What you may not realize is that Hemos (presumably) changed the story from its original format. I cannot even begin to describe in words what the original story was. It was like the current one but in a really lame cross between Japanese, German, and Redneck. ----
Yes, although a Gnome install-wizard, similar to the installer that Windows software uses, could prove useful. I also think Gnome needs to address the issue of user vs. root maintenance, such as installing software, configuring the gnome menu, configuring the system in general. It can be very confusing for a new Unix/Linux user to understand these concepts. ----
Much better phrased, however you're assuming now that KDE has a larger user base; I'm not sure this is necessarily true,and if so, it is "sophistication" that drew them to the platform. Windows has a larger user base than Gnome or KDE combined...is this due to its "sophistication"? ----
And if I write an app to take advantage of all the great things that bonobo can do I have to force my users to use Gnome?
Absolutely Not. They simply have to have the necessary libraries installed on their system.
Say you've got 20 uber-spreadsheet-guru guys, 10 working on kSpreadsheetx and 10 working on gSpreadsheetx. Why not put all 20 together, get it out faster, and with much higher quality and attention to detail?
I guess I'm missing something. I love Linux, but I don't buy into the idea that there should be 120 teams working on different apps that do the same thing.
While your point is well-taken, this is the curse/beauty of an open platform like Linux. You have choice. If developers don't like the KDE development environment, they can switch to the Gnome. Heck, if they don't like either, they could start their own project completely from scratch. They have that freedom. Only time tells whether or not the projects will have a good following and whether the software will be used by the masses. ----
Amen. I know there's a lot of talk about KDE and Gnome working together; well, this is one area, that they could definitely work together on. If all Gnome/KDE aware applications used the same print/display font configuration and selection, and if the Gnome and KDE developers worked together on a good standard, I think it could very easily become the de facto standard for Unix/Linux systems. ----
Bonobo goes way beyond simply embedding a spread sheet or chart in a word processor document. It allows you to create applications which work together. Every bonobo'ized application increases the power and flexibility of every other one. Rather than re-writing or reusing code from one application, you can simply run that application as part of the application you are currently running. The classic example that Miguel gives is Internet Explorer. The "browser" isn't just one application but hundreds of components that are glued together. And these components can be used in other applications as well. It just makes sense to reuse recources in this way. If you're writing a file manager (nautilus, for example), and you want the file manager to do all sorts of things, such as be able to display dozens of types of image formats, or render HTML, or allow you to make remarks about a bookmark, etc. and you already have components that do those tasks, why not glue them together, embed them in a "shell" of sorts. Another ideal example is the office suite. You have presentation media, word processor/publish media, spreadsheet, diagrams, charts, images. You may want to create a document that contains a number of different types of media and file formats. When editing that document, it makes sense to have the components embedded so that you can modify them right from within that shell. So, if I click on an image within a spreadsheet, the buttons and menu options for an image viewer/editor (gimp, eye of gnome, whatever) appear within the application shell that I started (gnumeric, whatever).
This technology allows a developer to very quickly add advanced functionality to the application he/she is working on, simply by reusing bonobo components that someone else has written, and it allows him/her to make the functionality of the new application available to other developers. ----
I have read on the Helix Code site that one of your next projects will be to write a Word Processor. What are your thoughts on that? Will you simply extend AbiWord, fork it, start from scratch? ----
I do not find the panel "ugly" and quite honestly like the configuration interface. Feel free to state your opinion of the panel, but to say "Everyone hates the way the panel works" is utterly absurd. ----
Actually this question isn't very straightforward at all. Your question assumes that we all know what you mean by "sophistication" and that given your definition of "sophistication" Gnome doesn't match up. So please, define what you mean by sophistication. ----
I would say that if the Gnome and KDE environments can strive to develop a highly flexible environment both in terms of configurability of the desktop and in terms of the development libraries, then you can do what you want with it. If you want it to look and act like windows, fine, or you can make it behave in a totally different manner. ----
A distribution is not just a collection of RPMs, or source files, or whatever. Red Hat puts extensive work into customizing the packages for their system, configuring things to work nicely together, improving the system configuration tools, etc. If you stick with your base system and never upgrade, but instead just update your packages from source, your system will have a different flavour after time goes by, which is fine. But you will miss some of the engineering of the distributor. ----
Re:Stability and reliability
on
GUADEC Reports
·
· Score: 2
What features do you think Gnome lacks?
