and treachery almost always overcome youth and skill.
And those people are likely going to want to have the newest and best Java run-time that they can have. Microsoft's isn't that because Sun said no.
Silly Rabbit...Sig's are for kids.
This is because we have this thing engrained into our heads of "You are not guilty until proven guilty" thing. Even though this only applies to criminal cases...people tend to carry this over to civil cases. Which btw there is no concept of guilt or innocent in civil cases.
Silly Rabbit...Sig's are for kids.
You know...white box motherboards BIOSes aren't all that. Hell I have even asked a major motherboards BIOS developer a question on how to work with their BIOS in regards to USB and he just changed the subject and wouold never answer my question. When that same question is asked of a major oem's bios dev...it gets answered...so no...piecing things together doesn't always get you that "quality" that everyone looks for.
Silly Rabbit...Sig's are for kids.
Well, alright, MS won't ship XP with their proprietary VM based on Sun's Java.
:)
.NET. Yep, there's in .NET's CLR native support for a lot of languages, which proves at least that MS means business, for real.
... Geeze, was that off-topic... Oh, to hell with it, it's only karma.
Instead, they'll ship it with their proprietary VM inspired from Sun's Java.
Alright, I have to admit I'm not entirely fair here; the whole C#/.NET thing is a little more than a ripoff of Java, but still.
Anyway, maybe we're just seeing a turning point in the history of compilation... Who knows, maybe in the future, we won't compile stuff for a given architecture, but for a given VM. That's the way Python, among others, was already headed with its Java implementation. Now it's also supported in
The big question is, I guess, will we be able to choose the VM we prefer, like we can currently do for Java? Knowing MS, that's unlikely. I suspect that there's a catch, and that the key components will remain in MS' possession, so that they don't give a darn about what OEMs install or don't install. Could a more MS-informed reader provide more information?
-- B.
-- B.
This sig does in fact not have the property it claims not to have.
"microsoft tech support is more than willing to assist you with your problems." Provided you have your credit card handy...
*** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
1) IMHO, Java's USP till date has been its platform independence.. A Java OS defeats this idea. The only reason Java has penetrated this far, is its capability to run on current platforms.
If the application is targeted at more than 1 platform, you are better off with Java.. Otherwise, chuck that JDK out, get a decent native-mode compiler, IDE and GUI toolkit..(and go for C++ , it's pretty cross-platform too :-)
Don't get out much, do you? I would say that most people don't even know what java is, and they leave it turned on in their browsers because they wouldn't know how to turn it off. They run java applets frequently without even realizing it. You need to think globally, dude.
GreyPoopon
--
GreyPoopon
--
Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?
I'm going to have to agree with you- i've just started working with java, and applets suck, and so does javascript. unfortunatly, sun has nothing to do with javascript, it was netscape's invention. i've been hopeing for a while that AOL would drop the name, so that a real java variant could be called JavaScript.
But anywho, java apps are auesome. they're getting too much drag from all the hype tho. maybe this will be just the thing to get people to concentrated on what java is really good at? i can only hope...
"It'll be like stealing candy from a baby... why, that look like a lark!" - Mr. Burns.
From my point of view, as a full time Java developer, this is more of a blessing than a curse.
.NET strategy.
When developing applets for clients I will no longer need to explain to them that IE has a JVM that is 5 years old and that they need to download a new one - I simple have say, visit Sun and get the latest JVM.
This is what I have to do when developing an application and people seem fairly happy with that.
I just really hope that this move doesn't convince good Java developers to switch to C#... there really is no need unless you want to stick with MS
I think O'Reilly has the right idea though - have OEMs include the latest JRE on any machines they distribute - that way customers will have a reasonable up to date runtime which they can use as they see fit.
Pete
Already being done. Latest mfg to preinstall Linux is big-ass computer giant Dell.
Now THAT means impact.
...um...like...a sig...
Plenty of vertical apps have been implemented using Java. Now its getting good enough for horizontal apps as well. It is also a nice and very productive programming language. I don't care too much about applets (this could change if Mozilla and NS 6 are truly stable) but Java applications are great! With JDK 1.4 (now in beta) things have progressed enough to make high performance 3D apps a reality - see the Grand Canyon Demo.
Java still promises freedom from Windows lockin - you can develop on Windows, Mac or Linux and deploy to any of them. These days, most things work fine cross-platform. I regularly test my Java app both on Windows and Linux (no Mac yet, but soon..;). So, do your part for freedom of choice - start programming in and advocating Java! Its a clean environment, and way ahead of .NYET.
186,282 mi/s...not just a good idea, its the law!
Galileo: "The Earth revolves around the Sun!"
Score: -1 100% Flamebait
I don't know of anybody who uses any java application on a regular basis. In fact, most of them run their browser with Java turned off. Applications requiring Java on the client side should be able to include the latest JRE on the CD. Now, if Sun would package up an install of Java without AWT or Swing and I'd be very happy. If they really want to play with GUI applications they should take a look at the native compilation method used by TAOS and .NET, it beats JIT
Right. So I can ruin an already fragile (yet functioning) Windows XP with even more restriction-bashing code. Give me a break.
These are the same people who argue against bloat by MS, but when it's bloat by a 3rd-party company (other than AOL), and it might wreck even further hell on the system's stability, they're all for it.
Why don't we throw g++ in there, while we're at it? And Perl? Let's fill the whole hard drive with interpreters and engines.
There's a reason why MS is even honoring the notion that they can drop Java, and it isn't just the war between Sun and itself. So few sites use Java nowadays that most Windows users never touch it. If it were a different story (like the AOL debacle) MS would be more or less forced to provide it because of the sheer numbers.
Face it. The war is over. Java was a great academic language, and it's "fun" to code in, but it's not going to take over c++ on the desktop and HTML on the web anytime soon.
