"And yet there I am, suddenly the intolerant monster I have never been able to stand. Yet I tremble to imagine a future dark ages in America, where real science -- the search for the evidence of the reality of the universe -- is stoned in the streets and systematically rubbed out."
Just read in wired that the number of americans who believe (understand more like it) in evolution is down to 40%
"You use it, you take responsibility for the results. You don't understand how it works? Hire a consultant. The fact that it is a complex tool does not excuse you if you libel someone."
Ranking someone based on your critera is not libel.
""Or made sure they didn't join the soviet union (which some wanted). "
Really? Which countries are those again?"
People.
""Yeah, like you started the war when the Japanese started shooting at you. "
I was referring to the fact that Europeans started and fought WW2, not Germans specifically. "
And I was dismissing it. One austrian started to invade all other countries, they had the choice to do nothing or defend themselves - obviously they defended themselves.
"the Western Powers had treated a defeated Germany with respect "
Ah, like you treated japan - well then Hitler would have chosen another excuse. People generally feel insecure, and will for milennia to come most likely.
"This has been an interesting conversation but I honestly don't see you changing your viewpoints about the United States"
I doubt you know them.
"It's interesting that people are rooting for our downfall "
As you said not everybody is. Perhaps there is a god on your side.
"I suspect that if the United States was replaced with another superpower that everybody would decide to starting rooting against them as well (unless that superpower is their own country of course) regardless of anything good or bad that they may do."
Most likely, unless they are very skilled psychologists.
Of course, but clickin on a button is not signing a contract. an eula is not a contract, its some bullshit where a lot of it is probably illegal anyway.
If that vast majority of the people on the planet do not read that crap (and they don't) its a sick amoral law which could decree its legal.
You could just read it? Yeah, and they could just stop adding a lot of crap and follow the law of the land.
""But when people feel threatened they vent how they can. "
Yes, because the American tourist sitting at an open-air cafe in Florence eating lunch with his girlfriend is really threatening and deserves to be insulted and mocked even though he was minding his own business and trying to enjoy the day"
I just told you how it works.
""I didn't ask you for "help"
No, your leaders did."
Just like your leader invaded iraq (to give them the joys of copyright and get their oil)
"There wouldn't have been that whole mess if the Western Powers after WW1 hadn't got the bright idea of creating an artificial country."
Yeah, it always creates problems, just look at the Israelis ("Our supernatural being told us we must live here - move over")
"I personally don't like Bush. I personally don't like some of the things my country has done lately."
Good.
"But when you start trashing us and spouting the same old anti-American nonsense that I expect from the likes of Hugo Chavez you encourage Americans to close ranks and unite against you."
And *that* is what I said originally is happening in the other end when too many start with the "you should be greatefull for all we have done for you"
""and more than 40% believe in Evolution."
Again with the blanket statements that serve no purpose other then pissing educated Americans off."
Just read it in the latest issue of Wired (gasp, an american magazine) - the US comming in at the 29th spot of 30 countries. Of course Turkey was at 30th with 28% - here's hoping they don't get in.
"You realize that statements like that close the door to any meaningful debate with the educated and moderate Americans that are likely on your side to begin with? "
Hm, not really no. If the other party thinks "Yeah, that is sad" its sort of over already, and if he thinks "But God is real, we can prove that" its definitely over as well.
"That's funny because Germany and Italy received a lot more aid then Sweden did."
Well its possible my source were incorrect - quite frankly I can't be bothered to research any further.
"And that money was 'economic imperialism'?"
Valid interpretation.
"So the United States helps to rebuild your countries"
Or made sure they didn't join the soviet union (which some wanted).
"after you destroyed them in a war that you started"
Yeah, like you started the war when the Japanese started shooting at you.
"Has the US never done a single positive thing in your World?"
""everbody in germany below the age of 70 does not have anything at all to do with what some people did many many years ago - to even suggest its ironic is stupid "
To tell me that I should be ashamed because of my leader is equally stupid."
Not so much.
"To be rude to me when I'm a guest in your country because of my leader is equally stupid. "
Well, is not polite, and its mostly pointless. But when people feel threatened they vent how they can.
"What, you can dish it out but you can't take it?"
Like you they probably weren't interested in the opposing view.
"You seem to think that the United States is holding you down. "
Keeping reigns on allowed development paths.
"Can we have all of our money from the Marshall Plan and post WW2 aid please?"
That money was economic imperialism, spent in an attempt to buy control over Western Europe. Though interestingly enough nations who receive little "aid" (Germany, Austria, Italy) grew more in post war years than nations who received a lot (Sweden, Greece and Britian) infact you kept fleesing Britain in the lendlease act for decades, with them finishing it of in 2000. But I'm sure the rest of the world would like the US to cough up the billions they owe the UN.
