why don't you give me your email address and we can continue this debate elsewhere? KDE has more applications that are further along, however, GNOME has a much stronger framework. ----
Am I the only one noticing increasing problems trying to keep GNOME-related software afloat?
There are pieces of Gnome software that are rather buggy, yes. There are pieces of KDE software that are rather buggy as well. Overall, my personal experience with October Gnome has been exceptionally good. That is to say, the core elements of Gnome are wonderfully stable at this point. And many of the peripheral Gnome Applications such as Gnumeric, GnomeICU (with the release of 0.90, this is easily the best ICQ clone available), x-chat (the latest development version is incredible), grip (how could I live without this application?), and others, are absolutely top-notch in terms of stability, functionality, and usability.
I just changed from Enlightenment to Sawmill. Now StarOffice crashes when I try to run it. (That's not the only change I've made, I've upgraded other things.)
This clearly has nothing to do with Gnome.:) Try looking elsewhere.
I think it's fairly obvious where the bias is here. Read your statement and think about what you are saying. First of all, I have looked at the/. stories related to Gnome and KDE. As a general rule when there is a newsworthy story related to either project, and it is submitted, it gets posted. As I look at the KDE news page, and the Gnome news page, then look at the stories that have made it to/. regarding either, I see a very evenly distributed coverage. Not every gnome item submitted makes it to/. and not every KDE item submitted makes it. ----
Slashdot is not biased towards GNOME. When KDE went into the feature freeze, it was mentioned on/.. Incidentally, what does what the Linux Journal publishes have to do with what/. publishes? ----
Yes, the reason your post was marked flamebait was due to comments you made then and now bashing Miguel and the Gnome Project. I really think you underestimate Miguel's understanding. He wasn't just making a flippant remark about some "skin/theme" hack as you put it.
What I find absurd however, is how the GNOME team keeps putting forward *OBVIOUSLY INCOMPLETE* projects like they are 1.0 FCS versions ready to compete with mature implementations.
I think you misunderstood the spirit of the post Miguel made. Some of the newer Gnome technologies such as Bonobo and the Gnome Print Library were not being put forward as ready for prime time. The entire point was to say we're still working on them, they need some more hacking before we'll release them in a public manner.
Maybe the GNOME/Enlightenment guys should spend a little more time themselves on UI design, and less on "looks".
Work is being done to that effect with the Gnome User Interface Improvement Project. Some of the ideas they've come up with have already been implemented, others are still being hacked on. As for Enlightenment, I'm not sure. It's not part of Gnome proper. ----
I have to disagree. It is possible to begin with another's idea and work to "copy" it, but then enhance it. Would you categorize Linux as just a copy of Unix? I look at it this way: You see a good idea and think to yourself, "How could I implement this? Could I improve on it?" And as you implement it, new ideas come to you. It is very much an art form. And it is an art form that the Open Source community excels at. ----
What Miguel is missing is that Aqua is not about transparency, it's about Quartz, the Display-PDF rendering system. The NeXT display postscript system and Sun's NeWS could also handle alpha easily, but does anyone think that the only useful feature of Display Postscript or Quartz is being able to render alpha?
Miguel is intelligent enought to know we're not just talking about alpha channeling. He was saying that libart provided the necessary tools. In case you are unaware, libart is a library for high-performance 2D graphics. It is the antialiased rendering engine for the Gnome Canvas. It supports a powerful imaging model which is basically the same as SVG or Java2D. It does Vector Paths, Bezier Paths, RGB and RGBA images, Sorted Vector Paths, MicroTile Arrays, and Affine transformations.
The best innovations are built on the shoulders of others, and if Miguel would spend more time learning and stealing technology from Apple, Microsoft, and even the KDE team, and less time dismissing everything and trying to reinvent it, maybe GNOME wouldn't be so buggy and unusable.
