They have a history of breaking flashback being UI feature compatible if it somehow inconveniences what they want with Shell. Minimize would not put things at the bottom of the alt-tab stack for over two years when McCann was busy breaking Shell.
And no one before you breathed about COBOL. What the hell does copying and pasting PYTHON have to do with the price of tea in China or COBOL.
Shit, if I had said something about adding whitespace to COBOL (well for flow control as older versions of COBOL were certainly interested in the first 7 characters being blank) then your comment might have some relevance; but because you started a tangent that no one is interested in doesn't mean we don't understand what you are saying.
Which is about copying and pasting Python with whitespace. And now you are blathering on about COBOL. That is moving the goal post. I replied to a message about whitespace AND python. You've brought in makefiles and COBOL. WTF.
But the parent (grandparent) wasn't talking about COBOL or Makefiles. They were talking about the "issue" of copying code around Python.
I'm not seeing any actual arguments or examples about the utility of punctuation; but if so, lets talk about the utility of whitespace and readability.
Diversity in the community would be great. I like GNOME's Women Outreach program (too bad none of it becomes usable by those of us who won't use GNOME). But when three people seemingly dictate the entire direction of GNOME shell and happily break workflows whenever they think something "looks ugly" I'm less than thrilled and I am not actually seeing diversity. I remember reading the mailing list for input for different Asian languages and being appalled. Both because GNOME's guiding decision on input seemed based on the fact that the chosen developer was a drinking buddy of Alan Days' (meritocracy?); it was also the monolinguist English speaker who tried to shut down the conversation because he knew better as a programmer.
So I would love to lock down my Aunt's and Grandmother's computers. GNOME is out; they both need apps on their desktop and the computer to function exactly the way the are use to or they simply can't use it. I'd love to have a Linux desktop at work. We have some Redhat server boxes because docker and python is pretty damn cool. But it's a Windows shop / financial type company and pretty conservative. So we ssh in and X probably isn't anywhere in the company. And none of us Linux users will make a peep about Linux on the desktop; it just isn't feasible given defaults. Most of us (one exception) would rather be on Windows than on GNOME and we aren't going to have root to install our own desktops. And when we do talk to a technical person about getting them on Linux at home we invariable suggest Mint and Cinnamon or MATE.
So there is the frustration. Linux is losing ground on the Desktop. GNOME is chasing a class of user I don't see existing (technical enough to know about Linux and GNOME Shell but somehow has never experienced a traditional desktop). And lets not pretend that you have youth appeal; my experience (former teacher, 10 years) with high school students was a distinct lack of enthusiasm for GNOME.
So yeah, I can get by with alternative desktops. But I certainly don't proselytize for Linux anymore. "Here is a desktop I dislike, you should try it." - not exactly a selling point. "Or you pretty much should stick with this one distribution because the desktop that is most usable is a little too tightly tied to how they release their software."
Aren't you the one who always says that it isn't a tablet interface? Isn't that a direct contradiction to what you claim here?
How many people do you think are going to pick up a GNOME desktop without having been exposed to a Windows interface first? Who is going to show them Gnome? The disaffected Linux user who is now on MATE?
PS: My crappy anecdote trumps your unsubstantiated claim.
Former students of mine put Linux back on my machines. None of them use Gnome. (I was specifically warned off of Gnome). Most use Cinnamon. Now they were all introduced to Linux from the same teacher so maybe that has something (everything) to do with it. But do you have ANY evidence that young people like the Gnome interface more than other interfaces? My anecdotal evidence is that they strongly dislike Gnome. But hey, lets change break everybody's workflows every release and then claim we are doing it to attract the kids.
I just took a quick look at Tufte. He seems to advocate reading papers over PowerPoint. Now which has more white space? You might be extrapolating much more than you should.
I would much prefer a derivative desktop that I enjoyed using than a desktop that stands on its own but I find frustrating.
Furthermore, in my opinion it isn't the lack of communication; it is putting a few "designers" preferences over what looks good over the function and workflow of users and former users. At this point I don't trust the GNOME leadership enough to even use classic. Thankfully I am enjoying Cinnamon and am finally back on Linux.
