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Senator Bernie Sanders Asks NSA If Agency Is Spying On Congress
cold fjord writes with this excerpt from Fox News: "A U.S. senator on Friday pressed the National Security Agency on whether its controversial spying practices extend to monitoring members of Congress. 'Has the NSA spied, or is the NSA currently spying, on members of Congress or other American elected officials?' Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., asked in a letter to NSA Director Gen. Keith Alexander released from the senator's office. Sanders, a self-described 'democratic socialist,' defines spying as monitoring the phone calls, emails and internet traffic of elected officials."
The NSA has already shown a willingness to lie to Congress, what does he expect? They're an equal opportunity usurper.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Sorry, chum, your post is showing up as the first one for me. Better luck next time!
It's for their protection. Don't the congressmen need to be safe like the rest of us?
We don't spy on you, Bernie, since you're a 'useful idiot' who votes along Obama's party line. Republican members of Congress, however, are fair game.
now that HE might be being spied on he suddenly cares?
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
in Federal court, no less.
I mean if they are "exempt" from being spied on it seems logical the "terrorists" would become members of congress and avoid being spied on.
"You nothing to worry about if you have nothing to hide".
We here this all the time.
Tell that to the NSA.
YES they are spying on congress.
NO they wont admit it.
Does the NSA claim to "filter out" senators, house representatives, judges, white house staff, political organizers, lawyers, bankers, and anyone else powerful enough to be annoying?
Are we really supposed to believe in such a "WHITELIST", and if so, are we supposed to not be PISSED OFF they we aren't important enough to be on that list?
The level of bullshit is TOO DAMN HIGH.
NSA: No
Reality: "censored" (reducted) due to harming security
People's thoughts: 50% true, 50% BS
Result: Nothing happens, business as usual
Don't you mean won't more terrorists become members of congress?
I've debated many 'True Patriots' before. The type of mindset that the NSA probably attracts. A common mode of thought for them is that the US must be protected from all enemies, forign and domestic - and that 'domestic' includes members of congress who support 'un-American' ideas. Democracy is too important to be entrusted to a democratic process.
And if so I hope they either:
a. Admit it.
b. Deny it then get caught lying about it.
Either way the fallout would be both spectacular and likely productive from a citizen standpoint. If either a or b happens and it gets swept under the rug, then at least we can be certain that the United States is no longer run by the United States government. Sometimes I wonder if I will one day be answering the question, "Where were you when the Constitution and Bill of Rights were permanently suspended?"
Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
those wily communists are hiding in plain sight, in every branch of our lives! Why, in this very envelope, I have 47 members of the Communist PArty in our own State Department!!!!
More seriously, Congress is often communicating with foreign nationals about politics nad business, so *of course* the NSA is monitoring those communicaitons automatically.
At the very least, blanket metadata capture means the answer is absolutely, positively, unrepentantly YES.
"Oh no... he found the
He's going to get a scripted statement starting with "we do not directly"..
They are spying on ALL OF US! EVERYONE! Yes yes that includes you mister important congressman... Oh but don't worry! They're only collecting metadata!
So it's ok... And even if it's not ok. You'll give them the ok because you already gave them the ok with your secret court shit!
Welcome to the masses. You are just another target to the NSA...
Gotta make sure those congress members are not terrorists after all. They could do alot of damage to our country!
Nuf said.
Privacy is terrorism.
You're doing it wrong
One of the things Bernie did worth noting is clearly stating what he means as spying:
Part of me thinks he has evidence of them engaging in something like that, much like Wyden asking Clapper about the wholesale collection effort. But with the clarification, and coming in written form, it makes a 'Not Wittingly' answer less liely (granted, Wyden did forewarm Clapper of the question, and did give his office time to change their answer afterwards).
Does the NSA have information on all the kickbacks Congress is getting?
By exempting themselves from mandatory law driven programs like the Affordable Care Act, surely spying could never apply to them. Right?
They are exempt because none of them are smart enough to navigate the website.
If you're going to give this idiotic organization an unlimited budget with zero oversight you reap what you sow.
Based on what I've been reading, the dragnet collection system collects as much as it can - and then sorts it out later.
So I would argue that some Congressional conversations have been swept into the Big Brother, weather intentional or not.
You haven't done anything bad Mr senator, so you got nothing to hide, right?
