Craigslist Kills Erotic Services Ads, Will Launch Adult Section

CWmike writes "Submitting to mounting legal pressure, Craigslist has announced that it will remove the Erotic Services category from its classified advertising Web site within seven days. The move comes just two and a half weeks after Jim Buckmaster, CEO of Craigslist, told Computerworld that the company had no intention of removing the category. While it's taking down the category, it will be launching a new category called Adult Services, for which each posting will be manually reviewed before it appears. 'Unsurprisingly, but completely contrary to some of the sensationalistic journalism we've seen these past few weeks, the record is clear that use of Craigslist classifieds is associated with far lower rates of violent crime than print classifieds, let alone rates of violent crime pertaining to American society as a whole,' said Buckmaster in a blog post today. 'We are optimistic that the new balance struck today will be an acceptable compromise from the perspective of the constituencies, and for the diverse US communities that value and rely upon Craigslist.'"

Comments

Unemployment Rates

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh no, now we're sure to see a spike in the unemployment rates as all the hookers file as first-timers.

Re:Unemployment Rates

[cayenne8]

Damn..I was really hoping they'd fight this one.

From what I read of CL's lawyers earlier releases, it seemed that they could indeed have withstood and won any court battles that would have come their way. I was hoping some good precedents would have been set....

Re:Unemployment Rates

[FatdogHaiku]

Oh no, now we're sure to see a spike in the unemployment rates as all the hookers file as first-timers.

Sure, but just imagine the kind of stuff they will write in the "Previous Positions" section of the work history forms...

Re:Unemployment Rates

[winkydink]

I'm sure lots of slashdotters were hoping CL would fight this one. Without easy access to hookers, many slashdotters would never get laid.

Re:Unemployment Rates

[jcr]

I was really hoping they'd fight this one.

That's a bit unrealistic. Not many businesses would try to fight for their rights under the first amendment when they're facing an opponent with a limitless tax-funded litigation budget.

The practical effect of this will be nil; anyone who wants to advertise prostitution will just find another web site, probably one located outside the USA.

-jcr

Re:Unemployment Rates

[Anonymous Coward]

aww, now were am i going to get my hookers, the streets? Like they ever go there!

Re:Unemployment Rates

[whitefang1121]

Myspace, of course!!

Re:Unemployment Rates

[Anonymous Coward]

He's a commie and commie's love censorship.

Re:Unemployment Rates

[Sun.Jedi]

The practical effect of this will be nil; anyone who wants to advertise prostitution will just find another web site, probably one located outside the USA.

Don't underestimate the ability for current CL users to 'create' their own language when posting ads.

My guess; not much changes in the 'services', just what they are called.

Re:Unemployment Rates

[rirugrat]

Vegas baby!

Re:Unemployment Rates

[SupremoMan]

Everyone loves censorship, if you had the power to censor anyone in the world, wouldn't you love it? There are quite a few people in the world I would love to shut the hell up for good.

Re:Unemployment Rates

[westlake]

was really hoping they'd fight this one. From what I read of CL's lawyers earlier releases, it seemed that they could indeed have withstood and won any court battles that would have come their way

CL is a business. CL cut its losses. End of story.

Re:Unemployment Rates

[Nautical Insanity]

From what I read of CL's lawyers earlier releases, it seemed that they could indeed have withstood and won any court battles that would have come their way.

And then they read up on the TPB trial...

Re:Unemployment Rates

[Machtyn]

If I had mod points...

That's exactly what I said earlier today (except not as eloquently)

Re:Unemployment Rates

[mrsteele]

Not to mention I'm completely baffled how the AGs are up in arms about these sections, calling them 'dangerous', when the Casual Encounter sections are the real ones filled with scary people.

Re:Unemployment Rates

[wvmarle]

Damn..I was really hoping they'd fight this one.

And go bankrupt in the process of doing so? Lawsuits are expensive and most sensible businesses will want to avoid them. Even if they could win. They will only fight if NOT going to court will kill them off in the first place.

Re:Unemployment Rates

[assertation]

The murder of the human being that started this situation was a massage therapist.

Re:Unemployment Rates

[mattwarden]

Isn't it odd that we are essentially funding an entity to violate our Constitutional rights, and then further funding it to fight to defend its offense without end?

Weird to think about...

Re:Unemployment Rates

[jbdigriz]

Well, money talks, as a little snot from Philly in leather breeches and a carload of hotties once told me when he tried to cut in line at the car wash I was running, long, long ago. Apparently it works in San Fran, though.

Seriously, I'm sympathetic, but I can't get too worked up about this as long as prostitution remains illegal, as wrong this or any other money-talking prohibition may be. Yes, you either believe in the 1st amendment or you don't, and I do, but it seems some people are wanting to have their cake and eat it here, at the expense of more deserving causes.

You could of course say the same thing about the personals and "escort services" in the back of your local newsrag. If Craigslist isn't going to fight it, though, for sure don't ask me to go out on a limb.

Slashdotters might really want to be concerned instead about HR 1966, the Online Passive-Aggressive Enablement bill. Take a look at that one for some real 1st amendment shudders.

--jbdigriz

Not like it's going to make a difference

[XxtraLarGe]

They'll just use some other website instead. If there's one thing the authorities should learn it's that you can't win the game of whack-a-mole.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[geekoid]

I know it. there is a site where people are telling everyone they are committing a crime, and how to get in touch with them, and they want to shut it down?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[DrLang21]

They'll probably just move back into the personals ads on Craigslist.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Gizzmonic]

The "authorities" are mainly reacting to the Craigslist killer. They probably know this won't help in the long run, but at least it will look like they're trying. This will also disrupt prostitution temporarily, which is a good thing in their minds.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok time for a list of all post-craigslist sites.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[CaptainPatent]

If there's one thing the authorities should learn it's that you can't win the game of whack-a-mole.

And even if they do win it'll only get them enough tickets for two sparkle stickers or a bouncy ball.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[plague3106]

Of course because you're outlawing something you have no business outlawing, you drive it underground and force up prices (thus enticing more people into the act you want to ban) and make it dangerous for all involved. Instead of blasting CL for allowing the ads, they should be rethinking the law making the ads illegal in the first place. It's not like legalizing this would lead to the collapse of society... even the Church at one point allowed it.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[MyLongNickName]

you can't win the game of whack-a-mole.

Actually, I believe I read about that game in one of the "requests for erotic services"...

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

Whack-a-mole? The thought of police using big hammers to try to hit things popping up and down into holes related to adult services is just a bit painful to contemplate...

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[DrLang21]

Regulate and tax I say.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[nine-times]

Well in that version, you always win.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[gnick]

there is a site where people are telling everyone they are committing a crime, and how to get in touch with them, and they want to shut it down?

Almost. If somebody was posting ads on Craigslist that said, "I will have sex with you at your home in exchange for $150", and the Craigslist admins knew about it and ignored it - There would be a problem. But if somebody advertises "girlfriend services" or "Will come over in a school-girl uniform and talk dirty to you", that's a little different since no illegal activity is actually being advertised - Even though it may be implied. That puts Craigslist in an awkward situation.

I say that they should just encourage Craigslist to screen ads for anything blatantly illegal and use the edgier ads as leads to possibly crack down on criminals (you know... if we want to keep wasting tax $$ busting hookers...)

But you make it sound like Craigslist is engineered for encouraging crime - It's certainly not. But keeping criminal activity out of anything that flexible is going to be damned near impossible.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

That is what I'd don't understand about law enforcement antipathy to the project.

"Hey guys! There's this site where you can, like, look at pictures of hookers all day, and set up stings, all from the comfort of your desk!" "Wow, we'd better shut that one down." Srsly? Why?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[omeomi]

If somebody was posting ads on Craigslist that said, "I will have sex with you at your home in exchange for $150", and the Craigslist admins knew about it and ignored it - There would be a problem.

Isn't there some sort of legal exclusion for user-generated content? I thought, while the user can be held liable, as long as Craigslist employees aren't doing the posting, they're not legally responsible for content posted by their users? Just like Slashdot wouldn't be liable if I post DeCSS or something along those lines.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

We all know how you feel, Churchy McGee. I'm just surprised how quickly you recovered and posted after fainting from reading the word "Erotic".

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[XxtraLarGe]

...even the Church at one point allowed it.

While I agree with you for the most part, I can't think of any time prostitution has been endorsed by the "Church", which by that I take it you mean the Christian church. Christians are supposed to abstain from sex outside of marriage.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[plague3106]

While I agree with you for the most part, I can't think of any time prostitution has been endorsed by the "Church", which by that I take it you mean the Christian church. Christians are supposed to abstain from sex outside of marriage.

And yet if you do your history, the Roman Catholic church did (this was before ML).

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[gnick]

The sticky point, as I understand it, is the 'and the Craigslist admins knew about it and ignored it' issue. If you don't know it's there, it's fine (although willful negligence I think can still get you in trouble - You know, when you're notified and still turn a blind eye.) But I think that if Craigslist was unaware of and had not been informed of illegal postings, they'd probably be OK.

IANAL.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

They'll probably just move back into the personals ads on Craigslist.

That's exactly why they created the Adult section in the first place. Now the Women seeking Men section is going to be overrun until it is useless, just like before.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[PCM2]

It's not like legalizing this would lead to the collapse of society... even the Church at one point allowed it.

If by "this" you mean prostitution, rather than the posting of ads, then I venture that the collapse of society isn't the whole issue here.

Does society collapse when a hooker gets beaten up by a weirdo? Does society collapse when a bunch of Chinese girls get brought over in a shipping crate to work in a brothel? Does society collapse when a college girl's boyfriend tells her that if she wants to keep the coke coming she needs to turn a few tricks, and it will only be just once or twice? Or, when these things happen, does society just keep on humming the way it always has and nobody needs to give a damn, yet alone raise a finger?

The problem I have is not with prostitution per se, but with half-assed attempts to decriminalize prostitution that contribute to making the situation worse. There's a lot of human misery involved in the sex trade right now. Maybe legalizing prostitution will do away with all of it -- for the sake of argument, let's assume that it will. But until prostitution is really and honestly legalized, for Craigslist to allow posting of prostitution ads now is to support the sex trade as it exists right now, and I can't say I'm really for that.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[0100010001010011]

Lets double check that...

#include<stdlib.h>
typedef unsigned int uint;
char ctb[512]="33733b2663236b763e7e362b6e2e667bd393db0643034b96de9ed60b4e0e4\
69b57175f82c787cf125a1a528fca8ac21fd999d10049094190d898d001480840913d7d35246\
d2d65743c7c34256c2c6475dd9dd5044d0d4594dc9cd4054c0c449559195180c989c11058185\
081c888c011d797df0247074f92da9ad20f4a0a429f53135b86c383cb165e1e568bce8ec61bb\
3f3bba6e3a3ebf6befeb6abeeaee6fb37773f2267276f723a7a322f6a2a627fb9f9b1a0e9a9e\
1f0b8f8b0a1e8a8e0f15d1d5584cd8dc5145c1c5485cc8cc415bdfdb5a4edade5f4bcfcb4a5e\
cace4f539793120692961703878302168286071b7f7bfa2e7a7eff2bafab2afeaaae2ff";
typedef unsigned char uchar;uint tb0[11]={5,0,1,2,3,4,0,1,2,3,4};uchar* F=NULL;
uint lf0,lf1,out;void ReadKey(uchar* key){int i;char hst[3]; hst[2]=0;if(F==\
NULL){F=malloc(256);for(i=0;i<256;i++){hst[0]=ctb[2*i];hst[1]=ctb[2*i+1];F[i]=\
strtol(hst,NULL,16);}}out=0;lf0=(key[1]<<9)|key[0]|0x100;lf1=(key[4]<<16)|(key\
[3]<<8)|key[2];lf1=((lf1&0xfffff8)<<1)|(lf1&0x7)|0x8;}uchar Cipher(int sw1,\
int sw2){int i,a,b,x=0,y=0;for(i=0;i<8;i++){a=((lf0>>2)^(lf0>>16))&1;b=((lf1\
>>12)^(lf1>>20)^(lf1>>21)^(lf1>>24))&1;lf0=(lf0<<1)|a;lf1=(lf1<<1)|b;x=(x>>1)\
|(a<<7);y=(y>>1)|(b<<7);}x^=sw1;y^=sw2;return out=(out>>8)+x+y;} void \
CSSdescramble(uchar *sec,uchar *key){uint i;uchar *end=sec+0x800;uchar KEY[5];
for(i=0;i<5;i++)KEY[i]=key[i]^sec[0x54+i];ReadKey(KEY);sec+=0x80;while(sec!=\
end)*sec++=F[*sec]^Cipher(255,0);}void CSStitlekey1(uchar *key,uchar *im)
{uchar k[5];int i; ReadKey(im);for(i=0;i<5;i++)k[i]=Cipher(0,0);for(i=9;i>=0;\
i--)key[tb0[i+1]]=k[tb0[i+1]]^F[key[tb0[i+1]]]^key[tb0[i]];}void CSStitlekey2\
(uchar *key,uchar *im){uchar k[5];int i;ReadKey(im);for(i=0;i<5;i++)k[i]=\
Cipher(0,255);for(i=9;i>=0;i--)key[tb0[i+1]]=k[tb0[i+1]]^F[key[tb0[i+1]]]^key\
[tb0[i]];}void CSSdecrypttitlekey(uchar *tkey,uchar *dkey){int i;uchar im1[6];
uchar im2[6]={0x51,0x67,0x67,0xc5,0xe0,0x00};for(i=0;i<6;i++)im1[i]=dkey[i];
CSStitlekey1(im1,im2);CSStitlekey2(tkey,im1);}

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Ambiguous Puzuma]

They'll probably just move back into the personals ads on Craigslist.

