OLPC, Microsoft Working Toward Dual-Boot XO Laptops

Ian Lamont writes "The OLPC Project and Microsoft are developing a dual-boot system to put both Linux and Windows on the laptops, according to an interview with Nicholas Negroponte. The article is thin on details, as the OLPC/Microsoft talks are apparently at an early stage. Could this be the end of the OS wars in Nigeria and other developing countries?" While Microsoft has been working on an OLPC-capable version of Windows for some time now, the interesting thing here is the dual-booting provision, rather than forcing users into an either-or choice.

Comments

XO is the look on my face

[Anonymous Coward]

when Bill Gates rams my butthole!!

Re:XO is the look on my face

[ludditetechnologies]

Cant laugh out load cause I'll wake my gf, goddamn I want to :)

Re:XO is the look on my face

[professional_troll]

Really? You shouldn't be able to feel anything, after all do you know how the name Micro-soft came from right?

Re:XO is the look on my face

[Anonymous Coward]

C:

see colon, enter

Re:XO is the look on my face

[jordg]

-- Microsoft has embraced the open-source community over the past few years in a very different way than before

Get your hand off my ass!

Re:XO is the look on my face

[etwills]

when Bill Gates rams my butthole!!

...not just your face.

(now half grossed out thanks to this prompting me to think of goatse at work, and half impressed that goatse in two bytes is pretty impressive compression...)

Re:XO is the look on my face

[PopeRatzo]

If you have to explain it, it's not that good.

Delusional

[eldavojohn]

It's a brand new development for the XO laptops, as the low-cost notebooks are known, and came about because of Microsoft's friendlier attitude toward open-source software. Dear Dan Nystedt of ComputerWorld, the English language lacks the proper words that I need to express how wrong you are. I only wish I knew German so I could scream the rest of this post at you.

What caused you to write that sentence, I will never know. Was Stevie B. holding a firearm to your head when you wrote this article? Or simply placing a sack with a large green $ on your desk?

Seriously, this is an all out attack on open source software. They are vying for the young minds of every single child in developing countries. What is so special about this that GRUB or LILO cannot be used for the dual booting? Is Microsoft developing the code to dual boot? I would be shocked if they were.

If you claim Microsoft just wants to make sure the kids get the best operating system for learning, why weren't they handing out free copies of Windows and Office to 3rd world children/schools before the OLPC project started? Because they'd rather give away their product than let a competitor fall into the hearts and minds of these children. Linux has always been free to everybody. Think about it.

Microsoft has embraced the open-source community over the past few years in a very different way than before, Negroponte said. "And that really helps, because it's become a little bit less religious than it was a few years ago and that's really good. In the end, I think, the more people that have software and hardware out there, the better." Has the whole world gone mad? I'm all for getting the children any operating system they want, in fact I'm glad they will have that choice. But to say that Microsoft has embraced the open-source community is ... strange at best. They may have created their own pseudo-open source community within their company but little more.

Those 419 patent violation accusations ... that's "embracing" someone?

It may have become a little less religious recently but only so far as the ends justify Microsoft's means. They are interested in profit, nothing more. I would love to applaud them for coming around and realizing that open source software is a viable solution for making money--and even improving a product! But I cannot say that today. They only actively threaten it in underhanded ways.

Re:Delusional

[sm62704]

I think I can decrypt that for you:

Microsoft has embraced the open-source community over the past few years in a very different way than before

My daughter's cats have embraced mice over the past few years in a very different way than before. Previously they would lay the dead mouse by my dining room chair, now they just eat the mouse.

Don't forget Microsoft's mantra: Embrace, extend, extinguish. Much like my daughter's cats; mantra about mice.

Re:Delusional

[Anonymous Coward]

Much like my daughter's cats; mantra about mice. That's a nice analogy. Now I'm going to go home and swallow some heart worm eggs and sit outside Steve Ballmer's office. Does anybody have any butter?

At least my death will not be in vain ...

Re:Delusional

[mixenmaxen]

Mod parent up. He is so spot on right...

Re:Delusional

[Fear the Clam]

Microsoft embraces the open-source community like a dog embraces a leg.

Re:Delusional

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft embraces the open-source community like a dog embraces a leg. So the solution is to get Microsoft "fixed." Got it.

Re:Delusional

[UbuntuDupe]

Okay, here's my best:

Lieber Dan Nystedt von ComputerWorld, die Englische Sprache manglet die rechte Woerter auszusagen, wie falsch Du's hast. Ich wunsche, dass ich Deutsch wusste, damit ich das Reste schreien konnte.

Was Dich das letzte Satz zu schreiben verursacht, weiss ich nicht. Sie kampfen fuer die junge Sinne von jedem Kind in entwicklungen Laendern. Was ist so besonders ueber dies das GRUB oder LILO fuer Dualboot nicht koennen bentutzt werden? Schreibt Microsft das Code fuer Dualboot? Das waere mir eine Ueberraschung.

Wenn Du behaupst, Microsft will nur, das die Kinder das beste OS fuer lernen bekommst, warum geben sie keine kostenlose Kopien von Windows und Office zur dritte Weltlichen Kindern bevor die OLPC angefangen hat? Weil sie lieber die Ware ausgeben wuerde, als ein Gegner in die Herzen und Sinnen den Kindern fallen lassen. Linux ist immer jedem frei gewesen. Denk daran.

Okay, that's enough for now.

Re:Delusional

[jav1231]

There's a lot of unknowns here. Will this be a stripped / unlicensed version or what?
He says, "We are working with them very closely to make a dual-boot system so that, like on an Apple, you can boot either one up."
But Apple doesn't provide Windows for you.
It would appear that Negroponte is in need of further funding. That would explain the Intel involvement. Their departure has been noted. Now Microsoft is on board, no doubt bringing cash. Personally, I think this is a mistake. There are millions of PC's with Windows already on them. M$ has had 2 decades to do this. They are far less concerned about getting Windows into the hands of the needy and more concerned with making sure no one runs any other OS but Windows. Get that crack into a new generation so we can ensure our business model. Good business you say? Maybe. But OLPC was supposed to be about charity, not business.

Re:Delusional

[AngryLlama]

Or you could say, "In vein."

Re:Delusional

[Locutus]

for a good example of this, there was the Thailand laptop deal. In that, HP was providing Thailand with inexpensive laptops with Linux and OSS on it and the government was providing them cheaply to the public. This was such a hit that HP could not keep up with the orders and so Dell was brought in. Microsoft caught wind of this and contacted the Thai government. Soon after, Linux and OSS was replace with a crippled version of Windows and MS Office at what was claimed to $3/laptop. There was likely also provided some millions in donated training by Microsoft or something like that to help fund this shift.

So yup, Microsoft's involvement is only reactionary because the project leveraged the cost savings and efficiencies of Linux and OSS. From what I've heard, even the Bill/Melinda Gates Foundation computer donations come with restrictions on usage of Linux and OSS. So they still want Linux and OSS destroyed and helping kids is only PR. IMO.

LoB

Re:Delusional

[jav1231]

Yeah. I've said it more than once. Microsoft is inherently evil. Like kicking kittens.

Re:Delusional

[bugs2squash]

I don't see what the children gain or lose from a dual boot system.

It seems to me that the 'view code' button will still be able to show application source code under windows, and that etoys-like environments etc. can be easily supported in Windows (look at scratch). After all - it's not the OS you're looking at, it's the application.

I also don't see what the OLPC project has to lose - MS will pump in money and quit blocking the distribution of these devices by spreading FUD.

Surely though, MS would do better to fill the memory that XP would take up with applications that actually add something to the user experience rather than supplant something that's perfectly adequate already.

It saddens me that MS will likely push to have the linux side of the Flash wiped prior to deployment. But I think Negroponte has made a calculated choice to make MS a backer not an enemy and focus on facilitating education for the children. I'm sure he's able to exert some pressure, even on the mighty MS.

Re:Delusional

[Anonymous Coward]

Open Source, Linux and all the Hikikomori BS, which you and the other 0.8% of the computers users that have Linux installed defend is just like Obama: beautiful words and no real advantage, so it is going nowhere.
That is why all the corporations are dropping all their Open Source installs and going back to Microsoft or even looking for Apple. So stop with your cry-baby ranting and go back to play Tetris on your Linux machine because this is the only game you can play on it.

Re:Delusional

[Anonymous Coward]

Wonder if those people installs pirated windows on them though. In indonesia some lower end laptop are shipped with freedos.... i think presumably sop people can install their own os of choice, which I wager is pirated windows.

Re:Delusional

[ThePromenader]

I'm so glad to read the above. I've really never understood why few seem to realise that MS's "claiming young minds" approach is practically the only reason it has its fortune today; By "young minds" I mean also the computer-unsavvy, especially first-time users.

This ~could~ be tolerable would MS have a decent product, but frankly, the thought of a company making damn certain that its unoriginal, condescending, underdeveloped, buggy, lifetime cost-and-licence-laden software is the first thing a child sees -- to better not learn anything better first -- makes me... ugh. One can't go much lower.

I find this MS-OLPC "reconciliation" move rather puzzling though. In an earlier article also mentioned here, it was Intel reps doing the MS pushing -- but now Negroponte is dealing with MS directly? I also don't understand how the same sees sense in making a normally low-cost computer more expensive with extra hardware/configuration needed for a dual boot system -- we must assume that it is MS alone funding this. Are they really that desperate to claim young minds -- desperate enough to even target the young minds of underdeveloped nations?

I was at first puzzled at MS' accepting to have its wares installed alongside Linux distros, but in comparing MS's condescending playskool interface (and 'search dog') to Ubuntu and other *nix desktops, all becomes quite clear: which do you think children will prefer? I'm sure that's why MS designed it's OS that way; this is conniving to the extreme. Rather than funding such underhanded endeavours, MS, use your billions to make a decent OS already -- it's not time that you've been lacking, you gits!

Re:Delusional

[ozmanjusri]

Will this be a stripped / unlicensed version or what?

Yep, interesting. Sugar is a lot more than just an OS.

Microsoft wouldn't want to be seen as the loser in a competition like this, so how will Microsoft provide all the additional functionality? Bundle Works?

They'll also need to address the malware aspect, and do so in the very limited space available on the XO. If they manage to do that, they'll also have to be careful to cripple it so it won't run on ordinary PCs. A stripped down, low cost, lightweight OS that would install on standard X86 hardware and run existing PE apps would eat Vista for breakfast.

Re:Delusional

[fatwilbur]

Ahh, the world of slashdot is full of brilliant academics so I would hope you can understand this point: Microsoft is a Business. An what does this mean? Their obligations are to shareholders, not what you or I think is best. In that regard, they MUST do everything they can to ensure their flagship product, Windows, maintains domination of the marketplace.

I think if you were intelligent at all, you would do the exact same things as current MS management if you were in their shoes. You may think it's underhanded, but it's in Microsoft's best interests so that is all that matters.

It would be interesting to know how many people on here that bitch about MS actual hold mutual funds with significant positions in Microsoft. I bet it would be a lot larger than you think...

Re:Delusional

[Anonymous Coward]

They actually have been giving away free software, or deeply discounted, to school systems. Of course this is in the US of A.

A class action lawsuit accusing overpricing results in MS proposal to give free software to schools. "In addition to all of these hard-dollar commitments, Microsoft has also agreed to provide free software to eligible schools. The value of this software can only be estimated as it depends on the volume requested by schools, but it may exceed $500 million valued at Microsoft's heavily
discounted academic prices." Yeah, because it costs them money to give away fre software?
http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/200111/msg00294.html

"Unfortunately, as much as the proposal would no doubt help schools, it creates a situation where Microsoft isn't so much paying a penalty for monopolistic abuses, but is instead being allowed to spend $1 billion to extend their reach into the hotly contested education market"
http://db.tidbits.com/article/6645

Here's south africa, where they claim the plan had been in the works before the SA government announced support for open-source:
http://www.itweb.co.za/sections/computing/2002/0202151028.asp?S=Computing&A=COM&O=FRGN

Oh, I guess that means you were right.