Being an official doesn't include magical pixie dust that makes one unable for a treason. For some fine jolly chaps that should have been spied upon, think about Benedict Arnold (a general), Robert Hanssen (G-man) and Aaron Burr (a vice president).
What would be the advantage an unconstitutional spy organisation would have if it possessed informational leverage over a nation's legislators?
This advantage is far from unprecedented, even in the States. Perhaps J. Edgar tended only to collect information on persons of interest instead of everyone, but he'd have used the interwebs if they were available to him.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
Socialist says it all.. --> Of course the NSA spies on commies.
The juxtaposition of your subject and comment says it all
'nuff sad
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
After all, these politicians are well within the "three jumps" connecting them terrorists. Heck, they spend all day in meetings ABOUT terrorists!
Congress will just make themselves immune - all done behind closed doors, of course.
If anyone has anything to hide, it's a Congressman.
They all have affairs, molest small children, do illegal drugs, have homosexual encounters, accept "favors" and "gifts" from lobbyists and *gasp* do not attend church as they say they do.
In an ideal system, the NSA would be by law required to wiretap all public officials and directly publish their communications to the Library of Congress with a daily transcript of "dirty conversations" sent to the FBI and appropriate OIG for human analysis. Given how Congress operates these days, and how successful they've been at pushing back on FBI attempts (post ABSCAM) to reign in congressional corruption, part of me while deeply opposed to what the NSA has been caught doing wants to see the NSA ordered to go Stasi on them.
It seems that this answer to this is a resounding "yes".
The internal logic seems to go something like this-
We are the NSA (true).
We are essential to the defense of this nation (true).
We are the subject matter experts on what it takes to perform this necessary function (true).
People who don't know what we know and who lack our accumulated organizational knowledge as a consequence can't understand the world as it needs to be understood in order for us to be effective.(true)
Any decision we've made with respect to how we should conduct ourselves and any action we've taken is because we think it will best serve the needs of this national security needs of this nation (true).
Conclusion- we would do no wrong and have done no wrong no matter what we've done and any oversight by an entity outside ourselves, including (and especially) politicians or any event which,if made public, would diminish our stature, decrease our funding or increase oversight is a mortal threat (is there any other kind!!?) to the national security of this nation and deserves to be dealt with accordingly by us, without exception (false!)
This is the logic of the computer Hal 9000 in Kubrik's 2001, A Space Odyssey .
Of course we don't spy on Congress. The mere notion would be preposterous. And Bernie, how about that cute 20-something uninhibited hippie chick you have in Bennington that your wife doesn't know about?
I am officially gone from
They promise. *giggle*
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
Multiple questions never work when you deal with spooks. If the answer to any part of the question is no, then they will simply answer no.
It can be very annoying when you work with spooks. They will look you carefully in the eyes, consider what you asked and and after a few seconds answer with a one liner, that never actually tells you anything.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
More importantly, why is a member of Congress more important that I am? So it is bad to spy on me but REALLY BAD to spy on someone just because they are elected? Fucking elitism at its finest.
Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
Maybe we can have FBI agents spying on CIA... CIA spying on NSA and NSA spying on FBI
It assumes that being a senator should have a benefits. They are supposed to be representing their constituents, not gathering special privileges for themselves. If they are not living in the system they are creating, all hope is lost. So, anyone still hopeful?
A member of Congress or the Senate on a day to day basis will deal with 100x the sensitive material you will. Furthermore there's the question of who gets access to the records & can they abuse it to blackmail govt. officials or otherwise effect policy decisions.
So yes you are not a special snowflake.
You're holding it wrong.
The NSA isn't spying on them to get that information. My point still stands, the NSA shouldn't be spying on anyone without a valid warrant signed by a judge, just as the constitution clearly states. That they are elected doesn't make them better than you or I, and their outrage should be the same regardless of who is being spied upon without a warrant.
Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
People with power in the government need to be considered differently, because the power that they hold can be corrupted through blackmail.
If Harry Reid is caught with sucking the toe of his dominitrix, he could be blackmailed into telling the truth about something. If you are caught, at best they can embarrass you in front of your friends, acquaintances, and family.