"How about our war debts (some of which date back to the first world war) that you never repaid?"
Well if you have lent money to someone you'd have to talk to the people you lent it to, I haven't borrowed anything. But I can imagine you are getting desperate with the dollar going down the drain http://pressesc.com/01180629622_dollar_falls
"How about that little mess down in the Balkans that you couldn't even solve without our help (via NATO) not ten years ago? "
I didn't ask you for "help". Just stay away. The primitives need to slug it out - and unless you can keep the parties in opposing ringsides for several generations they are back at it when you turn yours. Of course they are siding with each other in the Eurovision song contest, so perhaps songs will win the peace!
"How about the Berlin airlift and defending the people of Germany against Russian vengeance for their crimes on the Eastern Front?"
What, helping Hitler supporters to gain foothold in europe? I don't know, what about it?
"Now I'm not saying that all of that entitles us to walk all over you."
But perhaps it entitles you to think you are the center of the universe and that all who breathes envy you?
"But I do think that the blind and arrogant anti-Americanism shown by many Europeans really needs to end. "
I'm sure that happens once the americans are less pro american and more than 40% believe in Evolution.
"Try a constructive dialog sometime. You'll find it more productive"
Productive? Hardly.
"...then spouting off the latest bit of propaganda spoon-fed to you by those that hate or envy the United States"
Is so funny, i've never met anyone who envies it. I've only ever heard about it from americans, usually right after they tell us how great they are and how we should worship them.
"You wouldn't even be able to have that welfare state if you hadn't been leaning on the United States for your collective defense for the last 60 years. If Europe had to foot the cost of building a large enough military machine to resist the Soviet Union where would it be today?"
Or the US intereferede to make sure sure the countries of Europe developed in a way the US wanted.
Besides, there is always money for arms.
""Or is it irony because you feel justified in blaming people living today for what a certain Austrian guy did more than 60 years ago? "
Did I say I blamed them? "
Yes, by using ironic - everbody in germany below the age of 70 does not have anything at all to do with what some people did many many years ago - to even suggest its ironic is stupid. Whereas if you live in a democracy you bear some blame for the actions of the leader - would you accept "We didn't vote for Hitler" as an excuse from Germans 60 years ago?
""Hence the external enemy to unite the internal. "
Let me know how that goes for you."
I was just telling him how people work.
"as soon as you figure out what to do with your welfare state,"
Do with it? Just keep it where it is - of course not spending money on all kinds of other crap would help.
"how the command structure for your forces will work "
In a couple of hundred of years thepoliticians will probably have forced through a join EU army.
"how you will bring the rest of the EU (some of whom actually like the United States) on board with your plan to unite against the US"
My plan? What plan? What nonsense are you inventing (or is it drugs perhaps?)
"I've been to Italy, the UK, Ireland, Greece and Turkey, all in the last three years. And most of the people that I met had a more or less positive opinion of the US."
Ah, you noticed a "more or less" attitude - the people who hate are the ones who lost family and friends because of military intervention - you haven't bombed europe lately (just snatched a few citizens illegaly)
"In fact the only people I've ever encountered hostility"
Open hostility is pointless, unless you have a big army.
"a group of German tourists told me, in English that I should be "ashamed" to be an American because of my leader."
An emotional level you have yet to attain apparently, however you will notice many of your countrymen and politicians do feel ashamed - collective emotional responsibility.
Besides, if you aren't it must be because you agree with him.
"Germans telling somebody that they should be ashamed because of their leader (whom I didn't even vote for, FYI). That's irony."
Why is that Irony, do you have a problem with the German leader Andrea Merkel?
Or is it irony because you feel justified in blaming people living today for what a certain Austrian guy did more than 60 years ago?
"Comparing the installation of an anti-missile defense system to a first strike attack installation is hardly grounds for a double standard arguement. "
Any system is a first strike attack system with the right missiles loaded.
"An interceptor missile that can only be used to shoot down an ICBM or a RV (reentry vehicle) is a defensive weapon by nature."
If you trust that description.
"Those of you in Europe wonder why you need the United States and/or Russia? Maybe because those of you in Europe couldn't stop Hitler yourselves?"
We could - we were about to when the US finally decided to join, at that point we would have won anyway. I know most of your movies always show the US won the war on their own, but its just not true.
And even if it had been, that was then this is now - many feel you are more trouble than help.