Because I can quickly without touching anything see the percentage I am in a webpage which I can't with auto-hiding scroll bars. Moreover, scroll bars are at the side of the screen which cost me nothing on a large widescreen monitor as those spots are otherwise dead space.
Moreover, what I'm saying is that the stuff that worked for the last 20 years shouldn't be mucked about with without a good reason. You claim they are improving things, I can claim with as much evidence that they are screwing things up. Given use statistics I can actually make my claim with strong evidence and you have: "cuz Apple does it on a 3 inch screen."
Furthermore, there is no way you can call what is at the side of Safari on iOS a scroll bar. You can't select it, it is hardly visible and you certainly can't jump ahead. Long documents are difficult with such an interface.
We agree the dock is fundamentally broken and that Macs don't do what I need them to do because of muscle memory (and surely this impacts others) and I can't say that Macs suck? Of course they suck. Those are all easy preference settings. And Windows should have the same preference settings for Mac refugees so Windows sucks too. But I'd happily pick Windows over Apple or GNOME.
I don't want my desktop with its two large monitors acting like your touch screen mobile device (which doesn't have scroll bars, so I don't know why you claim they validate auto-hiding). So I think I'll stay with the tried and true desktop metaphor instead of letting you decide what options I should even have to look at. With scroll bars this leaves me... just about everything but GNOME.
And scroll bars aren't the real issue with me. I want alt-tab to work the same way it has worked for me the last 20 years (the mac style drives me crazy, an actual blocker). I want menu bars on the window not at the top. I want quick launch so I can click with a mouse and launch the app. I want a taskbar and I find "overview mode" actively hostile to those of us with any sort of ADHD. Again, not a problem. Windows 7, KDE (finally) and Cinnamon all fit the bill. GNOME seems to find all of those outlandish requests. Scroll bars are just more of the same where GNOME "designers" know better and yet fewer and fewer people use GNOME.
And those of use with large screens and would like to have vertical scroll bars don't get a choice to use them because GNOME knows best. And small devices always trumps those of use with large screens. Huzzah.
The Dock isn't fixed position so you can use memory to start the pointer to the correct spot.
Not sure what you mean, computer memory or brain memory? I use folder shortcuts on the right-hand side of the dock and set the view to "list." Then I click in the same spot each time and start typing the name of the item I need. Very efficient.
All I know is that by default the applications change position on the bottom of the doc as you open up files and programs. Dislike.
Can't get normal alt-tab to work.
Again, not sure what you mean. I have no difficulty using Command-tab to switch applications and Command-~ to switch windows. I hate using Exposé and trackpad gestures.
How nice for you. After 20 years using windows and linux systems I can't change my muscle memory to use both command-tab and command~. I want command-tab to cycle through open windows and that apparently isn't configurable. I've tried on and off for a year to adjust to the Mac way and just isn't happening. This is a blocker and I don't know why I even tried to get use to it. Computers should adjust to me, I shouldn't adjust to a computer.
Can't get menu bars on the actual window.
On the plus side, the menu bar is always visible and you don't have to zero in on each window's narrow menu bar to click a menu. Fitts' Law and all that.
I will happily give up the fraction of a fraction of a second to Fitt's Law and look at the right damn spot. I think this is especially hostile to people with any sort of ADHD as we look at a bunch of other tasks and windows as our eyes travel to the top of the screen and away from where we are working. I'd also point out that Tog did all his Fitt's Law testing on the speeds (and I really don't care about such an insignificant time gain) back on a 6" screen.
Maximize doesn't.
That's because it's not a maximize button; it's a 'zoom' button. It switches between the application's default window size and the user's custom size.
I'd rather have a maximize button. A button that will give you a half dozen different sizes when you click it six times in a row is simply broken. And yes, depending on ads in a browser it will happily do that. I'm sceptical about it being a user's custom size when it merrily is any size it feels like every time I hit that tiny little button (where did Fitt's go there?)
