For example they can not bow to American pressure to make their currency unatractive like Japan did and end up with lost decades.
In other words, it's ok for China to be mercantilist and keep their currency artificially low, but wrong for the US to object to it.
As for "bow[ing] to American pressure", would that include the US threatening to impose tariffs and quotas on Chinese imports? As a sovereign country the US can do that. Don't bother giving me any nonsense about "violation of international agreements", because China has been in such blatant violation of so many agreements for so long that it's laughable.
You're also completely wrong about what caused Japan's lost decade(s). It was caused by a collapse of stock and real estate bubbles. It's similar to what happened here more recently, except that fortunately for us, they didn't happen at the same time. And as absurd as our real estate bubble was, it was nothing compared to Japan's. It got so ridiculous that the valuation of the grounds of the Imperial Palace was higher than for the entire state of California.
Spain, Ireland and a few others were considered models of economic growth and probity before the Lesser Depression. Now of course they're considered "irresponsible" by the same people that lauded them before. Greece is a different story, but put that one aside because it's so different than the others and their economy is so small that it's not of great importance to the EU. Comparing Greece and Spain is absurd.
Germany, despite its other virtues, is a mercantilist country. No wonder they embraced the Euro. Otherwise when the economies of other European countries went south (more than Germany's) the exchange rates of those countries' currencies would have dropped and Germany would have lost much of their current advantage.
Because Japan's economic growth after WWII did depend heavily on inexpensive knock-off copies. That only changed several decades after WWII, when their economy had reached a higher level.
There are also important difference between Japan and China though. Japan heavily emphasized quality. The Deming prize for improved quality is awarded in Japan, and it's quite prestigious. Ironically it's named for W. Edwards Deming - an American. He had some excellent ideas for quality improvement that the Japanese took very seriously. Unfortunately many American manufacturers didn't (especially car companies).
Another difference is that Japan always discouraged foreign direct investment.
The TFA refers to percent of GDP, which is meaningless.
No, it's not. A high proportion of R&D costs is labor. Because of the difference in salaries between different countries, %/GDP matters more than absolute numbers.
The heritage piece was an opportunist hatchet job to discredit all democratic presidential candidates
That must explain their crediting Hillary Clinton with having raised a legitimate concern, and their incredibly partisan conclusion that "it is not clear from the record that either Republicans or the Democrats, Bushes or Clintons, have the intestinal fortitude to take the steps necessary to monitor problematic foreign investment in America's high-technology manufacturing sectors".
Kos is so vague that I would argue it is wrong, and clearly given the date a pro-Obama job.
Yes, they're guilty of making incredibly vague statements like "in 1995 The Clinton Administration approved the sale of an Indiana company that made guidence systems for smart bombs to a Chinese led consortium". How could you even attempt to verify that?
I see editorial opportunism in both
Yes, citing facts to bolster an opinion is clearly opportunism.
So what is the point? Are they both right?
That wouldn't be surprising\, given that they both mention the same facts and concerns.
Who is overgeneralizing? The US has been actively engaged in pressuring, subverting, or overthrowing governments around the world
You're still the one overgeneralizing. In pursuit of making one point that suits your purposes, you're ignoring the complexities and inconsistencies of history. While the US has been guilty many times, there are many times where it hasn't. For example, have you noticed that Japan became an independent country after one of history's most benign occupations?
promote our own agendas since shortly after we joined The Great War a century ago
After the Great War the US actually became more isolationist. The examples you're looking for pre-date WWI and post-date WWII. It's important to know the "details" of history, lest one make inaccurate inferences and generalizations.
Or do you suppose Australia signed on to the extremist US copyright treaties because they thought it was such a good idea for their nation?
And what do you think the US would have done if Australia hadn't agreed to that? China is Australia's biggest export market, and Australia is one of the few countries the US runs a trade surplus with. Just because many Australians don't like the policy, doesn't mean the Australian government is opposed. Or do you think there aren't policies opposed by Americans that the American government happily adopts?
obviously the small nations surrounding China are allied with the US out of fear of China, especially those affected by China's openly declared intent to reclaim regions that were once part of the empire
It's even worse than that. They're trying to claim places that were only ever part of the Chinese Empire in fantasyland. If they ever get more serious about reclaiming their ancient empire, it will include Vietnam. They already control Tibet, and have made some scary noises about diverting the flow of rivers that are essential to India and Southeast Asia. Where do you think India's and Southeast Asia's hostility towards China comes from?
how long do you suppose a Cold War alliance between Canada and the Soviet Union would have gone unchallenged by the US?
