every visit to/. I find myself arguing with the angry internet hivemind. Here I'm responding to an anonymous coward, but still feel the need to point out that the comments here have flow into fantasy.
Go read Danny Sullivans' articles - he details how the results are different, bing is not copying google and how google uses their toolbar in similiar ways. This is a tempest in a teakettle. Find something real to fight.
Hugs, Anonymous cowards - I just want to love you with the data.
Did y'all read these articles? Danny Sullivan went back over this exhaustively.
The "underhanded" things Google accused Bing of doing to get clickstream data? Google does the same things, with the same disclosure. The "cheating" around click results? Complete BS.
Charges of "industrial espionage" based on public data? Gibberish. read the articles, then argue with me.
Ok, so this is completely BS. I'm sharing youtube links with the wife next to me, and she's not enjoying it (so I know they got through)... If I want read make-believe "facts" I'll go read wikipedia or foxnews.com like everyone else.
I love that slashdot is still fighting MS, regardless of what they do. This is an announcement for a private beta to sync data between devices -- and the response is all piss & vinegar about how someone else might have sync'd (sank? sunk?) data first.
Genius, someone tag that with "insightful".
Where are the responsible posters? I miss arguments with thinking slashdot participants.
plenty of real attacks on MS business now, but looking at this dispassionately:
Would you rather keep your documents on the local machine or trust google with everything? Please send your response via GMAIL so they can keep the progression of discourse clear.
The only reason why people use an OS these days is to interact with local files,
which is a good reason to keep using the OS... but I don't see docs & mp3s as the only thing you want to keep on your box & out of the internet's hands... taxes, financial stuff, etc... and I'm not at all willing to say that the only thing people need a computer for is internet access. People have been pronouncing the end of MS with similiar arguments for at least a decade now (anyone here want to raise their hands for "the net is the computer"?). it just doesn't feel like it's happening.
apple is cool. and pretentious. and expensive. and limited. they're not going to win this. it's going to be *ux (nothing jobs produces counts) or it's going to be some cell phone revolution that doesn't even make sense yet.
note that the other part of the driver problem came from enforcing higher standards for inbox drivers. IHVs had to provide source code (new for vista), pass the same set of internal tests that exist for MS-produced drivers and agree to the 7-year support lifecycle for the inbox driver.
you could see a large chunk of the IHV market being less than enthusiastic about supporting today's work 7 years from now.
and say Vista runs well on low end chips, just to help an investor report
I didn't see this while reading through the email. I see that Microsoft shot itself in the foot & diluted it's "vista capable" branding by losing the Aero support requirement. I do not disagree that with the stance that this was stupid.
because M$ still lets it run as root and not need physical password entry to install or run a program
They really get it from both sides here. UAC (the security-ish action-confirmation popup) is derided as either inadequate (they don't force a password, just acceptance for full admins) or as oppressive, frightening and confusing. I suppose that it's both, but the option is to make it more secure (and frightening, and then people will turn it off) or less secure (ie, disable it by default) and then it's useless.
some reason, other than monopolistic domination and pre-installation as a reason that anyone would want Vista.
Familiarity, clear support paths, compatibility (yes it breaks some xp apps, but not many) and the strongest device and app support on the market. Having "comparable" or "equivalent" items available for non-windows things doesn't help, people like things they are used to.
It's still more accessible than ubuntu (yes, yes, ubuntu cool, no disagreement)
it's less pretentious and expensive than anything by apple (i still have to like Dashboard Confessional to own a macbook, right?)
And you an get to the same places via windows (lenovo x300 vs macbook air, etc).
I am glad to say that Vista really is the new Edsel.
[Windows] requires more and deeper technical support
That seems non-obvious. When did Linux become renowned for it's ease of use? What about Windows (documented in a billion books, used by support staffs around the world, blah blah blah) provides less accessible support than Linux, which is documented here and in a long series of books with funny animals on the cover?
To my mind, Windows seems like an expensive and unneeded distraction for these children.
It would be better to give the the benefit of an OS with a steadily-miniscule market share used by a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction of the computing population? I don't see how your arguments against windows really make for a compelling argument in favor of linux. I do like the tone (stop windows, think of the children) but mostly I'm thinking these kids need iPhones.