They've been there all along, even with the availability of erotic services sections. Check ads in the personals sections for phrases like "roses required" or "seeking generous man".

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't there some sort of legal exclusion for user-generated content? I thought, while the user can be held liable, as long as Craigslist employees aren't doing the posting, they're not legally responsible for content posted by their users?

The issue as I understand it is that the "Erotic Services" section could be construed to be soliciting or facilitating that content.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

adultfriendfinder.com better watch its back... unless of course, that's what you're looking for...

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[digitig]

"allowed" != "endorsed".

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[xonar]

While I agree with you for the most part, I can't think of any time prostitution has been endorsed by the "Church", which by that I take it you mean the Christian church. Christians are supposed to abstain from sex outside of marriage.

And yet if you do your history, the Roman Catholic church did (this was before ML).

Protestants generally consider Catholics not to be Christians.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Entropy98]

Who/what is ML? (Martin Luther?)

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[jalefkowit]

Protestants generally consider Catholics not to be Christians.

[Citation needed]

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[DrLang21]

Really? Have any data on that? Or are you referring to the minority Protestant Church leadership?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[rAiNsT0rm]

Sorry, but those things have existed forever, and will regardless of any laws or lack thereof. You are always going to have trafficking, weirdos, drug abusers, etc. Your entire argument is bullshit.

Legalize (safely) prostitution as is already being done in NV across the country and watch the impact.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[XxtraLarGe]

And yet if you do your history, the Roman Catholic church did (this was before ML).

Catholic priests participating in prostitution is far different from the Roman Catholic Church having a policy approving it. BTW, I wasn't trolling above, I was hoping that someone could supply any support for that argument.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[commodoresloat]

Can you tell me where to find this dirty-talking-schoolgirl-uniform-wearing advertiser? She's no longer on Craigslist for some reason...

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[flyingsquid]

It will move to some other online venue. Maybe slashdot (shudder). I can practically see the ads now...

"Male seeking... anything."

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah, but the cops won't have a place to put their sting ads anymore..

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Paul Carver]

Does society collapse when a hooker gets beaten up by a weirdo? Does society collapse when a bunch of Chinese girls get brought over in a shipping crate to work in a brothel? Does society collapse when a college girl's boyfriend tells her that if she wants to keep the coke coming she needs to turn a few tricks, and it will only be just once or twice?

I'm not sure about your Chinese girls in a shipping crate example, I think that's more of a customs issue than anything else. It shouldn't be permitted to ship human beings in a crate regardless of why you're doing it.

As for the hooker getting beat up by a weirdo, if prostitution is legal she would call the cops just like anybody else who got beaten up by a weirdo during the course of their job.

As for the college girl, if her coke was available for a reasonable price at the local pharmacy then it's just her choice whether she has sex for money or gets a job in the dining hall or the student center. If her boyfriend is pressuring her into prostitution she can certainly say no. If he uses force she could just call the cops. If she knows that her prostitution and coke use are perfectly legal why wouldn't she call the cops about her abusive boyfriend. Its the wars on drugs and prostitution that keep her more afraid of the cops than of her abusive boyfriend.

Of course it wouldn't be a bad idea to spend some tax money on offering free rehab clinics for people who want to quit using drugs (or indeed cigarettes or alcohol). You could pay for a heck of a lot of rehab clinics with the money saved by not running the police departments as paramilitary organizations engaged in a permanent war with heavily armed drug dealers.

I personally have no interest in using drugs. I don't like anything stronger than ibuprofen and I'll often just put up with a headache rather than taking a tylenol. But I don't like the government prohibiting people from voluntarily taking whatever drugs they wish. It's one thing if somebody slips something in your drink, then you should be able to press charges and have them thrown in jail. But if you put the pill in your own mouth or the needle in your own arm it's none of the government's damn business.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Joebert]

here you go

Wikipedia style.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[JWSmythe]

    Actually, there were already quite a few services like Craigslist for escorts before Craigslist got big.

    In many areas, the erotic services section isn't used. I've browsed around it for giggles.

    I've known a few people in the industry (no, not by soliciting their services). Craigslist is generally considered a newbie trashy way to advertise. Good escorts already have better methods.

    And no, I won't post any links. :) Go find them yourselves you pervs.

    By forcing Craigslist to shut down their ads, it's really sent all of those providers off to other means of advertising, which means law enforcement will have to go hunting again. It was a stupid logistics idea. Law enforcement will never stop prostitution, but it looks good to the public to have a decent number of busts. Why kill your easy method of facilitating busts. It's a freakin' list of "we can arrest these people tonight", rather than really hunting them down.

    It'd be like if there was a "Drug Services" section, that crack dealers were listing in. They could brag that they've increased their drug related arrests by 1000%. People will still buy and sell illegal drugs, all they can hope to do is encourage a few people out of the business, and keep the public believing that they're doing all they can do.

    I don't like the idea of going to jail, so I don't deal with any industries that would put me there. I do know people who do though, so I can learn second hand of what happens. If you sit down and listen to some of these people, you'd be amazed at how well thought out some parts are. Then again, other parts are handled stupidly, and those are the people you hear about getting arrested. Some busts are just dumb luck.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[elthicko]

One major problem with this however is kids selling sex over craigslist. I don't know whether they would be doing it with or without craigslist, but it certainly makes it easier for them to advertise and easier for predators to find.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, not all Protestants, but some of the more fundamentalistic ones do consider themselves and only themselves to be Christians, and the rest are all heretics...

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[ClosedSource]

The truth is despite all their "concern" about craigslist, law enforcement isn't really interested in any major effort to investigate and prosecute prostitutes, they just want to hide it.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[xonar]

Really? Have any data on that? Or are you referring to the minority Protestant Church leadership?

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/christian-discussion/47723-why-catholic-isn-t-christian.html

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/cath.htm

I've been in SEVERAL churches of various denominations in the past, and this is in tune with the overwhelming majority of opinion.

Not part of it all anymore, just a casual comment.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Darby]

Who/what is ML? (Martin Luther?)

No, not Martin Luther.

ML is the Muggle League. It's the non-magical Quidditch league. It's not really as popular as the real one since it's just a bunch of people running around with brooms between their legs throwing balls at each other. Kind of a really sad form of LARPing, in fact.

I'm not quite sure why the OP would bring it up though. Martin Luther actually would have made more sense in context ;-)

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Joebert]

Am I the only one who immediately had an idea where to put those two stickers and what to shoot that bouncy ball out of ?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[debrain]

Does society collapse when a hooker gets beaten up by a weirdo? Does society collapse when a bunch of Chinese girls get brought over in a shipping crate to work in a brothel? Does society collapse when a college girl's boyfriend tells her that if she wants to keep the coke coming she needs to turn a few tricks, and it will only be just once or twice? Or, when these things happen, does society just keep on humming the way it always has and nobody needs to give a damn, yet alone raise a finger?

The happening of the hypotheticals offered above are signs that civil society has already collapsed, not that it will. Our best hope to attain fundamental human rights is to offer empathy and compassion for the victims of a system of justice that goes to great lengths to exclude them from access to justice, and counter the prevailing public opinion and mass media that holds victims culpable for their unavoidable misfortunes.

The problem I have is not with prostitution per se, but with half-assed attempts to decriminalize prostitution that contribute to making the situation worse. There's a lot of human misery involved in the sex trade right now. Maybe legalizing prostitution will do away with all of it -- for the sake of argument, let's assume that it will. But until prostitution is really and honestly legalized, for Craigslist to allow posting of prostitution ads now is to support the sex trade as it exists right now, and I can't say I'm really for that.

Flouting the law undermines the integrity of the law - people will question whether the law is an authority. However, enforcing immoral laws also undermine the integrity of the law - people will question whether the law creates justice. Flouting an immoral law in certain circumstances could lead to less harm to the integrity of the law.

Incidentally, prostitution is legal in a number of states where Craigslist operates, including Canada.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[v3lut]

I'll back that up. I grew up in fairly conservative protestant church, and went to school at a fairly conservative protestant bible college. I don't think that you can say "Protestants generally..." but a large number of the more conservative protestants differentiate between "Catholic" and "Christian". In some of those circles, Catholicism is viewed as a cult. Enough so that if you search for the words "catholic" and "cult" you'll get a large number of pages debating the subject.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

As people who (try to) use the personal ads on Craigslist know, that section is already diluted. An influx of escorts into that section would make it a total waste of time. It's almost there already.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[gnick]

I pulled that ad when I learned that they were wiping the Erotic Services ads. I'm still up for it and still have my uniform, but since I can't post a picture for you, it's hard to know whether or not I'm what you're looking for.

Hint: I've got a very deep voice, large hairy hands, an Adam's apple, and I'm pleasantly plump.

Still game, commodore?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[MickyTheIdiot]

This is true. The crazier bible-belt folks (like the kind that create recordings for us plebeians to listen to after the rapture because they ARE SO RIGHTEOUS that they are sure to be taken) often do believe Catholicism to be a cult or worse. There are even stories of certain book stores in the south shelving books written by a Pope under the "occult" section.

The more sane Protestants don't teach that. As a matter of fact, IIRC from Methodist confirmation classes long ago the Pastor taught me that all the branches of Christianity had more in common than they had differences and that they were getting closer in their beliefs all the time.

Like the difference between Republicans and Democrats a certain number of blowhards like to put wedges in the differences and push as hard as they can.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[shutdown -p now]

Protestants generally consider Catholics not to be Christians.

Given that Catholics and Eastern Orthodox still make the majority of self-declared Christians worldwide, and given that they do recognize each other as Christian (even if heretical/schismatic), who cares about what Protestants think?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[geekoid]

"thus enticing more people into the act you want to ban"
While there are some that just do it becasue it's underground, over all making it legal there will be more customers. Look at places where it is legal.
Not that it should be banned.

"...they should be rethinking the law making the ads illegal in the first place. "

true.

"...even the Church at one point allowed it."
well, if it is allowed by a religious organization, then it should be allowed~ what a stupid argument.

Since it is't legal, my point was there is a place to catch people breaking the crime.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[geekoid]

Anything?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[jez9999]

Law enforcement will never stop prostitution, but it looks good to the public to have a decent number of busts. Why kill your easy method of facilitating busts.

