What a pleasure to talk to someone who actually says when they agree, doesn't call me names, and appears to be entirely rational and intelligent. My faith in the human race has been restored, at least for a little while:-)
Yep, the Social Security fund contains a bunch of IOU's from all the politicians and committees who took the money out to use for something else.
Lots of folks don't understand that included in the National Debt is money we owe ourselves from similar shenanigans.
FICA represents payments into Social Security, which, assuming that the greedy politicians don't steal all of that money for yourself, you'll get back someday.
I'm one of those people who think you should be able to choose whether or not you want to participate in that system, but the social justice crowd who wants big brother to hold on to their money for them all disagree with me. After what happened in Crete perhaps they will get a little less trustworthy about big brother but I doubt it.
Everybody wants everybody else to pay more taxes - just not them. It's the nature of the system. Everybody wants everything else to be cut, just not their stuff.
This is because companies have stockholders, who are interested a getting a return on their investment today, not 20 years from now.
Let's put your statements in perspective. You mad because you want to invest your own personal money in something where the people managing the investment are overly concerned with giving you a return...
Haliburton got a single no bid contract during the early days of the war, approved by Congress, because it was decided that there wasn't time to go through normal procurement channels. Later, this contract was re-bid...
Your statement that they were the sole manager to "Rebuild Iraq" is absolutely false.
I see no indignation on how green energy DOE grants were handed out, which to the rest of us is PAY TO PLAY.
"It's worth noting that the already established and highly profitable oil companies take billions of incentives from your government every year."
I am so tired of hearing this rubbish. These subsidies go to small, wildcat drillers not the big oil companies.
The oil subsidies pale in comparison to the green energy subsidies. The only crime committed by the oil companies is that they don't give big enough bribes, er contributions to the Democrats. Follow the money here.
Thanks for engaging. Lots of smart folks here, that's why I participate.
I'm not a cynic, Clint, I'm a realist who has been involved in many, many business deals at the ripe old age of 57. I've worked with folks inside and outside the beltway, in public and private industry.
Every construction deal is a different story, I don't live in Virginia so I can't speak to how that particular arrangement came about, but my experience tells me that my description of events (which was meant to be enlightening, not a rant) isn't far off the truth when it comes to how things actually get done.
My goal is to educate people, not complain. Human nature is what it is.
There's a lot of well intention-ed, passionate young people who have been sold on the idea that if it has the word "government" written on it, that it is somehow far superior to any other way of getting things done, and that these people in government all have our greater interest in mind, and are high minded public servants who we should all trust to protect us from those nasty, evil corporations. The truth is that the sleaziest of people get into politics and government service Liars, greedy folks with no morals, and just plain cheats are everywhere, but when you get inside of government they are more abundant than the halls of corporate America. There's less of an incentive to produce, and more of an incentive to steal when the taxpayer's money is involved.
The attack on "evil corporations" is a smokescreen, driven by greed, by people who want more of the cash for themselves. At the end of the day, they way they actually get things done is more corrupt, more f*cked up, and more evil than people outside the system realize.
I stand by my statement that no, it's not a road. It's a vehicle to extort the maximum amount of cash from the taxpayer. The fact that a road actually gets built is almost by accident. When private enterprise builds something, it is a vehicle to extort the maximum amount of cash from the customer, in order to provide the maximum return for the stakeholders. The only difference is that the stakeholders in a corporation demand results, whereas taxpayers generally don't, they are too distracted by all of the ideological bullshit. Politicians are masters at distraction, making people angry, and creating fake enemies. This is, after all, the best way to control people, get them all angry at some group of people, and therefore justify taking away their freedom and/or enslaving them.
When you drive on a "public road" it costs more, in actuality, than the "private road" does. The difference is that you're paying for the public road in a thousand different ways, a few pennies here, a few pennies there. That's by design. If you really knew how much money had been wasted you'd be damn angry about it.
In the wonderful world of politics, and business, bribery is not only legal, it is the basis of most transactions. It's not officially called bribery, but that is what it is. It goes by a myriad of names. Campaign Contributions. Pay to Play. I'll scratch your back if you're scratch mine. Preferred Contractor. Bonuses. Incentive pay. Settled out of court. Union Contract. Political Action Committee. etc. etc. etc.