This exact approach has been what Miguel has sought after. He is frequently quoted as wanting to take the best ideas from companies like Microsoft, get rid of the bad parts, and integrate them into Gnome. I've personally conversed with him about this exact issue while waiting to watch Phantom Menace on opening night. He says that he doesn't like it when everyone goes around saying Microsoft sucks and that's the end of the story. Microsoft, Apple, and others, have made great strides with their Desktop technologies, and Miguel has been borrowing from them, believe me. ----
The recent announcement of Apple included some very amazing screenshots of what they could do with their technology. I was impressed by it for the first two hours, until I realized how easy it would be for us to actually pull a hack like that.
Although the fully-transparent system can be done with little effort (as we have a very powerful infrastructure to achieve it: Raph Levien's libart) a lot of work has to go *first* into making GNOME easier to use, more intuitive and more easy for newcomers.
If you've seen the screenshot he is refering to that is a pretty impressive statement. Gnome is and is going to be an extremely advanced application framework. But as Miguel points out, there is much work that needs to be done now to make the Gnome Desktop ready to take the world by storm. And no matter who you are, there is something you can do to help. ----
Yes, and I've seen scientific arguments that a bumblebee should not be able to fly. But the fact is, it can fly, so any scientific "evidence" to the contrary is probably not taking other factors into account. ----
Huh? Have you actually used Redhat 6.1. KDE works great. You don't have to *do* anything to get it to work. Either install as a KDE workstation or do a regular install and select KDE as your desktop from gdm. ----
I keep hearing people complain about Mandrake's versioning and stability, and I just want to make a few comments. First of all, given the number of changes made in 7.0 compared with 6.1, I think the jump to a major number is logical. 7.0 introduces a graphical install utility, DiskDrake for handling partitions (including resizing), Supermount, DrakConf, Lothar, MSEC (a security level chooser), a Mandrake Update agent, and other improvements. This is a major overhaul. Definitely worthy of a major number change.
However, having said that, I think what Mandrake should have done is released an incremental release, 6.2, with minor changes. Basically iron out bugs in 6.1, update some packages, that sort of thing. Then they'd have a rock-solid release to spring off of. All the while, they could be thoroughly testing the 7.0beta. Then in a few months it would be ready for the world. As it is, I think releasing 7.0 in the state it's in is a mistake. I don't think it's ready. I hope I am wrong... ----
With each release since about 5.3, Mandrake has gotten worse and worse in terms of producing a stable product. I love what they are doing in terms of the sort of packages they include, the fact that they are branching out from Red Hat, writing their own installer, and coming up with some great new ideas like Lothar and MSEC, for hardware detection/configuration and security levels. But Mandrake has been extremely buggy. They are too quick to release, and do not test adequately. Mandrake has so much potential, I hate to see them ruin it. ----
What predictions might you make for the 21st century in the area of space exploration? Do you think we'll see a manned mission to Mars within the first couple decades? ----
I see hardware compatibility issues to be one of the primary hindrances to people wanting to try Linux. People don't understand why it "just works" under Windows, but often takes tweaking and elaborate configuration to get it to work under Linux, if it works at all. I realize that VA Linux Systems sells top-notch hardware that works like a dream with Linux. However, is there any work being done at VA Linux Systems to improve GNU/Linux's support of hardware? ----
When Helix ships Gnome 1.4, Nautilus will be included. Now, they may ship a version of Nautilus that doesn't contain Eazel's services stuff, that I don't know. You'd have to talk to someone from Helix Code. I do understand your question regarding the overlap of services between Helix Code and Eazel. I've often wondered the same thing. In addition, Red Hat has an update agent and the Red Hat Network. The internet services for upgrading, purchasing support and services is going to be extremely competitive, which is excellent. It'll be fun to watch how it plays out. My main point was that Nautilus (the file manager and its technologies) will be in Gnome 1.4, which Helix will ship. The Eazel Services I view as a business add-on akin to Helix's Red Carpet. ----
Slashdot Mirror
why don't you give me your email address and we can continue this debate elsewhere? KDE has more applications that are further along, however, GNOME has a much stronger framework.