Overall, I find the Mac interface much more pleasant to use than the alternatives, but I'm still waiting for someone to invent a GUI that is fully configurable and can load your preferred settings in one step.
I'll agree with wanting a system that would load my settings; I'd happily given $$$ for a system that let me configure it in hours let alone one step. Mac and GNOME won't do either for me. And while it is nice for you that the Apple interface works well for you, I find it about as pleasant as working with a needle in my eye.
Because Macs suck even more? The Dock isn't fixed position so you can use memory to start the pointer to the correct spot. Can't get normal alt-tab to work. Can't get menu bars on the actual window. Maximize doesn't.
Most of my notifications are clearly not associated with time in any way shape or form. You are also locking notifications into a particular calendar program. If you are using a different calendar it seems a bit hostile to force you to use GNOME's.
This is GNOME 3.16. Why would I compare a.0 with the 8th release? Frankly I think a lot of the criticism in 2.0 was justified and it isn't this blink hate of GNOME from slashdot that gets portrayed in the GNOME community, which looking at later releases of GNOME 2 adequately demonstrates.
Personally I find DEs with overview mode hostile to those with ADHD. And some of the bugs with regressions are simply too painful to fathom. I use minimize to change the order of alt-tab. This was impossible in GNOME for well over a year in both Shell and Classic because Jon McCann thought fullscreen was "ugly." People using fullscreen were also more than a bit put out.
So while it is nice that you think it is improving, any group that claims to say form follows function and then does crap like that while treating its users and former users with such disdain is certainly not for me. That and I just can't get past the overview mode. I don't need additional flashing.
Slashdot Mirror
They have a history of breaking flashback being UI feature compatible if it somehow inconveniences what they want with Shell. Minimize would not put things at the bottom of the alt-tab stack for over two years when McCann was busy breaking Shell.
And no one before you breathed about COBOL. What the hell does copying and pasting PYTHON have to do with the price of tea in China or COBOL.
Shit, if I had said something about adding whitespace to COBOL (well for flow control as older versions of COBOL were certainly interested in the first 7 characters being blank) then your comment might have some relevance; but because you started a tangent that no one is interested in doesn't mean we don't understand what you are saying.
https://slashdot.org/comments....
Which is about copying and pasting Python with whitespace. And now you are blathering on about COBOL. That is moving the goal post. I replied to a message about whitespace AND python. You've brought in makefiles and COBOL. WTF.
Comprehension is not the problem. You changing the goal post would be the problem.
But the parent (grandparent) wasn't talking about COBOL or Makefiles. They were talking about the "issue" of copying code around Python.
I'm not seeing any actual arguments or examples about the utility of punctuation; but if so, lets talk about the utility of whitespace and readability.
Some of us gray beards prefer whitespace thank you very much.
"==="? I think you have the wrong language.
I have never found anyone who had difficulty with copying code around or with code snippets. I'm not even sure how that is a theoretical problem.
Diversity in the community would be great. I like GNOME's Women Outreach program (too bad none of it becomes usable by those of us who won't use GNOME). But when three people seemingly dictate the entire direction of GNOME shell and happily break workflows whenever they think something "looks ugly" I'm less than thrilled and I am not actually seeing diversity. I remember reading the mailing list for input for different Asian languages and being appalled. Both because GNOME's guiding decision on input seemed based on the fact that the chosen developer was a drinking buddy of Alan Days' (meritocracy?); it was also the monolinguist English speaker who tried to shut down the conversation because he knew better as a programmer.
So I would love to lock down my Aunt's and Grandmother's computers. GNOME is out; they both need apps on their desktop and the computer to function exactly the way the are use to or they simply can't use it. I'd love to have a Linux desktop at work. We have some Redhat server boxes because docker and python is pretty damn cool. But it's a Windows shop / financial type company and pretty conservative. So we ssh in and X probably isn't anywhere in the company. And none of us Linux users will make a peep about Linux on the desktop; it just isn't feasible given defaults. Most of us (one exception) would rather be on Windows than on GNOME and we aren't going to have root to install our own desktops. And when we do talk to a technical person about getting them on Linux at home we invariable suggest Mint and Cinnamon or MATE.