The whole game of politics is accepting a bribe in return for doing a favor. Obviously you've never played this game. You want the world to be neatly ordered, like the computer systems you work on. It's not. It's a rather ugly place, run by greed. with a few good, honest folks in there but not many.
We don't have ELECTIONS. We have AUCTIONS. All the ideological hocus pocus is a smokescreen of complete bullshit. It has always been this way, always.
Clint you are probably young, enthusiastic, and a bit naive.
There's no such thing as a road built by the government, or a private toll road built by a private corporation.
Here's how roads get built:
The government has to allocates funds to build a road. This is decided through a process of exchanging favors. It goes like this: First, someone in your district gives you a bribe, er contribution, er promise to deliver votes in return for a juicy, high margin road building contract. In the case of infrastructure, this almost involves the teamsters unions, who take their members dues and use them to buy politicians. This kind of back room dealing occurs for every aspect of the "planning"process, that occurs at every level for every subcontractor who will get a piece of the pie. A lot of head banging and back room deals occur here that involve what is essentially protection money.
So the politician, who is not your friend, puts together this money laundering scheme where he gets elected using the money he's extorted from all of these folks in return for the promise of a high margin contract. The government, unlike private enterprise, is far easier to milk for vast sums of money while showing little or not results - they have no profit motive and no stockholders demanding quarterly results.
Then, in the legislature, another level of deal making takes place. Politicians exchange bribes to get the road building bill through. So your road building bill gets a a few million tacked on by the guy who tortures puppies to extract organs to make cosmetics (in return for the other politician giving him a million dollars to big oil, who he is beholden to). Of course none of this bears any resemblance at all to the high sounding ideology this politician spouted when you voted for him. He lines his own pockets as much as possible, and makes sure his friends rip off as much of your tax dollars as possible, to support their lifestyles, that are far more extravagant than yours. His lifestyle demands the cash flow all of these backroom deals generate, and his is above the law of course.
Finally, we have a pork laden, bribe filled road construction bill, and it passes. Everyone who didn't get a bribe sues to try to get more money. These are usually called such innocent things as "environmental impact studies". Lies flow from the politicians, to the press, to the people.
Then, the money is doled out to all the folks who paid bribes to get the contract. It being the government, they are under no real pressure to perform (no stockholders holding them accountable). Their primary goal is to keep the government money flowing into their pockets as long as possible. So they create delays after delays, and create a myriad of rules where one worker is required to have two supervisors, a safety engineer, a sensitivity specialist, and a union rep.
The road is built, at the highest possible cost to you, the taxpayer, at the lowest quality. It isn't a road at all. It's a giant scheme to extract the most amount of money from the taxpayers, and line the pockets of all of the shady characters who put the deal together, so they can get rich while feeding you bullshit about social justice, or the evils of the other party.
A "private" road comes about because the greed of the people involved was so great, they couldn't put a deal together that anyone would sign on to it was so badly structured. So they brought in a non governmental entity, and cut a shady deal with them so there was enough scratch in the deal that everybody got a properly sized piece. These almost always result in the private investor owning the road at the end, while the government union runs it. A loose-loose deal if there every was one, except for the folks who were on the inside and raped the taxpayers to line their own pockets.
So you see, my dear Clint, the actual hard truth is that the government is the most corrupt of all of the enterprises we have, that's why they
When has the government ever done anything "fairly" or to ensure "ease of access"?
Politicians, after all, are the easiest people in the world to bribe, it is the only job in America where bribes are legal. The result is something that pervades every aspect of government at all levels called PAY TO PLAY.
This ensures that 1) The biggest briber gets the best deal 2) Everyone else gets screwed.
Worse, governments spout all kinds of emotional propaganda to cover up the actual reality of how the system works, directing people's anger away from the real criminals onto other groups in society. Then they promise "openness" and "transparency:" while doing the exact opposite. Millions of well intentioned good people are duped by this propaganda every single day.
These "larger, unbelievably complex financial structures designed to shelter [hide] income/capital gains from tax authorities" came about because POLITICIANS wrote the "loopholes" into the tax law as FAVORS to these rich folks in return for BRIBES (contributions).