A long time ago when I was in the military, I found out about a little tidbit of information. You see, sometimes congressmen go on "official trips" and they are reimbursed in full for all expenses they incur related to that trip. And sometimes, said congressmen are accompanied by members of the military. Well, the military members were not reimbursed for all their expenses and had to pay out of pocket for some items. Well, the congressmen saw the military members spending money above and beyond what they would have if they weren't on the trip and thought that was unfair. So a new law was passed. And now the military members are reimbursed in full ... provided they're on a TDY escorting congressmen.....Mind, the members of the military go on many TDY assignments and escorting congressmen is just one of them. But only TDY assignments for escorting congressmen are reimbursed in full.
And that question seems to have the context of "It's OK to spy on the general public. But it's not OK to spy on congressmen".Somewhat like the many laws we have on the books that specifically exclude congressmen.
He might want to ask Edward Snowden. If he really wants to know.
SLOWER TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT
So yes, spying on anyone without a warrant is bad, but spying on government officials is worse.
What, you think you're better than the rest of us or something? NSA should spy on us but not in congressmen?
How could someone be both a terrorist and a member of Congress? One of them has nothing but contempt and hatred for the values of the US and wants to sabotage the nation's prosperity and standing in the world while using fear to manipulate its citizens for their own political ends and actively works to undermine fundamental constitutional principles. The other engages in terrorism.
As the British journalist Claud Cockburn famously put it, "Believe nothing until it has been officially denied." We need those responsible to testify under oath on public record. We need their exact words. We need to hear how they deliberately mislead the public and congress with semantic games and outright lies... caught it the act, as it were.
But then our political leaders do the exact same thing all the time and usually get away with it too. So much for exemplary leadership and governance. I think Armando Iannucci "gets it" better than any comedian at the moment. Check out "The Thick of It" (UK TV show), "In The Loop" (film), and "Veep" (US TV show).
possibly last of his kind & he tells the truth
Senator, I am sorry, your question doesn't make sense. The NSA doesn't do any spying on Americans, we just collect meta-data about your computer, phone, and US mail. We also control the worlds largest bot-net that screws with peoples computers to allow us to collect even more meta-data. As we have stated previously, meta-data is NOT data and all of our hacking is done from outside the US so it is perfectly legal. Thank you Senator for ill framed question.
More importantly, why is a member of Congress more important that I am? So it is bad to spy on me but REALLY BAD to spy on someone just because they are elected? Fucking elitism at its finest.
Because he has more power and influence. That's what important means.
Sanders has probably met the president. The president has probably met foreign leaders. That means that Sanders is two hops away from foreign leaders, which makes him a valid target as far as the NSA is concerned.
According to the FISA courts, all warrants are valid by virtue of having been issued by the government for an alleged national security purpose.
He should have asked:
"Have you stopped spying on Congress?"
Senator Dianne Feinstein was a target during the Bush administration warrantless surveillance program, along with Barack Obama before he was even elected to the Senate back in 2003-2004. NSA Whistleblower Russell Tice came out with those new revelations and information on more black ops abuses June 2013. He also claims they were targeting people with space weapons and satellites, which is the NSA's speciality anyway..
Details can be siphoned through here: http://www.oregonstatehospital.net/d/russelltice-nsarnmebl.html
And the NSA's response was:
"Uh... nooooooo?"
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
I assume this is clear- he's trying ot entrap them, as when Wyden forced Clapper to lie. Wyden KNEW the truthful answer to his question already, he was just forcing Clapper to lie before Congress.\
Same thing here, for sure . We can take from this that the NSA spies on Congress. Snowden has a story about it spying on Obama when he was a senator. Maybe a leak is coming about this and the Senators are preparing the ground ...
Yes, let the NSA spy on Congressweasels, but only if their findings are made public. I want to know who my "representatives" have been meeting with, what was said, and why they're really going to vote a certain way.
OTOH this still runs into a who-watches-the-watchers problem, because how do we know that NSA will release everything and not hold back to get a vote to go a certain way? Hmm.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
The NSA isn't spying on them to get that information.
And you know that how? As Daemonik noted, even if they get important information by accident rather than intent, it doesn't mean that they can't use that to influence legislation for the benefit of themselves and clients.
If this turns out to be a set up question for another Snowden release (like when German Chancellor Merkel called President Obama to ask whether the NSA had been spying on her only to have Snowden release that very information within a couple of days), it won't look good for the NSA.
Lol... Land of the free, you say. Equality and freedom for all! Equal under the eyes of the law.
The sooner you realize it's all bullshit and that you have a ruling class, the sooner we'll get away from this nasty statist form of governance.