As far as stability, I'm a bit confused. Have you tried the latest October Gnome builds? I have found them to be extraordinarily stable. The builds that shipped with RH 6.0 were pretty poor, and the ones that shipped with 6.1 were a drastic improvement but still left something to be desired in terms of stability. October Gnome, however, is very solid.
The latest 1.1.X (Helix, etc...) include many more features, but still need to be hammered on a bit more...that's why they're labeled "BETA." I expect that the April Gnome release will come a long way towards smashing these stability bugs. ----
It isn't significant that bochs is being relicensed, it is significant that Lawton was hired.
Actually, both are significant, but the relicensing is far more significant. Granted Lawton could do what he wanted with his code, but the rest of us couldn't. Now we can. And the fact that Mandrake purchased Bochs is extraordinarily significant. Relicensing it will greatly speed up plex86 development. There is now the potential in the near future for an open source application that can do what VMWare can do. Mandrake wants to be the complete solution for users migrating from Windows to Linux. They've done a great job thus far, and this is another step very much in line with their strategy. ----
This is a pretty ignorant statement. First of all, gnome has C++ bindings and there are a number of gnome hackers that use C++ as their primary language. Secondly, it isn't so much the language, but rather the environment and libraries that the developers in the gnome camp prefer. ----
Take a look at the commercial distributions and you'll find a nearly unanimous standardization on KDE - with RedHat being the obvious exception, of course, and Corel leading the charge.
I don't quite see this "unanimous standardization" that you are referring to. Redhat and TurboLinux both offer Gnome as the default desktop. Mandrake, OpenLinux, and Corel Linux offer KDE as the default. Most distributions offer both as desktop choices.
Like it or not, while the Linux community is doing the parallel development thing, in the Linux industry, the race is pretty much over.
Far from it. I can name 3 companies devoting many manhours and cash to Gnome development: RHAD Labs, Eazel, and Helix Code. Companies such as MandrakeSoft and Corel are funding KDE development. The race, if anything, is just beginning to get interesting...
Yeah, I know about Eazel. Judging by the amount of hype they've generated, all I can say about them is: show me the code.
I predict KDE 2 will probably signal the beginning of the end of the GNOME/KDE struggle - its been fun, but KDE appears to be keeping one generation ahead, and is certainly better looking.
Your prediction will most certainly fail. Watch and see. Perhaps what you are overlooking is that different users prefer different things. I will grant you that KDE is more advanced than Gnome in some areas, primarly in the number of applications they have available. However, many developers prefer hacking in the Gnome environment much better than that KDE environment. And Gnome is doing things now that KDE can't do or hasn't yet. Both environments have their strengths. I can also think of at least 3 companies that are putting extensive amounts of money and manhours into improving Gnome (RHAD Labs, Eazel, and Helix Code). These companies aren't going to just drop their work on Gnome once KDE 2 comes out. You also say that KDE "looks" better. Let me remind you that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I personally find KDE to be hideous compared to Gnome. This is not a bash-KDE comment. Honestly, I love what KDE is doing. I keep up with the KDE development news, love looking at new screenshots, reading about KOffice and other such projects, and wish them all the luck. And I think the competition between Gnome and KDE is healthy. Neither community is going away anytime soon. I can assure you of that. ----
Linux.com happens to be running this article on music creation software under Linux. It mentions projects such as gAlan, a project to create an application for electronic music generation, FreeBirth, an attempt at a ReBirth clone, SoundTracker, Brahms, a MIDI sequencer, and aRts, a analog synthesizer application. ----
Have you even read the announcement or browsed the website? Helix Code is not forking Gnome proper. Nor is Eazel or any other company that I am aware of. Helix Code is made up of some of the top Gnome Hackers. They've been working on Evolution, Gnumeric, and many other efforts for months. Now they are packaging it up with an easy-to-use installer.