So there is the frustration. Linux is losing ground on the Desktop. GNOME is chasing a class of user I don't see existing (technical enough to know about Linux and GNOME Shell but somehow has never experienced a traditional desktop). And lets not pretend that you have youth appeal; my experience (former teacher, 10 years) with high school students was a distinct lack of enthusiasm for GNOME.
So yeah, I can get by with alternative desktops. But I certainly don't proselytize for Linux anymore. "Here is a desktop I dislike, you should try it." - not exactly a selling point. "Or you pretty much should stick with this one distribution because the desktop that is most usable is a little too tightly tied to how they release their software."
Probably true that webapps are beginning to dominate. Which might mean we've already lost. Google Docs isn't exactly free software.
And given how low the price is for the OS tax anymore, it has really gotten hard to recommend Linux give the state of the desktop.
Aren't you the one who always says that it isn't a tablet interface? Isn't that a direct contradiction to what you claim here?
How many people do you think are going to pick up a GNOME desktop without having been exposed to a Windows interface first? Who is going to show them Gnome? The disaffected Linux user who is now on MATE?
PS: My crappy anecdote trumps your unsubstantiated claim.
Former students of mine put Linux back on my machines. None of them use Gnome. (I was specifically warned off of Gnome). Most use Cinnamon. Now they were all introduced to Linux from the same teacher so maybe that has something (everything) to do with it. But do you have ANY evidence that young people like the Gnome interface more than other interfaces? My anecdotal evidence is that they strongly dislike Gnome. But hey, lets change break everybody's workflows every release and then claim we are doing it to attract the kids.
I just took a quick look at Tufte. He seems to advocate reading papers over PowerPoint. Now which has more white space? You might be extrapolating much more than you should.
Any of this in peer reviewed journals?
I would much prefer a derivative desktop that I enjoyed using than a desktop that stands on its own but I find frustrating.
Furthermore, in my opinion it isn't the lack of communication; it is putting a few "designers" preferences over what looks good over the function and workflow of users and former users. At this point I don't trust the GNOME leadership enough to even use classic. Thankfully I am enjoying Cinnamon and am finally back on Linux.
Because I can quickly without touching anything see the percentage I am in a webpage which I can't with auto-hiding scroll bars. Moreover, scroll bars are at the side of the screen which cost me nothing on a large widescreen monitor as those spots are otherwise dead space.
Moreover, what I'm saying is that the stuff that worked for the last 20 years shouldn't be mucked about with without a good reason. You claim they are improving things, I can claim with as much evidence that they are screwing things up. Given use statistics I can actually make my claim with strong evidence and you have: "cuz Apple does it on a 3 inch screen."
Furthermore, there is no way you can call what is at the side of Safari on iOS a scroll bar. You can't select it, it is hardly visible and you certainly can't jump ahead. Long documents are difficult with such an interface.
We agree the dock is fundamentally broken and that Macs don't do what I need them to do because of muscle memory (and surely this impacts others) and I can't say that Macs suck? Of course they suck. Those are all easy preference settings. And Windows should have the same preference settings for Mac refugees so Windows sucks too. But I'd happily pick Windows over Apple or GNOME.
So no user interface testing on auto-hiding scroll bars and will not be an option.
I don't want my desktop with its two large monitors acting like your touch screen mobile device (which doesn't have scroll bars, so I don't know why you claim they validate auto-hiding). So I think I'll stay with the tried and true desktop metaphor instead of letting you decide what options I should even have to look at. With scroll bars this leaves me... just about everything but GNOME.
And scroll bars aren't the real issue with me. I want alt-tab to work the same way it has worked for me the last 20 years (the mac style drives me crazy, an actual blocker). I want menu bars on the window not at the top. I want quick launch so I can click with a mouse and launch the app. I want a taskbar and I find "overview mode" actively hostile to those of us with any sort of ADHD. Again, not a problem. Windows 7, KDE (finally) and Cinnamon all fit the bill. GNOME seems to find all of those outlandish requests. Scroll bars are just more of the same where GNOME "designers" know better and yet fewer and fewer people use GNOME.