And if not, why not?
We have pledged to oppose all enemies of the United States, foreign and domestic. First and foremost, that's you and your associates, Bernie.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
I predict that once the NSA lies to Congress about gathering "intelligence" from Congress Snowden will release the truth that the NSA has been tapping the phones of Congress. Then Obama will have no choice but to pardon Snowden.
Why is the drug trade still booming, and insider trading, organised crime still operating? You would think if this universal monitoring is happening and is effective the police would be far more effective than they actually are.
This ladies and gentlemen is Enemy of the State (1998) moment. Straw that could break camels back. Realization that a tool you used to fight your enemies suddenly has more power than you.
http://youtu.be/sg8T1zKKrXM?t=1h46m39s
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
as if the NSA would filter out congress.
as if congress does understand reality....
People with power in the government need to be considered differently...
That's right. Every one of them should have a Sword of Damocles hanging over their heads. If we have a right to spy on anyone, it would be those in positions of power. Authority should always be treated in an adversarial manner.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
I think the Bernie's intention was to make congress aware that the very laws they were passing also allowed their own rights to be lessened. I would bet that the NSA and others spy more on members of congress and the judiciary than they do of almost all other citizens. For example a corrupted or coerced judge could easily keep a serious terrorist from being convicted. These judges could even over ride a jury and declare a person not guilty locking them out of any future trials. Some of the too big to fail boys may have owned quite a few people in the legal channels.
Then there's a chance, admittedly very small, that congress might actually do the right thing and put some restraints on them. (More likely, they just make it illegal to spy on congress but everybody else is ok.)
Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
Have gnu, will travel.
a) Nobody knows exactly what information the NSA collects.
According the the NSA the NSA doesn't even know exactly what data they are collecting on anyone.
For example a corrupted or coerced judge could easily keep a serious terrorist from being convicted.
You're living in fantasy land.
To a first approximation there are no terrorists.
A corrupt judge that the NSA has the drop on could be used to convict anyone they want to convict.
While it is not likely these are good people, officials in these government positions are TRAPPED by their jobs.
If they do the right thing, they end up in the same position as Snowden with the whole corrupt powerful establishment against them (plus the suckers) and if they serve the establishment (where they have a successful history) then they go on public record as liars. As far as legal consequences, almost nothing happens to them for lying to congress; in addition, that can be greatly mitigated by telling the truth in secret hearings... so they are technically not lying to congress (just most of congress, in public.)
It is grandstanding but mostly it's political posturing by Sanders, so later the public will see them as liars who can't be trusted with the power they have taken (arguably given.)
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
I mean if they are "exempt" from being spied on it seems logical the "terrorists" would become members of congress and avoid being spied on.
So you watched Homeland too?
at least him, that is. and he is a socialist, so he is definitely an enemy of the state. funny how fifth columnists always think patriots are fifth columnists. lets just call the NSA the "NASI", sort of a combination of nazi and stasi.
The source link may not be so great, it does bring up a lot of true information that can be confirmed elsewhere. There are other leakers who have given us HUGE leaks over the years that have not gotten enough attention or people simply forgot
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
[Russel Tice] also claims they were targeting people with space weapons and satellites, which is the NSA's speciality anyway..
Details can be siphoned through here: http://www.oregonstatehospital.net/d/russelltice-nsarnmebl.html
Space Weapons?
Follow the link - this is grade-A madness.
(Or a NSA disinformation campaign to make all whistleblowers look like kooks).
Obviously members of congress are more important.....to themselves.
Just like you care mainly about yourself in your comment.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Obviously, congresscritters have access and power over things that matter in this country (even if recent history says they don't act on it). Your email from your ex claiming you don't know how to emotionally get involved or your daily email from groupon aren't at all interesting, even in the aggregate.
Sensitive material should never be discussed on the phone or via email. The internet is an unclassified communications medium. If you want/need to handle classified materials you offline encrypt and send that.
More importantly, why is a member of Congress more important that I am? So it is bad to spy on me but REALLY BAD to spy on someone just because they are elected? Fucking elitism at its finest.
This isn't elitism - that's stuff like free primo parking spaces at the DC airport. This is about compromising their job. They are our representatives. When the NSA spies on one of them, they are spying on all of their constituents and undermining the most fundamental American value - democracy.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
You need to have your head examined. You're a complete freak. You would benefit by taking antipsychotic durgs. It's too bad Chlorpromazine is no longer used, it has your name written all over it. Perhaps Clozaril, Zyprexa, Risperdal, or Abilify. Or ALL of them.