As for not being innovative, you obviously don't keep up with Gnome development. The evolution mailer, for example, is extremely innovative. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have yet to see such a model for handling mail. The "folders" are simply different ways of looking at your mail collection--filters, or database queries, if you will. ----
Why would I choose Helix Support, Inc. over Redhat or Linuxcare support. As an enterprise, doesn't it make much more sense to have a single support source like Linuxcare who would support Gnome and KDE and Linux and Apache and whatever else you needed support for. I also question the assumption that sales can be replaced by support. It's like declaring the skill of the developer to be valueless.
The answer is, you wouldn't, at least not likely. I think it is likely they will make most of their money with corporate contracts. For example, a small distribution wants to use Gnome as their default desktop. But they want it customized. Helix Code will do that for them for a fee, customizing any details they want. Maybe this company also wants them to write a wizard to set up networking or something. The possibilities are endless. The company pays Helix code to write them a customized desktop environment and even to write additional applications for it.
As for contracts, it sounds interesting. But ask yourself why a company would pay Helix to write an application that will be released for free when it is complete. The "free rider" problem inherent in this situation is enormous!
Maybe you aren't quite in tune with how Open Source business works. Do you have any idea how many people are paid to write open source (free) applications? And it actually works. Let's go back to the example of the distribution company. Let's call them GreenCap Linux. GreenCap is a new distribution. They like what they see with the Helix Desktop, but want a bit more. They pay Helix Code to customize the desktop to their specifications. They pay them to write a few small configuration tools (in the spirit of the RedHat control panel or something), wizards, that sort of thing. They pay the Gnome experts to write customized Gnome documentation for the GreenCap manual. There you have it. GreenCap outsourced a part of their product for a fee. They make the loss back and actually make profit when they sell their freely downloadable product in boxed form with support agreements, beautiful manuals, and some extra commerical applications. See how it works? ----
This is true of any package you download and install as root. The average user simply trusts that when he downloads something metioned on Freshmeat, su's, and installs the rpm or whatever, he isn't going to trash his system. And thus far I have yet to hear of anyone actually experiencing problems of this nature. ----
They are going to make money with support and contracts for development. It's really quite simple. As Gnome becomes increasingly popular, companies (and conceivably individuals) could pay them to make enhancements to the Gnome environment, or to write a specific application. In addition, they are Gnome experts and could field any support issue for a fee. They might also, as you suggest write manuals... ----
Does anyone have any insight into how Gnome Office fits into the picture? Will this be released along with the 2.0 release of Gnome? I realize that the various components of the office suite are available now, but they currently do not integrate very well. Bonobo and Gnome Print are both key technologies to the office suite, but neither have yet been released as part of the 1.X development platform. Aside from Gnumeric, which nicely demonstrates these technologies, have the other elements of the Office suite made strides to integrate?
I'd also like to encourage the Gnome hackers to seriously consider working on an IDE similar to KDevlop. That is simply an amazing piece of work. You have all the documentation and tools necessary to rapidly create KDE applications...and it's very easy to use and intuitive. I know that Gnome has Glade and gIDE and there has been talk of integrating the two, but somehow that doesn't seem like the answer. I think Glade should be integrated into an IDE, but gIDE is no KDevelop, no offense to the author(s). A very functional IDE that even new hackers could use, would go a long way to getting further involvment int the gnome project. ----
Slashdot Mirror
What you may not realize is that Hemos (presumably) changed the story from its original format. I cannot even begin to describe in words what the original story was. It was like the current one but in a really lame cross between Japanese, German, and Redneck.
----
Skeezix writes, "What in the name of all that is holy are you blathering about, Hemos? And why did you change the story back to English?"
----
IFTU
----
Yes, although a Gnome install-wizard, similar to the installer that Windows software uses, could prove useful. I also think Gnome needs to address the issue of user vs. root maintenance, such as installing software, configuring the gnome menu, configuring the system in general. It can be very confusing for a new Unix/Linux user to understand these concepts.
----
Much better phrased, however you're assuming now that KDE has a larger user base; I'm not sure this is necessarily true,and if so, it is "sophistication" that drew them to the platform. Windows has a larger user base than Gnome or KDE combined...is this due to its "sophistication"?
