Apple isn't a charity. They aren't bound to give away shit at a level that you, in particular, deem adequate.
No, but they are required by law to declare cash reserves beyond a certain level as profits and pay tax on that profit. After that they might choose, for example, to distribute that cash as dividends. Those are not activities of a charity, but you seem to think that "not a charity" means they get to do whatever they want.
Stock options are not a risk free compensation. That you think so is laughable.
Wow, have you drunk the Kool Aid! I'll take some of your executive-style options if you feel that they're too risky. Bonus points for backdating.
They also can't cash out on those options immediately or they'll have to pay the full US income tax rate on them.
You mean pay the same max tax rate as us peasants? Good heavens, no!
They're used to make sure that executives have a vested interest in the fortunes of the company they work for in the longer term.
Don't bother trying to educate a bigot. I hate the H-1B program as much as the next American, but I abhor racism. Also, somebody please mod the GP down to -2.
My point is more that this very organization shouldn't and in reality is not very good at being an true arbiter of "fairness".
So should we give up on any attempt on fairness in the tax code? What if we tax everybody at 100% of income up until $250k. Everything after that is yours. The rich would never feel it (until they realized they'd lost almost all their customers).
Most of the people working in hospitality I dealt with during a 6 week tour of Europe (inc, France, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Czech Republic, Hungary, etc.) spoke at least 2-3 languages. One of our swiss tour guides spoke at least 5.
That'd probably be true in the US if every state spoke a different language. One of the things that always strikes me when I go to Europe is how physically small the countries are. I'm not saying that's good, bad or indifferent, but it is a very different experience from being in the US. Hop in the car or on a train, travel a few hours (or less) and you're in a different country speaking a different language. It provides a much greater incentive to learn, and makes it much easier to retain a knowledge of other languages.
I'd think the US situation would be even more true in Australia, but you tell me.
People whine about automation but its pointless. Its the future. Deal with it.
I don't know if I'd say it's the future, because someday the Luddites might win. It is, however, the only way that we can increase or even maintain (in the face of more expensive natural resources) our standard of living. It does cause short term pain, and you shouldn't deny that reality. However the rate of job loss is less than when they ship whole factories or industries offshore. The automation also provides a genuine permanent increase in productivity, rather than the supposed comparative advantage of offshoring (which is actually cost shifting - true comparative advantage comes from climate and geography, human skills and infrastructure can change quickly).
Most likely this "development" is hype, but if it isn't, then great. I hope they create great technology.
We are forcing responsible companies, that want to make financial reserves not to do them.
No. Companies are allowed to keep reasonable financial reserves, but the billions that Apple and other companies keep are anything but reasonable reserves, and are unprecedented. This was worked out decades ago, but they stopped enforcing it.
most American's take advantage of the "legal loophole" called the itemized deduction
And Apple takes its payroll expenses as a legitimate business expense. OTOH I forgot to declare my residence as being in have a dozen countries that I've never even visited.
Nice quote. Don't forget to mention that Jefferson believed in progressive taxes, opposed standing armies, and thought that all corporations should be "strangled in the crib".
if and when some large bank uses legal methods to unfairly foreclose on your home
Banks haven't bothered with "legal" in years. Ever hear of the robo-signing scandal? They submit falsified documents in foreclosure hearings by the truck load. No enforcement. If you or I tried that with one document, we'd go up the river.
Apple spends comparatively little on lobbying, even by tech standards.
If they won't pay their fair share of taxes, at least they should pay their fair of bribes. Other companies should complain about that. Imagine the congressional hearings where tech company X excoriates Apple. "It's unfair congressman. Apple paid lower taxes than us even though we paid higher bribes."
If you change these rules and supposed "loopholes" that Apple and others are using, then we all suffer.
I'm the sort of unprincipled person that would be perfectly happy with Apple paying more taxes so I don't have to. If that means I'm suffering, I'll live with it.
this profit is held overseas, where it was earned. It wasn't made with the US infrastructure, but with the Chinese (predominantly) infrastructure. And they've paid taxes on it overseas already.
Another one who hasn't RTFA'ed, so I'll just have to post this extract from the NYT again:
Congressional investigators found that some of Apple’s subsidiaries had no employees and were largely run by top officials from the company’s headquarters in Cupertino, Calif. But by officially locating them in places like Ireland, Apple was able to, in effect, make them stateless — exempt from taxes, record-keeping laws and the need for the subsidiaries to even file tax returns anywhere in the world.
Say if we just taxed Apple's profits at 15% or whatever and call it a day - at least we got a piece of the pie and took away any incentive for Apple to keep money offshore.