You need help, Todd.
...isn't congress (supposed to be) made up of regular ordinary US citizens? Hasn't a federal judge ruled that the NSA's spying techniques are legal? So what's the news here?
Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
According the the NSA the NSA doesn't even know exactly what data they are collecting on anyone.
Well, then maybe they should spy on themselves once in a while?
"Has the NSA spied, or is the NSA currently spying, on members of Congress ..."
Answer:
"Do you REALLY want to know the answer to that, Mr 'KinkyDrawers'?"
All laws will apply to everyone equally.
Sounds like you disagree with that and think it should be ignored. Care to guess who else thought it was a bad idea as well? Democrats that thoguht blacks shouldn't be allowed to vote after the Civil war.
More importantly, why is a member of Congress more important that I am?
While I tend to agree with that sentiment in principal, illegal spying on people of power is in fact a huge problem for all of us...having "dirt" on everyone was a big part of what kept an insane fucking megalomaniac like J. Edgar Hoover in a position of unspeakable power for so long. We sure don't need more of that.
The next Snowden release will probably show proof of NSA spying on congress. Mainly if the NSA says, "No, we don't spy on congress"
Be seeing you...
"StrStr", you are unquestionably a complete nut-case . You're clearly off your meds. My guess (based on the two sites you habitually link to) is that you are this nutter "Todd Giffen" who runs those psycho web sites and spent some time in the Oregon Looney Bin. If I were to put money on a bet, I'd say you will probably spend more time in a psych ward in the future.
If the NSA are known liers... For me, all this is just for the show so they can have the appearance of doing something. What we need is a public investigation, we can elect someone trustworthy that will be immuned to NSA blackmail to do the investigation.
No, Fox News. It's similar, but somewhat less realistic.
Some folks trust too much
Woe if one is a statesman
Shame on you, Vermont
The NSA isn't spying on them to get that information. My point still stands, the NSA shouldn't be spying on anyone without a valid warrant signed by a judge, just as the constitution clearly states. That they are elected doesn't make them better than you or I, and their outrage should be the same regardless of who is being spied upon without a warrant.
the NSA shouldn't be spying on anyone domestically without a valid warrant signed by a judge, just as the constitution clearly states.
FTFY... NSA is US DOD, it is also use of military force on the people.
Slashdot readers have a right to "full disclosure" about this lunatic's background. His psychotic ramblings should be seen within the context of his psychosis and the reader should understand that that he maintains a number of "hate speech" sites and a truly bizarre "attack" site dedicated to "hate speech" about the medical institution which he was committed to after a "psychotic break".
In past positions of gainful employment where I was required to have some knowledge of "classified" information, and had to deal with congress critters, I found the vast majority of them to be deliberately ignorant fools. They base their entire political existence on the process of 'plausible deniability' implemented by the US Navy before WW1, and perfected in WW2. Congress Critters make their "cleared" staffers read the documents and write unclassified summaries so that the CC never has to be responsible to those whom they are supposed to represent. I was explicitly told to NEVER EVER talk or correspond directly with any CC under ANY circumstances, all communication was required to have a handler in the CC office staff.
There are a FEW exceptions, but for the most part, they are lawyers and paralegals who can not understand anything more complicated that 2 + 2 still = 4. 0010 + 0010 = 0100 makes their heads explode.
Typically not because they are supposed to set policy not run operations. Nearly all of what they deal with is information that can be obtained by the public at short notice, and most of the rest is obtainable after a time.
So many of the readers here who deal with trade secrets, confidential financial information, business plans, operational military matters or medical information are special snowflakes in comparison.
These elected officials are not a nobility to be bowed to but citizens doing a job. Imbuing them with the mystique of hereditary aristocrats ruling by divine right is stepping back a few centuries.
In a Guardian chat Snowden said:
"This is the precise reason that NSA provides Congress with a special immunity to its surveillance."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/17/edward-snowden-nsa-files-whistleblower
1.) If the NSA says they have done this, it may make some politicians angry because
ostensibly they were given a pass, but lied to.
2.) If the NSA says they haven't, it will highlight the fact that some people (the politicians
passing the surveillance laws and in charge of oversight) are exempt from blanket surveillance.