They knew exactly what they were doing.
At the same time the most guilty ones rant and rave about how they care deeply about the middle class, and poor people, and how they are going to punish those evil rich people. Of course, they never actually do....
These "loopholes" were written into the tax law by politicians in order to buy votes with the dollars they got in return.
LISTEN UP SOCIAL JUSTICE MORONS:
The politicians are the enemy here. The same people who are waging this class warfare argument are the one's doing this. They are using your emotions, directing your hate at the "evil corporations" and "rich people" so you pay no attention to what they themselves are doing.
The Health Care bill - was a massive pay off to the insurance companies, not a way to help poor middle class folks get health care. Dodd/Frank had nothing to do with punishing the evil bankers at all. It was yet another big payoff to Wall Street, to buy more votes.
You really need to go visit the Eastern Bloc, my friend. Talk to real people who lived under Soviet rule. See the monuments to the millions of people who starved to death while living in "relative peace". Understand a culture where even today, everyone wears a completely blank face in public for fear of being singled out for being different. Ask people to show you the buildings, where people went in, but did not ever come out. See the walls with pictures of all the loved ones who were taken from their families because their thoughts were unclean.
The entire vision fostered on you by the American Press about what the USSR/Eastern bloc was, and how it worked, and how the people lived is a complete fabrication. Go visit there and see for yourself.
Want to see what Communism REALLY is? Go visit there, don't read about it, or take the word of some College Professor. The suffering these people endured while living in your "relative peace" is so completely beyond the imagination of the average American it is simply beyond the pale my friend.
You're right I went from 50 watts to 100 watts there. Sorry about that. You may be right about a 50 watt 12 volt panel being the same as a 50 watts at 110 volts but it doesn't sound right to me. I'm not an EE. I do know that power and energy are often confused, and that watt is a measurement that includes time. Wikipedia says: In terms of electromagnetism, one watt is the rate at which work is done when one ampere (A) of current flows through an electrical potential difference of one volt (V). The terms power and energy are frequently confused. Power is the rate at which energy is generated or consumed and hence is measured in units (eg. watts) that represent 'energy per unit time'.
I do know a little about inverters. The inverter manufacturer doesn't give you a chart that says "You put 12v in at this many amps draw you can pull this many amps out at 240v A/C"
Why is that?
Inverters are not linear devices. You get 82% efficiency at the perfect combination of inputs and outputs. Marketing again. The 82% value means "under perfect conditions that favor the manufacturer.
What I do know for certain is that professional grid tie installers quickly convinced me that most of what I was led to believe about the payback, and efficiency of solar and wind systems was mostly hype. I have no bias for, or against solar energy, or wind energy. To me, it's a non emotional, economic decision.
I know that the cost per kilowatt hour of solar and wind, after you remove the government sponsorship (that I can't count on forever) is pretty high relative to other forms of generation. If this were not true, the proponents of solar/wind would not be going out of their way to artificially increase the prices of the other forms, and try to stop the building of plants. If solar/wind really was all that and then some, and economically viable, we would all be using it. Energy is commodity. I'm going to buy it at the cheapest price I can find. Again, it's not emotional for me. If it is for someone else, and they want to pay more for it, good for them.
So what grates me is reading all these claims on solar energy web sites about how incredibly efficient and wonderful solar power is, and the ever present insinuation that there is some hidden conspiracy preventing it's widespread adoption, and yet when I call an expert to my house, show him my electric bill, and he figures the payoff for a $20,000 investment in solar technology is 20 years - and then cautions me that this does not factor in maintenance cost for the system, or degrading output over time.... If I invest that same $20,000 in a money market account at.5% interest I'll see a greater return than I will investing in solar/wind. The only reason I would make such a move is to make myself feel better.
Right down the street from me is a "solar home" with all kinds of fancy solar systems in it. It's been for sale for years, and years. The owners will never see their investment paid back. I'm not saying this is "proof" but it is "actual reality".
I talked to multiple professional installers, this is what I learned. Why would I lease my property for 0$? Makes no sense.
There's no anger, that only comes when I read the web sites with absurd claims:-) Or people who think a 50 watt panel at 12 volts will power a 50 watt 110 volt light bulb.