I guess they figured the bikini-strewn beaches already facilitated busts well enough.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[shutdown -p now]

By Christian definition of the word "heresy", heretics are still Christians (in that they believe in Christ), just disregarding some of the associated dogmas.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[PCM2]

Yeah, but you missed my point. Prostitution isn't legal and you can't get coke at a pharmacy. So let's lobby for the right things here. Lobby for legalized prostitution, lobby for free cocaine for everybody for all I care -- but don't lobby for Craigslist to be allowed to support the existing black markets for coke and women. Whether you consider vice crimes to be victimless crimes or not, right now there are a lot of really rotten people who profit from those markets, and some of the profits go towards other things that you might like a lot less than you like hookers n' blow.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Duradin]

It might be a gray market if it is advertised on something as public and visible as Craigslist.

You're probably not going to see ads for the Chinese girls shipped in bulk on Craigslist. [citation needed]

Small time or self employed, yes. But not the "oh my god, the humanity of it all!" level stuff you're going on about.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[geekoid]

"Does society collapse when a hooker gets beaten up by a weirdo?"

I little. But if it's legal, the hooker as reasonable recourse, and the person beating them knows when the cops arrive, the person doing their legal trade has nothing to hide.

"Does society collapse when a bunch of Chinese girls get brought over in a shipping crate to work in a brothel?"

they shouldn't put people in crates for any reason.
If' ti's legal, then there will be people here that can fill the gap legally. If there was as demand for Chinese women, then they could come over like everyone else and not need to be shipped in a crate.

"Does society collapse when a college girl's boyfriend tells her that if she wants to keep the coke coming she needs to turn a few tricks, and it will only be just once or twice?"

This has to do with the legalization of drugs and nothing to do with the legalization or prostitution.
If you knew anything about legalized prostitution you would no the monitor for this kind of activity. In fact no legal brothel I am aware of will hire someone while anyone else is in the room, or hire some one who test positive for drugs, or test positive for any form of VD.

BTWm your examples are pretty limited. Most prostitute do it for the money. At lest the none I have talked to.

My mother use to run a brother in NV. So yeah, I actually do know a thing or three on how they work.

In fact, Craigs list give women a way to play their trade more safe then street walking, and they don't need a pimp.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[eyrieowl]

A statement as broad as yours requires more than a couple of anecdotal links to back it up. All your links prove is that *some* Protestants don't believe Catholics are Christians. You imply it's the general rule, which I'll be generous and assume means a simple majority. FYI, I've also attended well over a dozen churches across the spectrum on a regular basis over the years. I would agree that some of the fundamentalist Protestants might believe a statement as strongly worded as that. However, I suspect even in those communities that if you gave them a choice between "Catholics aren't Christian" and "Catholics have lots of wrong beliefs but are Christians if they believe Jesus is Lord" you'd get a lot of people picking the second statement. That said, it would be a mistake to assume that Protestants are "generally" fundamentalist, there are a *lot* of mainstream Protestant denominations across the world which get along just fine with Catholics.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[PCM2]

Sorry, but those things have existed forever, and will regardless of any laws or lack thereof. You are always going to have trafficking, weirdos, drug abusers, etc. Your entire argument is bullshit.

So because they exist, we should have ads for Chinese brothels in glossy magazines? On TV?

Legalize (safely) prostitution as is already being done in NV across the country and watch the impact.

I specifically said I was willing to make the assumption that legalized prostitution was the answer. (I don't really believe in anything so simplistic, but I'm willing to accept it for the sake of argument.) So, having missed my point completely, what's yours?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[geekoid]

Don't be coy.

Of course a law officer goes and poses as a customer fro a message, and when the girl offeres 'something extra' arrest her.

The police can do this without entrapping them.

Just like street walked don't hold up signs saying 'I'll blow you for 100 bucks', yet still get arrested.

"That puts Craigs list in an awkward situation."
No it doesn't. It just becomes a whipping boy some DA can point out on how he is doing well.

No it's not engineered for crime, but how obtuse do you have to be to get my point?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

In the words of George Carlin: "Selling is legal, fucking is legal. Why isn't selling fucking legal?"

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[geekoid]

More accurately, the mole is always released.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

IANAL

isn't that the type of ads craiglist is banning?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[PCM2]

Sure, feel free to speculate. But have you ever been to San Francisco? It's commonplace here. Most of the Chinese-operated massage parlors are semi-tolerated brothels. Law enforcement has ongoing concerns about human trafficking, but it's hard to prove when the proprietors and the sex workers all deny it. (And why wouldn't they?)

Of course nobody is going to post an ad on Craigslist that says, "Truckload of Chinese virgins! Bulk pricing! Serious buyers only!"

The fact that so many "enlightened, sex-positive people" are so willing to wish this kind of stuff into the cornfield is precisely what makes the sex trade so insidious. But if you come to my city -- or any city -- walk its streets and really get to know it, you'll understand that the realities of prostitution for most of the participants are not nearly as pretty as the "independent sex worker entrepreneur" crowd will tell you.

I'm willing to bet that the ability to post ads on Craigslist really does cut down on some of the danger and crime associated with prostitution for some women. That still doesn't make me comfortable with it.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[HTH NE1]

"allowed" != "endorsed".

"Do as I say not as I do"?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[jcr]

Regulate and tax I say.

You know, I constantly hear this about all of the victimless crimes we have on the books today, and it really pisses me off. Why in the hell is the government entitled to tribute for refraining from interfering in something that's none of their business in the first place?

I want the drug war to end. I don't want the end of the drug war to mean that governments get billions in new tax revenues, in fact I want the taxpayers to get back the money we waste on the drug war now.

-jcr

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[jcrousedotcom]

Sarcasim or [citation needed]?

Kids selling sex? Maybe I've just missed that? Besides, I thought all these things were done to protect the children because they're so innocent...

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[jcr]

So because they exist, we should have ads for Chinese brothels in glossy magazines? On TV?

I'd leave that up to the owners of the media in question to decide. As it happens, the first amendment of the constitution concurs.

-jcr

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[aaandre]

"... even the Church at one point allowed it."

Your post makes sense to me. Is the last line supposed to be ironic?

I am asking because I find using an organization that condones child molestation, brainwashing and genocide as one's moral compass alarming. Don't you?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

I know this is flamebait, but most Protestants generally consider Mormons not to be Christians. Protestants like to complain about people who think differently â" hence the root of their name: "protest".

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

Methodist confirmation classes

If you've been through confirmation, you're already about 3000 miles ahead of the vast majority of the protestants who don't know enough about their religion to know that Catholics aren't the only ones with a confirmation process.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[DrLang21]

It's mostly a case of compromising for a solution, much like with alcohol and cigarettes. Yes taxing it heavily is crap. But in the real world you're going to have two choices. We either continue on the self destructive road we are on, or we legalize it and make it very expensive. The "ideal" option to you and I isn't the ideal option to our neighbors down the street.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[dltaylor]

In the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest denomination of Protestants in the USofA, despite some ecumenical rhetoric, there is an active effort to convert Catholics to "Christianity". Missions are sponsored in Latin America specifically for this purpose. Catholics are considered "Papists", not "Christians". A "Christian" has a direct, personal relationship with God, and no priest or hierarchy is needed for "salvation". The whole "saints" thing of asking them to intercede with God on one's behalf, or to provide some form of direct support, is considered a cross between paganism and idolatry.

I endured too many years of those people not to have heard the GPs statement supported in churches from the South to California.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[xonar]

Technically the whole thing is a matter of opinion anyhow, all I can do is post what little information people have bothered to paste up on their small corner of the internet, however. When catholic history is brought up as part of christian history it hits a nerve so to speak.

Abstinence regardless of situation is one of the most heralded laws in the bible, going so far as to prescribe death, and even hellfire to fornicators (of course this a recurring trend throughout the book).

However you look at it, catholic/christian beliefs have forked and gone separate ways several times in our history. I just don't see why it's so hard to just say Catholic when speaking of matters pertaining the general Catholic Belief, and Christian when referencing protestants.

If they're the same why was 16th century Europe so picky about whether the king was protestant or catholic.

I do admit that statement was rather broad, however.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[bigngamer92]

Of course *in theory* the government is the tax payer. Although I do agree that its absurd to be spending money to fight something where the fighting only makes the crime more un-regulated.

While with drugs I believe in taxing it and regulating it, regulation on this would be just weird. Registering Prostitutes? Of course this is the government.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[xonar]

Same thing with the Hacker/Cracker ordeal. Every self-respecting hacker refers to malicious intrusion as Cracking or some other variant. Yet the masses refer to anything that even remotely appears to be breaking the "rules" as hacking.

Who cares about what the techies think?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Chosen Reject]

How do you propose that the government not make money off of it? Are you suggesting that they provide a special exemption to drugs from sales tax? I know Washington state (and I'm sure others) don't have sales taxes on unprepared foods, but I'm having a hard time seeing cocaine lumped into the same category as bread and cheese.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[NeutronCowboy]

Alright, I have to give you props for that one. Funny AND Informative.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[weirdcrashingnoises]

Anything*

*that can fit down the staircase and through the door to my parents basement.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Ihmhi]

Because ultimately, politics is about money. Money will eventually win out over "morals".

Since we're really fucked for money as a country (and will be for the foreseeable future), many are hopeful that such asinine laws will be repealed.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[drinkypoo]

Taking the prostitution off of craigslist harms legitimate prostitutes as well as the pimps who take advantage of women for profit. By making it harder for the legitimate prostitutes to work openly you increase the chances that they will turn to or otherwise be taken advantage of a pimp, or that they will be murdered because they are forced to service the fringes of society. Driving prostitution underground makes things worse, not better. If you want to improve life for prostitutes you should both lobby for legalized prostitution AND for prostitutes to have places to advertise.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Lord Jester]

As long as they tax it like any other business or income then there isn't an issue.

This is already a set precedent as the brothels in Nevada are taxed federally. The girls working there have the federal withholding.

Now just imagine, prostitution and pandering is made legal. There will be a potentially more open plying of the trade. This increases accessibility and potentially utilization, thereby potentially increasing the underlying workforce.

So, if you have legalized prostitution and pandering, some of the existing practitioners will license, thereby submitting to taxation, whereas now there is no taxation. If the workforce increases, it is likely due to demand and thereby drawing in the fence-sitters that had contemplated it, but shied away for legal and/or safety reasons. They too will be taxed.

While it is true that our screwed up tax system often taxes the customers with "luxury tax", this is a service and not a consumable good.

But, all that being said, I do not think it will ever happen and if it does, Uncle Sam and/or the State of transaction will find a way to screw us for screwing.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[jcr]

They'll just use some other website instead.

Or else they'll just spam the personals and all the other ad categories on Craigslist like they used to before CL had the "adult services" category.

-jcr

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

Just to use your example implying that legalization won't solve the problem of shitty jobs, of course it won't.

There are all sorts of legal examples of this and I don't think that anyone is deluding themselves into thinking that legalizing prostitution will make the world like the show on TV about the Bunny Ranch in Nevada.

I think the point is that legalization offers the same protections and benefits that most other people have with "regular jobs". It doesn't prevent people from taking shitty jobs or having to work for douchebags, it does however offer legal recourse and an ability recoup damages.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[lawpoop]

This is about the "Order" part of law and order. They can't get rid of all prostitutions, and in a lot of cases, they may not really want to. However, they just have to make sure that good, decent citizens don't run into prostitutes on the street corner or while looking for apartments to rent.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[ksheff]

They were probably OK using that way before someone decided to use Craigslist as a way to find women to kill. Now it's crossed over to becoming a PR/political issue.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[FleaPlus]

It will move to some other online venue. Maybe slashdot (shudder). I can practically see the ads now...
"Male seeking... anything."

m4g?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[dmomo]

Whack a Mole? This is relevant to my interests! If only there were a Site where I could pay for such an erotic service.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Eil]

By forcing Craigslist to shut down their ads, it's really sent all of those providers off to other means of advertising, which means law enforcement will have to go hunting again. It was a stupid logistics idea. Law enforcement will never stop prostitution, but it looks good to the public to have a decent number of busts. Why kill your easy method of facilitating busts. It's a freakin' list of "we can arrest these people tonight", rather than really hunting them down.