In nt4 sp2 Microsoft added a bevy of features; the net effect of this was that they spent nt4 sp3 re-stabilizing the OS. The experience from this release led to a policy preventing feature creep in service pack releases.
The objection to Vista sp1 (that they haven't added features) is likely attributable to that policy change. The goals for the service pack are all around stabilization, reliability and performance, none of which are aided by new widgets.
I'm happy with it, rc1 is running well. The service pack fixed the issue that was killing vista for me (around trustedinstaller eating my processor) and gave me back a functional OS.
People are looking for computers more and more like appliances.
Microsoft (it turns out) is just a software company. It has good ideas and bad ones, and (for good or ill) Windows is more and more a platform stabilized/planned by committee. This sounds terrible to people who like widgets and fiddley-bits (i count myself in their number) but it's better for the public, I think.
How many cars have you climbed into lately without wailing about the lack of innovation in steering wheels and pedals? Would it be way cool if the next Ford came out with a tank-style lever system rather than a steering wheel?!? No... it would suck and people would kill themselves.
So to some extent it is a good thing (you don't want to change something that is starting to pass the "mom" test too readily).... and you can find innovation at Microsoft without looking too hard.
You just need to look further than Windows.
I'd suggest that the list above doesn't give credit where it's due. That stupid paperclip (clippy!) that was hated by everyone? It was a new form of interface for relating to users in terms that they were prepared to understand. That it was heavy handed, condescending and clumsy is an implementation issue -- the execution sucked, but the idea was new. Today the excitement and the "try this see if it sticks" innovation is online. Look at http://popfly.ms/ for something current, cool and interesting.
But, imagine my surprise when I looked about in the general gaming chatter online, especially here on Slashdot, and find out that apparently the only people who like Halo are dumbass pothead jocks and frat boys
...or maybe even with karma filtering the average slashdot post you read is a waste of electrons...:)
I love Halo. I (like you) will buy it just to play on a friend's 360. I met Bungie with Halo and after playing through it I had to go back to Marathon to see what else they've done. There's a story there that I enjoy. There's enough sci-fi standard cameos to make me feel at home (love you niven, heinlein). The weapon choices make it interesting and co-op means I don't sit alone cussing at it for hours, I do it with a friend & have the chance to expand my vocabulary. I've got 2 kids, a wife and a job that I work at more than I should... but this is worthwhile.
Now that consumer versions of Vista are not bootable
The consumer versions are bootable. Random guy uphill in this thread that had trouble booting was using corporate (volume license) media.
I can't think of any other reason for Microsoft to do this nonsense.
Maybe for the same reason features don't get implemented in any manufacturing environment...? Lack of time/resources/etc... Despite the "oh geez those fuckers" pretext to these comments, the functionality in question is pretty obscure. This doesn't pass the "would your mom miss it" test for critical functionality.
I believe you overestimate the impact of this change.
Every Vista installation (even upgrades) are clean installs to some extent (certainly more than XP installs were). During the installation process all the old crap (prog files, docs & settings, windows, etc) is moved out of the way. If you're doing an "upgrade" then after some processing chunks are put back. If you're not doing an upgrade (the upgrade bits allow clean install, you just have to run it from an existing OS) then the "clean" install would be comparable to a format & install of XP media -- the only difference is that your old %windir% is sitting in some stash directory on the drive.
The bottom line is that this is a minor inconvenience for a tiny subset of people. When you're as big as microsoft any fraction of your audience is a lot of people... but it's still going to be a tiny group.
And what do you think they've been doing since wrapping up the code for final vista bits last year? They had what... 10,000 engineers on Vista. You think a few of them found a bug or two worth fixing? Every fix released on Windows Update ends up in a service pack. Yes, there are fixes. Yes, there are still fixes coming out for XP and it's been 6 years since that release.
Should the headline be: "Haha MS is planning to release a service pack"? How is this news?
The guys blogging about this thing say that the laptops are coming from AMD...? and yet it's MS that's trying to "bribe".