Re:Delusional

[Locutus]

yup, it's even legal in some cases but what I would like is that this becomes public knowledge. People need to know that what is being pushed as such great products are primarily economically forced onto the market at the expense of better, faster, cheaper alternatives. I think you would agree that way too many just think Microsoft is in the position they are in because they make a better product. The facts show that this is not the case and often Microsoft has to loose billions in order to protect the position they hold in the market.

They constantly try to hide the facts of these money losing and monopoly protecting deals. That needs to be exposed so the public can make informed choices. IMO.

LoB

Re:Delusional

[callmetheraven]

If you've read the specs on the XO machines, you know that they're about as powerful as a mainstream desktop machine in about 1998.

Can you imagine how well M$'s uber-bloat OS's will run on these little boxen? If you asked me, let M$ put Windows on the XO, so that all the little children of the world can see that it's such a resource hog it converts your neato XO into a thrashing paperweight.

Re:Delusional

[AlHunt]

>But OLPC was supposed to be about charity, not business.

And yet, in the end, charities are still businesses with bills to pay just like for-profits. No surprise if OLPC is getting an infusion of cash from MS.

Re:Delusional

[jesterzog]

From what I've heard, even the Bill/Melinda Gates Foundation computer donations come with restrictions on usage of Linux and OSS. So they still want Linux and OSS destroyed and helping kids is only PR. IMO.

I haven't seen the restrictions to which you're referring, but this could easily be the case if the foundation isn't actually donating real money. It could just as easily be leveraging donations from Microsoft and counting the donation amount as the retail value of any software that's used, in which case it's completely understandable that there would be restrictions on using non-Microsoft software.

Still blatant PR of course, but maybe not with destruction of OSS being the number one priority. It's really difficult to tell without knowing exactly what the donations are and what is stated about the restrictions.

Re:Delusional

[jackhidary]

I am lucky enough to have one of the new XO laptops from olpc. this device is nothing short of revolutionary. more thoughtful design went into this object than the boeing 777. it is not just about the hardware. this software -with its many opportunities for kids to program and experiment - will lead to even further innovation. intel is acting like a lumbering elephant in its heavy-footed approach on this. sad but predictable. as for msft and the dual boot concept - i guarantee that kids will try windows once and reject it as slow, ponderous and inflexible. when you see the software on the linux boot you will not want to go back.

Re:Delusional

[Anonymous Coward]

From what I've heard, even the Bill/Melinda Gates Foundation computer donations come with restrictions on usage of Linux and OSS. I've searched most of the Gates foundation website looking for any such restriction and found none. Sources plz?

Re:Delusional

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

M$... uber.. boxen... The only things missing here are mention of "virii" and a reference to "Windoze"...

Re:Delusional

[Locutus]

did you really expect to see that there? I heard something to the fact from a library employee I spoke with when trying to propose increasing their computer access seats with multi-headed Linux boxes. I also read this in a post to another forum and IMO, it put more credibility to what the library employee had said.

Again, you will not find these kinds of restrictions posted on any Microsoft or B/M Gates Foundation docs. They are not that dumb. You'll have to ask around and find someone who's willing to say this to you since it is probably part of an NDA tied to such deals. For instance, just try and ask Dell why they are not doing any print advertising of their Linux computers? hint: Microsoft sent out instructions to their OEM partners that they were allowed to provide Linux solutions when customers asked but they were not to lead with Linux. ie, they could not push Linux solutions, just provide them if/when customers asked them for it. We found this out from a leaked memo from inside Microsoft and it was not found searching any Microsoft web site.

LoB

Um.. . .

[Limburgher]

. . .why would MS want one that did that? To show the world how poorly Windows compares to Linux on equal hardware?

Re:Um.. . .

[kellyb9]

From what I recall, the version of Linux running on the OLPC machine is slightly watered down because of hardware limitations. I doubt those computers will be running Vista Ultimate. It's more likely they'd too be running a watered down version of Windows.

Re:Um.. . .

[k33l0r]

No, it's to get the little kiddies really, really confused. You think that an under ten year old will understand why he has to play around with two different systems?

Re:Um.. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I' guess its not his fault that he's ignorant and doesn't see the forest from the trees. He's like the rest of the lemmings that jump of the cliff and scream "I love windows" all the way to their death! LOL Retards....

Re:Um.. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

A) Dual booting is rarely dual. When someone gets going with one OS, the other one gets very little use. This will force what will amount to a one-time choice for the vast majority of users.

B) As we see in the rest of the computing world, when a choice of OS is given the vast majority of people will go with one OS and the other OSs will have only a small percentage of users. There are a lot of reasons for this that have nothing to do with dirty tricks by Microsoft. Probably the biggest reason for this is that people like using the same kind of computer as their friends, but "picking a 'winner,' availability of the software you want, and having a larger pool of knowledgeable assistance all come into play.

C) I don't really care what OS Nigerians use as long as they don't have an email client. I don't know how many additional "I need to move $4 million dollars with your assistance" emails it will take to destroy all the good Karma OLPC is generating, but there is a limit.... yesiree, there is a limit.

Re:Um.. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Now I'm sorry that there's no "-1 stupid" mod point...

Re:Um.. . .

[UnxMully]

Cue the appearance of 100 million unsold copies of Windows ME.

Re:Um.. . .

[JohnVanVliet]

i am not even sure the hardware will handle windows 98 let alone a watered down win xp

Re:Um.. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

if that's the case, why wouldn't we want them to try? show everyone who horrible thier software is right?

Re:Um.. . .

[ScrappyLaptop]

Or, perhaps WinCE (or whatever is the current name; I've not kept up with it since the Jornada 720 days)?

Re:Um.. . .

[Nikker]

It makes you wonder doesn't it. Why is it that after all this technology, prosperity and advancement we still haven't developed the 3rd world?

Re:Um.. . .

[FireFury03]

When will people learn that only a few people really care about Linux?

Actually, I think this could be an interesting experiment - hand dual-boot Linux/XP machines to a bunch of kids who have never seen a computer before, leave them at it for a year or so and see which OS they use out of choice.

Re:Um.. . .

[Hognoxious]

We still haven't? Don't you mean they still haven't? Just take a look at Kenya. It's the new Sudan.

Re:Um.. . .

[marcello_dl]

The one with better games.

Re:Um.. . .

[kellyb9]

...copies of Windows ME. Not even underprivledged children from third world countries would want THAT!

Re:Um.. . .

[UnxMully]

... no, they'd deserve far better.

Re:Um.. . .

[jc42]

Why is it that after all this technology, prosperity and advancement we still haven't developed the 3rd world?

Because we like having a lot of poor people around who will work for us at low wages.

Oh; that was a rhetorical question, wasn't it. Forget I said anything ...

So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[Kazoo the Clown]

Microsoft may figure that if the OLPC can boot to either OS that users may end up preferring Windows over Linux. And for most users they may very well be correct. In addition, they will be able to more easily show off areas where Windows excels in comparison with Linux.

Re:So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[poetmatt]

Please, mod parent funny for "Where windows excels in comparison with Linux". I want my UT3 on OLPC as well! I'm sure the specs are close enough! Or maybe we can play Zero Wing on it! /snicker

Re:So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[SCHecklerX]

But the entire point of the OLPC is education. A computer that shows you its code, so you can learn and create with it. This is entirely the opposite of EVERYTHING M$ does. Programming aside, just being able to customize how you use the damned thing is difficult in Microsoft's world. They. don't. get. it.

Re:So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[edwardpickman]

Don't worry Negroponte is no fool he's insisting they dual boot to a full copy of Vista.

Re:So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[ChatHuant]

But the entire point of the OLPC is education. A computer that shows you its code, so you can learn and create with it.

That's a very Slashdotesque point of view and a good example of missing the forest because of one tree. You need to see the source only if you want the kid to become a programmer or maybe a sysadmin. The third world countries targeted by the OLPC have much higher and more urgent priorities. They need educated people in many other areas, not only programming. They need better, more knowledgeable farmers, workers, manufacturers, engineers, teachers, physicians, accountants, even managers and lawyers. Very, very few of the kids playing and learning now in those countries need bash or python. They do need however to learn how not to dig the outhouse near the well, how to avoid malaria, how to get more wheat out of their crops, how to start a business, how to sell their product in an increasingly globalized world. They need to learn how to access expertise already existing elsewhere, and they need to be able to do so easily. I'd argue that they even need to learn Windows, and thus get access to a whole variety of jobs where they use computers (non-programming positions, of course).

The source code is irrelevant for all those scenarios, which I believe are the core ones for the OLPC project.

Re:So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[JohnVanVliet]

but olpc needs to do this for the LEAST $$$$ cash possible

Re:So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[aweraw]

I'd argue that they even need to learn Windows

Do they _really_ need to learn Windows, or just basic computing concepts? I'd wager that the later is far more useful than learning a specific OS.

When you say the source code is irrelevent in all those "urgent priorities", I say that windows is also - The only requirement is that it displays graphics and text on the screen, so there's absolutly no reason I can see why they couldn't learn all those things with a non-Windows OS.

Re:So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[ChatHuant]

Do they _really_ need to learn Windows, or just basic computing concepts?

I'm not sure what you mean, but the discussion started with the "show source" requirement, so I'll assume you don't include everyday computer usage as a computer concept, even basic.

Here, on Slashdot, we tend to exaggerate the importance of computer knowledge. Basic computing concepts (such as the capability to read/write a program or a script) are needed for engineers, system administrators, certainly for programmers, and a few others. But there are *many* more jobs where familiarity with Windows and Office is useful or even essential, while knowledge of computing theory and programming (even at a basic level) is not. Familiarity with Excel may for example make the difference between being hired for a secretarial position or not. So yes, pragmatically speaking, learning how to *use* (not program) Windows could be more useful for a poor 3rd world kid than getting source code access.

The only requirement is that it displays graphics and text on the screen, so there's absolutly no reason I can see why they couldn't learn all those things with a non-Windows OS

Agreed - but that's a different issue. My argument was not OS related; I was saying that the usefulness of the OLPC is not given by the capability to see the source code.

Re:So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[Anonymous Coward]

"In addition, they will be able to more easily show off areas where Windows excels in comparison with Linux."
And exactly what areas would that be?

Re:So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[Kazoo the Clown]

I dislike MS as much as the next guy, but if you think there's nothing that Windows does that's better than Linux than you're in denial. And most users could care less if they can look at the code, and wouldn't understand it or have the foggiest idea what to do with it if they did.

Re:So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[Kazoo the Clown]

For starters, how about:

- Availability of 3rd party applications
- Graphics UI performance

I dislike MS as much as the next guy, but I use it because serious bleeding-edge 3D design and video apps are not available for Linux. Show me Linux apps of the caliber of Zbrush, Mudbox, Poser, Real Flow, After Effects CS3, etc., and we'll talk.

And that's just for the sort of apps that I happen to be familiar with-- many categories things are much the same, (show me a serious Sonar, Cubase or Pro Tools contender on Linux)-- a large number of end users are going to be influenced by the availability of off-the-shelf games. Need we start comparing lists of those?

Linux may be acceptable in some areas, and certainly graphics UI performance isn't as bad as it used to be. But if you think Linux does everything better than Windows, you're either seriously deluded or simply ignorant.