Final question from Glenn Greenwald:
Anything else you’d like to add?
Answer:
Thanks to everyone for their support, and remember that just because you are not the target of a surveillance program does not make it okay. The US Person / foreigner distinction is not a reasonable substitute for individualized suspicion, and is only applied to improve support for the program. This is the precise reason that NSA provides Congress with a special immunity to its surveillance.
Like, the ass wipe thinks "he" deserves an answer. When he is receiving DoD campaign funds. Well, maybe a drone up his gay ass will be answer enough.
Or did another/other member(s) of Congress put it into his head out of fear that Congress' insider trading, graft, legislation-written-directly-by-special-interests, and so on is actually all on NSA hard drives somewhere?
Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
To a first approximation there are no terrorists.
Not really. It depends on where you are.
Al-Qaeda-linked force captures Fallujah amid rise in violence in Iraq
Terrorists are not static, and can move from country to country. It is common for terrorists in one country to be part of a plan to attack another country. One of the terrorist cells that attacked the US on 9/11 was from Frankfurt, Germany. Al Qaida eventually ended up fleeing Iraq back around 2007-2009 due to the effectiveness of US forces in combating them. One of the places they fled was Afghanistan, which is why it heated up again so much. Now they are concentrating in Syria, and moving into Iraq again with ugly results.
You should also recognize that many people have been arrested and convicted of terrorism related offenses in the US, Canada, and Europe since 9/11. There have been hundreds in the US alone.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
You can make reasonable inferences about what they collect based on the size of the data centers they are buying to store the stuff they collect. Based on how much storage capacity they are buying, it is reasonable to assume they collect absolutely everything that crosses a wire, at least at any point of ingress into the North American telco's and internet. What no one knows right now is what agents are actually reading, who they are giving the data to after that, and how long they store what they collect. Based on what I've read; their goal is to be able to go in after a terrorist event and essentially rewind the global telecommunications network to a point in time and conduct their analysis based from there. They've argued before that their human intelligence isn't good enough to know who to spy on before the fact, so they collect everything on everyone on a time-delay.
says the Greek witch doctor from Aliquippa, Pennsylvania..
According to the FISA courts, all warrants are valid by virtue of having been issued by the government for an alleged national security purpose.
The constitution specifically says and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
You just explained the entire existence of the tea party.
NSA is US DOD, it is also use of military force on the people.
If you're referring to Posse Comitatus, we can all drop to our knees and be eternally grateful that the N.D.A.A. got rid of that. Sad but true.
(captcha: custody)
I mean if they are "exempt" from being spied on it seems logical the "terrorists" would become members of congress and avoid being spied on.
Not only that... if the terrorists become congress members... they can effect legal terrorism against the American people: for example, passing destructive laws, such as massive tax increases, banning consumer products, or conduct economically crippling activities such as getting the minimum wage increased, and instituting catastrophic healthcare laws.
To a first approximation there are no terrorists.
You should also recognize that many people have been arrested and convicted of terrorism related offenses in the US, Canada, and Europe since 9/11. There have been hundreds in the US alone.
My point exactly.
I'm going to have to agree with the other guy
If 1 in 40,000 NSA abuses is nothing to worry about, why do we care if 'hundreds' out of hundreds of millions are 'terrorists' ?
Let's see.. answering "yes" gets them in the doghouse, pronto... answering "bo" gets then a federal contempt charge... Yup.. Doghouse, as any husband will tell you, anyday ;-)
A fair question. You have to look at the potential harm. The 1/40,000/year LOVEINT at NSA is, in the grander scheme of things, a relatively limited privacy invasion. There aren't any reports of actual identity theft, or other more serious harm, for example. On the other hand, there have been quite a number of terrorist plots that could have killed or wounded hundreds or even thousands per attack. The Boston Marathon attack was a minor plot and it cost about 17 people their limbs, killed others, and wounded many more. It was a significant disruption to a major cultural event for the city, and disruptive overall. You only have to look at the recent Volgograd attacks for another example, and even those were far smaller than a number of plots in the US. Just last month there was an attempted suicide car bomb attack at an airport in Kansas. That could have easily killed a hundred or more people. That really isn't the same sneaking a look at someone's love letter. Another thing to keep in mind is that a string of "successful" attacks would serve as a recruiting tool, and there would be more people volunteering for such attacks.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
I'm convinced Obama has used the services of the NSA to find out where individual congressmen stand on different issues. This is a violation of the separation of powers.