A bribe requires quid pro quo. Everyone is agreeing that there is none here -- bloggers who have been writing about MS are getting a machine that they can blog about Vista from. New hardware sporting something current enough to run the newest OS from redmond.
there is no bribe here. there is an ethical issue for the bloggers who receive them, but it's not a big one. Disclose that you received it and enjoy... or return it.
I felt like I should make some kind of venn diagram to explain this, but then I also wanted some kind of curve to grade on...:)
As long as the bulk of the world sees MS as the best option they will remain the mainstay of commercial software.
Yeah, I don't know about that. Win2k was nice, XP was win2k with some shiny slapped on. As for Vista it appears that most noticeable differences between it and XP are yet more shiny and an appetite for expensive hardware. Improvements maybe, but the curve has shallowed out a hell of a lot in the last 6 years.
Particularly along the security front (where MS seems to have got religion) the OS iteration cycle is showing dramatic improvement. XP Sp2 marked an important milestone for the MS viewpoint -- that's where the default really changed in favor of security rather than comfort. They've continued that trend in Vista, we'll have to see if it wins any converts.:)...or maybe (the more realistic goal for client desktops I suppose) it could just delay the erosion of the base.
Here's the positive thing to say about MS. Their software is the best on the market....for certain definitions of "best"...
"Best" in this case means -the software that most consistently works well (argue with this later)* -the software that provides a consistent interface -the software that is consistently localized into your language -the software that is backed by a company you can find (not "realfines0ftware.com", etc)
MS is the aggregate of many aggravations, but most people (no, really) will agree with the above. Yes, MS screws up. Yes, some of their software has issues. But MS is the big supplier of consistent, functional tools to get the job done. Once your toyota works for you, you might not want to buy a hyundai, a jeep and a fiat to figure out if they could too. Particularly if you've ever purchased a fiat.
You need to pick a best that matters.
*re: the "most consistently works well" line... you can argue specifics, but if you use a PC the best software comes from MS. The rest of the software that the public sees... is crap. It's -their LOB DOS app that still runs in a command window on XP. -the chat client that spews adds at them -the antivirus software that constantly asks them to upgrade their subscription...
All horrible experiences. There are plenty of reasons to bitch about MS, but if you balance it out I think you find:
-the software consistently works better -the software has consistently improved (win2k -> xp, xp -> sp2, sp2 -> vista...)
Ah, the "irrational Microsoft basher" fallacy. I haven't been accused of that one in a while.
Antitrust complaints around everything MS seem knee-jerk to me. That's what brings to mind the flail-at-ms image for me...
With XNA, Microsoft is leveraging their Windows monopoly to artificially boost the Xbox. Think about it: if you are a game developer, whose platform looks the most appealing? Sony and Nintendo can't give you a platform that includes 95% of the desktop PC market. Only Microsoft can. And that, my friend, is what anti-trust laws are all about: protecting people and businesses from those who try to abuse their position in the marketplace.
That's a rational argument -- thank you.:) They're in short supply on/. I disagree that MS has a built-into-windows advantage here.
XNA allows someone to build something for 360 & windows, sure... but there is nothing stopping Sony from producing the same thing, right? In this case the only leverage that MS is getting out of it's windows franchise is via releasing tools on top of it. Sony can release their SDK for little or nothing to allow the same people to start developing for their platform. Sony could also (if they had the urge) invest in creating a development structure that spanned hardware platforms, or enable the same things on windows.
MS has something good with the directX/xbox platforms... but they were created independent of the windows platform in a process that anyone can duplicate with a little bit of time and money. Sony certainly has both.
Slashdot Mirror
every visit to /. I find myself arguing with the angry internet hivemind. Here I'm responding to an anonymous coward, but still feel the need to point out that the comments here have flow into fantasy.
Go read Danny Sullivans' articles - he details how the results are different, bing is not copying google and how google uses their toolbar in similiar ways. This is a tempest in a teakettle. Find something real to fight.
Hugs, Anonymous cowards - I just want to love you with the data.
Did y'all read these articles? Danny Sullivan went back over this exhaustively.
The "underhanded" things Google accused Bing of doing to get clickstream data? Google does the same things, with the same disclosure.
The "cheating" around click results? Complete BS.
Charges of "industrial espionage" based on public data? Gibberish. read the articles, then argue with me.
Cool.