Re:So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[Anonymous Coward]

This ignornant, idiotic tirade that gets paraded around by the M$ crowd, just doesn't get it...we need farmers, bankers, doctors, politicians,etc., who CAN and DO know what source code is for, how to modify it, etc. They can easily learn to do this when they are children. It is the M$ mantra to keep people ignorant and dependent. Linux is about breaking the bonds of ignorance and dependence, i.e. FREEDOM, etc., as well as the ability to DESIGN, CREATE, MODIFY, etc., if one desires. In other words, this is an education project, not a keep-them-poor-and-ignorant business model ala M$.

Personally, I'm quite disappointed in Negroponte, and it would appear that he has sold out to M$, etc., resulting in the continuing and future enslavement of the poor.

Rasberries to you, Negroponte, M$ and Intel.

Kudos to AMD, etc. I'll be buying AMD processor computers from now on.

Re:So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[aweraw]

I'm not sure what you mean...

I was mostly responding to the last sentence of your first paragraph, were you say you'd argue that kids in third world countries "need" to learn Windows. I disagree.

Agreed - but that's a different issue. My argument was not OS related; I was saying that the usefulness of the OLPC is not given by the capability to see the source code.

I agree with you that there are more pertinent skills they could learn that would help them more than computer know-how. That said, I believe the ability to view source is a stong point of the XO; It's a feature, that if not present removes opportunities from the owners... sure, maybe only a handfull will really benefit from having the source code available, but how many benefit if it's not available? Zero.

As you say, source availability is not the be all and end all of the OLPC project, but IMO if you remove it, you remove some of the potential benefits it was designed to provide. It's not extremely important, but it is a Good Thing.

Re:So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[JohnBailey]

I dislike MS as much as the next guy, but if you think there's nothing that Windows does that's better than Linux than you're in denial. And most users could care less if they can look at the code, and wouldn't understand it or have the foggiest idea what to do with it if they did. What specifically does Windows do better than Linux? By which I mean Windows the OS, not Windows the platform.

Re:So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, they do need to learn about Windows and about Microsoft. They should be aware of the evil that stalks them and their freedom, and to avoid becoming the spawn of satan. They, and everyone else, can use the power of Linux to defeat the evil empire, but they must know their enemy.

Re:So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[Crayon Kid]

The GP is probably talking about how, for most Windows users, if you move their taskbar their brain explodes. Because that's the extent of what Windows has "thaught" them: to point and click. Which I seriously believe you can train a monkey or a dog to do. On the other hand, if they actually understood something about modern computer desktops, they'd be able to recognize a taskbar for what it is and simply adapt. And as an interesting side effect it wouldn't matter anymore if it was a Windows or Linux desktop.

Re:So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[Kazoo the Clown]

What specifically does Windows do better than Linux? By which I mean Windows the OS, not Windows the platform.

OS or platform, the answer is the same-- attract commercial developers.

Re:So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[JohnBailey]

What specifically does Windows do better than Linux? By which I mean Windows the OS, not Windows the platform. OS or platform, the answer is the same-- attract commercial developers. Not really. The OS is a technical product. It has the job of sitting between the application and the hardware and enabling the user to run the app. It has it's own technical strengths and weaknesses which are not dependent on the number of users or developers.

Re:So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[XereX]

I find this a kind of cocky move by microsoft, they are showing confidence in their product by letting users see it stand side by side with Linux. That being said, I feel that the users will chose the OS that they prefer and that OS will survive the olpc project.

Dual OS on laptop/pesktop

[anandpur]

Where is MS's "trade secret" agreement with Dell etc. that prohibits them from give option for other OS while selling MS Windows. They can sell different Ubuntu and Vista laptops/desktop but you can not choose between either OS on same laptop/desktop.

MS need dual boot on OLPC!

Re:Dual OS on laptop/pesktop

[Anonymous Coward]

pesktop?

Of course MS embraces OSS

[EmbeddedJanitor]

Something like how a python does (snake, not the language).

There is nothing really new in this from the OLPC side, Negreponte has always wanted MS onboard. Any change of heart has been from the MS side. MS was rubbishing OLPC only a few months back.

Just watch

[Anonymous Coward]

Now MS is somehow going to get sued for translating Windows into some African language.

XO is already dual-boot

[Minstrel Boy]

Even without the developer key to unlock OpenFirmware, the XO design supports booting an alternate OS by holding down a button during startup. I have Debian installed on mine.

KeS

Re:XO is already dual-boot

[Scrameustache]

the XO design supports booting an alternate OS by holding down a button during startup. I have Debian installed on mine. Cool! How's that working out for you?

Re:XO is already dual-boot

[Minstrel Boy]

Actually I don't use it very much. It has ended up being much simpler (four yum packages) to just install xfce on the XO Fedora build, and run it in place of Sugar as the window environment. I don't have a profound preference for debian vs Fedora, so it's easier to just leverage the XO kernel/userspace development. It's nice to know I *can* run an alternate OS if needed, but I don't find myself needing to do it as much as I anticipated.

KeS

Re:XO is already dual-boot

[Minstrel Boy]

(shrug)

What can I tell you? It's a documented part of the OpenFirmware in both the shipped and current upgrade version. I was able to install Debian by following a rather trivial set of directions on a XO without developer access. Note that some people are of the mistaken impression that dev access is required, but that is not the case: dev access is only needed to alter OpenFirmware settings or access the OF command prompt to specify arbitrary boot files. You can Google OLPC Debian and come up with the wiki page describing that install.

KeS

Good Move for MS

[kellyb9]

This is a good move finanicially for Microsoft. It should give them significant visibility in these developing countries. On the other hand, it should be a good test for the open source community. They'd be going head to head with MS with people who have legitimately never used either interface. It would be interesting to see which OS they pick.

Re:Good Move for MS

[CambodiaSam]

I can tell you which one they will pick: Microsoft. Here's why, speaking from experience in a 3rd world country: Intellectual Property has ZERO respect. No one enforces it, so as a result, all software is sold at the cost of the CD. They even kindly burn the crack along with the app on the CD. I know of several shops that cater to this market in the town I visit. Remember, not all third world countries are dirt-poor with people starving in the streets. Many have some kind of economy, technology, and even basic infrastructure. Yes, a lot of folks live on $1 a day, but in a place like this, $100 a month is living very well for a family of 4.

So, the local computer shops sell PCs with a ton of apps installed on a Windows base. Why not, it doesn't cost anything! Average price for a used Compaq: about $200 fully loaded. Plus, it's virtually the industry standard OS, so any app you want to run will be tailored for Windows.

For the XO (I also own one), I can see the Windows load displacing the Linux load in no time.

Re:Good Move for MS

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF? Why was this modded troll???

Re:Good Move for MS

[nbucking]

Calling the parent post a troll is down right wrong. Just because the poster is wrong or not does not make him/her a troll. Microsoft is just a company trying to compete. If Linux really had the balls to take on Microsoft, then Linux will figure a way how to compete. So far all competitors of Microsoft seem to just scatter when Microsoft comes along. Corporations are considered equal to a regular person. I personally would love to see linux or Apple show their teeth.

Re:Good Move for MS

[kellyb9]

Thanks for the support - I disagree as well. The only point I was making is that Linux hasn't really faired too well on the desktop, maybe this would be an opportunity to examine some of those things that it's doing wrong. Bottom line, we've all been corrupted by the desktop experience. We have certain preconcieved notions that develop based on our experiences. For example, the "X" in the top right corner closes an application in Windows and in KDE and Gnome. These people have no experience with the desktop, how intuitive will they find these options? My guess is not at all. I think companies pushing Linux should treat this as a case study to developing a more overall intuitive interface.

Oh Wait... I'm not marked as a troll yet... ummmmm.... MS RULES!!! There, that outta do it.

"Could this be the end of the OS wars in Nigeria?"

[ettlz]

Is this like one of 'em proxy wars? (No web-cache jokes, neither!)

Dual-boot beta.

[fahrbot-bot]

Currently, the dual-boot beta system is an OLPC with a Dell XPS duct-taped to the back of it. To Boot Windows, you turn the thing over... A Microsoft spokes-droid stated that the beta solution only raises the cost "slightly", but won't give an exact figure.

Re:Dual-boot beta.

[Gordo_1]

In all seriousness, anyone who's actually used an XO would be able to tell you that it's not gonna handle XP very well... I know Microsoft is trying their darndest to slim it down to a footprint that will run on the XO, but let me tell you... even with the exceedingly lean Fedora base, the XO is sluggish by today's standards. For example, it can't run Flash animations/videos with smooth playback -- not that the system really needs to be able to do any of this to achieve its pedagogic goals. I'm just trying to illustrate how monumental the effort will be for Microsoft to achieve suitable performance with this hardware. In the short-run, this effort *might* help OLPC sell to Nigeria and a few other countries who would prefer a more standard platform like Windows to teach kids on, but I believe political and bureaucratic barriers are an even greater concern for OLPC within these countries.

I think the renewed interest in Windows stems largely from the half-finished thought that is the current state of the Sugar UI. It needs a lot of attention. This should not come as a surprise to anyone who's developed an operating system UI before -- these things are big, complex and usually require years of development to achieve a user-friendly experience. Not to belittle what the Sugar devs did here, I just think OLPC bit off a piece bigger than it could chew in trying to revolutionize the user interface. IMHO, OLPC would be in less of a bind had they chosen to customize a more conventional, yet resource-stingy desktop interface like xfce rather than trying to create one from scratch using highly experimental, unproven interface design elements.

Re:Dual-boot beta.

[Warbothong]

Microsoft is expcted to release a report demonstrating how Windows is a better choice than the Linux system installed on the XO based on figures for its XPS+Windows addon, showing that Windows exceeds the performance of the pure OLPC Linux system in areas such as higher framerates for games, faster clock cycles, faster archive compression and decompression, higher levels of RAM and other key areas of OS performance.

This is good

[Cafe Alpha]

Teaching teens to use commercial software is important occupational training - if the OLPC does both then it can address more than one kind of education need. The classmate system, with its low cost library of a large number of applications filled this need.

I only hope that this is the start of an OLPC with expanded flash space so that it can have all of the packages that the classmate has PLUS the full set of OLPC software.

Re:This is good

[Minstrel Boy]

1) The XO isn't designed for teens (the keyboard in particular).

2) There is an SDHC slot already built into the device which supports up to 256GB cards (if they existed). This space can readily be mounted permanently (fstab) or semi-permanently (alias) into the directory structure, as I've done with my 8GB card.

KeS

Speed Considerations?

[jea6]

My boss got an XO through the B1G1 program and I found that it ran slowly. Can a stripped down version of XP perform reasonably on a platform that isn't designed for it?

Re:Speed Considerations?

[Anonymous Coward]

Q: Can a stripped down version of XP perform reasonably on a platform that isn't designed for it?

A: No.

Re:Speed Considerations?

[ksheff]

The version that will be able to dual boot will more than likely have more RAM and a faster processor than the current production models.

Re:Speed Considerations?

[Anonymous Coward]

Part of the problem is GTK. It's horribly, horribly slow - and it got even slower with the introduction of Cairo.

And no.. Qt is not an option due to Trolltech's use of the full strength GPL for a library.

Re:Speed Considerations?

[thepotoo]

An N-lited version of XP will run quite nicely on a computer with only 64 megs of RAM. However, once you've stripped everything away, you're left with an operating system which is completely, utterly useless (at least for a general internet browsing computer). Windows 2000, OTOH, works great. The entire install disk is around 70mb (with drivers and firefox integrated), and, as an added bonus, stripping out everything increases security tenfold.