"The EU doesn't have the means to "atomic-bitchslap" the United States or Russia. The EU could hurt either country very badly but would be utterly wiped out in return."
So the one with most kills wins?
"And that seems like an awful lot of posturing to be making when the EU can't even agree on internal trade quotas or policies."
Most humans need an outside enemy to agree on something - apparently some feel the US could be that enemy.
"Kind of ironic since you are posting on an American website."
A website which is IN america, not his country presumably.
"But, by all means, let's isolate the EU from the US and Russia. I bet you'd fall upon yourselves within a matter of decades."
Hari Seldon would tell you the US has started to fall, you just haven't noticed it yet.
"USA has never really been expanisionist in the same sense, but we can see they do like to make their influence felt strongly. In particular they want to trade on their terms and they want to be able to land their military in your country if they feel the need. "
And people to follow their laws, and that they just turn over any citizen to be prosecuted in the US.
If you say its ok to blieve in something which is essentially you something you make up, you sanction the notion that "Its ok to choose to believe someone based on how you feel" - which leads to people denying global warming, evolution etc etc.
Slashdot Mirror
"And yet there I am, suddenly the intolerant monster I have never been able to stand. Yet I tremble to imagine a future dark ages in America, where real science -- the search for the evidence of the reality of the universe -- is stoned in the streets and systematically rubbed out."
Just read in wired that the number of americans who believe (understand more like it) in evolution is down to 40%
"In fact, theology and science really occupy totally different parts of many people's lives."
Yeah, science is fact, religion is fear.
"You use it, you take responsibility for the results. You don't understand how it works? Hire a consultant. The fact that it is a complex tool does not excuse you if you libel someone."
Ranking someone based on your critera is not libel.
"Don't try to make religion science"
But it is, its schizophrenia.
"The former is bad because it misses the possible truths about God's universe."
Truths can be determined (eventually), or its just fantasy.
""Or made sure they didn't join the soviet union (which some wanted). "
Really? Which countries are those again?"
People.
""Yeah, like you started the war when the Japanese started shooting at you. "
I was referring to the fact that Europeans started and fought WW2, not Germans specifically. "
And I was dismissing it. One austrian started to invade all other countries, they had the choice to do nothing or defend themselves - obviously they defended themselves.
"the Western Powers had treated a defeated Germany with respect "
Ah, like you treated japan - well then Hitler would have chosen another excuse. People generally feel insecure, and will for milennia to come most likely.
"This has been an interesting conversation but I honestly don't see you changing your viewpoints about the United States"
I doubt you know them.
"It's interesting that people are rooting for our downfall "
As you said not everybody is. Perhaps there is a god on your side.
"I suspect that if the United States was replaced with another superpower that everybody would decide to starting rooting against them as well (unless that superpower is their own country of course) regardless of anything good or bad that they may do."
Most likely, unless they are very skilled psychologists.
"I read everything I sign before I sign it."
Of course, but clickin on a button is not signing a contract. an eula is not a contract, its some bullshit where a lot of it is probably illegal anyway.
If that vast majority of the people on the planet do not read that crap (and they don't) its a sick amoral law which could decree its legal.
You could just read it? Yeah, and they could just stop adding a lot of crap and follow the law of the land.
Ooh its a bare breast, now they will all become insane and grow up and fake evidence and invade countries at a whim!
""But when people feel threatened they vent how they can. "
Yes, because the American tourist sitting at an open-air cafe in Florence eating lunch with his girlfriend is really threatening and deserves to be insulted and mocked even though he was minding his own business and trying to enjoy the day"
I just told you how it works.
""I didn't ask you for "help"
No, your leaders did."
Just like your leader invaded iraq (to give them the joys of copyright and get their oil)
"There wouldn't have been that whole mess if the Western Powers after WW1 hadn't got the bright idea of creating an artificial country."
Yeah, it always creates problems, just look at the Israelis ("Our supernatural being told us we must live here - move over")
"I personally don't like Bush. I personally don't like some of the things my country has done lately."
Good.
"But when you start trashing us and spouting the same old anti-American nonsense that I expect from the likes of Hugo Chavez you encourage Americans to close ranks and unite against you."
And *that* is what I said originally is happening in the other end when too many start with the "you should be greatefull for all we have done for you"
""and more than 40% believe in Evolution."
Again with the blanket statements that serve no purpose other then pissing educated Americans off."
Just read it in the latest issue of Wired (gasp, an american magazine) - the US comming in at the 29th spot of 30 countries.
Of course Turkey was at 30th with 28% - here's hoping they don't get in.