What wouldn't be difficult would be a preference box (which I would leave as off, but whatever on the default). Want to wager if that will happen? ;-)
Your claim that auto-hiding scroll bars work perfectly for everyone needs a citation. I don't believe there has been any usability testing.
And those of use with large screens and would like to have vertical scroll bars don't get a choice to use them because GNOME knows best. And small devices always trumps those of use with large screens. Huzzah.
Sometimes you've just gone backwards...
Not sure what you mean, computer memory or brain memory? I use folder shortcuts on the right-hand side of the dock and set the view to "list." Then I click in the same spot each time and start typing the name of the item I need. Very efficient.
All I know is that by default the applications change position on the bottom of the doc as you open up files and programs. Dislike.
Again, not sure what you mean. I have no difficulty using Command-tab to switch applications and Command-~ to switch windows. I hate using Exposé and trackpad gestures.
How nice for you. After 20 years using windows and linux systems I can't change my muscle memory to use both command-tab and command~. I want command-tab to cycle through open windows and that apparently isn't configurable. I've tried on and off for a year to adjust to the Mac way and just isn't happening. This is a blocker and I don't know why I even tried to get use to it. Computers should adjust to me, I shouldn't adjust to a computer.
On the plus side, the menu bar is always visible and you don't have to zero in on each window's narrow menu bar to click a menu. Fitts' Law and all that.
I will happily give up the fraction of a fraction of a second to Fitt's Law and look at the right damn spot. I think this is especially hostile to people with any sort of ADHD as we look at a bunch of other tasks and windows as our eyes travel to the top of the screen and away from where we are working. I'd also point out that Tog did all his Fitt's Law testing on the speeds (and I really don't care about such an insignificant time gain) back on a 6" screen.
That's because it's not a maximize button; it's a 'zoom' button. It switches between the application's default window size and the user's custom size.
I'd rather have a maximize button. A button that will give you a half dozen different sizes when you click it six times in a row is simply broken. And yes, depending on ads in a browser it will happily do that. I'm sceptical about it being a user's custom size when it merrily is any size it feels like every time I hit that tiny little button (where did Fitt's go there?)
Overall, I find the Mac interface much more pleasant to use than the alternatives, but I'm still waiting for someone to invent a GUI that is fully configurable and can load your preferred settings in one step.
I'll agree with wanting a system that would load my settings; I'd happily given $$$ for a system that let me configure it in hours let alone one step. Mac and GNOME won't do either for me. And while it is nice for you that the Apple interface works well for you, I find it about as pleasant as working with a needle in my eye.
Because Macs suck even more? The Dock isn't fixed position so you can use memory to start the pointer to the correct spot. Can't get normal alt-tab to work. Can't get menu bars on the actual window. Maximize doesn't.
How's that working for GNOME? Year of Linux on the Desktop? *sigh*
Most of my notifications are clearly not associated with time in any way shape or form. You are also locking notifications into a particular calendar program. If you are using a different calendar it seems a bit hostile to force you to use GNOME's.
This is GNOME 3.16. Why would I compare a .0 with the 8th release?
Frankly I think a lot of the criticism in 2.0 was justified and it isn't this blink hate of GNOME from slashdot that gets portrayed in the GNOME community, which looking at later releases of GNOME 2 adequately demonstrates.
Personally I find DEs with overview mode hostile to those with ADHD. And some of the bugs with regressions are simply too painful to fathom. I use minimize to change the order of alt-tab. This was impossible in GNOME for well over a year in both Shell and Classic because Jon McCann thought fullscreen was "ugly." People using fullscreen were also more than a bit put out.
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/sho...
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/sho...
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/sho...
So while it is nice that you think it is improving, any group that claims to say form follows function and then does crap like that while treating its users and former users with such disdain is certainly not for me. That and I just can't get past the overview mode. I don't need additional flashing.