In short, Win2k would work, but MS won't use it. I doubt XP will ever work; it's simply to interdependent.

Re:Speed Considerations?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can a stripped down version of XP perform reasonably on a platform that isn't designed for it?

According to an earlier /. story, http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/12/06/2049201, the question is whether it can run it at all!

From that article: Utzschneider says a shrunken version of Windows XP could potentially run on 2 Gbytes of flash memory. The XO, however, can only hold 1 Gbyte. As a result, Microsoft wants the XO's designers to add a slot through which more memory can be added via a secure digital (SD) card

In other words, Microsoft wants OLPC redesigned to add the capability to run Windows.

Re:Speed Considerations?

[pajeromanco]

No, part of the problem is the lack of a floating point coprocessor in the OLPC. Windows will run horribly bad on it (if it runs at all).

Re:Speed Considerations?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, GTK is just SLOW. Even on desktops, with floating point processors. It's even worse on the OLPC without a FPP.

Please don't do this.

[lazyforker]

I only hope this is total BS. The last thing this project needs is "help" from M$FT. The XO is a fine product and well-suited to its purpose: a platform to introduce people to technology, programming, etc. Nothing but the imagination, ingenuity and creativity of a child is needed. The only reason Microsoft are interested is that they want to poison the minds of the XO owners. Asshats.

First Intel attempted, and now Microsoft is trying to torpedo this project because they realize it's a threat to their future markets. Imagine a whole generation of Linux-schooled programmers writing the next killer apps, or buying last year's hardware to run Linux desktops (or servers!) - now imagine how Wintel feel about that.

Re:Please don't do this.

[Locutus]

If Microsoft can delay this project for a year or two, they'll have done a great job at killing it. No extension to the G1G1 is going to provide enough cash to keep the project going without some large contracts.

Combine that with how Intel and Microsoft are paying original OLPC customers to go Classmate PC with Windows and you've got another project with its air supply being cut off. This project is far cheaper to kill off then say Netscape was. It's a non-profit so there's not much cash for it to to begin with. Unless someone like Google or AMD decide they'd better step in and provide the marketing money keep it going.

Anyways, I don't see putting Windows on the XO as anything but a ploy to destroy it. That is how they address ever other threat so this one should be no different. Well, unless they buy out Negroponte and Linux and OSS is totally removed from all XO devices delivered. THAT option is the only one Bill and Microsoft would accept and still allow the project to continue. IMO.

LoB

Re:Please don't do this.

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

Well I, for one, don't think it's a bad idea for windows to be offered as an alternative OS. They'd be competing on even terms (so long as Windows doesn't boot automatically if you fail to choose your OS in the allocated time), and the people who actually use the machine could tell which one they prefer. Then they'd probably have to delete the other partition for the space.

Re:Please don't do this.

[ddrichardson]

They wouldn't be competing on even terms at all though - one platform would give the ability to learn and develop and the other would be locked to closed source proprietry software (for the most part).

Re:Please don't do this.

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

Oh yeah? And Windows is pretty much a global standard, so case closed.

Or maybe we can do away with naming "killer attributes", and let them compete on equal terms.

BTW, I've learned and developed heaps on Windows, which ultimately gave me the technical ability to learn Linux. Not having access to source code is no major barrier to "learning" and "developing". Your contention is bullshit.

Re:Please don't do this.

[ddrichardson]

I don't agree - for two reasons:

• OLPC was designed to run a customised Linux not Windows, which even in a somehow cut back version is, as we all know, very resource hungry. This is hardly a level playing field for Windows is it?
• As you state Windows is pretty much a global standard, so what is the likelihood, given the choice, that developing nations are going to choose a platform that is not the same as that which everyone else uses.

As for your assertion that you needn't have access to source code to learn, that may be the case for you and in fact many others but it is not the case for a very large number of people who learn kinesthetically. Access to source code and being able to hack is how many, many people learn - especially when formal education is out of the question.

Re:Please don't do this.

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

OLPC was designed to run a customised Linux not Windows, which even in a somehow cut back version is, as we all know, very resource hungry. This is hardly a level playing field for Windows is it?

It's a level playing field in that both OSes get the same hardware to work on, given the same opportunity for proving themselves, and given as a (hopefully) unbiased choice. If Windows is truly too resource-hungry for the OLPC, then it will fail.

As for your assertion that you needn't have access to source code to learn, that may be the case for you and in fact many others but it is not the case for a very large number of people who learn kinesthetically. Access to source code and being able to hack is how many, many people learn - especially when formal education is out of the question.

Well that gives Linux another natural advantage, doesn't it? Besides, there's nothing to say you can't get open source applications on Windows, and hack that way.

Anyway, what I'm suggesting is that we stop prescribing reasons why one is better and the other isn't, based on what "many others" like, and actually give the people who use the machine an opportunity to decide for themselves. Even if 95% of them choose to scrap Windows (we can only hope!), it'll be worth it to show MS how unwanted Windows is in fresh markets.

BTW, I have no idea what the point of your second point is.

Re:Please don't do this.

[ddrichardson]

Anyway, what I'm suggesting is that we stop prescribing reasons why one is better and the other isn't, based on what "many others" like, and actually give the people who use the machine an opportunity to decide for themselves.

I couldn't agree more - personally I couldn't give a flying fuck what OS people use and have no idea why so many people get so excited about comparison.

Even if 95% of them choose to scrap Windows (we can only hope!), it'll be worth it to show MS how unwanted Windows is in fresh markets.

Assuming the individual has a choice - most likely the institution in which the device is used will set policy. All it would take (in many circumstances) is a contribution from MS to sway that.

As for my second point, I'm asking this: if, given the choice between an unheard of product and a name as famous as Microsoft - knowing that nearly everyone (even those who prefer Linux) use regularly, which is the better proposition for your emerging workforce to be familiar with?

Re:Please don't do this.

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

Assuming the individual has a choice - most likely the institution in which the device is used will set policy. All it would take (in many circumstances) is a contribution from MS to sway that.

FTFS:

While Microsoft has been working on an OLPC-capable version of Windows for some time now, the interesting thing here is the dual-booting provision, rather than forcing users into an either-or choice.

MS is advocating dual booting. Perhaps they realise that lobbying to make Windows the only choice would just alienate them completely from the OLPC project?

Re:Please don't do this.

[ddrichardson]

I'm not disputing that MS is saying it is supporting dual booting, I am suggesting that if the machines have a dual boot capability and the kids are sitting in class then the teacher isn't going to want half the kids on Windows and half on Sugar. So they are all going to be using the teachers preference.

Its also interesting that MS is already influencing design changes such as the SD slot on the motherboard. Now I don't dispute the technical merits of a SD slot but when the whole point of the system is to keep cost down then it's a big step for Negroponte and the OLPC board to start adding hardware to bring MS on board.

In any case, it seems odd to me that Negroponte is happy to deal with a company that I think we can all agree is one of, if not the most, predatory companies in IT when they have just had such a bad experience with Intel.

Why, again, is Windows desirable for this market?

[OgGreeb]

I'm not sure I get it. Regardless of whatever discount Microsoft will provide, Windows costs more than Linux, needs more hardware resources to run properly, requires more and deeper technical support, is highly susceptible to malware and, for the intended audience (children aged 8-16 in technology-under served poor communities) either overkill or harder to work with in general. It's not just the OS, either. Many of the third-party programming and application tools that come bundled with the Sugar/Linux environment cost more with the Windows OS. The only semi-cogent argument I've heard supporting Windows being deployed in this environment is that the children will somehow be disadvantaged when they grow up and take on jobs that will use Windows. Meanwhile there is every indication that the primary office tasks expected of any information worker (word processing, spreadsheet, Internet browsing and communications) will be migrating to Web-based appliances in the near future, almost certainly by the time the kids are ready to move into those jobs, and further diminishing any value of using Windows as the OS.

To my mind, Windows seems like an expensive and unneeded distraction for these children.

OLPC-capable version of Windows

[xgr3gx]

OLPC-capable version of Windows = Windows 2000

Not all code needs to be made visible

[sracer]

While it is true that point of the OLPC is education, and that presenting source code is one way of doing that, it doesn't mean that the source code to the underlying OS needs to be exposed. There is nothing preventing an XO laptop from running a very trimmed down version of Windows (XP, CE, whatever) and supplying applications that can have their source code available.

Re:Not all code needs to be made visible

[SCHecklerX]

I agree. But do you really think that M$ is going to provide a solution that does this, let alone with elegance?

Re:Not all code needs to be made visible

[Locutus]

There is nothing preventing an XO laptop from running a very trimmed down version of Windows (XP, CE, whatever) and supplying applications that can have their source code available.

Sure there is, it's called Microsoft's desire to stop open source software. In Microsoft's eye( Sauron ) there can be no existing with OSS. Any statements of cooperation and the like are misdirection since publicly stating the goal of ending any love between corporations/businesses and OSS would harm their existing position in the market. IMO.

LoB

Re:Not all code needs to be made visible

[sracer]

Why not? Most of those posting anti-MS comments seem to think that if any version of Windows makes it to the XO, then MS will completely control the whole shebang. For some reason I don't think that would happen with OLPC. And as much as many applaud the selection of Linux as the underlying OS, I think that GEOS would've been better. I'm trying to get DOS booted on my XO to see how Geoworks Ensemble (or New Deal Office) would run. Performance-wise, it should run MORE swiftly than WinXP does on the latest and greatest hardware.

Re:Not all code needs to be made visible

[webmaster404]

Why not? Most of those posting anti-MS comments seem to think that if any version of Windows makes it to the XO, then MS will completely control the whole shebang.

But isn't that what MS has done with computers until 2 or so years ago? Until 2 years ago or so, it was nearly impossible to go to a major manufacturer such as Dell and the like and get a computer with a non-MS OS on it. Whats to say that the OLPC won't turn out this way? With Intel leaving, OLPC needs cash, MS has a lot of cash, if MS for the next model of computers by the OLPC decide to pay OLPC say 50 million if they ship with Windows CE on them rather then Linux, how are they to complain? It always starts out small with MS, then before any non-geek knows it, MS controls it. If OLPC turns to MS, you can bet that freedom will get restricted.

Re:Not all code needs to be made visible

[webmaster404]

Its not necessarily the use of a closed-source OS but of MS's OS. In the proprietary world, you are nothing more then a statistic, a customer, you have no input beyond bug reports that *may* be added in some service pack or the next "patch Tuesday" and nothing more. With open source software, you can do whatever you want to with it, you can easily become a sysadmin, tech support or in computer repair very quickly, and those are higher-paying jobs. Although right now, the developing world has little need of these, in 5-10 years they could become essential. Also, with pre-installed operating systems and a monopoly on operating systems, the operating system IS the computer, if you don't have the code to the OS, you don't have the code to the computer. In addition, given MS's past reputation with monopolizing hardware/software, whats to say that they don't make a deal with OLPC that on the next laptop they make they will give OLPC 50 million if they don't add Linux? That is a very real possibility. MS is a very untrustworthy company and nothing trying to help software grow should be a part of them.

Re:Not all code needs to be made visible

[JohnVanVliet]

"In Microsoft's eye( Sauron )" so is Linus Torvalds the "ring barer "

Re:Not all code needs to be made visible

[rtb61]

AT the end of the day, whilst the OLPC has initiated a trend a lot of hardware manufacturers are now looking to jump in on that trend and that ultimately means cheap laptops for children anyhow.

As always M$'s myopic greed is to little to late as the most competitive software combination will be Linux and openoffice.org especially on a sub $200 laptop, and that is not third world, that is first and second world.