----
Absolutely Not. They simply have to have the necessary libraries installed on their system.
Say you've got 20 uber-spreadsheet-guru guys, 10 working on kSpreadsheetx and 10 working on
gSpreadsheetx. Why not put all 20 together, get it out faster, and with much higher quality and attention to detail?
I guess I'm missing something. I love Linux, but I don't buy into the idea that there should be 120 teams working on different apps that do the same thing.
While your point is well-taken, this is the curse/beauty of an open platform like Linux. You have choice. If developers don't like the KDE development environment, they can switch to the Gnome. Heck, if they don't like either, they could start their own project completely from scratch. They have that freedom. Only time tells whether or not the projects will have a good following and whether the software will be used by the masses.
----
Amen. I know there's a lot of talk about KDE and Gnome working together; well, this is one area, that they could definitely work together on. If all Gnome/KDE aware applications used the same print/display font configuration and selection, and if the Gnome and KDE developers worked together on a good standard, I think it could very easily become the de facto standard for Unix/Linux systems.
----
This technology allows a developer to very quickly add advanced functionality to the application he/she is working on, simply by reusing bonobo components that someone else has written, and it allows him/her to make the functionality of the new application available to other developers.
----
I have read on the Helix Code site that one of your next projects will be to write a Word Processor. What are your thoughts on that? Will you simply extend AbiWord, fork it, start from scratch?
----
I do not find the panel "ugly" and quite honestly like the configuration interface. Feel free to state your opinion of the panel, but to say "Everyone hates the way the panel works" is utterly absurd.
----
Actually this question isn't very straightforward at all. Your question assumes that we all know what you mean by "sophistication" and that given your definition of "sophistication" Gnome doesn't match up. So please, define what you mean by sophistication.
----
I would say that if the Gnome and KDE environments can strive to develop a highly flexible environment both in terms of configurability of the desktop and in terms of the development libraries, then you can do what you want with it. If you want it to look and act like windows, fine, or you can make it behave in a totally different manner.
----
A distribution is not just a collection of RPMs, or source files, or whatever. Red Hat puts extensive work into customizing the packages for their system, configuring things to work nicely together, improving the system configuration tools, etc. If you stick with your base system and never upgrade, but instead just update your packages from source, your system will have a different flavour after time goes by, which is fine. But you will miss some of the engineering of the distributor.
----
As far as stability, I'm a bit confused. Have you tried the latest October Gnome builds? I have found them to be extraordinarily stable. The builds that shipped with RH 6.0 were pretty poor, and the ones that shipped with 6.1 were a drastic improvement but still left something to be desired in terms of stability. October Gnome, however, is very solid.
The latest 1.1.X (Helix, etc...) include many more features, but still need to be hammered on a bit more...that's why they're labeled "BETA." I expect that the April Gnome release will come a long way towards smashing these stability bugs.
----
Actually, both are significant, but the relicensing is far more significant. Granted Lawton could do what he wanted with his code, but the rest of us couldn't. Now we can. And the fact that Mandrake purchased Bochs is extraordinarily significant. Relicensing it will greatly speed up plex86 development. There is now the potential in the near future for an open source application that can do what VMWare can do. Mandrake wants to be the complete solution for users migrating from Windows to Linux. They've done a great job thus far, and this is another step very much in line with their strategy.
----
This is a pretty ignorant statement. First of all, gnome has C++ bindings and there are a number of gnome hackers that use C++ as their primary language. Secondly, it isn't so much the language, but rather the environment and libraries that the developers in the gnome camp prefer.
----
I don't quite see this "unanimous standardization" that you are referring to. Redhat and TurboLinux both offer Gnome as the default desktop. Mandrake, OpenLinux, and Corel Linux offer KDE as the default. Most distributions offer both as desktop choices.
Like it or not, while the Linux community is doing the parallel development thing, in the Linux industry, the race is pretty much over.
Far from it. I can name 3 companies devoting many manhours and cash to Gnome development: RHAD Labs, Eazel, and Helix Code. Companies such as MandrakeSoft and Corel are funding KDE development. The race, if anything, is just beginning to get interesting...