I've analyzed grid tie systems every which way but Sunday for my property. I have the perfect setup - 2 acres of land, no restrictive covenants, and a sixty foot heavy duty tower I could put a wind turbine on (Was using it for ham radio). Lots of solar panels means less grass to mow, it's a win-win all around.
The payback is closer to 20 years, and that is questionable -- as no one really knows how power output will degrade over time. This takes into account the government subsidies available last year when I went through this.
Yes, you read all kinds of wild claims on the Internet. But when you do the math, and talk to the energy company, and the installers... it just doesn't add up.
Yes there are few states where the subsidies are so generous there is a value proposition. But that really isn't a fair comparison, is it? Will the promise of never raising your rates actually be kept? Ask the people who live on Cyprus about what the government can choose to do.
I have a good friend just like you, who was absolutely convinced with my 2 acres I could become a rich man selling electricity back to the energy companies. He'd learned all this reading claims online. He doesn't want to talk about it anymore. Not at all. Changes the subject he does.
I am speaking from actual, real world experience. Tell us about your solar installation and how it works. Solar is "feel good" energy in my opinion. Just like premium gas, and "green" products... Wind, same thing.
Slashdot Mirror
What a pleasure to talk to someone who actually says when they agree, doesn't call me names, and appears to be entirely rational and intelligent. My faith in the human race has been restored, at least for a little while
Yep, the Social Security fund contains a bunch of IOU's from all the politicians and committees who took the money out to use for something else.
Lots of folks don't understand that included in the National Debt is money we owe ourselves from similar shenanigans.
FICA represents payments into Social Security, which, assuming that the greedy politicians don't steal all of that money for yourself, you'll get back someday.
I'm one of those people who think you should be able to choose whether or not you want to participate in that system, but the social justice crowd who wants big brother to hold on to their money for them all disagree with me. After what happened in Crete perhaps they will get a little less trustworthy about big brother but I doubt it.
Everybody wants everybody else to pay more taxes - just not them. It's the nature of the system. Everybody wants everything else to be cut, just not their stuff.
This is because companies have stockholders, who are interested a getting a return on their investment today, not 20 years from now.
Let's put your statements in perspective. You mad because you want to invest your own personal money in something where the people managing the investment are overly concerned with giving you a return...
In government speak, not spending money you planned to spend (whether you have this money or not) is called a "cut".
A reduction in the future rate of growth, no matter how unsustainable the projected rate of growth was, is called a "surplus"
So a "loan guarantee" becomes the same as a loan. It is all doublespeak designed to confuse people.
Haliburton got a single no bid contract during the early days of the war, approved by Congress, because it was decided that there wasn't time to go through normal procurement channels. Later, this contract was re-bid...
Your statement that they were the sole manager to "Rebuild Iraq" is absolutely false.
I see no indignation on how green energy DOE grants were handed out, which to the rest of us is PAY TO PLAY.
"It's worth noting that the already established and highly profitable oil companies take billions of incentives from your government every year."
I am so tired of hearing this rubbish. These subsidies go to small, wildcat drillers not the big oil companies.
The oil subsidies pale in comparison to the green energy subsidies. The only crime committed by the oil companies is that they don't give big enough bribes, er contributions to the Democrats. Follow the money here.
Thanks for engaging. Lots of smart folks here, that's why I participate.
I'm not a cynic, Clint, I'm a realist who has been involved in many, many business deals at the ripe old age of 57. I've worked with folks inside and outside the beltway, in public and private industry.
Every construction deal is a different story, I don't live in Virginia so I can't speak to how that particular arrangement came about, but my experience tells me that my description of events (which was meant to be enlightening, not a rant) isn't far off the truth when it comes to how things actually get done.
My goal is to educate people, not complain. Human nature is what it is.
There's a lot of well intention-ed, passionate young people who have been sold on the idea that if it has the word "government" written on it, that it is somehow far superior to any other way of getting things done, and that these people in government all have our greater interest in mind, and are high minded public servants who we should all trust to protect us from those nasty, evil corporations. The truth is that the sleaziest of people get into politics and government service Liars, greedy folks with no morals, and just plain cheats are everywhere, but when you get inside of government they are more abundant than the halls of corporate America. There's less of an incentive to produce, and more of an incentive to steal when the taxpayer's money is involved.