"You realize that statements like that close the door to any meaningful debate with the educated and moderate Americans that are likely on your side to begin with? "
Hm, not really no. If the other party thinks "Yeah, that is sad" its sort of over already, and if he thinks "But God is real, we can prove that" its definitely over as well.
"That's funny because Germany and Italy received a lot more aid then Sweden did."
Well its possible my source were incorrect - quite frankly I can't be bothered to research any further.
"And that money was 'economic imperialism'?"
Valid interpretation.
"So the United States helps to rebuild your countries"
Or made sure they didn't join the soviet union (which some wanted).
"after you destroyed them in a war that you started"
Yeah, like you started the war when the Japanese started shooting at you.
"Has the US never done a single positive thing in your World?"
Sure.
""everbody in germany below the age of 70 does not have anything at all to do with what some people did many many years ago - to even suggest its ironic is stupid "
To tell me that I should be ashamed because of my leader is equally stupid."
Not so much.
"To be rude to me when I'm a guest in your country because of my leader is equally stupid. "
Well, is not polite, and its mostly pointless. But when people feel threatened they vent how they can.
"What, you can dish it out but you can't take it?"
Like you they probably weren't interested in the opposing view.
"You seem to think that the United States is holding you down. "
Keeping reigns on allowed development paths.
"Can we have all of our money from the Marshall Plan and post WW2 aid please?"
That money was economic imperialism, spent in an attempt to buy control over Western Europe. Though interestingly enough nations who receive little "aid" (Germany, Austria, Italy) grew more in post war years than nations who received a lot (Sweden, Greece and Britian) infact you kept fleesing Britain in the lendlease act for decades, with them finishing it of in 2000. But I'm sure the rest of the world would like the US to cough up the billions they owe the UN.
"How about our war debts (some of which date back to the first world war) that you never repaid?"
Well if you have lent money to someone you'd have to talk to the people you lent it to, I haven't borrowed anything. But I can imagine you are getting desperate with the dollar going down the drain http://pressesc.com/01180629622_dollar_falls
"How about that little mess down in the Balkans that you couldn't even solve without our help (via NATO) not ten years ago? "
I didn't ask you for "help". Just stay away. The primitives need to slug it out - and unless you can keep the parties in opposing ringsides for several generations they are back at it when you turn yours. Of course they are siding with each other in the Eurovision song contest, so perhaps songs will win the peace!
"How about the Berlin airlift and defending the people of Germany against Russian vengeance for their crimes on the Eastern Front?"
What, helping Hitler supporters to gain foothold in europe? I don't know, what about it?
"Now I'm not saying that all of that entitles us to walk all over you."
But perhaps it entitles you to think you are the center of the universe and that all who breathes envy you?
"But I do think that the blind and arrogant anti-Americanism shown by many Europeans really needs to end. "
I'm sure that happens once the americans are less pro american and more than 40% believe in Evolution.
"Try a constructive dialog sometime. You'll find it more productive"
Productive? Hardly.
"...then spouting off the latest bit of propaganda spoon-fed to you by those that hate or envy the United States"
Is so funny, i've never met anyone who envies it. I've only ever heard about it from americans, usually right after they tell us how great they are and how we should worship them.
You are as much an idiot as those other children who has to post FIRST!
"You wouldn't even be able to have that welfare state if you hadn't been leaning on the United States for your collective defense for the last 60 years. If Europe had to foot the cost of building a large enough military machine to resist the Soviet Union where would it be today?"
Or the US intereferede to make sure sure the countries of Europe developed in a way the US wanted.
Besides, there is always money for arms.
""Or is it irony because you feel justified in blaming people living today for what a certain Austrian guy did more than 60 years ago? "
Did I say I blamed them? "
Yes, by using ironic - everbody in germany below the age of 70 does not have anything at all to do with what some people did many many years ago - to even suggest its ironic is stupid. Whereas if you live in a democracy you bear some blame for the actions of the leader - would you accept "We didn't vote for Hitler" as an excuse from Germans 60 years ago?
""God"? What has god got to do with this?"
He has a part time job at Cern.
""Hence the external enemy to unite the internal. "
Let me know how that goes for you."
I was just telling him how people work.
"as soon as you figure out what to do with your welfare state,"
Do with it? Just keep it where it is - of course not spending money on all kinds of other crap would help.
"how the command structure for your forces will work "
In a couple of hundred of years thepoliticians will probably have forced through a join EU army.
"how you will bring the rest of the EU (some of whom actually like the United States) on board with your plan to unite against the US"
My plan? What plan? What nonsense are you inventing (or is it drugs perhaps?)