I suspect I'm not going to like add-ins written with C# and .NET also; could MS please make that an optional download too so we can all choose if we like to see it or not?
At least this will save a lot of downloading time on the end users part.
I disagree. Even though building a computer may not be cheaper, it still guarantees that the computer will fit your needs better. If I build my own computer I get:
1) All manuals. Many OEMS ship only brain-dead manuals with no useful specs.
2) Guaranteed upgrade paths. Getting a top-notch motherboard and planning for spare memory slots goes a long way to making a long-lived and very flexible system.
3) Nothing you don't want, such as useless bundled software or crappy speakers.
The only disadvantages to building a computer are that it requires more experience to make proper choices and more time for research. Also, you have to buy from a reputable vendor that won't be going bankrupt anytime soon.
Unless the OEM is willing to let you dictate the specs of the system, building the computer yourself is the best way to go. If the OEM makes all of the decisions, the quality of the computer is really luck-of-the-draw. I have seen really nice OEM computers behave badly due to odd hardware choices and preconfigured software.
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
Since 95 percent of the Windows-users doesn't choose but eats what's served, I don't think this is the right option.
"Honey, I feel a certain distance between us..." "Really? A 31ms ping ain't that bad..."
As a Java developer. I can't really say that I care.
First off, I don't think everyone will be running out and buying Windows XP anytime soon. Why? Because it really is unnecessary for most. The expenditure isn't justified.
Lastly, I do agree with the person who said that its a matter of choice. If the JRE is needed to be installed, then it can be downloaded and installed. That's it.
Forcing a company to include anything in their distros really violates the very priniciples that most "freedom in software" people (including myself) uphold.
Trust me, people. Microsoft is going to dig their own grave... soon enough. Just a matter of time.
Agreed. I have been using this functionality for quite some time now in my own development efforts. The stateless nature of the web is a real problem when doing web based database apps and a socket connection to the server *really* helps alleviate that problem.
I'm very disappointed that the JRE will not be natively installed in XP. The power the applets give me is signficant. The omission of the JRE is going to force me to re-think some of my development efforts...ugh.
- Fantazem
...will OEM's choose to use an older version of JRE over the latest? I mean, are we gonna see another Microsoft-like move here? Personally, i'd rather see the latest JRE (1.4 beta....yes, i know its beta..), over 1.2....mainly for compatibility reasons.
...just as long as they use a 1.2.x....no more deprecated 1.1
Long Live JAVA!!!
"I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals. I'm a vegetarian because I hate plants." -- A. Whitney Brown
Applets won't run on an XP browser unless the user downloads and installs the plug-in (from Sun or whatever). Java applications won't run on an XP platform (or any platform) unless a VM is installed. So with eitehr the plug-in or the JRE on the desktop, is Java's death imminent? No way.
Java shines on the Server side, where people run whatever OS they want, whatever appserver they want (I recommend JBoss) and whatever Java VM they want. That MS stops "supporting" Java in XP is not going to change that at all. XP won't be used on many servers anyway, I guess.
Applets or Java (client) applications are mostly used in intranet environments. Installing a plug-in or a VM should be a breeze in such an environment. And then there's always a tool that can install the VM with your application (see the Sun site).
Bottomline, this doesn't hurt Java, but probably will eliminate most (future) Applets. But then again, they have been dead since 1998. Installing a JRE by an OEM isn't going to change this. I am just surprised that anno 2001 a lot of people still belive that Java's only use is to run or write Applets.
---
Bulding your own computer used to insure you got a system that fit your needs and was generally cheaper. This isn't necessarily true anymore. I'm getting a decent sum of money pretty soon and plan on getting a system with dual 1.2Ghtz Athlon MPs, 1GB of DDR ram, a ATI Radeon 64MB ddr video card, etc....Now I started pricing parts not too long ago on pricewatch.com , in the end the system I wanted would cost me about &2600 total (includes S&H), then I went to www.systemquotes.com , On their site they have one of those custom system builders. $2699 for the same system and a 1 year guarrunty, also it won't take me weeks to get all the separate parts in the mail, I'll get the wholething at once. It also allows you to save some money by not having an OS installed (they only alllow have winblows anyway).
http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article
Not necessarily, in some cases settling is cheaper than paying the court costs and possibly generating bad publicity. American society has become so litigiuous that corporations are constantly being sued for nonsensical reasons. Settling is a way to make them go away. Was that the case here? Maybe, maybe not (Sun did at least have a genuine complaint). Without all the facts its hard (or maybe too easy) to be a judge of guilt.
If Microsoft is letting the OEMs put custom software on the PCs, will they also allow having Linux pre-installed?
goto NULL;
I can't say I enjoy webpages with java. So this is just the right thing to do. Then we all can choose if we like to se it or not.
If it's wet, Drink it! spitzy.net cocktail recipes @ www.spitzy.net
If it's wet, Drink it!
Internet Explorer doesn't have 'hooks' built into it for Sun's JRE, it has ones for Microsoft's JRE, so including Sun's JRE doesn't make it automatically work with IE. You would still have have to include special syntax to cause the Sun Java plugin to run, which could make the applet not run under some other browsers.
The Sun JRE can't act like other Browser plugins because IE already checks for Java Applets, and offers to load the Microsoft JRE to run it.
If Microsoft actually removed all support for Java Applets, then Sun could build a standard browser plugin, and the whole issue would go away. We would have the ability to support the latest JRE under Internet Explorer, and Microsoft could quit supporting Java. Sun could even have the plugin check for newer versions of the JRE and offer to download the upgrade.
This could indeed be a blessing to the Java community, but a really big one if things play out right. Microsoft could still keep Sun from making Java Applet support easy to use.