Not that Nicholas has failed, he has initiated a design concept that will go on to fulfil a need. As for M$'s contributions, they just continue to demonstrates exactly what kind of contemptible company they really are, a company that truly reflects the personality and amoral/immoral characteristics of it's management (exploit third world children for profits).

Eww

[starfishsystems]

The OLPC project, as originally conceived, had huge collaborative potential. Put an open platform into the hands of many, many people. Let them figure out what direction they want to take it.

Close that platform, and suddenly it makes no sense at all. It's no longer an extensible means of cultural and technological expression but just another consumer product, good for nothing more than keeping the Third World in its place, right at the bottom.

Thanks, Microsoft, for staying in character.

Re:Eww

[jiushao]

Yes, we should do everything we can to let people take their own direction. Except give them the option of running Microsoft software. Because we certainly can't have people going around making choices we don't like now can we?

Re:Eww

[starfishsystems]

A choice to drink the Kool-Aid is not much of a choice. Especially if the drinker isn't in the position to understand that it's been poisoned.

Re:Eww

[jav1231]

Seems I read (misread?) somewhere that many of the developers and engineers on the project threatened to jump ship if Microsoft was involved.

Re:Eww

[Anonymous Coward]

Especially if the drinker isn't in the position to understand that it's been poisoned. Ah, so because you think you know better, you would deny people the choice to use MS products? For their own good, right? Because if someone chooses something you don't like, the only possibility is that they are ignorant and uninformed?

The amazing/scary thing is you (and many other slashdot users) probably don't see anything wrong with that way of thinking.

Re:Eww

[bugs2squash]

Perhaps the best possibility is that teachers will be directed to tell children not to use Linux. There's nothing that makes my children more determined to try something than denying it.

Seriously, I told them they couldn't have broccoli once, they ate lots of it as a treat.

Re:Eww

[Anonymous Coward]

When it was open ?

Are the CPU schemes public ? Does it use an open BIOS ? Chipset ? Microcode ?

Does it make a difference the OS ?

Re:Eww

[starfishsystems]

Ah, but the thing is, I do know better. I'm a professional computer scientist with 30 years of experience in operating systems and user interface design. People like my contribution to the field enough to have paid me millions of dollars over the years.

Whereas, you're posting as an Anonymous Coward with no credentials at all. That's fine, it just means that we're left to judge you on the merits of your argument. And so far, you show only a knack for developing arguments which logically self-invalidate. That's not even passable as sophistry. You understand that, don't you?

Re:Eww

[DerekLyons]

The OLPC project, as originally conceived, had huge collaborative potential. Put an open platform into the hands of many, many people. Let them figure out what direction they want to take it.

Sure, choice is good. But with the XO-1 you don't actually have a choice - it only ships with one OS.
 
 

Close that platform, and suddenly it makes no sense at all.

Giving people a choice of OS is closing the platform? Didn't you just say that people should be given a chance to choose their own direction? (Or did you actually mean "they have a free choice - conform to my biases or do without"?)
 
 

It's no longer an extensible means of cultural and technological expression but just another consumer product, good for nothing more than keeping the Third World in its place, right at the bottom.

Seriously, are you on drugs? Do honestly believe that acess only to a computer with Windows (which isn't what is being proposed here.), that they won't acess the net, participate in social networks, use them for education, etc... etc... (I.E. all the things the XO-1 is being touted for). What leads you to think that a Windows machine isn't a "extensible means of cultural and technological expression"? (Setting aside the question of the value of such vague buzzwords.) There isn't much that can be done with the average Linux box that can't be done with the average Windows box - anything more requires significantly more technical skills than the target market for the XO-1 has.

Re:Eww

[martin-boundary]

Giving people a choice of OS is closing the platform?

If one of the two OSes has hardware DRM requirements *cough*Vista*cough$, then it IS closing the platform, because the laptop has to be modified to give the users less freedom.

And that causes a freedom destroying trickle down effect: the free OS has to be adapted, the bundled hardware can't be fully used by the free OS, the DRM hardware is dead weight that increases the cost without any benefits, the users can't do anything they want if they choose the Windows OS, so their expectations are affected, etc.

Re:Eww

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, but the thing is, I do know better. I'm a professional computer scientist with 30 years of experience in operating systems and user interface design. If you want to appeal to your own authority in interface design, you should first change your Starfish Systems homepage to something that doesn't look quite so amateurish. Throwing stones in glass houses and all that.

But I don't really care about your credentials at all. Not sure why you brought it up. What I do care about is your argument...

Oh wait, you didn't really bother with one. Let's see if I can salvage anything close to a point out of what you wrote:

you show only a knack for developing arguments which logically self-invalidate. Really, how so? My argument was that you denying people software choice because you think you know what's best for them is ridiculous. In what way does that self-invalidate? I'm not claiming to know what's best for anyone. In fact, even with all the experience in the world, I would still have the common sense to know that sometimes people can make informed decisions that do not agree with my own.

Your counter, which is basically "I don't think I know better, I do know better!" only drives home my secondary point that you probably see nothing wrong with how you think. Your 30 years of experience have made you stubborn and apparently self-righteous, which is very unfortunate - both for you and anyone else you feel the need to enforce your "wisdom" on, at the expense of their own free will.

Re:Eww

[zenkonami]

They could always go buy the low end Asus Eee, purchase Windows (which is what Microsoft really wants anyway) and install it themselves...then they'll know how wonderfully on runs on that kind of hardware. Sounds like an option to me, and at a similar price point.

Re:Eww

[DerekLyons]

Certainly. _IF_ one of the two OSes had that misfeature. Neither does.
 
Try working forward from facts rather than spewing FUD. Read the fucking article.

Re:Eww

[martin-boundary]

FYI, the article doesn't say what DRM requirements the Microsoft OS actually has. It merely implies that it's derived from the XP codebase.

Re:Eww

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes you are quite right ! We should also give them rat poison in unlabelled bottles, to let them have the choice of drinking it or not.

solitaire + minesweeper = productivity--

[Scrameustache]

To my mind, Windows seems like an expensive and unneeded distraction for these children. It's an educational project: They'll learn their lesson ;-)

Re:Why, again, is Windows desirable for this marke

[paxgaea]

"The only semi-cogent argument I've heard supporting Windows being deployed in this environment is that the children will somehow be disadvantaged when they grow up and take on jobs that will use Windows."

As far as I am concerned, you touched on THE key point as to why Microsoft thinks it is a good idea (in fact, they should view it as near essential to their survival in these areas of the world) to work with the OLPC. If you have a generation of children who grow up knowing open source operating systems and software inside and out, there is no need for Microsoft, at home, in their offices, anywhere. These countries will not touch Microsoft products within a generation, because it will not be 'the coin of the realm', since the entire technical portion of their economy will only know open source....unless of course if Microsoft gets a foothold, and the OLPC is a good place to start.

Pretty damn good business decision, very forward-thinking (in a 'there is profit to be made here' sorta way), if you ask me. How many companies do you know that think 2 decades into the future. Most operate with short term gain in mind.

I personally think it is a bad thing overall, but who am I to deny the 'children' their right to choice? (don't do it kids! it's a scam!)

please, have mercy!

[Tom]

It is bad enough that people in the 1st world have become so used to the abomination that is windos that they seriously defend it as something one can actually use. Let's not inflict that pain on the children in the developing countries, please?

And I am serious. I know a few people whose first computing experiences were not windos. To a man (or woman, in some cases) when they "met" windos later on they found it horrible and hard to use.

So please, let's at least give the untainted a view on what computers could be like.

Re:please, have mercy!

[nsteussy]

actually many of us, beyond a certain age, grew up with the DOS or Apple CLI. Windows, after 3.1, was rather a nice change. But now it and MacOS have grown rather monster like, and want to hide things so as not to spook GrandMa or the CEO. Fortunately LINUX came along about that time to offer an alternative. duke -writing on his xo laptop- out

Re:please, have mercy!

[Actually, I do RTFA]

And I am serious. I know a few people whose first computing experiences were not windos. To a man (or woman, in some cases) when they "met" windos later on they found it horrible and hard to use.

And my first computing experience was not a Mac. And when I "met" mac OS 7 or whatever, I found it horrible and hard to use. It made sense, and was better designed in some ways, but I would have given up on it if I had not been forced to use it. Change is hard. The idea of chording the keyboard and mouse is good, but is different from what most people use.

I use a QWERTY keyboard, because I type quickly on it. If I learned to use a DVORAK keyboard, it might be faster, but learning curves are expensive.

The point I am trying to get to is that there is no "untainted" view, and to imply that people dislike something different makes it worse is a horrible argument. And a horrible argument makes it sound like you have no better ones. Surely you don't mean to imply that...

Re:please, have mercy!

[Smidge204]

Perhaps your definition of "use" isn't typical. For the vast majority of people, "usable" means they get their work done at the end of the day.

A configuration of Linux does not exist that satisfies everything I require of a computer. Windows does. Windows 2000 Professional specifically, though if I upgrade to anything with more than 2 CPU cores I'll be forced to go at least as far as XP Pro. If it was possible to make Linux do everything I need and want to do with my computer then I'd probably use it, and to those whose needs are met by it I extend my best regards.

All your bitching and moaning does absolutely nothing to make Linux half the OS you believe it is. This doesn't mean I'm a Microsoft fanboy or think Windows is the best thing ever... it certainly has its problems and so does Linux. Franky, though, your type of juvenile software ideology can eat a bowl of dicks.

Also, are you deliberately misspelling "windows" or are you just retarded?

That said: unless Microsoft is going to subsidize the costs of the hardware - not even offering the OS for free, but actually PAYING OLPC for doing this - then OLPC is going to get anally raped by the whole deal some time in the very near future.
=Smidge=

Re:please, have mercy!

[Tom]

Perhaps your definition of "use" isn't typical. For the vast majority of people, "usable" means they get their work done at the end of the day. Indeed, my definition of "use" is slightly different. I haven't forgotten that "usability" doesn't mean "getting it done, somehow, no matter the pain". If you spend a considerable part of your working day fighting with the machine in order to force it into submission and finally get some real work out of it, then the machine is broken, end of discussion.

And, for the record, I'm an Apple fanboy, not a Linux fanboy. I did use Linux for almost 10 years, though, and still use it on my servers. On the UI side, Linux sucks, but at least it's not deliberately mis-designed.

Re:please, have mercy!

[Tom]

True, there is no untainted view, and change is hard.

However, so far all the real-world cases of switching between different OSes I know of follow this pattern:

• Windos -> Linux = learning curve, but generally viewed as a liberation and an improvement, later some cursing over Linux quirks
  
• Linux -> Windos = much cursing and moaning and generally only done "because of the software", windos GUI seen as inconsistent (and that from Linux people!) and confusing
  
• Linux -> OSX = fairly smooth transition, some complaining about loss of configuration, but much rejoicing over consistency and "everything just works"
  
• Windos -> OSX = much rejoicing over consistency, easy of use, beauty and well-thought out design. Nobody I know who made this switch has looked back
  

Those are the cases I know. Sorry that I know of nobody who switched from OSX to Windos.

Yes, change is hard, but it isn't the same kind of hard for all changes.

Re:please, have mercy!

[Smidge204]

And, for the record, I'm an Apple fanboy, not a Linux fanboy.

Then I apologize and retract portions of my comment. The "juvenile software ideology" part stays, though, perhaps moreso.

The last time I spent any amount of time fighting with my computer to get it working was, amusingly, trying to get the network/internet working on a copy of OSX Leopard (x86) I installed in a VMWare environment. Granted that's a special case, but my Windows system never gives me problems. This is because, like you and your favorite OS, I know how to set things up the way I like it and then everything works fine from there on out.