You've hit on a point that's rarely brought up in discussions like this: law enforcement could almost completely wipe out drugs and prostitution in their jurisdictions if they really wanted to. But the unspoken objective is to always keep the "threat" looming, so that the politicians continue to look like they're doing an important job in the eyes of the public, the money keeps flowing in, government employees get to keep their jobs.

Instead of eradicating those behaviors that are prohibited by law, they strive to strike a balance: make enough busts to get your name in the paper every once in awhile. But don't make so many that your "market" for busts dries up completely, or that you start arresting well-connected members of society.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Krneki]

You win!

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

Protestants generally consider Catholics not to be Christians.

Interestingly, this seems to be a fairly popular view among Catholics, as well, who make a distinction between "Catholic" churches and "Christian" churches. Anyway, that's among the Hispanic Catholics I've known, not sure about other Catholics.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[lawpoop]

Why in the hell is the government entitled to tribute for refraining from interfering in something that's none of their business in the first place?

Does the government have a right to tax at all? Do they have a right to tax some things, but not this? Why would this be none of their business? Is anything their business to tax?

If you want things ( maybe one day recreational drugs and prostitution ) to stay safe and enjoyable , we need taxes for police, courts, FDAs, and public infrastructure like roads, electricity, and sewers, etc.

For all their self-righteousness, I never have heard of any libertarians moving to the middle of the Amazon or Somalia. Somalia has been free of the tyranny of government and taxes going on twenty years now.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Bruce Perens]

That's the common carrier rule. I don't think we can make a case that blogs are common carriers. So, they're liable.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Itninja]

BTWm your examples are pretty limited. Most prostitute do it for the money. At lest the none I have talked to. My mother use to run a brother in NV. So yeah, I actually do know a thing or three on how they work.

Between the 'none' you have talked and your Mother running 'a brother' in Nevada, it's no wonder all your comments stay at 1 or less.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[brizzadizza]

Here here! It's tragic that our elected representatives think they're our leaders, or god forbid, our rulers... wait I take it back, it's tragic that we, the public, think our representatives are our leaders. I appreciate NORML and strongly support ending the drug-war across the nation, but I take huge exception to the idea that we need to pay to have less government involvement in our lives. Drug users shouldn't have to pretend that they want to be fine upstanding squares, they should demand that their rights be respected even if they aren't squares.

And a final note, it tears me apart when people talk about government granting rights. The declaration of independence, while not a policy document, clearly sets forth language regarding our INALIENABLE rights. Rights which cannot be separated from the individual. The role of the government with respect to our rights is not to grant them, not even to guarantee them, it is to protect them and a government that is not doing that is in dereliction of duty to its citizens. That got a little tangent to JCR's point but its all in the same vein.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been to San Francisco. I've also talked with people who have lived there for a long time and while there are still issues with street prostitution in both Oakland and San Francisco, it's generally considered to be a lot smaller issue than in the past, largely because of online advertising.

In the Bay Area there are already other sources for the same information that Craigslist provides, so I doubt things will change much there. Other areas are more likely to see an increase in street walkers after this decision, and all the problems that go along with that.

Street prostitution is the form of prostitution that is most visible, the most dangerous, and the most likely to cause problems for those not participating. The move to online advertising has lessened street prostitution, and whatever your views on prostitution in general, that has to be considered a good thing.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[JWSmythe]

    Shhhhh.. You're not suppose to let the secret out. :)

    Actually, there will always be a little bit of any crime, just because you can't police everyone all the time. If I were to let some chick get with me for her left over pharmaceuticals (I'm a man whore, or so I've been told by my friends), then I could be arrested for not only prostitution but possession of illegal drugs, and she could be arrested for dealing.

    Now come on, who can honestly say they haven't slept with a crack whore, and gave her a dime bag for her trouble? :)

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[evanbd]

I'm all in favor of harm reduction and legalization. But if you want to argue that, you should argue based on evidence. Craigslist claims their ads are associated with lower crime rates than more conventional means -- so, if you want to help the people in question, you should let them advertise on CL. Deciding to ban something because we don't like some of the effects, without concern for whether banning it is a step in the right direction or the wrong one on the whole, is exactly what caused this mess in the first place.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Fulminata]

Notice that the antipathy is coming from people that hold political positions like sheriff or attorney general.

They are complaining about this now because of the "craigslist killer" incident bringing the issue to public awareness, and the accompanying cries from certain quarters to "do something about it."

I doubt most of the people that do the actual work of law enforcement are happy about the coming changes.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[mcrbids]

Of course because you're outlawing something you have no business outlawing, you drive it underground and force up prices (thus enticing more people into the act you want to ban) and make it dangerous for all involved. Instead of blasting CL for allowing the ads, they should be rethinking the law making the ads illegal in the first place. It's not like legalizing this would lead to the collapse of society... even the Church at one point allowed it.

Careful, now! Explain to me how this type of reasoning couldn't be used to legalize burglary, or kiddie porn?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[elthicko]

Not sarcasm. See the first paragraph of this.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[jcrousedotcom]

Hmmm. . . I guess I live in a bubble down here in Florida! I have never seen something like the listing the article referenced. +1 Informative.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

In countries where sex as a business is legal (be it brothels or being a prostitute/escort), the erotic services section of craigslist is almost empty.

So my bet is that if prostitution were legalized then the erotic services section of craigslist would dry up because they would be able to advertize in papers, magazines, even sponsored ads for slashdot (at a guess.)

As it is now, the adult services section of craigslist has become an income source for craigslist: the cost of posting an ad there isn't going to charity.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

While I agree with you for the most part, I can't think of any time prostitution has been endorsed by the "Church", which by that I take it you mean the Christian church. Christians are supposed to abstain from sex outside of marriage.

St. Augustine wrote: "Suppress prostitution and capricious lusts will overthrow society."
Sounds like an endorsement to me, no?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[snookums]

I know it. there is a site where people are telling everyone they are committing a crime, and how to get in touch with them, and they want to shut it down?

What I find odd about this is that Cragislist actually serves jurisdictions (such as Australia) where prostitution is legal. Are they making these changes for all locations? Are the reviewers going to be made aware of what is legal, and thus permissible, in each region?

There are also other (perfectly legal) professional services for which it is illegal to advertise in certain areas. In my state, for instance, it is illegal for lawyers to advertise services related to personal injury claims. Is Craigslist going to police this too?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[jbengt]

Considering that even Protestants recite a creed declaring their belief in "one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church", "Papist" or "Roman Catholic" are better labels than "Catholic", anyway.
Still, you have to be purposefully ignorant to not consider Roman Catholicism as a form of Christianity, even if you don't agree with it.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[nametaken]

Of course because you're outlawing something you have no business outlawing, you drive it underground and force up prices (thus enticing more people into the act you want to ban) and make it dangerous for all involved. Instead of blasting CL for allowing the ads, they should be rethinking the law making the ads illegal in the first place.

I dunno man, I didn't find this argument convincing when it was called "LEGALIZE IT!", either.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[nametaken]

Soooo, what you're saying is that it's TOTALLY WORTH IT?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Mitreya]

And no, I won't post any links. :) Go find them yourselves you pervs.

And now I am not going to moderate here... Tell me - how are people who use personal services "pervs"? Prostitution is (mostly) illegal in US, but how does that make someone who's paying for sex with a consenting adult a pervert??

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[cmarkn]

I think you misunderstand what winning means to authorities. It doesn't mean they halt the behavior they are opposed to; it means they can draw a steady salary by continuously fighting it. If they actually did beat down all the moles, what would they do for a living? Moreover, their failure to end the behavior gives them the excuse they need to keep expanding their power, making their lives that much more intrusive into yours, which is infinitely better than putting the bad guys out of business and getting laid off.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[despisethesun]

I just don't see why it's so hard to just say Catholic when speaking of matters pertaining the general Catholic Belief, and Christian when referencing protestants.

Because, with the exception of some of the more idiotic Protestant groups, Catholics are considered Christians. The term basically means people who follow Christ. The group you were raised with might disagree, but that doesn't make them right. Instead of saying "Christian" to only mean Protestants, why wouldn't anyone just say "Protestant"? Christian is the catch-all for all of the followers of Christ, including Catholics and members of the Eastern Orthodox church. Christianity didn't begin with the Reformation, regardless of how uncomfortable that thought makes you.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[BountyX]

backpages.com is that other site.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[JWSmythe]

    Honestly, it doesn't. But 99% of the people who want the links just want to see the pictures. If you're honestly supporting what has been a legitimate industry for centuries, that we recently decided is a bad thing, then more power to you.

    I have friends that are in the industry, and I know that they're regular people. Some people look at them as lesser people, but really they aren't. I guess I have a different view, since I'm not a customer. I get to know the real person, not the showwoman side.

    I guess I should have put a smiley after that last sentence.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

"not a consumable good"

This had me rolling, thanks. ;)

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[mdwh2]

A long list of things that are not prostitution, but other things - I could make the same list of abuses for cases that don't involve money, but that doesn't mean all sex should be criminalised.

The problem I have is not with prostitution per se

Right, so we are in agreement - there is no need to suggest that anyone is in favour of rape, slavery or other violence.

but with half-assed attempts to decriminalize prostitution that contribute to making the situation worse.

Sure, I agree we shouldn't have half-assed attempts. Let's legalise it properly.

But until prostitution is really and honestly legalized, for Craigslist to allow posting of prostitution ads now is to support the sex trade as it exists right now, and I can't say I'm really for that.

Unless you can cite cases where Craigslist has directly led to such abuse, this is unfounded and illogical. You might as well say "As long as Craigslist allows personal ads, it's supporting sex as it exists right now - including all the rape, abuse and broken relationships, and I can't say I'm really for that". It's a nonsense argument. Even if a rapist was found to be using a personal ads site, we clearly wouldn't say that all personal ads are bad, or that the site supported rape, unless you had evidence that they knew and supported the rapist. To suggest otherwise is a libellous allegation.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[adona1]

Have a look at this research paper" for a review of how legalising prostitution in Melbourne, Australia has gone. Based on your post, you'd probably find it interesting.

On the whole, legalising the industry has made things better, but, y'know...it's still a fairly crappy industry to work in.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[mdwh2]

So because they exist, we should have ads for Chinese brothels in glossy magazines? On TV?

If it's non-abusive between consenting adults, sure (well, where the ads are allowed is another debate - I'm not saying they have to be shown on TV primetime before the watershed, just that it shouldn't be criminalised). If it's abuse, then no, just like any other known rapist who was advertising on a site.

I don't really believe in anything so simplistic

There is nothing simplistic about not locking people up for consensual acts - that state of affairs should be the default. What is simplistic is the idea that we can blame society's ills on simple things like drugs or prostitution, and that having laws against them will magically make everything better.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[mdwh2]

And what makes you think that they aren't lobbying for those things too? I would have thought it pretty obvious that people with those views are also in favour of legalised prostitution. What's more, this whole thread was started with someone having a debate on the legality on prostitution, not whether craigslist should have these ads.

Let's take another look at plague3106's post that you first replied to:

Instead of blasting CL for allowing the ads, they should be rethinking the law making the ads illegal in the first place. It's not like legalizing this would lead to the collapse of society

Now that, to me, sounds like someone suggesting we should legalise prostitution, rather than calling for craigslist to allow illegal services. So nevermind "You missed my point", you missed the entire argument.

Anyhow, the argument of "it shouldn't be allowed because it's illegal" is a weak and circular one. Yes, of course it would be better if the law was changed, but until that happens, that doesn't mean that people should be obedient to an unjust law.

Also, the Craigslist section is not just prostitution, but covers legal erotic services too (they're replacing it with a new category that will allow them to keep the legal services).