I love the voice of reason when it posts. :)
Ok, so this is completely BS. I'm sharing youtube links with the wife next to me, and she's not enjoying it (so I know they got through)... If I want read make-believe "facts" I'll go read wikipedia or foxnews.com like everyone else.
Messenger is sending youtube links just fine for me. I believe myself over slashdot.
I love that slashdot is still fighting MS, regardless of what they do. This is an announcement for a private beta to sync data between devices -- and the response is all piss & vinegar about how someone else might have sync'd (sank? sunk?) data first.
Genius, someone tag that with "insightful".
Where are the responsible posters? I miss arguments with thinking slashdot participants.
Would you rather keep your documents on the local machine or trust google with everything? Please send your response via GMAIL so they can keep the progression of discourse clear.
which is a good reason to keep using the OS... but I don't see docs & mp3s as the only thing you want to keep on your box & out of the internet's hands... taxes, financial stuff, etc... and I'm not at all willing to say that the only thing people need a computer for is internet access. People have been pronouncing the end of MS with similiar arguments for at least a decade now (anyone here want to raise their hands for "the net is the computer"?). it just doesn't feel like it's happening.
apple is cool. and pretentious. and expensive. and limited. they're not going to win this. it's going to be *ux (nothing jobs produces counts) or it's going to be some cell phone revolution that doesn't even make sense yet.
you could see a large chunk of the IHV market being less than enthusiastic about supporting today's work 7 years from now.
It's still more accessible than ubuntu (yes, yes, ubuntu cool, no disagreement)
it's less pretentious and expensive than anything by apple (i still have to like Dashboard Confessional to own a macbook, right?)
And you an get to the same places via windows (lenovo x300 vs macbook air, etc).
Ouch. I kinda disagree -- the edsel had flairnote that they just offered a fix to allow the older spreadsheet format to work after the update.
Ahh good, I can help with that.
Initial purchase? No argument.
That seems non-obvious. When did Linux become renowned for it's ease of use? What about Windows (documented in a billion books, used by support staffs around the world, blah blah blah) provides less accessible support than Linux, which is documented here and in a long series of books with funny animals on the cover?
It would be better to give the the benefit of an OS with a steadily-miniscule market share used by a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction of the computing population? I don't see how your arguments against windows really make for a compelling argument in favor of linux. I do like the tone (stop windows, think of the children) but mostly I'm thinking these kids need iPhones.
In nt4 sp2 Microsoft added a bevy of features; the net effect of this was that they spent nt4 sp3 re-stabilizing the OS. The experience from this release led to a policy preventing feature creep in service pack releases.
The objection to Vista sp1 (that they haven't added features) is likely attributable to that policy change. The goals for the service pack are all around stabilization, reliability and performance, none of which are aided by new widgets.
I'm happy with it, rc1 is running well. The service pack fixed the issue that was killing vista for me (around trustedinstaller eating my processor) and gave me back a functional OS.
hallelujah.
...was shooting for funny... :)
They're expecting you to buy a new ipod/iphone/iWhatever each year. Why should the date change? That's the 2007 model!
Thanks MS!
Microsoft (it turns out) is just a software company. It has good ideas and bad ones, and (for good or ill) Windows is more and more a platform stabilized/planned by committee. This sounds terrible to people who like widgets and fiddley-bits (i count myself in their number) but it's better for the public, I think.
How many cars have you climbed into lately without wailing about the lack of innovation in steering wheels and pedals? Would it be way cool if the next Ford came out with a tank-style lever system rather than a steering wheel?!? No... it would suck and people would kill themselves.
So to some extent it is a good thing (you don't want to change something that is starting to pass the "mom" test too readily).... and you can find innovation at Microsoft without looking too hard.
You just need to look further than Windows.
I'd suggest that the list above doesn't give credit where it's due. That stupid paperclip (clippy!) that was hated by everyone? It was a new form of interface for relating to users in terms that they were prepared to understand. That it was heavy handed, condescending and clumsy is an implementation issue -- the execution sucked, but the idea was new. Today the excitement and the "try this see if it sticks" innovation is online. Look at http://popfly.ms/ for something current, cool and interesting.