----
There are pieces of Gnome software that are rather buggy, yes. There are pieces of KDE software that are rather buggy as well. Overall, my personal experience with October Gnome has been exceptionally good. That is to say, the core elements of Gnome are wonderfully stable at this point. And many of the peripheral Gnome Applications such as Gnumeric, GnomeICU (with the release of 0.90, this is easily the best ICQ clone available), x-chat (the latest development version is incredible), grip (how could I live without this application?), and others, are absolutely top-notch in terms of stability, functionality, and usability.
I just changed from Enlightenment to Sawmill. Now StarOffice crashes when I try to run it. (That's not the only change I've made, I've upgraded other things.)
This clearly has nothing to do with Gnome. :)
Try looking elsewhere.
----
it's all semantics...
----
I think it's fairly obvious where the bias is here. Read your statement and think about what you are saying. First of all, I have looked at the /. stories related to Gnome and KDE. As a general rule when there is a newsworthy story related to either project, and it is submitted, it gets posted. As I look at the KDE news page, and the Gnome news page, then look at the stories that have made it to /. regarding either, I see a very evenly distributed coverage. Not every gnome item submitted makes it to /. and not every KDE item submitted makes it.
----
Slashdot is not biased towards GNOME. When KDE went into the feature freeze, it was mentioned on /.. Incidentally, what does what the Linux Journal publishes have to do with what /. publishes?
----
What I find absurd however, is how the GNOME team keeps putting forward *OBVIOUSLY INCOMPLETE* projects like they are 1.0 FCS versions ready to compete with mature implementations.
I think you misunderstood the spirit of the post Miguel made. Some of the newer Gnome technologies such as Bonobo and the Gnome Print Library were not being put forward as ready for prime time. The entire point was to say we're still working on them, they need some more hacking before we'll release them in a public manner.
Maybe the GNOME/Enlightenment guys should spend a little more time themselves on UI design, and less on "looks".
Work is being done to that effect with the Gnome User Interface Improvement Project. Some of the ideas they've come up with have already been implemented, others are still being hacked on. As for Enlightenment, I'm not sure. It's not part of Gnome proper.
----
I have to disagree. It is possible to begin with another's idea and work to "copy" it, but then enhance it. Would you categorize Linux as just a copy of Unix? I look at it this way: You see a good idea and think to yourself, "How could I implement this? Could I improve on it?" And as you implement it, new ideas come to you. It is very much an art form. And it is an art form that the Open Source community excels at.
----
What Miguel is missing is that Aqua is not about transparency, it's about Quartz, the Display-PDF rendering system.
The NeXT display postscript system and Sun's NeWS could also handle alpha easily, but does anyone think that the
only useful feature of Display Postscript or Quartz is being able to render alpha?
Miguel is intelligent enought to know we're not just talking about alpha channeling. He was saying that libart provided the necessary tools. In case you are unaware, libart is a library for high-performance 2D graphics. It is the antialiased rendering engine for the Gnome Canvas. It supports a powerful imaging model which is basically the same as SVG or Java2D. It does Vector Paths, Bezier Paths, RGB and RGBA images, Sorted Vector Paths, MicroTile Arrays, and Affine transformations.
The best innovations are built on the shoulders of others, and if Miguel would spend more time learning and stealing
technology from Apple, Microsoft, and even the KDE team, and less time dismissing everything and trying to reinvent
it, maybe GNOME wouldn't be so buggy and unusable.
This exact approach has been what Miguel has sought after. He is frequently quoted as wanting to take the best ideas from companies like Microsoft, get rid of the bad parts, and integrate them into Gnome. I've personally conversed with him about this exact issue while waiting to watch Phantom Menace on opening night. He says that he doesn't like it when everyone goes around saying Microsoft sucks and that's the end of the story. Microsoft, Apple, and others, have made great strides with their Desktop technologies, and Miguel has been borrowing from them, believe me.
----
The recent announcement of Apple included some very amazing
screenshots of what they could do with their technology. I was
impressed by it for the first two hours, until I realized how easy it
would be for us to actually pull a hack like that.
