And I know the browser crashing a couple of times a day sounds like excruciating pain now, but this was 1998; there was no such thing as a browser that could go all day without crashing.
Around 1998 is when I switched to IE (before FF came out) and it could go days without crashing.
I'll stop feeding the trolls now; I don't want to have to formulate my posts in first-order logic to avoid further intentional misunderstandings.
So you're one of those people that can't admit when they're wrong and find some way to change the you're trying to say.
The question was why doesn't the € symbol show up when someone types it in using their keyboard.
I responded that it's not included in the character set to which you said:
So? It's not exactly hard to turn a UTF bytestream into a series of Latin-1 characters and HTML entities.
But you assumed that the application was receiving a UTF bytestream which is wrong.
The only way you might be able to do it is in the browser with javascript but in that case, it's probably also using iso-8859-1 which doesn't have the euro symbol.. Even if you could, that would be "hard to do" because any stupid bit of javascript has to be tested for all the stupid ways browsers handle java script and the nature of slashdot probably means that it sees a lot of different types of browsers on different OSs.
So if you want to prove me wrong, build a we b application that starts with a form in iso-8859-1 encoding, can receive the € symbol, not the characters that make up the character reference, without changing the character-set on the page, and have the application return a page in the iso-8859-1 character set that has translated the € symbol into €.
Read my post again. I said "the actual supported character set"
Slashdot sends the information that it's using iso-8859-1. It's possible they are using only a subset of it because they filter out some characters/strings for security reasons, but they can't send/receive characters that are outside of the character set the page is using. I don't know what Slashdot-1 is do you have any more info on it? Do you work on the Slashdot code? Slashcode seems to use UTF-8 by default.
I think that characters outside the specified character set are also sent, but with unspecified representation... but that might be browser-specific or I simply remember it wrongly.
The behavior I described is part of the HTML 4.0 spec. Any browser that doesn't follow that behavior would not be compliant with the HTML spec. That behavior would probably cause problems for developers.
I don't know why you're having a hard time understanding this. The euro character is not part of the iso-8859-1 character set that the page uses which is specified. It doesn't exist in this context.
fact that Sun and now Oracle have done such a poor job with it.
If it's a fact can you point to some evidence of what Sun and Oracle (which doesn't yet own and control Sun/MySQL) have done that can be classified as a poor job that wasn't happening before Sun bought it?
When Sun bought it, the old MySQL AB execs were talking about keeping some new stuff closed but Sun made them open source it.
Some of the latest releases probably came out too early (according to Monty) but that's not any different than when MySQL AB was it's own entity.
Since Sun bought MySQL they kept it more open and increased it's revenue.
People stopped using NN because it started to suck. It would crash on me multiple times a day.
There's also the question of whether Microsoft will conceded defeat if their market share drops too low.
There's also the question that the Mozilla foundation could disband in 2011 if their market share doesn't significantly increase and Google doesn't feel the money it's paying, that accounts for the majority of Mozilla's revenue, is worth it. Especially now that they have their own independent browser offering.
Analysts are notroriously wrong a large portion of the time You can also find plenty of examples on this site bashing stories where analysts decided a microsoft product was better/faster/cheaper/more secure than an open source solution. Don't be a hypocrite and rely on analyst opinion only when it aligns with your views.
It's one thing to speculate, it's another thing to come across like a FUD campaign that rivals the big boys. Or optimistic vs dellussional.
Would this be the same netcraft that gives the results corporations like Apple and Microsoft pay for? You may as well be quoting IDG or Gartner figures, it all amounts to the same.
Please have a clue next time you attempt to make pithy statement or have something to back it up.
Netcraft's webserver surveys are created by the data they collect spidering websites.
You're probably confusing them with Mind Craft which drew some flames for a benchmark back in 1999.
I basically only use IE as a preview tool when I'm developing websites so I'm not biased towards IE.
Dodos are extinct, as long as IE is installed by default in Windows, IE will not be extinct for a long time. Want to see what extinction of a web browser looks like?
When every analyst in the market (short of those on the Microsoft payroll) is allied against you, you're not going to maintain a leading spot forever.
Analysts don't determine what browser people use, they just try and predict it. If analysts are controlling the browser market it is through FUD and self fulfilling prophecy.
My personal expectation is that IE market share decline will accelerate over the next year rather than slow. i.e. The hockey stick effect tends to work both ways.
That's my point. There is no guarantee what is going to happen. It could get worse it could get better it could stay the same. Saying it with certainty just makes people look stupid.