"It just works" as they say.
=Smidge=

Re:please, have mercy!

[Actually, I do RTFA]

You do realize that term "windos" correctly only applies to Windows OS's not built on the NT kernal, that is Win followed by a number, up to 2000. XP is based on the NT kernal, and thus, while it has a command line interface, is not a GUI wrapped around a command line OS.

Maybe it's only because I am more familiar with it, but I don't see any real issues with the Windows GUI. By contrast, I find OS X nigh impossible to change any settings on. Linux made sense to me but required too much thinking. What I think is one of the strenghts of the Windows GUI as opposed to Linux or OS X is the numerous paradigms that are all concurently supported. I found one that works for me.

Since you listed your conversion experiences, here are mine:

• Windows 95 -> Mac OS Something - I used both at the same, don't remember the comparison. I didn't own the Mac, so I continued the windows path.
• Windows XP -> Linux (I think Redhat, I think KDE, but maybe Gnome as a GUI): GUI felt like a cheap knockoff of Windows. The functionality was nice, but I primarily used it to set up boxes I didn't have to look at all day long.
• Windows XP -> Mac OS X: The opposite of Linux, I felt like it was a smooth GUI where the functionality was all hidden. Always disliked viscerally the concept of the menu at the top changing as opposed to one menu per app window. Disliked how hard it was to tell how a file would open. Also found the mounting of additional disks to be confusing. But what killed my experiments was the background defragmenting. No, bad computer. *hits box with newspaper*

Re:please, have mercy!

[Tom]

You do realize that term "windos" correctly only applies to Windows OS's not built on the NT kernal, that is Win followed by a number, up to 2000. XP is based on the NT kernal, and thus, while it has a command line interface, is not a GUI wrapped around a command line OS. Yes, I do realize that. I retain the term for old times' sake. Change is hard, as we were just discussing. :-)

Maybe it's only because I am more familiar with it, but I don't see any real issues with the Windows GUI. That is exactly the point I was making. You are used to it, which is why you don't notice the badness anymore. Those "untainted" (i.e. with no prior windos exposure) do. For example, the "Start" menu still puts programs into subfolders named after the company that manufactures the program. Which is a pure marketing stint and is horrible for every regular computer user who really couldn't care less what the company is named.

I could go on. In fact, I have, I've held presentations about the shortcomings of the windos UI. The list is long. Very long. And I'm only dealing with HCI as an afterthought to my real profession, I'm sure a professional designer or HCI expert could point out at least twice as many flaws as I can.

Re:please, have mercy!

[Tom]

This is because, like you and your favorite OS, I know how to set things up the way I like it and then everything works fine from there on out. But we weren't talking about you and me. We were talking about first-time computer users. I have the luck of having seen a number of those struggle with various OSes, from my Mom and her Linux machine to my girlfriend and her first windos PC. I can deal with windos, make no mistake. But I've seen how extremely confusing some of those things are to a "newbie".

Example: How many steps does it take to enable a bluetooth mouse in windos? I know, because I counted - I couldn't believe it's so complicated. Or starting an ad-hoc wireless network. Again, I've counted the steps. None of these things are very geeky. I'm not talking about setting up an encrypted disk volume or something of that kind. This is stuff that Mom actually might want to do.

Re:please, have mercy!

[Smidge204]

You're doing that "windos" thing again. I'm afraid I'll never be able to take you seriously if you insist on doing that.

So you think OSX / Linux is more intuitive than Windows? I can also tell you how many steps it takes to install a Bluetooth mouse in windows, but unlike you I'll actually give a number: 3. The first is to plug in the USB adapter, and the second and third are to click "OK"/"Next" on the "New Hardware" dialog and the one telling you the driver isn't signed. (You may not even get the new hardware dialog in XP)

So how many steps does it take to mount a drive shared over a network so that it remounts automatically at login in OSX or Linux? Either is fine. If it's more than 3 you lose to Windows.
=Smidge=

Re:please, have mercy!

[Smidge204]

Excuse the bold... botched the closing tag.

=Smidge=

Re:please, have mercy!

[Actually, I do RTFA]

For example, the "Start" menu still puts programs into subfolders named after the company that manufactures the program. Which is a pure marketing stint and is horrible for every regular computer user who really couldn't care less what the company is named.

Ahhh... now we reach the heart of the problem. The issue is always, as Ballmer so elloquently put, developers. When you build a Windows installation, you choose what subdirectory (subfolder, whatever they call it) it is placed in by default. So you can put it under your company name (when I build installs, I am told to). You can put it under the product name. You can put it in the root. And, the user can always open the start menu and rearrange/rename the shortcuts.

The same thing with all the Vista popups. Poorly written Windows software, using Admin privledges unnecessarily.

Flash suffers from the same stigma, because many people who can "write" a Flash application cannot write a Flash application. The problem is that its what unintelligent people start playing with it, and they use the tools improperly.

I daresay, if Linux on the Desktop became a reality tomorrow, the same issues will pop up. Companies trying their best to brand your computer when you install their software. Poorly written apps thinking they "need" admin privledges. In fact, on the latter, you can thank Microsoft for taking all the PR blame while programmers around the world learn that "Hello World" doesn't need admin access.

I don't mean to imply that the Windows UI is perfect. And some ideas, such as the registry were either poorly implemented or inferior to an alternate solution. It's just that, at the OS level, I haven't really seen any advantages of OSX/Linux. With the obvious exception of how security is handled.

Re:please, have mercy!

[Tom]

It isn't quite that easy.

Yes, developers can make things different. But MS sets the standards, and the standards are the abominations we all know and hate. Plus, if you as a user change the default, most applications won't uninstall correctly (i.e. leave the non-standard start-menu entries behind). Which, on the "plus" side, opens up the whole secondary market for cleanup software...

I agree that flash has the same problem, and that Linux _might_. However, there are ways to avoid and mitigate these problems. Linux has one huge advantage, for example, and that is proper package management. OSX has a similar advantage, with the fact that it uses self-contained packages (actually just folders) for programs, so you install and uninstall most programs by drag&drop to the applications folder or the trashcan.

And again, yes the admin access is a developer program, but again MS sets the standard - even Office doesn't work correctly if you run it as non-admin (ok, the most recent version might, I don't know about that one). Plus, of course, MS started the whole crap by making the default user run as admin, instead of using something, you know, innovative like sudo which at the introduction of windos '95 had been around for only two decades or so.

Re:please, have mercy!

[Tom]

Sorry, it doesn't take 3 steps. On XP SP2, it takes 11 clicks and mouse-movements inbetween most clicks (there is one double-click in there).

Take a bluetooth mouse (a new one, not previously connected to that computer) and actually do it.

Re:please, have mercy!

[Smidge204]

Moving the mouse counts as a step? Holy shit... maybe you should include "breathing" and "blinking" as steps too, just in case.

I bet setting up a bluetooth mouse on a Mac is so easy, you don't even have to take it out of the box! I'm sure as soon as it detects a Mac in the area, it unpacks and configures itself just before filing your tax returns, washing your car and sucking you off...

Still waiting for an answer about that network drive.
=Smidge=

Re:please, have mercy!

[Actually, I do RTFA]

The package management is horrible in Windows. I don't understand how Linux and OS X do it, but I do know that I would design a different system. How do the others handle packages? There seem to be shared resources that all packages need, e.g. fonts, codecs. There also seem to be interactions between packages (Like within the Office or Creative Suite bundles) that it would be nice to generalize. There is also the difficult process of breaking up of global information a program will need (the binary code), and the individual user settings (for each of the 8 users on this machine). I'm sure there are other concerns that have not yet occured to me.

Obviously, these are all problems with many solutions. I'm just curious how non-Windows OS's handle them.

I wonder what

[aegl]

the "SHOW SOURCE" key on the OLPC will do when Windows is running?

Re:I wonder what

[Ciggy]

Display: "Supplied by the generosity of Microsoft"

Re:I wonder what

[Cussin_IT]

msgbox "This Application as Caused an Ilegal Operation and will now exit"
Exit()

Re:I wonder what

[dangitman]

Self-destruct button.

Re:I wonder what

[stormguard2099]

the "SHOW SOURCE" key on the OLPC will do when Windows is running? It turns the screen blue no matter what you are doing. Think of it as a home button.

OLPC Principles compromised???????

[haroldag]

Excuse me, but I am confused. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olpc

OLPC espouses five core principles:

1. Child ownership
2. Low ages. The hardware and software are designed for elementary school children aged 6-12.
3. Saturation
4. Connection
5. Free and open source

How is this free and open source? Are these principles that flexible?

Re:Why, again, is Windows desirable for this marke

[Dwedit]

This thing easily has adequate specs for running Windows XP or FLP. It just won't have the cool collaborative sugar UI.

I guess MSFT isn't behind intel

[blitzkrieg3]

I guess that rules out this theory.

Re:I guess MSFT isn't behind intel

[quizzicus]

Not necessarily. Perhaps Plan A failed and this is plan B.

Re:I guess MSFT isn't behind intel

[jpetts]

Unsafe assumption. Just because one division in MS might be looking at getting Windows on the XO does not mean that another division is not trying to help Intel deep-six the XO. And further, don't assume that if this is the case, either or both of the two divisions is ignorant of the other.

Not the worst of it.

[Anonymous Coward]

OLPC wants you to:
1. own children
2. own young children
3. saturate yourself with young child slaves
4. connect with other young child slave owners
5. share your young child slaves and the name of your young child slave dealer with other like-minded inviduals

I'm sorry, but I for one will not support an initiative that backs child slavery.

I thought OLPC didn't have enough storage ...

[novakyu]

... for Windows alone.

I mean, Microsoft was suggesting that OLPC make a major change, just so that it can run Windows by itself, but a dual-boot system with two operating systems on it? Either OLPC project caved in and agreed to make its XO notebook more expensive (i.e. more built-in storage), or ... well, I guess this could be a good thing---Microsoft might finally be forced to cut the fat and make its OS lean.

Re:I thought OLPC didn't have enough storage ...

[shadylookin]

ya any modern windows version will eat up most of the 1gig hard drive. not only that but I imagine with it's processor of about 400mhz and only 256mb or ram I doubt that it will run smoothly with windows(I imagine it doesn't even run that smoothly with linux)

this will be funny

[timrichardson]

Tonight I helped a friend set up openoffice. The laptop was quite a new Acer. The download speed was really slow then I realised that power saving was turned on even though I had plugged in the power (and throttling the wifi). Finally I got it working. Clicking on the task bar thing at the bottom caused pop-up menus to be drawn that didn't properly erase. Using the internet browser seemed really sluggish. So what OS doesn't handle changes in power states, leaves rubbish on the screen, has a slow web browser ... it was Windows XP. Debian is really so much better. The only good thing that happened is the openoffice database from my wife's Mac worked immediately on the Windows machine. So it was a very convincing evening of open source superiority. Seeing Windows running on the OLPC hardware is going to be something to see; I'd almost pay for the entertainment value.

Windows kills the OLPC

[gillbates]

The problem with installing Windows on the OLPC is that it destroys the original purpose of the device: to educate children about how computers work. With Windows:

• They won't be able to see the source code, to figure out how it works.
• Or, if they are allowed to see the source code, they will be never be able to work in the OS/Office Suite/whatever market.
• They won't learn computer science, or even proper programming practices. They'll come to believe that writing bug-free code is impossible, and that every computer crashes from time to time. They'll learn that viruses are a normal part of owning a computer.

If Windows goes on the OLPC, the project has failed. It's that simple.