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

how would that be a bad thing. we just add an adult section to the left margin, and mod down the stupid ones. eugenics through geek breeding... this may be the only time I've ever supported an idea like eugenics.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[MrCrassic]

Baptists also do not fully consider Catholics as "Christians," mostly for doctrinal reasons.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in Nevada. It seems all you other states got jealous of our gambling, and now you have slot machines, too. THANKS, there goes that state revenue! (48 of 50 states have some form of legalized gaming now).

And NOW you want to take away our hookers, too?????

Nevada has legalized brothels, in case anyone didn't know that...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Nevada

And, hey, I just learned something. Offering sex for money isn't illegal in RI, either!

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

by "they" you don't mean law enforcement right? i don't think law enforcement particularly care about hiding prostitution. i would argue that politicians care.

p.s. oddly enough, the word i get in captcha is "pouding."

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

Quantify, please. What is "a lot"? (see http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/04/worstall_s3x_trafficking/ for an argument against "a lot" being very much.)

Prostitution is legal in the UK. That doesn't prevent criminals trafficking women from Eastern Europe into the UK to work in brothels, but as Paul pointed out, that, along with people being assaulted during their work, are covered by existing laws - and would be easier to apply if prostitution was legal.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Eli Gottlieb]

ML is the Muggle League. It's the non-magical Quidditch league. It's not really as popular as the real one since it's just a bunch of people running around with brooms between their legs throwing balls at each other. Kind of a really sad form of LARPing, in fact.

Yeah, you nerds really are sad. HUMANS VS ZOMBIES 4 LIFE!

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

Touche, I'm stoned

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[minvaren]

You mean law enforcement is a growth industry?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Eli Gottlieb]

Getting oneself addicted to coke is "unavoidable misfortune"?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[RazorSharp]

I don't like that argument because it implies that authorities should realize the futility of their work and give up. Craig's List created a market for prostitution where there wasn't previously one and amending this issue was necessary. Even if other facets of the internet such as MySpace or E-bay pick up where CL left off, I can't imagine it would be a seamless business transition. Let's face it, this will cut down on prostitution. Perhaps even more important, this will reduce the likelihood of one becoming a victim of a crime related to such advertised services.

Police - both local officials and federal agencies - are in a continuous whack-a-mole game and they always will be. But unlike whack-a-mole it doesn't get more difficult with each level, rather its difficulty is variable to the success of the previous level. Basically, authorities can get all existential and become complacent like you suggest, but the whack-a-mole difficulty in this instance would exponentially increase until returning to a manageable game of whack-a-mole becomes an impossibility.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Lord Jester]

I tried my best to keep it strait. :P

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[perryizgr8]

While I agree with you for the most part, I can't think of any time prostitution has been endorsed by the "Church", which by that I take it you mean the Christian church. Christians are supposed to abstain from sex outside of marriage.

And yet if you do your history, the Roman Catholic church did (this was before ML).

what does ml mean?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[RazorSharp]

This type of idealism sounds good but is completely impractical for the most pragmatic of reasons. First: the drug analogy is stupid. You should have said pot because anyone who would argue for the legalization of cocaine is either ignorant or stupid. I'm going to explain because I'm assuming you're ignorant. If cocaine were ever cheap enough so that its users no longer needed to commit crimes to get their fix, then they would do so much of it they would physically and mentally deteriorate to the point of being a burden on society. Paternalistic drug laws are necessary (but, yeah, weed should be legal).

Now prostitution is a different issue but we'll stick with the analogy. Cocaine addiction is something developed through cocaine use. Once one becomes addicted they will always be addicted even if they stop usage. We cannot allow cocaine to be legal because if this large-scale public addiction were not kept in check then society would be worse for wear. Compare this to sexual desire, an addiction all are born with and which motivates, torments, and tempts us all at some point. Like cocaine this addiction may be the root of many evil acts (rape, deceit, malice toward sexual competitors) but unlike cocaine it also motivates many to do fundamental good (achieve something which will impress another, concern for personal hygiene/desirability, a general altruism derived from relationships). Keep in mind that many engage in social relations only because of their libido. What I'm saying is that there is virtue in sexual monogamy and a grave immorality about prostitution. You see anti-prostitution laws as unnecessary regulation but I see them as vital to maintaining society in its current form and preventing the rest of America from degrading into Nevada, where neither education nor morality are respected.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

ML was behind a never yet resolved schism. You see, Haskell is more dogmatically pure-functional but requires mysterious intermediaries, while ML holds you have a personal relationship with Truth as represented in mutable objects.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[eyrieowl]

You seem to have drunk the kool-aid about Catholics not being Christian. I *could* take the opposite position, that most right-wing "Christians" in the USA aren't Christians because they often support war and capitol punishment. Or I could ask why people don't say Christian when speaking about Catholics, and [insert sect name] when speaking about non-Catholics. But I think it's a silly thing to start playing the "you're not a Christian" game. I think it's more correct to take the position that if someone self-identifies as Christian that they are. Labels can be applied to help categorize their theology (baptist, catholic, orthodox), but those labels are ALL labels for Christian theologies. So, it's not "Catholic" vs "Christian", it's "Catholic Christian", "Baptist Christian", "Orthodox Christian", etc. Those various sects will inherently disagree about who has a better handle on "The Truth", but saying any one of them isn't Christian is irrational, inflammatory, and inaccurate. FWIW, I'm not nor have I ever been Catholic, but I do think this whole "Catholics aren't Christians" thing is complete sectarian, petty rubbish.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[IntlHarvester]

I just don't see why it's so hard to just say Catholic when speaking of matters pertaining the general Catholic Belief, and Christian when referencing protestants.

Why would anyone do that when Roman Catholics outnumber Protestants? It's not 1920 anymore.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[jcr]

anyone who would argue for the legalization of cocaine is either ignorant or stupid.

Let me stop you right there, and point out your own ignorance and stupidity. Cocaine was an over-the-counter drug once, and we didn't have anyone getting shot over it. An addict needs treatment, not prosecution.

Try googling for "portugal drug decriminalization", read and learn.

-jcr

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[sesshomaru]

Compare this to sexual desire, an addiction all are born with and which motivates, torments, and tempts us all at some point.

One of the sickest things I've read these many years on Slashdot, and that's saying something.

Gentlemen, I give you the neurosis caused by careful training into the Puritan mindset that afflicts many Americans.

Quarantine your cultures against it, I say!

That says it all, "Sexual Desire == Addiction."

Oh, by the way, if you are a woman, stay the Hell away from this guy! He is "motivated, tormented and tempted" by his "sexual desire addiction."

He probably keeps duct tape in his van as well...

I would pity him, but I never pitied Claude Frollo or Lord Angelo, so why start now...

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[jcr]

I give you the neurosis caused by careful training into the Puritan mindset that afflicts many Americans.

Yes, puritanism is a tragic thing. Alcohol prohibition had its roots in puritanism, and we still have the war on drugs today because of them.

-jcr

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, most Catholics I have talked to do not consider themselves Christians. There seems to be a rather pronounced difference between American Catholics and Catholics from Latin American countries in this way.

For example, many spanish speaking persons would refer to themselves as "catolicos", and then would go on to talk about their brother or cousin who is "cristiano". If you were to ask them if they were Christian, the answer would often be "no, soy catolico."

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

Often the thing that is [currently] illegal is legislated against because it has societal consequences. For example excessive drug use can cause people to drive poorly, to lose jobs, breaks up families, etc.

In any society I want to be part of there are compassionate safety nets to help people. Potentially not just the drug addict but also their neglected spouse or kids.

Taxing the activities that cause these sorts of problems provides a funding source for the safety net. It provides treatment centers and medical clinics and counseling and all that 'stuff' that helps society deal with folks who are making a mess of their lives.

The reason this is cost effective is that a tremendous number of the folks who smoke a little bit, occasionally buy mushrooms for a camping trip, or enjoy wine with their dinner, don't proceed to ruin their lives.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[ami.one]

... I've browsed around it for giggles.

Now, exactly whom are your trying to fool ?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Ambiguous Puzuma]

My post was entirely serious; I wasn't talking about the cynical view of dating as an exchange of money for sex, or anything like that. "Roses required", "generous", and "donation" in this context appear to be code for "payment required". Note the #1 definition on urbandictionary for roses:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=roses

There have been a number of what appear to be prostitution offers (and "sugar daddy" requests) posted in the personals sections of Craigslist, frequently using those phrases. Random examples that haven't been flagged yet (most of the obvious ones do get flagged quickly):
http://albany.craigslist.org/cas/1140993582.html
http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/w4m/1168295593.html
And one of the more explicit ads, actually containing the phrase "escort service" (along with potentially NSFW images):
http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/cas/1169942282.html

Better yet, since the ads remain indexed by Google even after they're flagged:
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Acraigslist.org+%22roses+required%22+-ers+-adg
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Acraigslist.org+%2Bdonation+%2Bw4m+-ers+-adg

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

Abstinence regardless of situation is a death sentence for the human race. Or did you mean Abstinence outside of marriage? Anyway, I'm not sure what that has to do with the rest of this discussion

You'll need to invent a word to cover all people who believe un and worship Jesus Christ. Jesuits is already taken.... So, sorry, Christian is really the best word available to refer to whole group including Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, and everyone else. It helps that most people already use it in that manner.

Why do you find it so hard to say Protestant when referencing protestants, Catholic when referencing Catholics, and Christian when referencing Christians in general?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

Coke available at the pharmacy at a reasonable price? I don't think that "regulate and tax" should guarantee a reasonable price. If anything, coke should be taxed at a higher rate to pay for Child Health Insurance, just like cigarettes.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

Martin Luther, I presume.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

In this instance the word catholic means universal

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't there some sort of legal exclusion for user-generated content? I thought, while the user can be held liable, as long as Craigslist employees aren't doing the posting, they're not legally responsible for content posted by their users? Just like Slashdot wouldn't be liable if I post DeCSS or something along those lines.

There is no such absolute rule. The way these things actually work is, in fact, more or less common sense: (a) if some random guy comes along and posts something that's clearly illegal while you're not looking, well, it's not your fault; (b) however, if you encourage random guys to come along and post stuff that's clearly illegal, and even worse, do so because you expect to benefit from it, then you'll be held complicit.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[bkpark]

However, they just have to make sure that good, decent citizens don't run into prostitutes on the street corner or while looking for apartments to rent.

Except, you know, if that's what they wanted, this is the very exact opposite of what they should've done.

The reason erotic services category existed at all is the same reason rants and raves section exists: so that all the filth has a single gathering place. Currently, only people actually seeking erotic services (i.e. in the erotic services category) see these ads, but when this disappears without a comparable replacement (for the new "adult services" section, I wonder who does the screening—Craigslist doesn't have any manpower for such task), these ads, especially the ones that are in legally gray area, will pop up all over the place, like in the "gigs" section or "community" section.

Without an actual erotic services section, it becomes even more likely for someone looking for apartment to rent or looking for temporary jobs or looking for some area events to come across a hooker advertisement.

But then, nobody said that police departments are known for intelligence or consideration of unintended consequences.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[tazanator]

Ummm.. the original coke a cola recipe had cocaine in it before the drug was relegated.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[WillAdams]

The original Coca Cola recipe had a _tiny_ amount of cocaine, which was the _smallest_ possible amount which was left in it due to limitations of processing coca leaves at that time --- something like one part in 50 million.

William

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[1u3hr]

Why in the hell is the government entitled to tribute for refraining from interfering in something that's none of their business in the first place?

You could say the same about almost any tax. Tax is not direct payment for services, if it were the private sector would be doing it. Taxes are a way to collect money used to fund things for "the common good". Education, police, fire department, etc; things that you really don't want to be charged to the users at cost. (I would say "health care", as in every other country the government does that too, but Americans prefer to gamble on not getting sick or unemployed).

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[plague3106]

Funny.. I've seen more Protestants that I would call cult-like than Catholics. Of course I grew up as a roman catholic, not that i belive any of that garbage anymore.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[plague3106]

All of your questions above are problems that arise because prostitution is illegal. They would go away if it were legalized.

The problem with your thoughts on the ads are that you assume everyone posting on CL is in one of your bad situations specified above. That's not true. Women do choose to engage in prostition of their own free will, just like many choose to go into adult movies or become dancers.