If Apple could play games and get that 15% down to 10% they would, 5% or 0% would be even better. They can afford the bean counters and shysters. I agree the US tax code, especially the corporate one, is absurdly complex (largely due to all the loopholes that have been added). I even agree the nominal corporate tax rate is too high. However, the effective corporate tax rate is modest by international standards. Apple pays even less than that because they can, not because it's "onerous".
Actually Steve Jobs and Eric Schmidt lobbied for a one-time tax holiday so they could repatriate their income earned overseas without losing a large portion of it in taxes.
We had a one-time tax holiday like that not too many years ago. What they lobbied for was a second "one-time" tax holiday. The promised US investment from the first one never materialized, so even congress didn't get dupped (or bought) for a second one.
To continue your analogy, not looking for evidence, or even patrolling the beat, is evidence of policy negligence or corruption. These congressional hearings are just grandstanding - the IRS has reduced the number of personnel for corporate tax investigation and enforcement.
why should they be illegal?
For the same reason that all taxes exist: to get money. Did you think there was another reason?
Moreover an abstract legal and financial entity with so much money seems like a good place to get it. Alternatively they can get more of it from me. I don't like that option.
Better to occupy Washington, because they're the ones that let this crap happen. Similarly I blame the US government for tolerating unfair Chinese trade practices rather than China for engaging in them. Whether or not you moralize about it, what would you expect Apple or China to do?
The answer is that America should move to the world standard of taxation by source.
Because the large corporations of other rich countries don't play games like this to avoid taxes.
like going to metric
Strictly a domestic issue. We're secretly a metric country when it comes to exporting industries (true, but even most of the American people don't know it). For example, American cars (made in the US) have been metric for decades. I work for a company that does a lot of international sales, and it's been corporate policy since the beginning of time to do everything in hard metric. Sorry if it offends you that American supermarkets sell things by the pound instead of the kilo.
Slashdot Mirror
Apple isn't a charity. They aren't bound to give away shit at a level that you, in particular, deem adequate.
No, but they are required by law to declare cash reserves beyond a certain level as profits and pay tax on that profit. After that they might choose, for example, to distribute that cash as dividends. Those are not activities of a charity, but you seem to think that "not a charity" means they get to do whatever they want.
Stock options are not a risk free compensation. That you think so is laughable.
Wow, have you drunk the Kool Aid! I'll take some of your executive-style options if you feel that they're too risky. Bonus points for backdating.
They also can't cash out on those options immediately or they'll have to pay the full US income tax rate on them.
You mean pay the same max tax rate as us peasants? Good heavens, no!
They're used to make sure that executives have a vested interest in the fortunes of the company they work for in the longer term.
I've got a bridge to sell you.
Then I apologize for calling you a racist, but you're still a bigot, regardless of the details.
Don't bother trying to educate a bigot. I hate the H-1B program as much as the next American, but I abhor racism. Also, somebody please mod the GP down to -2.
My point is more that this very organization shouldn't and in reality is not very good at being an true arbiter of "fairness".
So should we give up on any attempt on fairness in the tax code? What if we tax everybody at 100% of income up until $250k. Everything after that is yours. The rich would never feel it (until they realized they'd lost almost all their customers).
Most of the people working in hospitality I dealt with during a 6 week tour of Europe (inc, France, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Czech Republic, Hungary, etc.) spoke at least 2-3 languages. One of our swiss tour guides spoke at least 5.
That'd probably be true in the US if every state spoke a different language. One of the things that always strikes me when I go to Europe is how physically small the countries are. I'm not saying that's good, bad or indifferent, but it is a very different experience from being in the US. Hop in the car or on a train, travel a few hours (or less) and you're in a different country speaking a different language. It provides a much greater incentive to learn, and makes it much easier to retain a knowledge of other languages.
I'd think the US situation would be even more true in Australia, but you tell me.
The same point as why we had French in my high school... there isn't one.
I can't figure out whether you're definitely not Canadian, or definitely an (Anglophone) Canadian.
Well it is a step in the right direction.
I agree, but I wish they'd learn proper English first.
We need more automation in general.
People whine about automation but its pointless. Its the future. Deal with it.
I don't know if I'd say it's the future, because someday the Luddites might win. It is, however, the only way that we can increase or even maintain (in the face of more expensive natural resources) our standard of living. It does cause short term pain, and you shouldn't deny that reality. However the rate of job loss is less than when they ship whole factories or industries offshore. The automation also provides a genuine permanent increase in productivity, rather than the supposed comparative advantage of offshoring (which is actually cost shifting - true comparative advantage comes from climate and geography, human skills and infrastructure can change quickly).
Most likely this "development" is hype, but if it isn't, then great. I hope they create great technology.
Ironically, it'd likely work just as well as hiring Indian help-desk staff.
Better.
Whether or not it is "fair" in a moral sense is irrelevant.
Irrelevant to what? Not to me.