*Gas prices continue to soar* ... Nopes!
Congress: Hey big oil, are you price gouging?
Big Oil:
*Gas prices go down a little*
Congress: Ok, glad that's cleared up!
*Gas prices go higher than ever*
Sort of like plane crashes then? Should airlines stop taking measures against those?
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Sort of like plane crashes then? Should airlines stop taking measures against those?
The way we deal with plane crashes is by finding out what went wrong and taking measures to avoid the same problem in the future.
The way we deal with "terrorists" is by having FBI agents giving people marzipan and then arresting them for bomb plots.
If you can't see the difference you're an idiot.
(Ah, I'm replying to cold fjord - who's the idiot),
The accusations by members of the press and social media are baseless and unacceptable. Folks posting replies to this article have no clue what they are taking about.
gosgog:
Sounds to me like a Damn Good idea, If they're not they sure as hell should. The Voting Public should be fully allowed to know who currently in power is BAAD! So they can be replaced.
It does not matter WHO says the truth or if they are wrong 99% of the time.
One shouldn't brainlessly discredit a source simply because you don't like something they said and reliable sources you do like shouldn't be mindlessly believed either.
The benefit of people who are extreme or go beyond what you and I consider "reasonable" is that they are usually quite MOTIVATED to do a lot of the labor for you. Their conclusions could be insane but their labor doesn't have to be entirely useless all that supporting evidence could be solid or just 1 or 2 items flawed (it's the end conclusions where the big errors happen.) I saw plenty of good information gathered by the author of that one webpage (the rest the site has some crazy shit) and while it builds towards some nutty sounding stuff but that doesn't discredit the collection of former NSA agent's interviews or related Daily Show clips etc.
Sure some claims are beyond reasonable or even mentally "off balance" but it is still a relative judgement call for ignorant people listening to something they don't want to believe. Remember all the cranks saying upsetting things about the CIA, NSA, State Dept, Iraq war, Echelon, "detainee" "abuse", corruption, etc? Turns out they were correct... some were wrong about most everything else and others were 100% correct the whole time - but we treat both with no respect and lump them together... instead we trust our news media who got it all wrong up until it was undeniable. The cult of personality has a basis in irrational human behavior; don't fall into other forms of it.
This is especially important to note as that linked page focuses around NSA leaker Russell Tice who only had his word and reputation with zero hard evidence trying to stir up some real congressional oversight. The government smeared him and then people like yourself had an easy way out so you didn't have to consider the upsetting things he was saying. He was a "nut" so anything he said you didn't like was easily ignored... back 5+ years ago. Government is guilty until proven innocent; that precept is why we have term limits, separation of powers, democracy, a free press, free speech, etc.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
According to the FISA courts, all warrants are valid by virtue of having been issued by the government for an alleged national security purpose.
The constitution specifically says and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
None of the guys in DC care about an outdated document like that...what did our founders know about keeping us safe in this modernized world?
All I know is this:
If 'ol Bernie wasn't being spied on before (unlikely), he definitely is now.
Sounds like a round robin.....
Most of Congress does not care. At all. Bring up spying on Americans, they roll their eyes and go to lunch.
however, point out that they are *GASP* spying on Congress, and all the sudden that 3 martini lunch on top of your latest intern last week is a burning concern, and the NSA must be stopped!
Al Qaida eventually ended up fleeing Iraq back around 2007-2009 due to the effectiveness of US forces in combating them.
I'm no fan of Saddam but he ran a secular regime and despite what Fox news claims, he kept AQ out of Iraq throughout the 80's and 90's. So if you accept that the US rid Iraq of AQ then you must also accept that US were just fixing the "power vacuum" problem they caused. Probably on day three of the war when they sacked the entire Iraqi public service (cops, teachers, firemen, paramedics, etc) and allowed looters and anarchy to reign free the next day.
Personally I think the reason Fallujah was raped so harshly was because an angry mob killed some US soldiers and put their mutilated bodies on public display, it was a brazen and bloody act of defiance against the US. The entire city was subsequently punished to clearly demonstrate who is in control and the vengeance that will be delivered if you fuck with them, how that is morally different to Saddam "punishing the Kurds" is not clear to me.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.