Only thing slow today seems to be google. Is there some sort of Level 3 outage or something? I know Google News was down earlier in the Northeast but now it seems google video, youtube and search are affected as well.
Anyway... can we stop saying stupid crap like "Once IE's market share goes the way of the Dodo"?
Just because something is declining now that there is a serious competitor in the market place doesn't mean that the decline will go on at the same rate or indefinitely. Look at webserver trends.
Every time I hear stuff like that I just picture those little dogs that bark at big dogs.
I was working on a site called "Is Your Credit Card Number Hot or Not" but this news might taint my target market to think that I'm using the site for the wrong reasons. Oh well, good thing I didn't spend too much time on the companion sites "Your SSN Can Predict Your Future" and "How Your Mother's Maiden Name Affects Impotence"
The "problem", as you pointed out, is that Java has a lot of options while Ruby has Rails and Python has Django and that's about it. You could build a similar tool set with Java/stack with Java to increase productivity. There are Java MVC frameworks, CRUD application generators, persistence strategies, code generators, and so on. A good Java IDE helps peice them together.
It could/should be better though but with the right set of tools/frameworks/libraries you can be very productive in Java.
Yeah, screw all this collaboration crap. Lets get back to a single vendor proprietary solution. Someone please inform sourceforge that we will no longer be needing their services.
Except on everything not x86. The speed you currently see on desktop/server java is only accomplished by very good JustInTime compilers. Which are tweaked for x86. So everything else runs java like crap.
Have you not heard of Jazelle? It supprots just in time and ahead of time compilers for ARM and is mentioned in the wikipedia link you gave.
It provides direct execution of Java bytecode and was announced in 2000.
Character references are independent of the character set being used.
The actual supported character set is "Slashdot-1", not Latin-1
Funny, the html source is telling my browser that it's using the iso-8859-1 character set.
meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"
so it would seem plausible that it should also be able to detect the Euro sign in the input data and automatically turn it into a character reference.
Form data (POSTed) is submitted in the character set of the document it is enclosed in unless otherwise specified.
The fact still remains that the character set they instruct the browser to use doesn't support the euro symbol so the only way to get it is to use character reference.
When you type the euro symbol on a keyboard that supports it, it doesn't include the HTML markup for the euro symbol character reference, it includes the actual character.
Before the request gets to the servers, it is converted to iso-8859-1 so they probably don't even see that the euro symbol was entered.
You didn't watch the video in the link. It had more information than the linked article, as did other articles.
"Someone also took some spray and tried to deodorize the air and it turned out it was a spot cleaner not a deodorant and it made peope very sick, " says Capt. Barry Stallard of the San Jose fire department.
She might not have been in the area where the spot cleaner was sprayed.
The policy of not eviscerating your corporate IT structure on bleeding-edge software is sound, but in terms of the browser, or any other app in isolation, the best security is going to come from the latest version. And by enabling SELinux.
That's not true for most software used in business where the product hasn't been EOL'd and important software usually has a long shelf-life because most businesses won't purchase software without a long support term.
All software has security issues and a lot of those security issues are only discovered after they have been out in the world for a while because it is impossible to do enough QA to find every possible problem. A product can be out in use for years and still receive regular security updates for vulnerabilities that weren't discovered when it first came out.
If a new version comes out it will have new features as well as having some bug and security patches. Those bug and security patches will be backported to the old version and any other versions that are still supported. These life cycles can be quite long, for example Solaris has a 10 year life cycle.
People don't want to have to worry about migrating software that works but they expect it to work as long as possible and be secure.
Now, whenever you release new features, those new features haven't gone through the public QA cycle where real life people put it through real life workloads where other problems and security issues may come up that the limited resources of the vendor's QA team couldn't find. So now you not only have to worry about what security issues there were in the previous release that haven't come to light, you also have to worry about the new issues in new code that have barely been used.
A lot of people are only searching for a little bit of information and it's that little bit of information that leads them to your site.
Here's an example. Have you ever read something online and run across a word you weren't familiar with or weren't sure of the context it was being used in so you wanted to look up the definition?
So you google the word. Now look at all the page snippets. Either by the web developers design, or maybe with the help of Google, the definition doesn't appear in the snippet. You have to click on the link to get to the definition. In the past, I'm not sure if that was the case. I seem to remember being able to find the definition in the snippet.
You could use the define: directive but that's not as popular.
Running old versions of software for improved security sounds like eating rotten food to avoid getting swine flu.
No, it's more like keeping the prize you have vs exchanging it for what's behind curtain #1.