If you think CL removing the ads will have any impact on the current situtation one way or another, you're delusional. In fact, some girls have said CL ads have allowed them to be safer than before, so if there is going to be an effect, its going to put more in danger.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[GameboyRMH]

If I were to let some chick get with me for her left over pharmaceuticals (I'm a man whore, or so I've been told by my friends)

I'd tell you to hand over your geek card, but I'm sure it violently burst into flames already.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[FreakyGreenLeaky]

Then this should do just fine.

Don't get caught by your mom, though.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[sremick]

Being paid to have sex IS legal... as long as you videotape it and sell the videos.

Sort THAT one out.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

there is a site where people are telling everyone they are committing a crime, and how to get in touch with them, and they want to shut it down?

Yeah, seems like the authorities have a problem with seeding... *cough*

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[JWSmythe]

    Ya, I get a lot of that down here. Something about the whole fire and brimstone atmosphere.

   

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[MatchstickMaker]

A cocaine user is a user whether it is legal or not. The same goes for nonusers. I don't know anyone, that currently does not use, that would go out and buy a rock just because it has been decriminalized.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[BlackSnake112]

wait.... keeping duct tape, electrical tape, and wire ties in your car is a bad thing?!

I'll be back. I have to empty my car of those and the screw drivers.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Nevyn]

Does society collapse when a hooker gets beaten up by a weirdo?

prostitution != GBH/ABH

Does society collapse when a bunch of Chinese girls get brought over in a shipping crate to work in a brothel?

prostitution != human trafficking

Does society collapse when a college girl's boyfriend tells her that if she wants to keep the coke coming she needs to turn a few tricks, and it will only be just once or twice?

Does society collapse when a college girl's boyfriend tells her that if she wants to keep the coke coming she needs to go work at Wall Mart for 60 hours a week?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm willing to bet that the ability to post ads on Craigslist really does cut down on some of the danger and crime associated with prostitution for some women. That still doesn't make me comfortable with it.

PCM, a question for you...

I've read the rest of this thread, and both of you have good points. I'm in favor of legalizing/licensing or at least decriminalizing this stuff. I think it's a waste of tax dollars to try to fight it, since they haven't managed to stop, or even really reduce it in any meaningful way.

So here's my question. You admit that the online ads reduce, but do not eliminate the social burden of these activities. Prostitution and exploitation still occurs, but now at least people don't have to be as exposed to it from street walkers, etc. How then, can you condone the government limiting the free speech (advertising) of a private entity such as craigslist and its posters?

Presumably, since you are (I think) in favor of the decriminalization of those activities - to put them on the scale of say, selling and consuming alcohol ($100 billion with a b dollar business a year in the USA, fyi) - what is the intermediate route you would propose?

I'm a fan of freedom. No helmet laws, few gun laws impacting non violent felons, etc. I just don't see how you can reconile the make it legal, but ban talking about it until ABC...XYZ are all legal first.

Serious question. Here's my take on the unrelated Cyber Security thing for reference.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

While with drugs I believe in taxing it and regulating it, regulation on this would be just weird. Registering Prostitutes? Of course this is the government.

Never been to Nevada?

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

Notice that the antipathy is coming from people that hold political positions like sheriff or attorney general.

They are complaining about this now because of the "craigslist killer" incident bringing the issue to public awareness, and the accompanying cries from certain quarters to "do something about it."

You say that like they aren't all law abiding and genuinely good, kind, helpful people who had better financial and power option in life but heroically sacrificed their own personal comfort to work for the greater good by helping others int he community through engagement in unpaid police service.

What? They're paid? How much? How much!? But they don't even need a four year college degree! Power tripping corrupt bastards.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

victimless crimes

Prostitution victimless? Maybe sometimes, but even in a country that has legalized prostitution (the Netherlands) we keep finding victims. Even the proponents of legalization are starting tot admit it hasn't helped much.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[jeff4747]

Driving prostitution underground doesn't help solve any of the problems. In fact, the illegal nature of prostitution makes it very difficult for "Johns" or other prostitutes to report these activities.

If you want to reduce these problems, sunlight is the only cure.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

Just FYI, I remember hearing this from someone years ago: The whole reason craigslist created the erotic services section years ago was to help drive the prostitution and other 'pay for' services out of the *4*'s and casuals sections so THOSE people could go on looking for potential dates/hookups.

And honestly since all this bruhaha started up last year the number of prostitutes flagrantly advertising in the w4m and casuals sections has increased significantly (now in addition to every other post being spam, every 4th post is from a hooker!)

But YMMV and all.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Tingler]

I have always thought that humorous. If you want to legally have sex with a prostitute, follow these steps:

1. Tell her you are making a 'movie.'
2. Have her sign a release.
3. Film the act.
4. Pay her.
5. Throw away the movie.
6. (don't) profit

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[ultranova]

Why in the hell is the government entitled to tribute for refraining from interfering in something that's none of their business in the first place?

It isn't, of course. It does, however, have the power of taxation, so why should prostitution be exempt? Other services aren't.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[ultranova]

Sure, feel free to speculate. But have you ever been to San Francisco? It's commonplace here. Most of the Chinese-operated massage parlors are semi-tolerated brothels. Law enforcement has ongoing concerns about human trafficking, but it's hard to prove when the proprietors and the sex workers all deny it. (And why wouldn't they?)

So, the presumed victims deny being victims but you just know they are?

The fact that so many "enlightened, sex-positive people" are so willing to wish this kind of stuff into the cornfield is precisely what makes the sex trade so insidious. But if you come to my city -- or any city -- walk its streets and really get to know it, you'll understand that the realities of prostitution for most of the participants are not nearly as pretty as the "independent sex worker entrepreneur" crowd will tell you.

Prostitution is legal where I live. To the best of my ability to tell, the people doing it treat it just as another job. It's not "insidious", it's not "pretty"; it's just a job. The same seems to be true of any other country with legal prostitution.

I'm willing to bet that the ability to post ads on Craigslist really does cut down on some of the danger and crime associated with prostitution for some women. That still doesn't make me comfortable with it.

No one's asking you to be comfortable with other people's business, just to get your nose out of it.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi, my name is, well. I have a name and I didn't log in because I don't have an account and I was too lazy to create one before making this post, but I have much to say about the rantings and ravings of every one on this page that I have read so far. I've heard a few intelligent arguments like the one by Paul Carver above. I totally agree with you Paul.

I also want to say that not every persons life is ideal and well, not everyone handles things in the way that people in these comments are assuming. You would be surprised how many Classy and Great ladies are making a living, paying their bills and pumping their money back into our economy. Don't assume that the majority of the people posting are doing it to support a coke habit or being abused or forced to do it by anyone other than the screwed up economy we are now living in and have been for several years now. It used to be that if you had the desire and motivation you could go out and find a job with little effort. These days it seems no matter how much effort you put in, you can't find a job. Not every woman has someone taking care of her or a family that is rich that can support them. Grow up and face reality, this stuff is not going away and I would imagine that without Craigslist these issues that everyone has been blaming Craigslist for would be far greater. These ladies are not just supporting themselves in many cases. They are supporting at least one child of theirs whether they are a child or a teenager or whatever, it's their child. Maybe more. So imagine the people that would be affected if this one person couldn't make a living. Things are bad enough in this country. Trust me, there are sacrifices made that people don't talk about that anyone making a living like this has to make. One of those is constant judgment by all those that find out and so you give up finding friends and does that really sound like a life someone would choose if they had a choice, but if there is no place for them in the workforce (and trust me, it's not getting easier to find a job when you haven't had one. It's much harder.) I've had jobs in the "corporate world" supporting Executives and such and when all you get offered are temp jobs and you go in and out and in and out of temp jobs. Let's just say that everyone on here has a very idealistic viewpoint of the way that things should be but the real world isn't like that. People have to live, pay their bills and provide for others. Why would not having craigslist around help that problem? It's not like all of a sudden there are going to be jobs for all the ladies who are making a living like that.

Another thing, it is possible to be someone who does this and respects themselves and others. I know that everyone has a very stigmatized and negative veiw point of the common, "prostitute, hooker, escort, masseuse, etc. thinking that they constantly sacrifice their limits for a little "extra money" but that's just not the case with everyone. Everyone is different just like everyone in life is different. And why are they concentrating on only removing the erotic services section? I thought I heard of a few other situations at least that had to do with people placing bogus ads and or responding to ads and harming the person that they met with off Craigslist that had nothing to do with Erotic Services. They aren't concentrating on those or making people that make money off of posting for classifieds where they make a living say as a gardner pay for posting their ads. It just seems to me that these ladies are an easy target and the real issues aren't being addressed.

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[jcr]

Does the government have a right to tax at all?

People have rights, governments have powers. So the answer to your question is no.

-jcr

Re:Not like it's going to make a difference

[lawpoop]

Okay. Does the government have a legitimate power to tax? If yes, please describe :)

Question:

[Anonymous Coward]

No doubt Craigslist makes paid...um...encounters safer and more inexpensive while offering a wide variety of choice. Who here has paid for such encounters and how did that work out for you?

Re:Question:

[bluefoxlucid]

I've not paid, but I've been harassed by gay men offering their 'service' repeatedly, and eventually had their ISP cancel their accounts without refund for abuse.

Re:Question:

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I, for one. I use escorts/hookers regularly. The experienced customers and quality hookers use sites other than CL, as the quality of information is higher, and there are review sections that let you know what you're getting into see TER or TNA

It has worked out for me. I get what I want.

Okay, I suppose....

[Itninja]

...but when will they come to the light and stop using fricking Times New Roman??? Can a brother get some Veranda or Helvetica up in here? See reference material here.

Re:Okay, I suppose....

[Anonymous Coward]

See, this is what CSS does to people.

Change the font settings in your browser, dumdum.

Re:Okay, I suppose....

[Itninja]

Those settings are GLOBAL are they not? I don't want to see the same font on every page. TNR is fine in moderation.

Re:Okay, I suppose....

[Anonymous Coward]

or better yet, make it Comic Sans, please. I beg you.

Re:Okay, I suppose....

[jalefkowit]

Stylish is an extension that lets you set up style rules on a per-site basis. Problem solved.

Re:Okay, I suppose....

[dietdew7]

The only time I care about the font is while viewing ASCII-porn.

Re:Okay, I suppose....

[geekoid]

TNR is fine, and Kurtz is a loud mouthed hack.

Re:Okay, I suppose....

[drinkypoo]

Quite amusing, but here's a real question: When are they going to implement fucking proximity searches? There's a trillion libraries that can do this for them and it would save me from having to use allegedly prohibited third-party sites to search large portions of craigslist at once. Also, their search is very stupid.

Re:Okay, I suppose....

[HTH NE1]

Thank you for that. Now I can assign rules for specific sites without encoding large obscure tag sequences for sites that don't put their underscore-delimited FQDN in the ID tag of BODY. (Actually only my workplace did that so that I could style the gnats results with overflow properties that wouldn't affect any other sites.)

Craiglist is a useful site overall

[williecdog]

I'm not sure about saying that print ads are more dangerous than craigslist, but I'd guess they'd be about the same danger as far as I'm concerned. It is a useful site, I'm using it now to see if I can find someone to loan me some WiFi access while I stay with my autistic son in Pittsburgh.

They will find a place

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are trying to sell something, you'll advertise where you think there is an audience.

The upshot of this is that the romance/dating and other areas will be filled with erotic-services spam.

Rooms-for-rent is already filled with "$1/month for qualified female applicants." If that's not prostitution I don't know what is. Sigh.

AWESOME

[Fantom42]

I for one look forward to the drastic improvements this change will effect.
</sarcasm>

Oh man!

[Anonymous Coward]

Where else can I seek out an erotic lesbian gorilla!?

Re:Oh man!

[Anonymous Coward]

Where else can I seek out an erotic lesbian gorilla!?

http://www.state.gov/secretary/

Re:Oh man!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey - she's not erotic!!!

Re:Oh man!

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously, you are not a gorilla.