Yeah, I know about Eazel. Judging by the amount of hype they've generated, all I can say about them is: show me the code.
okay:
here is some of it.
----
Will you gives specific examples of what you'd like to see. What would the ideal interface look like?
----
Your prediction will most certainly fail. Watch and see. Perhaps what you are overlooking is that different users prefer different things. I will grant you that KDE is more advanced than Gnome in some areas, primarly in the number of applications they have available. However, many developers prefer hacking in the Gnome environment much better than that KDE environment. And Gnome is doing things now that KDE can't do or hasn't yet. Both environments have their strengths. I can also think of at least 3 companies that are putting extensive amounts of money and manhours into improving Gnome (RHAD Labs, Eazel, and Helix Code). These companies aren't going to just drop their work on Gnome once KDE 2 comes out. You also say that KDE "looks" better. Let me remind you that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I personally find KDE to be hideous compared to Gnome. This is not a bash-KDE comment. Honestly, I love what KDE is doing. I keep up with the KDE development news, love looking at new screenshots, reading about KOffice and other such projects, and wish them all the luck. And I think the competition between Gnome and KDE is healthy. Neither community is going away anytime soon. I can assure you of that.
----
Linux.com happens to be running this article on music creation software under Linux. It mentions projects such as gAlan, a project to create an application for electronic music generation, FreeBirth, an attempt at a ReBirth clone, SoundTracker, Brahms, a MIDI sequencer, and aRts, a analog synthesizer application.
----
As for not being innovative, you obviously don't keep up with Gnome development. The evolution mailer, for example, is extremely innovative. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have yet to see such a model for handling mail. The "folders" are simply different ways of looking at your mail collection--filters, or database queries, if you will.
----
The answer is, you wouldn't, at least not likely. I think it is likely they will make most of their money with corporate contracts. For example, a small distribution wants to use Gnome as their default desktop. But they want it customized. Helix Code will do that for them for a fee, customizing any details they want. Maybe this company also wants them to write a wizard to set up networking or something. The possibilities are endless. The company pays Helix code to write them a customized desktop environment and even to write additional applications for it.
As for contracts, it sounds interesting. But ask yourself why a company would pay Helix to write an application that will be released for free when it is complete. The "free rider" problem inherent in this situation is enormous!
Maybe you aren't quite in tune with how Open Source business works. Do you have any idea how many people are paid to write open source (free) applications? And it actually works. Let's go back to the example of the distribution company. Let's call them GreenCap Linux. GreenCap is a new distribution. They like what they see with the Helix Desktop, but want a bit more. They pay Helix Code to customize the desktop to their specifications. They pay them to write a few small configuration tools (in the spirit of the RedHat control panel or something), wizards, that sort of thing. They pay the Gnome experts to write customized Gnome documentation for the GreenCap manual. There you have it. GreenCap outsourced a part of their product for a fee. They make the loss back and actually make profit when they sell their freely downloadable product in boxed form with support agreements, beautiful manuals, and some extra commerical applications. See how it works?
----
This is true of any package you download and install as root. The average user simply trusts that when he downloads something metioned on Freshmeat, su's, and installs the rpm or whatever, he isn't going to trash his system. And thus far I have yet to hear of anyone actually experiencing problems of this nature.
----
They are going to make money with support and contracts for development. It's really quite simple. As Gnome becomes increasingly popular, companies (and conceivably individuals) could pay them to make enhancements to the Gnome environment, or to write a specific application. In addition, they are Gnome experts and could field any support issue for a fee. They might also, as you suggest write manuals...
----
I'd also like to encourage the Gnome hackers to seriously consider working on an IDE similar to KDevlop. That is simply an amazing piece of work. You have all the documentation and tools necessary to rapidly create KDE applications...and it's very easy to use and intuitive. I know that Gnome has Glade and gIDE and there has been talk of integrating the two, but somehow that doesn't seem like the answer. I think Glade should be integrated into an IDE, but gIDE is no KDevelop, no offense to the author(s). A very functional IDE that even new hackers could use, would go a long way to getting further involvment int the gnome project.
----