People need to test important software to make sure it works well in their environment. That means not only checking for security issues but making sure something like a new browser will not cause issues for the various in-house and external web applications that are important to the organization. If there are any problems you might have to redo some code that was otherwise working fine.
Then you have to train your support staff on the new software to deal with any issues that might come up and possibly train other staff.
Add it into your change control system to deploy it to all the locked down workstations since most of your users don't have rights to install software since that can be a security and support nightmare.
That takes a lot of time and resources to do. If there's no real incentive to upgrade browsers why bother with the hassle.
It doesn't sound like you've ever worked in the IT department of any medium to large sized business.
Sounds to me like Google is simply launching a product to compete against Wolfram Alpha's pending release.
Both products have their problems.
Basically, they grab data from different websites and present it in a way that eliminates the necessity of visiting the actual site.
That's going to hurt a lot of website owners that depend on the traffic they get from Google.
I don't like it and expect a lot of webmasters to not like it either. If they use a separate bot to tabulate the data, it will quickly be blocked by many. If they use the current data they have and the same crawler then say goodbye to Google's dominance in the search market as people block google and request their sites be removed from the index.
With fewer sites in the index the search will become less useful and people will use other options.
What they are basically doing is building something like wikipedia dynamically. The difference is editors in wikipedia voluntarily contribute content. With these new tools, that's not the case.
If the output were public, you would KNOW what the police are watching. You would KNOW what they look at. And knowing we are watching them will keep them honest.
You may know the intentions of the person videotaping it, but if anyone has access to it you won't be able to know everyone viewer's intention. You won't even know who the viewers are.
could be IR? Even cheap digital cameras can work well as IR cameras. Just remove the IR filter. Maybe replace it with a filter that only allows IR light.
Then you can also use a controller with it that has IR LEDs in it as well.
Maybe it's a conspiracy by the paint industry. They have too much leftover green pigment?
Slashdot Mirror
And I know the browser crashing a couple of times a day sounds like excruciating pain now, but this was 1998; there was no such thing as a browser that could go all day without crashing.
Around 1998 is when I switched to IE (before FF came out) and it could go days without crashing.
I'll stop feeding the trolls now; I don't want to have to formulate my posts in first-order logic to avoid further intentional misunderstandings.
So you're one of those people that can't admit when they're wrong and find some way to change the you're trying to say.
The question was why doesn't the € symbol show up when someone types it in using their keyboard.
I responded that it's not included in the character set to which you said:
So? It's not exactly hard to turn a UTF bytestream into a series of Latin-1 characters and HTML entities.
But you assumed that the application was receiving a UTF bytestream which is wrong.
The only way you might be able to do it is in the browser with javascript but in that case, it's probably also using iso-8859-1 which doesn't have the euro symbol.. Even if you could, that would be "hard to do" because any stupid bit of javascript has to be tested for all the stupid ways browsers handle java script and the nature of slashdot probably means that it sees a lot of different types of browsers on different OSs.
So if you want to prove me wrong, build a we b application that starts with a form in iso-8859-1 encoding, can receive the € symbol, not the characters that make up the character reference, without changing the character-set on the page, and have the application return a page in the iso-8859-1 character set that has translated the € symbol into €.
God I hope you're a paid shill, think you're helping the cause or this is some joke and you don't really believe the crap you're saying.
Read my post again. I said "the actual supported character set"
Slashdot sends the information that it's using iso-8859-1. It's possible they are using only a subset of it because they filter out some characters/strings for security reasons, but they can't send/receive characters that are outside of the character set the page is using. I don't know what Slashdot-1 is do you have any more info on it? Do you work on the Slashdot code? Slashcode seems to use UTF-8 by default.
I think that characters outside the specified character set are also sent, but with unspecified representation... but that might be browser-specific or I simply remember it wrongly.
The behavior I described is part of the HTML 4.0 spec. Any browser that doesn't follow that behavior would not be compliant with the HTML spec. That behavior would probably cause problems for developers.
I don't know why you're having a hard time understanding this. The euro character is not part of the iso-8859-1 character set that the page uses which is specified. It doesn't exist in this context.
fact that Sun and now Oracle have done such a poor job with it.
If it's a fact can you point to some evidence of what Sun and Oracle (which doesn't yet own and control Sun/MySQL) have done that can be classified as a poor job that wasn't happening before Sun bought it?
When Sun bought it, the old MySQL AB execs were talking about keeping some new stuff closed but Sun made them open source it.
Some of the latest releases probably came out too early (according to Monty) but that's not any different than when MySQL AB was it's own entity.