How long do you suppose a split of Europe between the Eastern and Western blocks would have gone unchallenged? Yet, despite all the defenses and posturing, it remained a cold war for over 40 years. Neither the US nor the USSR was crazy or egotistical enough to change that. Let's hope the same is true of China.
Whatever the reason for the demise of the Avro Arrow, I doubt it would have kept Canada from selling titanium to the US. The US has been Canada's largest trade partner for decades, and last I checked NORAD is a joint US-Canadian operation. Canada also buys US aircraft.
Your older posts are all over the place, judging by the ones from "Anonymous Coward". If you want to debate, why don't you get a name here instead of hiding behind anonymity?
You have a hard on for hating on China today don't ya? I mean your older posts were also filled with Asia-hate
Do you know the difference between China and Asia? Talk about racist. I guess they're all the same to you.
racists gonna race
Assuming that you've now learned the difference between China and Asia, racist would be bashing East Asians, not China. And if I had concerns about Russia, would you accuse me of being racist against white people?
Moreover, where have I displayed any hatred towards the Chinese people or their cultures? Oh, that's right, nowhere. But if you don't have a valid criticism, you can always fall back on the race card. Some unthinking people might even buy into it.
Lastly, as should be obvious to any thinking person who has read my posts, my concern is with the policies of the Chinese government. Even those are concerns about a potential adversary. Where have I been "hateful"?
Of course that would likely start a trade war with China, which we can ill afford.
Start a trade war? We've been in a trade war with China for many years, but only one side has been fighting it. As for who would be hurt worse if we started fighting back, it would be China. It would mean the loss of a major market for them, but we would benefit from bringing back some of our manufacturing and R&D. It's been sold out for the short term benefit of a small group of people that does not include you and me. I don't think we should try and make low end products in the US though, but there are lots of countries we can buy cheap garbage from.
Take control from who? A handful of neighbors that they've been at odds with forever?
Yes.
Or from some other superpower that tries to exert authority over everything not absolutely locked down as belonging to someone else
Don't overgeneralize - we're not talking about Iraq here. Those islands belong to various countries in East Asia and the surrounding waters. Yes, most of them are US allies, but they're becoming more strongly allied with the US because they're afraid of China. Vietnam an ally? Fact is stranger than fiction. The Philippines making contingency plans to let us return to Clark AFB and Subic Bay (bases that we left in an entirely peaceful way at the request of the Philippine government). Yeah, they're more concerned about China than the US - and with good reason.
they are only a manufacturer that takes rare earths as an input... What we need is a domestic supply of RE ores.
We need both. Oddly, we used to have both. Then we decided to sell the country at fire sale prices. Have you seen a check for your cut of the proceeds of that sale?
If you think the magnet thing is bad, how do you feel about G.E. to Share Jet Technology With China in New Joint Venture? No dual use there, right? An easy field to develop expertise in, right? Which explains why the three major Western jet engine manufacturers (GE, Pratt-Whitney and Rolls-Royce), have been in control of the field since WWII. This is not something you figure out overnight. It's also no secret that jet engines are the biggest obstacle to developing "all Chinese" fighters.
After the war of 1812 it became clear to Britian that the US was becoming a major force.
Hardly. The US military was still a joke compared to the UK's. The miracle is that we fought the War of 1812 to a draw instead of going back to being a British colony. Much of that was due to the fact that the UK was tied up in the Napoleonic Wars at the time. The War of 1812 was an all consuming war for the US, and a sideshow for the UK.
Over the ensuing decades Britian spent a lot of effort to contain us militarily.
Out of temporary necessity, the titanium was bought through third parties without the USSR knowing what it was being used for. The supply situation was also rectified ASAP.
And magnets are unimportant? If you think so, you aren't familiar with their importance.