Although the fully-transparent system can be done with little
effort (as we have a very powerful infrastructure to achieve it: Raph
Levien's libart) a lot of work has to go *first* into making GNOME
easier to use, more intuitive and more easy for newcomers.
If you've seen the screenshot he is refering to that is a pretty impressive statement. Gnome is and is going to be an extremely advanced application framework. But as Miguel points out, there is much work that needs to be done now to make the Gnome Desktop ready to take the world by storm. And no matter who you are, there is something you can do to help.
----
....what wonderful innovations AOL will bring to us as a result of their purchase of Time Warner...
maybe forced video rentals of the crappiest Warner movies ever made?
----
Yes, and I've seen scientific arguments that a bumblebee should not be able to fly. But the fact is, it can fly, so any scientific "evidence" to the contrary is probably not taking other factors into account.
----
Huh? Have you actually used Redhat 6.1. KDE works great. You don't have to *do* anything to get it to work. Either install as a KDE workstation or do a regular install and select KDE as your desktop from gdm.
----
I keep hearing people complain about Mandrake's versioning and stability, and I just want to make a few comments. First of all, given the number of changes made in 7.0 compared with 6.1, I think the jump to a major number is logical. 7.0 introduces a graphical install utility, DiskDrake for handling partitions (including resizing), Supermount, DrakConf, Lothar, MSEC (a security level chooser), a Mandrake Update agent, and other improvements. This is a major overhaul. Definitely worthy of a major number change.
However, having said that, I think what Mandrake should have done is released an incremental release, 6.2, with minor changes. Basically iron out bugs in 6.1, update some packages, that sort of thing. Then they'd have a rock-solid release to spring off of. All the while, they could be thoroughly testing the 7.0beta. Then in a few months it would be ready for the world. As it is, I think releasing 7.0 in the state it's in is a mistake. I don't think it's ready. I hope I am wrong...
----
I hope for the best, but I fear the worst. If they iron out the bugs in 7.0 and test adequately, it should be a fine product.
----
Here is a brief discription of the Higgs Boson.
----
^dis^des
----
With each release since about 5.3, Mandrake has gotten worse and worse in terms of producing a stable product. I love what they are doing in terms of the sort of packages they include, the fact that they are branching out from Red Hat, writing their own installer, and coming up with some great new ideas like Lothar and MSEC, for hardware detection/configuration and security levels. But Mandrake has been extremely buggy. They are too quick to release, and do not test adequately. Mandrake has so much potential, I hate to see them ruin it.
----
prediction #10
----
Well that seems to bode well. I'd love to see the figures themselves though. I suppose time will tell.
----
^our^are
----
What I'm curious about is how well our the games that Loki has ported, thus far, selling? Anyone have any numbers or rough figures?
----
Yeah, I agree with you there. I appreciate Katz's writings, but lose a bit of respect when someone toots their own horn.
----
Dr. Lederman,
What predictions might you make for the 21st century in the area of space exploration? Do you think we'll see a manned mission to Mars within the first couple decades?
----
I see hardware compatibility issues to be one of the primary hindrances to people wanting to try Linux. People don't understand why it "just works" under Windows, but often takes tweaking and elaborate configuration to get it to work under Linux, if it works at all. I realize that VA Linux Systems sells top-notch hardware that works like a dream with Linux. However, is there any work being done at VA Linux Systems to improve GNU/Linux's support of hardware?
----
When Helix ships Gnome 1.4, Nautilus will be included. Now, they may ship a version of Nautilus that doesn't contain Eazel's services stuff, that I don't know. You'd have to talk to someone from Helix Code. I do understand your question regarding the overlap of services between Helix Code and Eazel. I've often wondered the same thing. In addition, Red Hat has an update agent and the Red Hat Network. The internet services for upgrading, purchasing support and services is going to be extremely competitive, which is excellent. It'll be fun to watch how it plays out. My main point was that Nautilus (the file manager and its technologies) will be in Gnome 1.4, which Helix will ship. The Eazel Services I view as a business add-on akin to Helix's Red Carpet.
----