The attack on "evil corporations" is a smokescreen, driven by greed, by people who want more of the cash for themselves. At the end of the day, they way they actually get things done is more corrupt, more f*cked up, and more evil than people outside the system realize.
I stand by my statement that no, it's not a road. It's a vehicle to extort the maximum amount of cash from the taxpayer. The fact that a road actually gets built is almost by accident. When private enterprise builds something, it is a vehicle to extort the maximum amount of cash from the customer, in order to provide the maximum return for the stakeholders. The only difference is that the stakeholders in a corporation demand results, whereas taxpayers generally don't, they are too distracted by all of the ideological bullshit. Politicians are masters at distraction, making people angry, and creating fake enemies. This is, after all, the best way to control people, get them all angry at some group of people, and therefore justify taking away their freedom and/or enslaving them.
When you drive on a "public road" it costs more, in actuality, than the "private road" does. The difference is that you're paying for the public road in a thousand different ways, a few pennies here, a few pennies there. That's by design. If you really knew how much money had been wasted you'd be damn angry about it.
In the wonderful world of politics, and business, bribery is not only legal, it is the basis of most transactions. It's not officially called bribery, but that is what it is. It goes by a myriad of names. Campaign Contributions. Pay to Play. I'll scratch your back if you're scratch mine. Preferred Contractor. Bonuses. Incentive pay. Settled out of court. Union Contract. Political Action Committee. etc. etc. etc.
The whole game of politics is accepting a bribe in return for doing a favor. Obviously you've never played this game. You want the world to be neatly ordered, like the computer systems you work on. It's not. It's a rather ugly place, run by greed. with a few good, honest folks in there but not many.
We don't have ELECTIONS. We have AUCTIONS. All the ideological hocus pocus is a smokescreen of complete bullshit. It has always been this way, always.
Clint you are probably young, enthusiastic, and a bit naive.
There's no such thing as a road built by the government, or a private toll road built by a private corporation.
Here's how roads get built:
The government has to allocates funds to build a road. This is decided through a process of exchanging favors. It goes like this: First, someone in your district gives you a bribe, er contribution, er promise to deliver votes in return for a juicy, high margin road building contract. In the case of infrastructure, this almost involves the teamsters unions, who take their members dues and use them to buy politicians. This kind of back room dealing occurs for every aspect of the "planning"process, that occurs at every level for every subcontractor who will get a piece of the pie. A lot of head banging and back room deals occur here that involve what is essentially protection money.
So the politician, who is not your friend, puts together this money laundering scheme where he gets elected using the money he's extorted from all of these folks in return for the promise of a high margin contract. The government, unlike private enterprise, is far easier to milk for vast sums of money while showing little or not results - they have no profit motive and no stockholders demanding quarterly results.
Then, in the legislature, another level of deal making takes place. Politicians exchange bribes to get the road building bill through. So your road building bill gets a a few million tacked on by the guy who tortures puppies to extract organs to make cosmetics (in return for the other politician giving him a million dollars to big oil, who he is beholden to). Of course none of this bears any resemblance at all to the high sounding ideology this politician spouted when you voted for him. He lines his own pockets as much as possible, and makes sure his friends rip off as much of your tax dollars as possible, to support their lifestyles, that are far more extravagant than yours. His lifestyle demands the cash flow all of these backroom deals generate, and his is above the law of course.
Finally, we have a pork laden, bribe filled road construction bill, and it passes. Everyone who didn't get a bribe sues to try to get more money. These are usually called such innocent things as "environmental impact studies". Lies flow from the politicians, to the press, to the people.
Then, the money is doled out to all the folks who paid bribes to get the contract. It being the government, they are under no real pressure to perform (no stockholders holding them accountable). Their primary goal is to keep the government money flowing into their pockets as long as possible. So they create delays after delays, and create a myriad of rules where one worker is required to have two supervisors, a safety engineer, a sensitivity specialist, and a union rep.
The road is built, at the highest possible cost to you, the taxpayer, at the lowest quality. It isn't a road at all. It's a giant scheme to extract the most amount of money from the taxpayers, and line the pockets of all of the shady characters who put the deal together, so they can get rich while feeding you bullshit about social justice, or the evils of the other party.