If you think that amount is unfair, raise the issue with your democratically elected government.
I have, along with millions of others. So far the response has been underwhelming. Apparently most of us can't afford the required bribes.
We are forcing responsible companies, that want to make financial reserves not to do them.
No. Companies are allowed to keep reasonable financial reserves, but the billions that Apple and other companies keep are anything but reasonable reserves, and are unprecedented. This was worked out decades ago, but they stopped enforcing it.
most American's take advantage of the "legal loophole" called the itemized deduction
And Apple takes its payroll expenses as a legitimate business expense. OTOH I forgot to declare my residence as being in have a dozen countries that I've never even visited.
I pay tax on most of my income. I also have to pay sales tax when I buy something.
I think Thomas Jefferson said it best
Nice quote. Don't forget to mention that Jefferson believed in progressive taxes, opposed standing armies, and thought that all corporations should be "strangled in the crib".
if and when some large bank uses legal methods to unfairly foreclose on your home
Banks haven't bothered with "legal" in years. Ever hear of the robo-signing scandal? They submit falsified documents in foreclosure hearings by the truck load. No enforcement. If you or I tried that with one document, we'd go up the river.
Apple spends comparatively little on lobbying, even by tech standards.
If they won't pay their fair share of taxes, at least they should pay their fair of bribes. Other companies should complain about that. Imagine the congressional hearings where tech company X excoriates Apple. "It's unfair congressman. Apple paid lower taxes than us even though we paid higher bribes."
They don't even spend that much money lobbying.
They don't have to. It's amazing how cheaply you can buy the US government.
If you change these rules and supposed "loopholes" that Apple and others are using, then we all suffer.
I'm the sort of unprincipled person that would be perfectly happy with Apple paying more taxes so I don't have to. If that means I'm suffering, I'll live with it.
this profit is held overseas, where it was earned. It wasn't made with the US infrastructure, but with the Chinese (predominantly) infrastructure. And they've paid taxes on it overseas already.
Another one who hasn't RTFA'ed, so I'll just have to post this extract from the NYT again:
Congressional investigators found that some of Apple’s subsidiaries had no employees and were largely run by top officials from the company’s headquarters in Cupertino, Calif. But by officially locating them in places like Ireland, Apple was able to, in effect, make them stateless — exempt from taxes, record-keeping laws and the need for the subsidiaries to even file tax returns anywhere in the world.
Say if we just taxed Apple's profits at 15% or whatever and call it a day - at least we got a piece of the pie and took away any incentive for Apple to keep money offshore.
If Apple could play games and get that 15% down to 10% they would, 5% or 0% would be even better. They can afford the bean counters and shysters. I agree the US tax code, especially the corporate one, is absurdly complex (largely due to all the loopholes that have been added). I even agree the nominal corporate tax rate is too high. However, the effective corporate tax rate is modest by international standards. Apple pays even less than that because they can, not because it's "onerous".
Actually Steve Jobs and Eric Schmidt lobbied for a one-time tax holiday so they could repatriate their income earned overseas without losing a large portion of it in taxes.
We had a one-time tax holiday like that not too many years ago. What they lobbied for was a second "one-time" tax holiday. The promised US investment from the first one never materialized, so even congress didn't get dupped (or bought) for a second one.
Your fair share of taxes is what the law says it is, whether or not that law is fair.
In other words it's fair whether or not it's fair.
If the law doesn't determine what someones fair share is, who does? You?
Yes. You're not distinguishing between the ethical notion of fairness and the legal obligation to pay your taxes.
if you have not evidence you are in fact innocent
To continue your analogy, not looking for evidence, or even patrolling the beat, is evidence of policy negligence or corruption. These congressional hearings are just grandstanding - the IRS has reduced the number of personnel for corporate tax investigation and enforcement.
why should they be illegal?
For the same reason that all taxes exist: to get money. Did you think there was another reason?
Moreover an abstract legal and financial entity with so much money seems like a good place to get it. Alternatively they can get more of it from me. I don't like that option.
Maybe "Occupy Cupertino"?
Better to occupy Washington, because they're the ones that let this crap happen. Similarly I blame the US government for tolerating unfair Chinese trade practices rather than China for engaging in them. Whether or not you moralize about it, what would you expect Apple or China to do?
The answer is that America should move to the world standard of taxation by source.
Because the large corporations of other rich countries don't play games like this to avoid taxes.
like going to metric
Strictly a domestic issue. We're secretly a metric country when it comes to exporting industries (true, but even most of the American people don't know it). For example, American cars (made in the US) have been metric for decades. I work for a company that does a lot of international sales, and it's been corporate policy since the beginning of time to do everything in hard metric. Sorry if it offends you that American supermarkets sell things by the pound instead of the kilo.