Re:Windows kills the OLPC

[ksheff]

If the Sugar interface is written in python, would there be a reason that it can't run on Windows? As far as I know, the "show source" button only displayed the source of the python script being run, not the underlying OS.

Re:Windows kills the OLPC

[Anonymous Coward]

That is the KEY point that I make.

Children OUTSIDE the usa recieve in depth educations. Even children in opressive china where they beat you every hour and eat kitten faces are far better educated than children in the usa. Yes kids, I am a Us citizen, I have a child in private school in the US because the public schools are utterly useless, yet the technology program even at the private school is a joke.

Every single person I know that learned computers on "windows" knows far less about the computer than the guys and gals that used different OS's Even programmers on windows know very little about the computer. .NET hand holds you so badly you dont even need to know computer basics (I regularly get suprised looks when I convert hex or binary in my head from "educated experts")

I want kids elsewhere to get smart, not more stupid like we do here in the USA..

Hey World! if you want to know what NOT to do in education, look at the US education system. We have the stupidest degree holding people on the planet.

Re:Windows kills the OLPC

[kiswa]

The goal of the OLPC project is not "to educate children about how computers work". There seem to be some delusional folks in our community who think that the project is trying to breed the next generation of Linux-hackers and open source developers. It's not about teaching computer science, it's not about developing Open Office plugins and it's not about learning to write bug-free code. It's about providing an educational tool to give children a "window on the world, as well as a highly programmable tool for exploring it" and that's very different from what some people think it is. Perhaps you should read about the project's mission from their site: http://laptop.org/vision/mission/ One of the most important lines they have in there is that the "OLPC is not, at heart, a technology program".

Re:Windows kills the OLPC

[DogDude]

They don't have to use Windows if they don't want to. It's called *choice*. OSS zealots are always screaming about choice, but when it comes to choosing between Windows and *nix, then *nix needs to be shoved down everybody's throat whether they like it or not, huh? And people wonder why Linux has never gained any kind of traction on desktops...

The real reason

[Anonymous Coward]

Aha!

Now I know the real reason there's an MBR vulnerability in windows--so that when the poor children boot Vista and notice it's laggy, they can slap a rootkit into it that will destroy the regular software ( http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/01/08/0154227 )

It's all so clear to me now! I have seen the light... The cat's out of the bag now...

And so the stupidity spreads.

[delire]

It's reasonably likely the OLPC will become a Windows-only machine in short time.

It will start with older children assuming Windows looks more 'serious' and grown up, like the computers people in images and movies they see online use. Governments will be taught to prefer Windows on the basis of it being more 'competitive' because Windows is "more like" what people in wealthier economies use.

The result of this is that more kids will learn to be bored by computers and computing, believing that they are opaque appliances with western graphic metaphors (what's a 'desktop' to someone that's never sat at a desk?) that seem to get slow over time. Just a small segment of the truly curious seeking alternative operating systems. Governments that bought the machines will wonder what went wrong when they see little or no innovation in the IT sector yet a massive outsourcing industry to faltering IT giants like the U.S.

Negroponte has always wanted to work with Microsoft on his terms. Windows will certainly enjoy a long and prosperous life.

Negroponte, you're being an idiot.

Re:And so the stupidity spreads.

[initialE]

If you want the OLPC to look even more "serious and grown up" then offer an option to triple boot with another distro - one that's by default tricked out to the max that the machine can handle. No reason why it wouldn't work. Let's face it, nobody wants a desktop that looks just like anyone elses, they want something unique. People customize their wallpapers, they add widgets all over the place, they even want to change the startup logo. Something to say "I'm 1337 too."

OLPC is now just an underpowered Windows PC

[TheNarrator]

Prediction:

Within one year OLPC is dead in the water. Why? OLPC is now a laptop project. It will be judged by how well it runs Microsoft Office and Internet Explorer. No other software will be available for the OLPC for Windows for a reasonable enough price that it can be included with the OS, even if it is donated, the donation will not include software auto-deployable on all OLPCs. All OLPCs will have slightly different packages, the culture will be fragmented, and it won't be about education anymore but about begging commercial software companies to give software to developing countries that will mostly be run on recycled desktops anyway. All the geeks contributing will stop contributing and move onto other projects. Even with all the security features OLPCs will be hacked and stolen for use as cheap windows laptops.

Zealot alert

[Anonymous Coward]

Zealots make me laugh. Get in touch reality.

Narrator: In A.D. 2008, war was beginning.

[ssstraub]

OLPC: What happen ?

Third World Country: Somebody set up us the bomb.
Third World Country: We get signal.

OLPC: What!

Third World Country: Main screen turn on.

OLPC: It's you!!

Microsoft: How are you gentlemen!!
Microsoft: All your base are belong to us.
Microsoft: You are on the way to destruction.

OLPC: What you say!!

Microsoft: You have no chance to survive make your time.
Microsoft: Ha Ha Ha Ha ....

Third World Country: Captain!!

OLPC: Take off every 'ZIG'!!
OLPC: You know what you doing.
OLPC: Move 'ZIG'.
OLPC: For great justice.

Almost Meaningless

[blueZhift]

This seems like an almost meaningless technical gesture. It reminds me of those stories about how someone got some version of Linux to run on a digital camera or other generally unlikely device. It may be interesting, but not very useful. Being able to dual boot Windows on an XO laptop seems like nothing more than tech PR without any real substance. The target audience has no need for this.

Why can;t the rest of us have the version?

[xs650]

The version that's up and running of Windows on the XO is very fast, it's very, very successful. We're working very hard to do both," said Nicholas Negroponte, chairman of OLPC.
Why can't the rest of us have Windows that works like that?

Simple.

[Narcocide]

... and later, should a service pack "accidentally" sabotage the boot process for the open source operating systems on the machine leaving clueless young users assuming that its a "Linux problem" and turning to the "more reliable" Windows for basic communication... no I don't see any way they could profit from this at all.

Re:Simple.

[JohnVanVliet]

i run a duel boot xp and Fedora 8 --soon triple Gentoo seeing as the MS windows installer DOSE NOT SEE MY FEDORA 8 INSTALLATION and will gladly( Very,very gladly) reformat my ext 3 HD to ntfs . The M$ installer thinks that there should be ONLY ONE and ONLY ONE os on a box

Re:Why, again, is Windows desirable for this marke

[delire]

According to TFA the stripped down version of Windows runs very fast on the hardware. To quote Negroponte:

The version that's up and running of Windows on the XO is very fast, it's very, very successful.

MS will do whatever they can to ensure it is more appealing and better performing than Linux. there is simply too much to lose otherwise. Whether they are successful is another thing. I don't doubt that whatever mutation of Windows they put on the thing, it will fly.

This dual-booting project, of course, isn't about co-existance, it's about providing a future opportunity for Windows to be the sole OS on the OLPC, with Microsoft being a major investor. This is clear. All it takes now is a few visits to governments talking about education and being competitive in a "Windows world" and Governments will soon opt in for a Windows only install. The question being: "Dual boot or Windows with extra disk space?"

Re: Dual Boot Tricks

[TaoPhoenix]

Could MS sneak a trick in whereupon when it loads Windows it sabotages something that the Linux boot needs, so when someone runs them back to back, the Linux install tanks?

In the seven seconds of space when a nasty salesman is spreading FUD about the Linux half, even a Linux expert might not find the poison pill in time for the emotional hysterics to win the day.

Maybe this would be a use for stray batches of Vista code.

Wanna see one? or three?

[dominux]

from the Won't-somebody-think-of-the-children? dept.
If you are in the UK then get down to Olympia where the BETT technology in education show is running now until Saturday. Entry is free and if you go to stand SW105 (upstairs in the small hall where Linuxworld was) you will find The Open Learning Centre where we have three lovely little OLPC laptops meshed and ready to play with. We have had an amazing day today. Everyone wants to see them, people are queuing up just to hold them and see the screen.
Once you have had your little green laptop urges satisfied please go round every other stand and ask them if their software/hardware solution runs on Linux :-)

Stay away!

[realdodgeman]

If Microsoft ever get Windows on the OLPC... They will destroy the possibility for a better future for many children worldwide.

The open nature of OLPC is what makes it great. A new generation of highly skilled computer users who can use technology to help themselves and their society out of poverty. Microsoft want to destroy all that just because they want another generation of MS-tax paying customers.

This is not just ugly and immoral, it is also both sad and sickening. I will never by a Microsoft product again. I considered the Xbox 360, but there is no way I can get myself to buy it now.

Don't underestimate the power of knowledge. OLPC is targeted to give kids that knowledge.

Good, each OS has its purpose

[OutSourcingIsTreason]

Linux: for teaching programming and computing.

Windows: for Solitaire.

More like the end of the OPLC project

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't do deals with those people.

Typical MS tactic

[Anonymous Coward]

Announce a new product so people will hold off buying the existing solution.
Competition withers, dies, and Microsoft drops the product which they couldn't have delivered anyway.

WTF!?

[MerlinsMinute]

Microsoft has finally found a way to allow a virus to infect Linux. The virus is Windows! What the hell are these people thinking?

OLPC what ?

[savuporo]

I dont get why slashdot needs two posts about OLPC per day when stuff like really available and accessible cheap open source laptops like Zonbu go largely unnoticed.

Re:OLPC what ?

[cptdondo]

Ummm.... Because you can buy two OLPCs and a nice dinner for the price of a Zonbu? The price (without the subscription) is $479, about what I'd expect to pay for a decent entry-level laptop.

Imagination Vacum / Rapist Mind

[ludditetechnologies]

Strong words indeed, but the corporate culture and behavior of M$ (and Intel) need to be stated for what they are.

Didn't have the gumption or give a fuck to think up something original like OLPC...

So when an altruistic, liberating and exciting project put together by some really brilliant people with a vision for humanity (that extends beyond their own wallet) reaches critical mass, the usual fucking lamers have to start out with their trite, tired, predictable tactics of "raping it" any way they can.
Go back to swan dives in the money bin Scrooge Mc'Gates et al, about the limit of your collective imagination.

Justice has a sometimes slooow and unpredictable path to it's conclusion, I'm hoping in the case of this utterly heart warming project that it's a path I can be at peace with. If those dollar drones drag down the culmination of so much excellent work (Linux, hardware advances by Mary and all the rest, etc etc) it will be a sad day for all

Negroponte is probably twice as smart as me and knows the potential pitfalls a MS partnership could entail, I just hope OLPC can pull it off without being derailed.

(Like a previous poster said, maybe Google could push a bit)

sudden chnge of heart

[Anonymous Coward]

What? Did I hear correctly, microsoft thinks choice is important? What changed? They have traditionally voided warranties when people try to put linux into the bootloader, and would forbid companies from doing it, bringing lawsuits if they tried. Now all of a sudden with Linux pre-installed, microsoft got the 'we need choice' religion? What a bunch of ass hats!

there goes that project!

[Anonymous Coward]

Fools! Nice idea while it lasted! Maybe it isn't too late, someone who works there might be reading this thread..

Hey, dumbass OLPC guys! Ya, YOU! Go back in history and look at MS and what happens to other companies that have anything to do with them, take yer time....

Seen enough? It ain't too late, tell em to buzz off before they infect and infest you with non fixable expensive cooties. Guess what, you ain't special, I don't care how leet you think you are, there is no way to avoid the poisonous toxic taint of those criminal bozos once you climb into bed with them. Ever watch Charlie Brown going to kick the football with Lucy holding it? That's you as Charlie Brown, Lucy is Microsoft, and the football-the laptop project- will become hers once she gets her hands on it and you'll just fall flat on your ass after being hoodwinked. That is the only track record MS has for anyone to look at, take it as reality.. If you want another story, the tale of the scorpion trying to get across the river. MS as a corporation was born, run in the past and continues to run in the present as a pure predatory exploitative cut throat, fuck everyone else, lie through their teeth old robber baron styled monopoly. That is their full complete business model.