"I've been to Italy, the UK, Ireland, Greece and Turkey, all in the last three years. And most of the people that I met had a more or less positive opinion of the US."
Ah, you noticed a "more or less" attitude - the people who hate are the ones who lost family and friends because of military intervention - you haven't bombed europe lately (just snatched a few citizens illegaly)
"In fact the only people I've ever encountered hostility"
Open hostility is pointless, unless you have a big army.
"a group of German tourists told me, in English that I should be "ashamed" to be an American because of my leader."
An emotional level you have yet to attain apparently, however you will notice many of your countrymen and politicians do feel ashamed - collective emotional responsibility.
Besides, if you aren't it must be because you agree with him.
"Germans telling somebody that they should be ashamed because of their leader (whom I didn't even vote for, FYI). That's irony."
Why is that Irony, do you have a problem with the German leader Andrea Merkel?
Or is it irony because you feel justified in blaming people living today for what a certain Austrian guy did more than 60 years ago?
" "Yeah yeah, that's what they claim. But you can always change missles quickly once you have launch sites."
They don't need to do that. "
Not relevant.
"They've left the ABM treaty "
Of course, otherwise they couldn't spread weapons all over europe.
"The fact of the matter is that Russia doesn't matter anymore "
Lol. Dream on. Print that out, come back in 10 years and see if you don't blush.
*Post scan complete: Beep. No content found*
""Which could be fired at russia."
You mean "could be fired at incoming Russian ICBMS"."
No, I mean could be fired at russia.
"These missiles are purely defensive - they are only designed to destroy missiles."
Yeah yeah, that's what they claim. But you can always change missles quickly once you have launch sites.
"Rice claimed they don't even have warheads, which is plausible for a hit to kill interceptor."
She also claimed Saddam had weapons of mass destruction.
""So the one with most kills wins? "
Again, I was responding to the GP's claim that the EU could "atomic-bitchslap" the United States and/or Russia."
Which they could, he wasn't talking about desperate reshoots.
""Most humans need an outside enemy to agree on something - apparently some feel the US could be that enemy. "
And others feel that Paris and Berlin are the enemy and that the EU is a ploy for them to dominate Europe."
Hence the external enemy to unite the internal.
"Comparing the installation of an anti-missile defense system to a first strike attack installation is hardly grounds for a double standard arguement. "
Any system is a first strike attack system with the right missiles loaded.
"An interceptor missile that can only be used to shoot down an ICBM or a RV (reentry vehicle) is a defensive weapon by nature."
If you trust that description.
"Those of you in Europe wonder why you need the United States and/or Russia? Maybe because those of you in Europe couldn't stop Hitler yourselves?"
We could - we were about to when the US finally decided to join, at that point we would have won anyway. I know most of your movies always show the US won the war on their own, but its just not true.
And even if it had been, that was then this is now - many feel you are more trouble than help.
"The EU doesn't have the means to "atomic-bitchslap" the United States or Russia. The EU could hurt either country very badly but would be utterly wiped out in return."
So the one with most kills wins?
"And that seems like an awful lot of posturing to be making when the EU can't even agree on internal trade quotas or policies."
Most humans need an outside enemy to agree on something - apparently some feel the US could be that enemy.
"Kind of ironic since you are posting on an American website."
A website which is IN america, not his country presumably.
"But, by all means, let's isolate the EU from the US and Russia. I bet you'd fall upon yourselves within a matter of decades."
Hari Seldon would tell you the US has started to fall, you just haven't noticed it yet.
"But that still doesn't change the fact that on some level they scare the hell out of me."
And therefore people kill and invent gods: They fear.
"Well, unlike Russia's America's presence and influence are, actually, beneficial."
Why is why the generate enemies all over the world - especially when the US sides with one side in a conflict against another.
"I hope to read some posts explaining how Russia is totally justified in threatening to attack Poland and the Czech Republic for "
That's not what he did.
"hosting American missiles "
Which could be fired at russia.
"which are designed to shoot down Iranian ICBMs."
Yeah, except they don't have any.
"USA has never really been expanisionist in the same sense, but we can see they do like to make their influence felt strongly. In particular they want to trade on their terms and they want to be able to land their military in your country if they feel the need. "
And people to follow their laws, and that they just turn over any citizen to be prosecuted in the US.
If you say its ok to blieve in something which is essentially you something you make up, you sanction the notion that "Its ok to choose to believe someone based on how you feel" - which leads to people denying global warming, evolution etc etc.
Save the world - loose religion.
"now tell me: how should they charge less?"
Simple: Reduce prices (I don't buy that they are poor people without a penny unless you provide specific budgets.)