I love Halo. I (like you) will buy it just to play on a friend's 360. I met Bungie with Halo and after playing through it I had to go back to Marathon to see what else they've done. There's a story there that I enjoy. There's enough sci-fi standard cameos to make me feel at home (love you niven, heinlein). The weapon choices make it interesting and co-op means I don't sit alone cussing at it for hours, I do it with a friend & have the chance to expand my vocabulary. I've got 2 kids, a wife and a job that I work at more than I should... but this is worthwhile.
mmmm. Love.
I believe you overestimate the impact of this change.
Every Vista installation (even upgrades) are clean installs to some extent (certainly more than XP installs were). During the installation process all the old crap (prog files, docs & settings, windows, etc) is moved out of the way. If you're doing an "upgrade" then after some processing chunks are put back. If you're not doing an upgrade (the upgrade bits allow clean install, you just have to run it from an existing OS) then the "clean" install would be comparable to a format & install of XP media -- the only difference is that your old %windir% is sitting in some stash directory on the drive.
The bottom line is that this is a minor inconvenience for a tiny subset of people. When you're as big as microsoft any fraction of your audience is a lot of people... but it's still going to be a tiny group.
And what do you think they've been doing since wrapping up the code for final vista bits last year? They had what... 10,000 engineers on Vista. You think a few of them found a bug or two worth fixing? Every fix released on Windows Update ends up in a service pack. Yes, there are fixes. Yes, there are still fixes coming out for XP and it's been 6 years since that release.
Should the headline be: "Haha MS is planning to release a service pack"?
How is this news?
The guys blogging about this thing say that the laptops are coming from AMD...? and yet it's MS that's trying to "bribe".
A bribe requires quid pro quo. Everyone is agreeing that there is none here -- bloggers who have been writing about MS are getting a machine that they can blog about Vista from. New hardware sporting something current enough to run the newest OS from redmond.
there is no bribe here. there is an ethical issue for the bloggers who receive them, but it's not a big one. Disclose that you received it and enjoy... or return it.
As long as the bulk of the world sees MS as the best option they will remain the mainstay of commercial software.
Particularly along the security front (where MS seems to have got religion) the OS iteration cycle is showing dramatic improvement. XP Sp2 marked an important milestone for the MS viewpoint -- that's where the default really changed in favor of security rather than comfort. They've continued that trend in Vista, we'll have to see if it wins any converts.
Here's the positive thing to say about MS. Their software is the best on the market. ...for certain definitions of "best"...
"Best" in this case means
-the software that most consistently works well (argue with this later)*
-the software that provides a consistent interface
-the software that is consistently localized into your language
-the software that is backed by a company you can find (not "realfines0ftware.com", etc)
MS is the aggregate of many aggravations, but most people (no, really) will agree with the above. Yes, MS screws up. Yes, some of their software has issues. But MS is the big supplier of consistent, functional tools to get the job done. Once your toyota works for you, you might not want to buy a hyundai, a jeep and a fiat to figure out if they could too. Particularly if you've ever purchased a fiat.
You need to pick a best that matters.
*re: the "most consistently works well" line... you can argue specifics, but if you use a PC the best software comes from MS. The rest of the software that the public sees... is crap. It's
-their LOB DOS app that still runs in a command window on XP.
-the chat client that spews adds at them
-the antivirus software that constantly asks them to upgrade their subscription...
All horrible experiences. There are plenty of reasons to bitch about MS, but if you balance it out I think you find:
-the software consistently works better
-the software has consistently improved (win2k -> xp, xp -> sp2, sp2 -> vista...)
my $.02
Antitrust complaints around everything MS seem knee-jerk to me. That's what brings to mind the flail-at-ms image for me...
That's a rational argument -- thank you.
XNA allows someone to build something for 360 & windows, sure... but there is nothing stopping Sony from producing the same thing, right? In this case the only leverage that MS is getting out of it's windows franchise is via releasing tools on top of it. Sony can release their SDK for little or nothing to allow the same people to start developing for their platform. Sony could also (if they had the urge) invest in creating a development structure that spanned hardware platforms, or enable the same things on windows.
MS has something good with the directX/xbox platforms... but they were created independent of the windows platform in a process that anyone can duplicate with a little bit of time and money. Sony certainly has both.