Since Sun bought MySQL they kept it more open and increased it's revenue.
People stopped using NN because it started to suck. It would crash on me multiple times a day.
There's also the question of whether Microsoft will conceded defeat if their market share drops too low.
There's also the question that the Mozilla foundation could disband in 2011 if their market share doesn't significantly increase and Google doesn't feel the money it's paying, that accounts for the majority of Mozilla's revenue, is worth it. Especially now that they have their own independent browser offering.
Analysts are notroriously wrong a large portion of the time You can also find plenty of examples on this site bashing stories where analysts decided a microsoft product was better/faster/cheaper/more secure than an open source solution. Don't be a hypocrite and rely on analyst opinion only when it aligns with your views.
It's one thing to speculate, it's another thing to come across like a FUD campaign that rivals the big boys. Or optimistic vs dellussional.
Would this be the same netcraft that gives the results corporations like Apple and Microsoft pay for? You may as well be quoting IDG or Gartner figures, it all amounts to the same.
Please have a clue next time you attempt to make pithy statement or have something to back it up.
Netcraft's webserver surveys are created by the data they collect spidering websites.
You're probably confusing them with Mind Craft which drew some flames for a benchmark back in 1999.
I basically only use IE as a preview tool when I'm developing websites so I'm not biased towards IE.
Dodos are extinct, as long as IE is installed by default in Windows, IE will not be extinct for a long time. Want to see what extinction of a web browser looks like?
When every analyst in the market (short of those on the Microsoft payroll) is allied against you, you're not going to maintain a leading spot forever.
Analysts don't determine what browser people use, they just try and predict it. If analysts are controlling the browser market it is through FUD and self fulfilling prophecy.
My personal expectation is that IE market share decline will accelerate over the next year rather than slow. i.e. The hockey stick effect tends to work both ways.
That's my point. There is no guarantee what is going to happen. It could get worse it could get better it could stay the same. Saying it with certainty just makes people look stupid.
Only thing slow today seems to be google. Is there some sort of Level 3 outage or something? I know Google News was down earlier in the Northeast but now it seems google video, youtube and search are affected as well.
Anyway... can we stop saying stupid crap like "Once IE's market share goes the way of the Dodo"?
Just because something is declining now that there is a serious competitor in the market place doesn't mean that the decline will go on at the same rate or indefinitely. Look at webserver trends.
Every time I hear stuff like that I just picture those little dogs that bark at big dogs.
Which Feminine Hygiene Product Are You? quiz....
I was working on a site called "Is Your Credit Card Number Hot or Not" but this news might taint my target market to think that I'm using the site for the wrong reasons. Oh well, good thing I didn't spend too much time on the companion sites "Your SSN Can Predict Your Future" and "How Your Mother's Maiden Name Affects Impotence"
The "problem", as you pointed out, is that Java has a lot of options while Ruby has Rails and Python has Django and that's about it. You could build a similar tool set with Java/stack with Java to increase productivity. There are Java MVC frameworks, CRUD application generators, persistence strategies, code generators, and so on. A good Java IDE helps peice them together.
It could/should be better though but with the right set of tools/frameworks/libraries you can be very productive in Java.
Java had a horrible case of too many cooks.
Yeah, screw all this collaboration crap. Lets get back to a single vendor proprietary solution. Someone please inform sourceforge that we will no longer be needing their services.
Except on everything not x86. The speed you currently see on desktop/server java is only accomplished by very good JustInTime compilers. Which are tweaked for x86. So everything else runs java like crap.
Have you not heard of Jazelle? It supprots just in time and ahead of time compilers for ARM and is mentioned in the wikipedia link you gave.
It provides direct execution of Java bytecode and was announced in 2000.
Character references are independent of the character set being used.
The actual supported character set is "Slashdot-1", not Latin-1
Funny, the html source is telling my browser that it's using the iso-8859-1 character set.
meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"
so it would seem plausible that it should also be able to detect the Euro sign in the input data and automatically turn it into a character reference.
Form data (POSTed) is submitted in the character set of the document it is enclosed in unless otherwise specified.
The fact still remains that the character set they instruct the browser to use doesn't support the euro symbol so the only way to get it is to use character reference.
When you type the euro symbol on a keyboard that supports it, it doesn't include the HTML markup for the euro symbol character reference, it includes the actual character.
Before the request gets to the servers, it is converted to iso-8859-1 so they probably don't even see that the euro symbol was entered.
Yeah cause Craigslist is so Web 2.0 except for the choice of font?