You can't do much spying with a piece of metal.
You can't do much spying with just a piece of glass either, yet lots of spy technology uses very sophisticated lenses. Just the tech for making certain types of optical glass, let alone turning it into lenses, is very sophisticated stuff.
China already has a near monopoly on rare earth materials
Because we let them have a near monopoly. There are deposits of rare earth metals in the US and other countries besides China. China has even played games with prohibiting the export of rare earths (in direct violation of trade agreements, but nobody ever calls China on that anyway).
The good thing to do would be to try to plan ahead and develop internal facilities so that eventually it's roughly breaking even to use US magnets instead.
Even better would have been not to have sold Magnequench to China in the first place.
Wasn't it a clever idea to let Magnaquench be sold to China? For those unfamiliar with it Magnaquench was one of, if not the, pioneer in rare earth magnets, and their use in various applications, including military. Here are links to articles about it in two websites that are on opposite sides of the political spectrum. Anything that the Heritage Foundation and DailyKos agree on is definitely worth considering.
A common mode of thought for them is that the US must be protected from all enemies, forign and domestic - and that 'domestic' includes members of congress who support 'un-American' ideas.
It became necessary to destroy the country to save it.
They are spying on ALL OF US! EVERYONE! Yes yes that includes you mister important congressman...
They are also probably spying on the president, cabinet officials, etc., just like old J. Edgar used to do. It'd be easy for the NSA, since they're also involved in providing secure communications for the president, et al.
Slashdot Mirror
You best get used to the idea. The next century belongs to china.
Funny, that's the same thing they said about Japan in the 80's.
It's tough to make predictions - especially about the future.
It's not so hard ... When you have a very relaxed attitude towards human rights and don't believe in (social) equality.
True as that criticism about China is, what does it have to do with R&D spending?
For example they can not bow to American pressure to make their currency unatractive like Japan did and end up with lost decades.
In other words, it's ok for China to be mercantilist and keep their currency artificially low, but wrong for the US to object to it.
As for "bow[ing] to American pressure", would that include the US threatening to impose tariffs and quotas on Chinese imports? As a sovereign country the US can do that. Don't bother giving me any nonsense about "violation of international agreements", because China has been in such blatant violation of so many agreements for so long that it's laughable.
You're also completely wrong about what caused Japan's lost decade(s). It was caused by a collapse of stock and real estate bubbles. It's similar to what happened here more recently, except that fortunately for us, they didn't happen at the same time. And as absurd as our real estate bubble was, it was nothing compared to Japan's. It got so ridiculous that the valuation of the grounds of the Imperial Palace was higher than for the entire state of California.
Spain, Ireland and a few others were considered models of economic growth and probity before the Lesser Depression. Now of course they're considered "irresponsible" by the same people that lauded them before. Greece is a different story, but put that one aside because it's so different than the others and their economy is so small that it's not of great importance to the EU. Comparing Greece and Spain is absurd.
Germany, despite its other virtues, is a mercantilist country. No wonder they embraced the Euro. Otherwise when the economies of other European countries went south (more than Germany's) the exchange rates of those countries' currencies would have dropped and Germany would have lost much of their current advantage.
Really? Why?
Because Japan's economic growth after WWII did depend heavily on inexpensive knock-off copies. That only changed several decades after WWII, when their economy had reached a higher level.
There are also important difference between Japan and China though. Japan heavily emphasized quality. The Deming prize for improved quality is awarded in Japan, and it's quite prestigious. Ironically it's named for W. Edwards Deming - an American. He had some excellent ideas for quality improvement that the Japanese took very seriously. Unfortunately many American manufacturers didn't (especially car companies).
Another difference is that Japan always discouraged foreign direct investment.
The TFA refers to percent of GDP, which is meaningless.
No, it's not. A high proportion of R&D costs is labor. Because of the difference in salaries between different countries, %/GDP matters more than absolute numbers.
Didn't you see that it could be used for taxes? We'll have half a hundred teabaggers piling on before you can say Ayn Rand.
Thus showing that math is a Statist conspiracy.
the second it hits the East Coast, everyone loses their shit and the weather services start screaming about wind chill
I wasn't aware that Minnesota, Wisconsin and Illinois were on the East Coast.