Mounting Legal Pressure?

[nurb432]

Last i heard you had the right to free speech in this country.

If they want to print sex ads to adults, so be it. Don't like sex ads, well don't read those sections.

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[Gizzmonic]

Dude, it's not a First Amendment issue.

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[stevenvi]

Last i heard you had the right to free speech in this country.

What country are you referring to? Consider if a hitman were advertising his services. What he does is also illegal (though admittedly can cause more damage depending on how you look at it). Is that allowed where you come from?

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[gnick]

This is all about the First Amendment! Just last month I was arrested for offering to sell cocaine to an undercover cop - I never even sold him the drugs! And when I offered him pictures of naked underage boys and girls if he'd let me go - Things only got worse!

Blatant violation of my right to free speech. If this keeps up, I'll shoot the president.

[Special note to the Secret Service - This was an attempt at sarcasm/humor. Please don't kill me.]

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[Anonymous Coward]

We won't be killing you, but if you succumb to waterboarding, then, as Sith Cheney says, "Whatevs! Talk to the hand!"

Sincerely,

Your friendly local Secret Service

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[The End Of Days]

I see how you think you're making a point, but honestly, why should saying these things be illegal? Because it conflicts with some authority's opinions on certain matters? Too freakin bad, preventing some authority's opinion on influencing the thoughts and speech of the populace at large is the entire point of the first amendment.

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[sexconker]

You sure do (or are supposed to).

Free speech means being able to stand on the White House lawn and announce that you're about to rape the president with a C4 dildo.

Free speech stops anyone from forcing you to stop your announcements, and prevents them from arresting/convicting you based on what you said (with a lack of you actually having DONE anything).

Free speech doesn't prevent you from being stopped and checked for weapons.

If your speech itself causes demonstrable harm (libel, slander), then you can be forced to cough up for the damages. Free speech means you can walk out of the court house spewing the same libel and slander that you just got sued over.

As you can see - we do NOT have free speech in this country, despite the fact that we are supposed to.

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[nurb432]

The hell its not.

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[gnick]

It's no so much about difference of opinion. The key word here is 'solicitation'. Examples of things that you can (I believe) be arrested for saying:
* "You wanna buy some weed?"
* "If you'll give me $20, I'll give you head."
* "If you can come up with a porno starring a 6 year old, I'll pay you $250."
* "If you'll shoot my wife, I'll give you $500."
And, even though I disagree with the laws barring the first couple of cases, solicitation of a crime is a crime. And, in the latter two examples, I think that it's for a good reason, as grave harm could come about just because of something that somebody said. You're free to express opinions - Even unpopular ones, but not to solicit criminal activity.

Perhaps I missed the point.

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[Archangel Michael]

If this keeps up, I'll shoot the president.

Racist Teabagger.

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[spun]

Okay, we get it, YOU think this is a First Amendment issue. That doesn't mean it is. Others have provided airtight reasoning as to why you are wrong. Now maybe you could provide some reasoning to back up your assertions. Is it legal to advocate shooting the president? Is it legal for me and a bunch of friends to plan how to kill you? Is it legal to shout 'Fire!' in a crowded, non-burning theater?

You can not conspire to commit crimes. Prostitution is currently a crime. Therefore, you can not legally talk about providing sexual services. Therefore, you are wrong and this is not a free speech issue, no matter how much you would like to reduce it to something that simple.

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[Jherek Carnelian]

grave harm could come about just because of something that somebody said

No, grave harm can not come about just because of something that somebody said.
Grave harm pretty much requires an actual actor to take action. That actor is the one responsible for the harm that results. Anything less is just someone trying to shirk the responsibility for their actions.

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[Gizzmonic]

That actor is the one responsible for the harm that results. Anything less is just someone trying to shirk the responsibility for their actions.

This is sophistry at its worst. Are you seriously saying you think it should be legal for hitmen to advertise their wares? That their offers to kill someone for money are anything like what we treasure as free speech? Surely you're high on drugs!

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realize they HAVE to, by law, investigate all death threats to the president and other charges they protect? just an FYI when they come a knocking next week, they have NO sense of humor.

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[Jherek Carnelian]

If you really believe in free speech, then you must support the most degenerate speech as much as you do discussions about motherhood and apple pie. Anything less is just believing in sorta-kinda free speech.

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[HTH NE1]

* "You wanna buy some weed?"

Got any dandelions?

* "If you'll give me $20, I'll give you head."

Already got the head. I just need to decide between a body or a frameset.

* "If you can come up with a porno starring a 6 year old, I'll pay you $250."

I'll see if Jennifer Lien will reprise her role as Kes.

* "If you'll shoot my wife, I'll give you $500."

Will that be with a regular or a telephoto lens?

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[bluefoxlucid]

Free speech means being able to stand on the White House lawn and announce that you're about to rape the president with a C4 dildo.

You are free to make such a statement; however, you can be arrested for assault (verbal) and detained pending investigation. Threatening physical harm of the president will get you tackled, shackled, and charged with SOMETHING; stupidity is punishable at least to a small degree.

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[Gizzmonic]

Your false dichotomy stupifies me.

It is possible, in fact quite easy, to believe in free speech without believing that hitmen/child pornographers be able to advertise their wares. They aren't even producing "degenerate speech." It's solicitation, which has nothing to do with the "marketplace of ideas" which is at the core of the First Amendment.

But, you might say, it's still speech. But obviously ,it's not the type of speech that the Framers intended to protect. There are variable definitions of speech, you know. What you tell your friends on the 7 train is not the same as the Gettysburg Address, either. Pretending you don't understand the difference is silly.

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[bluefoxlucid]

Look, even my very close friends wouldn't give me head for $20. Some would give me free head on a good day, but would need more like $50 or $100 to persuade them on a bad day; the ones that don't really ever want to would need a couple hundred to get them on their knees. A professional hooker is going to land at a market rate of whatever people will pay, and it's not going to be $20.

Now granted, I might happen to have a nice girl that occasionally goes down on me, and might pass her $20 for gas money to help her out and she might give me oral for being nice when she really wasn't going to put out any that day; but that's not the same as buying a blow job for $20.

Do you live in Jersey or something?

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[sexconker]

Oh, it'll get you all sorts of things, I'm aware of that. It should not, however.

"Verbal assault" is bullshit, and isn't a real crime.

And stupidity is both legal AND encouraged.

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[HTH NE1]

Context matters.

Genuine offers for criminal acts are prosecutable. Disingenuous ones are not. It helps when the latter is readily apparent (such as by occurring in a work of fiction by a fictional character).

It is of course well known that careless talk costs lives, but the full scale of the problem is not always appreciated. See the war between and eventual fate of the G'Gugvuntts and the Vl'Hurgs.

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[Jherek Carnelian]

It is possible, in fact quite easy, to believe in free speech without believing that hitmen/child pornographers be able to advertise their wares.

So what? They aren't hurting ANYONE by "soliciting."

But obviously ,it's not the type of speech that the Framers intended to protect.

People like you always make that claim to omniscience sooner or later.

If they intended to rule out some kinds of speech, why didn't they?

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[JesseMcDonald]

The GP is far from the only one thinking that such advertisements and "solicitation" should be permitted. After all, there are cases where it would be perfectly reasonable to take someone up on such an offer. Perhaps the target is a known murderer, for example, and you're acting on behalf of someone they killed. Or perhaps they've made credible threats against your life, and you want to hire someone to act as your proxy in self-defense should they happen to come after you.

In any event, until the deed is actually done what you propose to outlaw is nothing more than communication. In other words, pure speech. As such, the 1st Amendment should definitely apply.

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[Anonymous Coward]

Never paid for sex - I was using McGrew's numbers. He sounds experienced. So no, not Jersey, Springfield, IL.

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you're confused. Good friends charge a lot more than "professional hookers". You pick up a street walker in any decent big city, you're looking at $5 if she's ending the night and desperate and $25 if she's hot. If you're paying $50+, you're asking for room service or getting ripped off.

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[Eli Gottlieb]

So what? They aren't hurting ANYONE by "soliciting."

Yeah, they're just hurting someone by being HITMEN. So how about instead of requiring the law enforcement be omniscient enough to catch every hitman before he strikes, we prohibit the hitmen from advertising to help stop hits being ordered?

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[HTH NE1]

Paul Stephens: [sarcastically] And tell your pals no funny stuff. I'm very tense, and there's no telling what I might do.
Elizabeth Stephens: Paul?
Dr. John Matthewson: [sotto voce] Take it easy. You're fine.
Paul Stephens: [sarcastically] No, I'm a terrorist. Haven't you been watching television?
Elizabeth Stephens: Paul, what are you talking about?
John Matthewson: Look, just let us t--
Elizabeth Stephens: Paul?
Dr. John Matthewson: Paul?
[Paul has driven off, leaving the payphone dangling]

Dr. John Matthewson: Look, he trusts me. Let me do it. I'll get it back. That's what we want, isn't it?
Lt. Colonel Conroy: How do we know this thing won't be armed?
Dr. John Matthewson: Armed?
Lt. Colonel Conroy: That's right. He used the phrase, "I'm a terrorist." Here.
[consulting transcript]
Lt. Colonel Conroy: [without sarcasm] "No, I'm a terrorist. Haven't you been watching television?"
Dr. John Matthewson: You people really live in your own world, don't you?
Lt. Colonel Conroy: Well, we don't have the luxury of living in yours.

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, the context would matter as well. If these were the only statements that the police could give as evidence, the yea, you're right.

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[Gizzmonic]

The GP is far from the only one thinking that such advertisements and "solicitation" should be permitted. After all, there are cases where it would be perfectly reasonable to take someone up on such an offer. Perhaps the target is a known murderer, for example, and you're acting on behalf of someone they killed. Or perhaps they've made credible threats against your life, and you want to hire someone to act as your proxy in self-defense should they happen to come after you.

There's a big difference between hiring someone as a bodyguard and hiring someone to make a hit. Don't pretend like you don't know the difference.

In any event, until the deed is actually done what you propose to outlaw is nothing more than communication. In other words, pure speech. As such, the 1st Amendment should definitely apply.

Educate yourself about the "marketplace of ideas" concept and what is actually considered protected speech, both by the Framers and by later judicial decisions. Advertising for illegal acts is not, and never has been, considered protected speech.

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[HTH NE1]

Yeah, they're just hurting someone by being HITMEN. So how about instead of requiring the law enforcement be omniscient enough to catch every hitman before he strikes, we prohibit the hitmen from advertising to help stop hits being ordered?

But, they could be hitmen who don't do anything but stay at home and lounge around. You could ask them to kill anything, and they'd tell you, "No! We don't kill anything!"

Anyway, the real ones will just move their listings to housekeeping services.

Re:Mounting Legal Pressure?

[Jherek Carnelian]

So how about instead of requiring the law enforcement be omniscient enough to catch every hitman before he strikes, we prohibit the hitmen from advertising to help stop hits being ordered?

Wouldn't you rather have hitmen advertising out in the open so the cops can find them and run a sting rather than keeping it all underground where it is even harder for the cops to figure out what is going on?

Besides, we have this concept that freedom of expression is a cornerstone of our society and that the exact same argument could be made about all kinds of crimes - if we only did such-and-such then the police won't have to work so hard. Freedom isn't free and Mussolini made the trains run on time.

Profits

[Malenx]

I wonder how much Craigs has made off allowing those postings compared to how much they've lost from people no longer using Craigs due to said content?

Re:Profits

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably nothing, as I don't see any source of income whatsoever on that site to begin with. No advertising, and no fees to buy or sell in the first place...

Re:Profits

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, since the vast majority of ads on craigslist are free, the answer to both question is most likely "zero".

Re:Profits

[gnick]

Not all ads are free. For example, posting for jobs in San Francisco is $75 - $25 in certain other large cities. Apartment posts are $10 for NYC.

Erotic service fees cost $5 anywhere in the US.

See here: http://www.craigslist.org/about/help/posting_fees

Good

[sunking2]

I much prefer the good old days where they would hang out in all the hotel bars looking for a John. Craiglist is too much work.