You didn't watch the video in the link. It had more information than the linked article, as did other articles.
"Someone also took some spray and tried to deodorize the air and it turned out it was a spot cleaner not a deodorant and it made peope very sick, " says Capt. Barry Stallard of the San Jose fire department.
She might not have been in the area where the spot cleaner was sprayed.
OK, you have to fill me in. What's with the shovel? I haven't followed the band in a while. Did some searching and didn't find anything.
Not even in wikipedia but I did learn he sang backup for Life in Still Water which was one of my favorite songs to play.
Got a link to the digging story?
The policy of not eviscerating your corporate IT structure on bleeding-edge software is sound, but in terms of the browser, or any other app in isolation, the best security is going to come from the latest version. And by enabling SELinux.
That's not true for most software used in business where the product hasn't been EOL'd and important software usually has a long shelf-life because most businesses won't purchase software without a long support term.
All software has security issues and a lot of those security issues are only discovered after they have been out in the world for a while because it is impossible to do enough QA to find every possible problem. A product can be out in use for years and still receive regular security updates for vulnerabilities that weren't discovered when it first came out.
If a new version comes out it will have new features as well as having some bug and security patches. Those bug and security patches will be backported to the old version and any other versions that are still supported. These life cycles can be quite long, for example Solaris has a 10 year life cycle.
People don't want to have to worry about migrating software that works but they expect it to work as long as possible and be secure.
Now, whenever you release new features, those new features haven't gone through the public QA cycle where real life people put it through real life workloads where other problems and security issues may come up that the limited resources of the vendor's QA team couldn't find. So now you not only have to worry about what security issues there were in the previous release that haven't come to light, you also have to worry about the new issues in new code that have barely been used.
So?
the euro sign is not in the ISO-8859-1 character set.
A lot of people are only searching for a little bit of information and it's that little bit of information that leads them to your site.
Here's an example. Have you ever read something online and run across a word you weren't familiar with or weren't sure of the context it was being used in so you wanted to look up the definition?
So you google the word. Now look at all the page snippets. Either by the web developers design, or maybe with the help of Google, the definition doesn't appear in the snippet. You have to click on the link to get to the definition. In the past, I'm not sure if that was the case. I seem to remember being able to find the definition in the snippet.
You could use the define: directive but that's not as popular.
Running old versions of software for improved security sounds like eating rotten food to avoid getting swine flu.
No, it's more like keeping the prize you have vs exchanging it for what's behind curtain #1.
People need to test important software to make sure it works well in their environment. That means not only checking for security issues but making sure something like a new browser will not cause issues for the various in-house and external web applications that are important to the organization. If there are any problems you might have to redo some code that was otherwise working fine.
Then you have to train your support staff on the new software to deal with any issues that might come up and possibly train other staff.
Add it into your change control system to deploy it to all the locked down workstations since most of your users don't have rights to install software since that can be a security and support nightmare.
That takes a lot of time and resources to do. If there's no real incentive to upgrade browsers why bother with the hassle.
It doesn't sound like you've ever worked in the IT department of any medium to large sized business.
Sounds to me like Google is simply launching a product to compete against Wolfram Alpha's pending release.
Both products have their problems.
Basically, they grab data from different websites and present it in a way that eliminates the necessity of visiting the actual site.
That's going to hurt a lot of website owners that depend on the traffic they get from Google.
I don't like it and expect a lot of webmasters to not like it either. If they use a separate bot to tabulate the data, it will quickly be blocked by many. If they use the current data they have and the same crawler then say goodbye to Google's dominance in the search market as people block google and request their sites be removed from the index.
With fewer sites in the index the search will become less useful and people will use other options.
What they are basically doing is building something like wikipedia dynamically. The difference is editors in wikipedia voluntarily contribute content. With these new tools, that's not the case.
If the output were public, you would KNOW what the police are watching. You would KNOW what they look at. And knowing we are watching them will keep them honest.
You may know the intentions of the person videotaping it, but if anyone has access to it you won't be able to know everyone viewer's intention. You won't even know who the viewers are.
why does Slashdot not display the Euro sign correctly when pretty much every other internet forum does?
because of the encoding they use in their html. It is ISO-8859-1 not UTF-8
Since when did /. start letting in non-geeks? :P
could be IR? Even cheap digital cameras can work well as IR cameras. Just remove the IR filter. Maybe replace it with a filter that only allows IR light.
Then you can also use a controller with it that has IR LEDs in it as well.
Maybe it's a conspiracy by the paint industry. They have too much leftover green pigment?