The heritage piece was an opportunist hatchet job to discredit all democratic presidential candidates
That must explain their crediting Hillary Clinton with having raised a legitimate concern, and their incredibly partisan conclusion that "it is not clear from the record that either Republicans or the Democrats, Bushes or Clintons, have the intestinal fortitude to take the steps necessary to monitor problematic foreign investment in America's high-technology manufacturing sectors".
Kos is so vague that I would argue it is wrong, and clearly given the date a pro-Obama job.
Yes, they're guilty of making incredibly vague statements like "in 1995 The Clinton Administration approved the sale of an Indiana company that made guidence systems for smart bombs to a Chinese led consortium". How could you even attempt to verify that?
I see editorial opportunism in both
Yes, citing facts to bolster an opinion is clearly opportunism.
So what is the point? Are they both right?
That wouldn't be surprising\, given that they both mention the same facts and concerns.
Who is overgeneralizing? The US has been actively engaged in pressuring, subverting, or overthrowing governments around the world
You're still the one overgeneralizing. In pursuit of making one point that suits your purposes, you're ignoring the complexities and inconsistencies of history. While the US has been guilty many times, there are many times where it hasn't. For example, have you noticed that Japan became an independent country after one of history's most benign occupations?
promote our own agendas since shortly after we joined The Great War a century ago
After the Great War the US actually became more isolationist. The examples you're looking for pre-date WWI and post-date WWII. It's important to know the "details" of history, lest one make inaccurate inferences and generalizations.
Or do you suppose Australia signed on to the extremist US copyright treaties because they thought it was such a good idea for their nation?
And what do you think the US would have done if Australia hadn't agreed to that? China is Australia's biggest export market, and Australia is one of the few countries the US runs a trade surplus with. Just because many Australians don't like the policy, doesn't mean the Australian government is opposed. Or do you think there aren't policies opposed by Americans that the American government happily adopts?
obviously the small nations surrounding China are allied with the US out of fear of China, especially those affected by China's openly declared intent to reclaim regions that were once part of the empire
It's even worse than that. They're trying to claim places that were only ever part of the Chinese Empire in fantasyland. If they ever get more serious about reclaiming their ancient empire, it will include Vietnam. They already control Tibet, and have made some scary noises about diverting the flow of rivers that are essential to India and Southeast Asia. Where do you think India's and Southeast Asia's hostility towards China comes from?
how long do you suppose a Cold War alliance between Canada and the Soviet Union would have gone unchallenged by the US?
How long do you suppose a split of Europe between the Eastern and Western blocks would have gone unchallenged? Yet, despite all the defenses and posturing, it remained a cold war for over 40 years. Neither the US nor the USSR was crazy or egotistical enough to change that. Let's hope the same is true of China.
Whatever the reason for the demise of the Avro Arrow, I doubt it would have kept Canada from selling titanium to the US. The US has been Canada's largest trade partner for decades, and last I checked NORAD is a joint US-Canadian operation. Canada also buys US aircraft.
I mean your older posts ...
Your older posts are all over the place, judging by the ones from "Anonymous Coward". If you want to debate, why don't you get a name here instead of hiding behind anonymity?
You have a hard on for hating on China today don't ya? I mean your older posts were also filled with Asia-hate
Do you know the difference between China and Asia? Talk about racist. I guess they're all the same to you.
racists gonna race
Assuming that you've now learned the difference between China and Asia, racist would be bashing East Asians, not China. And if I had concerns about Russia, would you accuse me of being racist against white people?
Moreover, where have I displayed any hatred towards the Chinese people or their cultures? Oh, that's right, nowhere. But if you don't have a valid criticism, you can always fall back on the race card. Some unthinking people might even buy into it.
Lastly, as should be obvious to any thinking person who has read my posts, my concern is with the policies of the Chinese government. Even those are concerns about a potential adversary. Where have I been "hateful"?
Of course that would likely start a trade war with China, which we can ill afford.