A "private" road comes about because the greed of the people involved was so great, they couldn't put a deal together that anyone would sign on to it was so badly structured. So they brought in a non governmental entity, and cut a shady deal with them so there was enough scratch in the deal that everybody got a properly sized piece. These almost always result in the private investor owning the road at the end, while the government union runs it. A loose-loose deal if there every was one, except for the folks who were on the inside and raped the taxpayers to line their own pockets.
So you see, my dear Clint, the actual hard truth is that the government is the most corrupt of all of the enterprises we have, that's why they
When has the government ever done anything "fairly" or to ensure "ease of access"?
Politicians, after all, are the easiest people in the world to bribe, it is the only job in America where bribes are legal. The result is something that pervades every aspect of government at all levels called PAY TO PLAY.
This ensures that 1) The biggest briber gets the best deal 2) Everyone else gets screwed.
Worse, governments spout all kinds of emotional propaganda to cover up the actual reality of how the system works, directing people's anger away from the real criminals onto other groups in society. Then they promise "openness" and "transparency:" while doing the exact opposite. Millions of well intentioned good people are duped by this propaganda every single day.
It is possible that the entire leak was fabricated by someone with an axe to grind, a political point to make, or an enemies list.
Running a business year after year at a loss to avoid paying taxes... is illegal. When the IRS shows up at your door please report back to us.
Just one problem with the NPR story. They didn't transfer a lot of money, and they didn't wait a year for the IRS letters to come in.
They also failed to mention that money held offshore has currency fluctuation issues...
No doubt you consider the FICA deduction a "Tax", and fail to understand that when you file your tax return you get most of the income tax back.
Annoy class warfare lefties, quote facts. Obviously you're a r*cist who only gets their news from Rushbo, right?
Kudos to you Sir.
Yes, but of course they failed to wait a year for the IRS letter to come. You know, the one you get when you fail to report transfers, 1099's, etc.
These "larger, unbelievably complex financial structures designed to shelter [hide] income/capital gains from tax authorities" came about because POLITICIANS wrote the "loopholes" into the tax law as FAVORS to these rich folks in return for BRIBES (contributions).
They knew exactly what they were doing.
At the same time the most guilty ones rant and rave about how they care deeply about the middle class, and poor people, and how they are going to punish those evil rich people. Of course, they never actually do....
Oh the ignorance. You can't transfer money out of your U.S. bank without the IRS knowing about it.
The "wealth" you speak of, you already paid taxes on it, unless you obtained it illegally.
These "loopholes" were written into the tax law by politicians in order to buy votes with the dollars they got in return.
LISTEN UP SOCIAL JUSTICE MORONS:
The politicians are the enemy here. The same people who are waging this class warfare argument are the one's doing this. They are using your emotions, directing your hate at the "evil corporations" and "rich people" so you pay no attention to what they themselves are doing.
The Health Care bill - was a massive pay off to the insurance companies, not a way to help poor middle class folks get health care. Dodd/Frank had nothing to do with punishing the evil bankers at all. It was yet another big payoff to Wall Street, to buy more votes.
Follow The Money Trail
You really need to go visit the Eastern Bloc, my friend. Talk to real people who lived under Soviet rule. See the monuments to the millions of people who starved to death while living in "relative peace". Understand a culture where even today, everyone wears a completely blank face in public for fear of being singled out for being different. Ask people to show you the buildings, where people went in, but did not ever come out. See the walls with pictures of all the loved ones who were taken from their families because their thoughts were unclean.
The entire vision fostered on you by the American Press about what the USSR/Eastern bloc was, and how it worked, and how the people lived is a complete fabrication. Go visit there and see for yourself.
Want to see what Communism REALLY is? Go visit there, don't read about it, or take the word of some College Professor. The suffering these people endured while living in your "relative peace" is so completely beyond the imagination of the average American it is simply beyond the pale my friend.
This has been going on for decades...
If there was anything else in the news, it would be a non story...