Um, 2K DOESN'T do what you need

[Anonymous Coward]

You just said so: if you move to two cores, you'll need XP pro.

Guess what, Linux you don't have to.

And what is it that you need from a computer that Linux doesn't provide? Games? Well, there ARE games for Linux but then again, will any be ported to the XO? OSS games could be.

So what could it be and how well would such a process run on XO hardware?

Re:Um, 2K DOESN'T do what you need

[Smidge204]

More than two cores. 2K supports up to 2 CPUs and does not distinguish between CPU sockets and multi-core packages. By the current cycle of things, my Core 2 Duo system will "need replacing" by about 2010. I'll see where things stand when the time comes.

What do I need that Linux doesn't provide? Hmm. The biggest item on the list is AutoCAD Building Systems, currently 2008 version. (Wine doesn't cut it, BTW.) Without that I don't get a paycheck, so once that's settled we can discuss the other software I need/want.

I'd also like to reinforce the fact that I am NOT defending Windows on the XO. It's an amazingly stupid idea no matter how you slice it.
=Smidge=

Re:Not all code needs to be made visible-- May not

[davidsyes]

control the whole SHEbang, but ms are going after the whole HEbang...

"Why not? Most of those posting anti-MS comments seem to think that if any version of Windows makes it to the XO, then MS will completely control the whole shebang"

Unlike Apple, right

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember when I was in elementary school and Apple had made deals so that every school had Apple computers in them. How dare Microsoft copy Apple!

And they turned Apple down ...

[Udo Schmitz]

Anyone else remembers how they turned down Steve Jobs' offer of a free Mac OS X?

"Apple offered free licenses of Mac OS X for MIT's proposed $100 laptop initiative, however, the proposal offered by Apple's CEO Steve Jobs was declined because the program was looking for open-source software [...]"

Uhuh, yeah, right ...

Re:And they turned Apple down ...

[LinuxDon]

The OLPC project has been to ambitious in the beginning. They only wanted to sell it to 3th world country's, taken ages to develop the thing and only wanted to use open source software.
What they've ended up with is a lack of cash and a laptop that costs almost twice as much as intended. Commercial manufactures have developed something similar in only a fraction of the time and also sell it commercially. And now the OLPC project has to make all kinds of concessions.

As I've said more than a year ago, they should have just sold the thing commercially to get some cash flow going. Now they're even going as far as selling their sole to MS.
And the "buy one get one" initiative is a joke at this point in time, for EUR 450,- you'll have a full blown laptop with much better specs. If they'd sold them one year earlier for 350,- they would have had much better chances to succeed.

Nah

[Anonymous Coward]

He needs to play along and make sure Microsoft think they're onto a winner. Then when MS pull out of any competing projects, do an about face.

That's how Microsoft behave, it's how everyone else needs to start treating them.

Dual Boot System

[softdevs]

Whats the use of dual boot system?

Obvious solution for MS - totally EU compliant

[Anonymous Coward]

Negroponte will have to OEM license the Linux based preload on the OLPC, and any future supplier who is thinking about bundling anything but the original OLPC stuff should be charged through the nose or lose the ability to sell OLPC at all.

Microsoft, OTOH, should only be allowed to supply an extra CD with the system, at a huge charge. I can't see why MS should get an easier ride than they have given others - screw them.

Can I mine you?

[crocodyl]

Was hoping I could mine the collective wisdom/angst against Microsoft to help build a company profile on CorpWatch's wiki, Crocodyl. Their Wikipedia profile is waay too nice.

This is rediculous!

[TheDarkener]

Why dual boot?? This is going to completely dissolve the OLPC project. It's going to get too complicated, people are going to start asking fundamental questions about the project, and it's going to die.

Good job M$, you sank a great project and stifled the adoption of computers in 3rd world countries. You've effectively reversed your role as a contributer to the world of technology.

FUCK!

The price just went up...

[johnny cashed]

Now you have to buy four to keep one.

POLPC

[XB-70]

I am one of the many, many thousands who donated to OLPC through the G1G1 program. That was back in November. For my donation, I have received exactly ONE email.

The program is way behind it's production schedule. Chief Technology Officer Mary Lou Jepsen has left the project. Intel has raped OLPC's network of connections of influential 3rd world decision-makers in order to flog their lesser product. Today, Bill Gates takes the hopes, good will, dreams and incredible hard work of all of us in the open source world and, in one fell swoop, lays everything to waste. This is one of the most demoralizing news stories that I have ever read. I'm not going to sit still for this. Please join me in the following:

Introducing: POLPC: Personal One Laptop Per Child.

Here's how it works:

Donors: call your credit card company and notify them that you have either a) not received what your XO laptop and you want to stop the donation to OLPC or b) sent your laptop back and request a complete refund. Don't take no for an answer.

Now, we have to take that 'donated' money and turn it into good.

1.Buy a cheap, used laptop, install Ubuntu and test it fully. (Google your local LUG (Linux User Group) if you need help - I guarantee that they will help you out if you tell them what you are doing.)

2a. Talk to friends, neighbours and acquaintances - find for people traveling to third world countries that you trust or...

2b. Next time you fly, talk to airline personnel who are traveling regularly to third world countries. Ask them to participate in POLPC.

3. Give them the laptop and ask them to donate it to a school as part of their trip abroad.

Let's keep the spirit of the project going, but take the money away from this lunatic organization that is unraveling at a prodigious rate and do our own job of helping the innocents of the world with complete control.

If you have a better idea, I'm open to suggestions because I'm so traumatized by the lunacy that is going on at OLPC that I'm not thinking straight. We must stop this madness.

Why not triple boot so children can boot Linux?

[anwyn]

The highly educational program KStars can not be run on a OLPC because it runs under KDE not Sugar. But someone could create a stripped down kde environment capable of running KStars.

BTW, the KDE windows manager is not needed to run kde programs, just X11 and the KDE libraries.

If the OLPC supported triple boot, then people could create alternate ways to run programs that are not written in sugar, but booting REAL LINUX!

Re:Why not triple boot so children can boot Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think stellarium should work

Translated

[uhlume]

Microsoft has embraced the open-source community over the past few years in a very different way than before, Negroponte said.

Now with new Reach-Around Action(TM)!

Those that fail to learn from history...

[Anonymous Coward]

...are doomed to repeat it.

"Peaceful Co-Existence? Right."

What the olpc wiki says

[zygwin]

http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_myths#The_laptop_will_run_a_Microsoft_Windows_operating_system

The OLPC is going down on its own...

[arbirk]

Here's why: The rise and fall of the OLPC

Windows on an XO?

[Anonymous Coward]

Picture provided for appropriate analogy http://www.strangevehicles.com/images/content/110985.jpg

Re:Why, again, is Windows desirable for this marke

[ribond]

I'm not sure I get it.

Ahh good, I can help with that.

Windows costs more than Linux

Initial purchase? No argument.

[Windows] requires more and deeper technical support

That seems non-obvious. When did Linux become renowned for it's ease of use? What about Windows (documented in a billion books, used by support staffs around the world, blah blah blah) provides less accessible support than Linux, which is documented here and in a long series of books with funny animals on the cover?

To my mind, Windows seems like an expensive and unneeded distraction for these children.

It would be better to give the the benefit of an OS with a steadily-miniscule market share used by a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction of the computing population? I don't see how your arguments against windows really make for a compelling argument in favor of linux. I do like the tone (stop windows, think of the children) but mostly I'm thinking these kids need iPhones.

Dual sentiments

[vegiVamp]

On the one hand, MS is playing their know-how of flash-and-easy very well here. While we've come a long way in recent years, the Linux desktop is still not quite up to the standard of the Windows one. Too much inconsistency between apps, too many strange design and feature choices, too many simple tasks made unnecesarily complex.

On the other hand, the objective of the OLPC is for the children to LEARN. Their current situation is the best incentive their is for them to *want* to learn as much as possible. After they get done with the easy toys from MS, they'll be starting to want more. They'll drop back into Linux, and find that not only it is actually not quite that hard to learn, but that they are also free to modify it and add to it in whatever way they see fit, and that it allows them to learn a great deal more about computers than Windows.

Additionally, when you look at it objectively, a knowledge of both systems is going to make those children very attractive to the IT market when they come of age. I think, all in all, this is actually a good thing to happen.

Re:Blah blah blah...

[JohnBailey]

"Oh the Ubuntu free help group didn't give me an answer I wanted! Waah! And when tehy did give me an answer that answered the question I posed and told them off that it wasn't the answer I wanted, they told me another way that wasn't what I wanted! Waaah waaah! And when I called them all poopy-heads they said that wasn't very nice of me! They OPPRESSED ME!!!!! Waaaaaaaahhhhhhh!" FFS, get over it. You don't like Ubuntu, then shut the fuck up about it and use something else. Your continuation of this stupid little shit storm you created is nauseating in the extreme. Grow up and move on. Twat. Are you kidding?? His posts are the definitive example of how not to post on any forum. I'm sure the response he got has recruited many new Ubuntu users too. Any forum that didn't chew up and spit out such a dipstick after the third post has got to be noob tolerant. Perhaps he is part of an Ubuntu reverse psychology astroturfing plan.

Trustworthy boot manager?

[MessyBlob]

Could you trust M$ to write the boot manager? A way in, perhaps? Adverts, default choices?

Why not boot to a hypervisor instead?

[Nefarious Wheel]

Booting the little thing into a thin hypervisor and running Linux and Windows virtualised? Sure, it'll swap, but you could keep the context as you did and you wouldn't have to reboot to switch.

In other news, Microsoft vigorously denies it

[Joce640k]

According to a statement from a Microsoft spokesman:

"While we have investigated the possibility in the past, Microsoft is not developing dual-boot Windows XP support for One Laptop Per Child's XO laptop."

http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=1096

And guess which OS will be the default one...

[ladquin]

"Could this be the end of the OS wars in Nigeria and other developing countries?" This question really made me laugh... OS wars in Nigeria???? Im not really sure they care a lot about having a dual boot laptop when they have bigger concerns. By the way, havent they suffered enough to have to suffer the most painful software ever? I live in another of these so called developing countries, where OLPC is trying to reach too, and I do know this wonderfull idea will end no war. People will just remain ignorant about the truth and will be forced to believe a wolf can look after a sheep.

wtf?

[pak9rabid]

I'm quickly losing faith in the OLPC project as they make decisions like this...

Storage space?

[Anonymous Coward]

The XO doesn't have a harddisk, and unless you want to get expensive, flash devices are only around 1-2GB.
Is Microsoft really suggesting they can fit Windows, the original XO operating system and the ebooks, etc. all into 2 gigabytes????

I don't see how they could do it unless they ship a modified version of WinCE or something like that.

Wow

[mstahl]

Right off the bat, three sodomy jokes in a row, all of them gold! Congratulations Slashdotters. We're a real internet community like 4chan now!

MS OLPC Dual-boot screen

[JimDaGeek]

Welcome to OLPC.
You may select to boot the Communist version of OLPC. Please note that if you continue, you may lose your family and your straw hut. If you want to be "safe" you better only click on the MS Windows link.

* MS Windows (Safe and you won't die) <---- Click this to live and not die!
* Linux??? (you will probably die)

(c)ms olpc, boot ver 1.1

Still finding a market for

[garphik]

Windows 95 / 3.1, again.