Start a trade war? We've been in a trade war with China for many years, but only one side has been fighting it. As for who would be hurt worse if we started fighting back, it would be China. It would mean the loss of a major market for them, but we would benefit from bringing back some of our manufacturing and R&D. It's been sold out for the short term benefit of a small group of people that does not include you and me. I don't think we should try and make low end products in the US though, but there are lots of countries we can buy cheap garbage from.
Take control from who? A handful of neighbors that they've been at odds with forever?
Yes.
Or from some other superpower that tries to exert authority over everything not absolutely locked down as belonging to someone else
Don't overgeneralize - we're not talking about Iraq here. Those islands belong to various countries in East Asia and the surrounding waters. Yes, most of them are US allies, but they're becoming more strongly allied with the US because they're afraid of China. Vietnam an ally? Fact is stranger than fiction. The Philippines making contingency plans to let us return to Clark AFB and Subic Bay (bases that we left in an entirely peaceful way at the request of the Philippine government). Yeah, they're more concerned about China than the US - and with good reason.
they are only a manufacturer that takes rare earths as an input ... What we need is a domestic supply of RE ores.
We need both. Oddly, we used to have both. Then we decided to sell the country at fire sale prices. Have you seen a check for your cut of the proceeds of that sale?
If you think the magnet thing is bad, how do you feel about G.E. to Share Jet Technology With China in New Joint Venture? No dual use there, right? An easy field to develop expertise in, right? Which explains why the three major Western jet engine manufacturers (GE, Pratt-Whitney and Rolls-Royce), have been in control of the field since WWII. This is not something you figure out overnight. It's also no secret that jet engines are the biggest obstacle to developing "all Chinese" fighters.
Someone using the term "Slashdot-tards" complaining about "hate filled rhetoric"? Since you read carefully, I presume you're familiar with irony.
Hello Milo. I didn't realize you posted on Slashdot, Lt. Minderbinder.
Taiwan wouldn't be quite so bad - at least they're a US ally.
After the war of 1812 it became clear to Britian that the US was becoming a major force.
Hardly. The US military was still a joke compared to the UK's. The miracle is that we fought the War of 1812 to a draw instead of going back to being a British colony. Much of that was due to the fact that the UK was tied up in the Napoleonic Wars at the time. The War of 1812 was an all consuming war for the US, and a sideshow for the UK.
Over the ensuing decades Britian spent a lot of effort to contain us militarily.
Examples?
Out of temporary necessity, the titanium was bought through third parties without the USSR knowing what it was being used for. The supply situation was also rectified ASAP.
we're talking about magnets here
And magnets are unimportant? If you think so, you aren't familiar with their importance.
You can't do much spying with a piece of metal.
You can't do much spying with just a piece of glass either, yet lots of spy technology uses very sophisticated lenses. Just the tech for making certain types of optical glass, let alone turning it into lenses, is very sophisticated stuff.
China already has a near monopoly on rare earth materials
Because we let them have a near monopoly. There are deposits of rare earth metals in the US and other countries besides China. China has even played games with prohibiting the export of rare earths (in direct violation of trade agreements, but nobody ever calls China on that anyway).
The good thing to do would be to try to plan ahead and develop internal facilities so that eventually it's roughly breaking even to use US magnets instead.
Even better would have been not to have sold Magnequench to China in the first place.
Wasn't it a clever idea to let Magnaquench be sold to China? For those unfamiliar with it Magnaquench was one of, if not the, pioneer in rare earth magnets, and their use in various applications, including military. Here are links to articles about it in two websites that are on opposite sides of the political spectrum. Anything that the Heritage Foundation and DailyKos agree on is definitely worth considering.
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/05/magnequench-cfius-and-chinas-thirst-for-us-defense-technology
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/05/03/508203/-Magnaquench-160-Weapon-technology-with-a-bow-on-it
A common mode of thought for them is that the US must be protected from all enemies, forign and domestic - and that 'domestic' includes members of congress who support 'un-American' ideas.
It became necessary to destroy the country to save it.
They are spying on ALL OF US! EVERYONE! Yes yes that includes you mister important congressman...
They are also probably spying on the president, cabinet officials, etc., just like old J. Edgar used to do. It'd be easy for the NSA, since they're also involved in providing secure communications for the president, et al.