You're right I went from 50 watts to 100 watts there. Sorry about that. You may be right about a 50 watt 12 volt panel being the same as a 50 watts at 110 volts but it doesn't sound right to me. I'm not an EE. I do know that power and energy are often confused, and that watt is a measurement that includes time. Wikipedia says: In terms of electromagnetism, one watt is the rate at which work is done when one ampere (A) of current flows through an electrical potential difference of one volt (V). The terms power and energy are frequently confused. Power is the rate at which energy is generated or consumed and hence is measured in units (eg. watts) that represent 'energy per unit time'.
.5% interest I'll see a greater return than I will investing in solar/wind. The only reason I would make such a move is to make myself feel better.
I do know a little about inverters. The inverter manufacturer doesn't give you a chart that says "You put 12v in at this many amps draw you can pull this many amps out at 240v A/C"
Why is that?
Inverters are not linear devices. You get 82% efficiency at the perfect combination of inputs and outputs. Marketing again. The 82% value means "under perfect conditions that favor the manufacturer.
What I do know for certain is that professional grid tie installers quickly convinced me that most of what I was led to believe about the payback, and efficiency of solar and wind systems was mostly hype. I have no bias for, or against solar energy, or wind energy. To me, it's a non emotional, economic decision.
I know that the cost per kilowatt hour of solar and wind, after you remove the government sponsorship (that I can't count on forever) is pretty high relative to other forms of generation. If this were not true, the proponents of solar/wind would not be going out of their way to artificially increase the prices of the other forms, and try to stop the building of plants. If solar/wind really was all that and then some, and economically viable, we would all be using it. Energy is commodity. I'm going to buy it at the cheapest price I can find. Again, it's not emotional for me. If it is for someone else, and they want to pay more for it, good for them.
So what grates me is reading all these claims on solar energy web sites about how incredibly efficient and wonderful solar power is, and the ever present insinuation that there is some hidden conspiracy preventing it's widespread adoption, and yet when I call an expert to my house, show him my electric bill, and he figures the payoff for a $20,000 investment in solar technology is 20 years - and then cautions me that this does not factor in maintenance cost for the system, or degrading output over time.... If I invest that same $20,000 in a money market account at
Right down the street from me is a "solar home" with all kinds of fancy solar systems in it. It's been for sale for years, and years. The owners will never see their investment paid back. I'm not saying this is "proof" but it is "actual reality".
A 100 watt light bulb at 110 volts requires just a little over one ampere of current to produce a light output of 1,750 lumens.
A 60 watt solar panel at full output produces 12 volts. That's 60 watts at 12 volts. Not 110 volts. 12 volts.
A square wave inverter, sufficient to run said light bulb, is approximately 75% efficient, meaning 25% of the energy is lost in the process as heat.
Do the math.
What you have done, Mr. Catprog, is prove my whole point in such a spectacular way it is really quite impressive.
I have plenty of solar lights.
:-) Or people who think a 50 watt panel at 12 volts will power a 50 watt 110 volt light bulb.
I talked to multiple professional installers, this is what I learned. Why would I lease my property for 0$? Makes no sense.
There's no anger, that only comes when I read the web sites with absurd claims
I've analyzed grid tie systems every which way but Sunday for my property. I have the perfect setup - 2 acres of land, no restrictive covenants, and a sixty foot heavy duty tower I could put a wind turbine on (Was using it for ham radio). Lots of solar panels means less grass to mow, it's a win-win all around.
The payback is closer to 20 years, and that is questionable -- as no one really knows how power output will degrade over time. This takes into account the government subsidies available last year when I went through this.
Yes, you read all kinds of wild claims on the Internet. But when you do the math, and talk to the energy company, and the installers... it just doesn't add up.
Yes there are few states where the subsidies are so generous there is a value proposition. But that really isn't a fair comparison, is it? Will the promise of never raising your rates actually be kept? Ask the people who live on Cyprus about what the government can choose to do.
I have a good friend just like you, who was absolutely convinced with my 2 acres I could become a rich man selling electricity back to the energy companies. He'd learned all this reading claims online. He doesn't want to talk about it anymore. Not at all. Changes the subject he does.
I am speaking from actual, real world experience. Tell us about your solar installation and how it works. Solar is "feel good" energy in my opinion. Just like premium gas, and "green" products... Wind, same thing.