What is the best place to find a hooker online?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know somebody here knows the answer to this:

What is the best place to find a hooker online?

Re:What is the best place to find a hooker online?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Erotic Review

Re:What is the best place to find a hooker online?

[Anonymous Coward]

How dare Slashdot censor the link you provided! Well, let's see how fast CowboyNeal is. Here's the link again:

Re:What is the best place to find a hooker online?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you have a wife or a daughter?

Both, however if you're inquiring about the 2 girl show, that's more than twice the single girl price.

Re:What is the best place to find a hooker online?

[AlpineR]

MillionaireMatch.com, but they ain't cheap and you must be able to host.

Re:What is the best place to find a hooker online?

[soundguy]

I know somebody here knows the answer to this:

What is the best place to find a hooker online?

The first rule of usenet is...

Re:What is the best place to find a hooker online?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody here needs a link to find something for which he already has the keywords. This site is easy to find, and provides detailed reviews (considered "fictional accounts" by that site's administration) of each provider's companionship. Detailed reviews are only available with subscription....

Such details include play-by-play enumerations of acts, consideration rendered, etc. Freely available information includes provider's website, contact, and ratings.

Pick two

[davidwr]

Erotic, Lesbian, Gorilla: Pick 2.

With apologies to the person who first thought this up.

Re:Pick two

[Jeian]

I consider "erotic" and "gorilla" to be mutually exclusive, but whatever floats your boat.

Re:Pick two

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't add a boat to the mix, it's already complicated enough as it is.

one word... splat!

[skathe]

What's really going to suck is when all those ads start showing up in other sections of craigslist, cluttering it even futher. They actually made the problem worse. Whack-a-mole, yes, but in this case, after you whacked the mole, it just splattered all over the place and it's even more of a mess than it was before. At least with the "Erotic Services" section, the problem was condensed and confined to one single section, at least for the most part.

Re:one word... splat!

[camken]

What's really going to suck is when all those ads start showing up in other sections of craigslist, cluttering it even futher. They actually made the problem worse. Whack-a-mole, yes, but in this case, after you whacked the mole, it just splattered all over the place and it's even more of a mess than it was before. At least with the "Erotic Services" section, the problem was condensed and confined to one single section, at least for the most part.

that is the very reason the "erotic services" section was put in place in the beginning. users were tired of seeing the adverts when all they were after was some "normal" (non-paid-for) encounters with "normal" (define as you see fit) people.

now it's just going to go back to the way it was. woo! score one for the average craigslist user!

word choice fail

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL, summary says that legal pressure is "mounting" the Erotic Services section. Excellent word choice, subbie!

The Onion?

[Anonymous Coward]

Did the the onion predict this? Just last week they where making fun of this part of their website.

I have new interest in Craigslist Adult

[Anonymous Coward]

Earlier, I was not interested in using Craigslist's adult services. But now that I know that they will all be manually reviewed and that my chances of getting into legal trouble will be less... I think I might just go for it! Hooking up with other adults outside of wedlock to engage in sexual congress! It sounds like such a better idea now!

Congrats, puritans. Your legislation has dragged me down to the red light district! It hadn't even crossed my geeky mind before!

The best place to find a hooker online

[davidwr]

I am Mrs Melissa Pointy the wife of Mr Harry Pointy, my husband worked with the Chevron/Texaco in Kenya for twenty years before he lost the use of his penis due to an industrial accident in the year 2001. We have been married for ten years without a child. He is the second son of the late John Pointer, who was a Nigerian Prince. His father left him the sum of $3.5 MILLION UNITED STATES DOLLARS but he cannot collect until he has a child.

If you would be so kind as to have sex with me until I conceive I will pay you a 10% gratuity for your troubles.

To obtain tickets to Nigeria please contact me so I can have my attorney send you instructions to buy airline tickets and pay for lodging.

As soon as I receive your reply I shall give you the contact of my attorney who is in Europe as he will be the one to assist you this endeavor.

Your's Truly,
MRS.Melissa Pointer.

Re:The best place to find a hooker online

[MiniMike]

Well, people who respond to those ads do usually get screwed...

Re:The best place to find a hooker online

[Anonymous Coward]

HAHAHA...You just made my day!

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Migration of Pornography

[Anonymous Coward]

From CNN:

Connecticut Attorney General Richard Blumenthal said state agencies will keep a close eye on the Web site and others "to make sure prostitution and pornography do not migrate and move elsewhere."
"We will be monitoring closely to make sure that this measure is more than a name change from 'erotic' to 'adult' and that the manual blocking is tough and effective to scrub prostitution and pornography," he said.

I fear it has already migrated. I just saw pornography on another Web site. I am wondering if Mr. Blumenthal wants to be kept up to date about sightings of pornography elsewhere on the Web. Should I be trying to help by sending URLs to his office?

Re:Migration of Pornography

[MickyTheIdiot]

So all the pornography on the Internet has migrated from Craigslist? Damn... some of their offices must be REALLY sticky.

Congress?

[davidwr]

sexual congress

If you read the news from Washington, it's more like sexual Congress.

Government Lawsuits

[cromar]

I wonder if this has anything to do with my state government, along with two other states, threatening to sue Craiglist if they didn't start screening that section of the site. For the life of me, I can't understand why that is a better solution than prostitutes advertising their services in public. Wouldn't it be really easy to set up a sting for people who are basically advertising their willingness to provide paid sex services? I mean, they're right there practically donning bull's-eyes!

Re:Government Lawsuits

[afabbro]

The police in various districts have done CL stings repeatedly. Seems like here in Portland it's in the news every 3 months or so...cops rent a hotel room and answer ads, girls are busted. Or vice versa. It apparently hasn't shut this down. Police have been busting streetwalkers for years and yet you still see them on the corners of major cities...

CL switched to requiring phone verification for this category of ads. Then they started charging $5 to list. And now they're dropping it altogether.

I would think this was all business-driven - an evaluation that the hassle costs more than the revenue - but CL has no revenue. In fact, I don't think CL has any actual business model....it's just free ads for whoever wants them. You're probably right that it's the lawsuit threats that are driving them out of this.

Re:Government Lawsuits

[elrous0]

Actually, a lot of Attorney General's are doing the same thing. It appears that there are quite a few AG's out there prepping for their gubernatorial runs.

Re:Government Lawsuits

[PitaBred]

Craigslist doesn't have a hard and fast business model, but they do charge for some ads. But those people are willing to pay because it's very cheap, directed advertising that works well.

Re:Government Lawsuits

[story645]

but they do charge for some ads.

The fees are listed in the craigslist FAQ.

Still a Move in the Right Direction

[Bryan Gividen]

Even though people will always be able to murder, steal, cheat, lie, etc. That does not mean we should consider all efforts to stop illicit activities as fruitless. I am proud of Craigslist for taking a step in the right direction and working to police themselves. Similarly, I'm proud of the authorities for working to enforce the laws that legislatures have passed.

Re:Still a Move in the Right Direction

[ClosedSource]

If the authorities were really enforcing the law they'd be going down the list of women from craigslist and arresting them.

They're not really interested in preventing or even reducing prostitution, they just want to find a scapegoat to take the heat off of themselves.

Re:Still a Move in the Right Direction

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, instead of actually going after the people soliciting prostitution they shut down the place where they post their services.

How exactly is this enforcing the law? Enforcing the law would be setting up stings. All the information is RIGHT THERE. You could bust 20 in one hour with a trivial amount of police work; the shock would ripple through the escort community and actually make an effect.

But all they're doing is changing the location and likely going to make the other parts of Craigslist suffer. We get headlines saying "Erotic Services Shut Down!" and the sheeple go "Hooray!" and anyone with a modicum of cognitive ability sees this for the transparent waste of time it really is.

Re:Still a Move in the Right Direction

[Bellegante]

But they aren't working to enforce the laws!

They are attacking a private citizen for not doing the job for them, when they could be instead using craigslist as an incredibly easy to access directory of the prostitutes that area already out there? Surely you aren't so naive as to think that craigslist has caused this prostitution, or even marginally increased it? The only crime they have committed is bringing other crimes into the public awareness.

Not to mention that this is just another form of censorship.. I wish they'd fought harder.

Re:Still a Move in the Right Direction

[Anonymous Coward]

kill yourself please

You're doing it wrong

[mattdm]

They're not using Times New Roman. The CSS just asks for "font-family: serif;" and you've apparently got Times New Roman set as your default serif font. If you don't like it, change your browser setting to something you find more appealing, and there you go. In general, sans serif fonts are more immediately legible, but serifed fonts are easier to read in larger blocks of text. Since Craigslist posts are generally short, the site would probably be okay with either, but tending towards serifs for body text is in general a good thing.

Re:You're doing it wrong

[Itninja]

I am aware of the browser option but I guess my thinking is this: I should not have to tweak default browser settings just to make a web page look like it was designed by someone with at least a passing familiarity of modern web design practices & standards. It's not that I don't like TNR at all; I agree it has its' place. And I am all for substance-over-style websites. It's just that CR has taken that concept to an extreme - a little style would be nice.

Re:You're doing it wrong

[rackserverdeals]

Yeah cause Craigslist is so Web 2.0 except for the choice of font?

Re:You're doing it wrong

[Al Dimond]

Lots of modern web design practices are stupid, and specifying fonts is one of those practices. I bet if they hired a typical web designer their site would get less usable and bigger, and would fail to render nicely under a wider range of conditions.

I just don't get why you'd care that much about a website being stylish. You seem to concede that the site is not ugly and that it gets its point across. So they don't have anything cutting-edge to say about design. So what?

Re:You're doing it wrong

[Itninja]

I think it just turns the site into a bobo-chic posterchild. CR is multi-million dollar enterprise, yet they seem to intentionally under design the site to give the appearance of being an old-internet independent. Just a pet peeve I guess.

Re:You're doing it wrong

[medeii]

In general, sans serif fonts are more immediately legible, but serifed fonts are easier to read in larger blocks of text.

[citation needed] ;)

There's been a few studies that claimed this, but they had flawed methodologies. Unfortunately, it's lead to widespread misconceptions. Here's a relevant literature review with more information.

Re:You're doing it wrong

[wvmarle]

I would say that the fact that /. renders in a sans-serif font pretty much proves your statement. Because we all know that if anything, the interface of /. is not an example of how it should be done :)

Justification

[Bruce Perens]

I don't think this is going to have any serious effect on Craigslist. They are just changing the name of the service and putting reviewers in place.

We should look at why these sorts of services run into trouble with the law. The reasons run from good to terrible.

• These ads lead to exploitation of children by pimps? If so, good reason.
• These ads lead to exploitation of women by pimps? I had heard the internet had largely done away with pimps because sex workers can market themselves. Is that so?
• These ads lead to murder and mayhem. But then again, that has been happening with Craigslist used-car ads - what better way to lure a victim to bring a roll of cash?
• These ads lead to disease?
• A supernatural being postulated by your religion has given you rules about sex that you feel should apply to everyone. Bad reason.

Re:Justification

[The End Of Days]

Protecting people from themselves is always a terrible reason, and that's all this boils down to no matter how many times people wanna get all "think of the children."

You'd think the whole prohibition mess would have taught the puritanical moral high-ground people how well banning things works. Guess the real whack-a-mole game is trying to hammer the lesson into the nanny-stater head.

Meanwhile, if the law manages to shut down every prostitution ad on the web, they'll just go back to the streets. Good job! I miss walking through a sea of hookers on the way to the train station.

Re:Justification

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think this is going to have any serious effect on Craigslist. They are just changing the name of the service and putting reviewers in place.

so we can rate them now?

Re:Justification

[Joe Jay Bee]

Like on eBay? "A++++ EXCELLENT HOOKER WOULD FUCK AGAIN"

(filterfilterfilterfuckingfilterlesscapsmycolonblahdeblah)

Re:Justification

[Bruce Perens]

Rather than think of it as protecting people from themselves, think of it as protecting the weak from the powerful. Women are in some cases subjugated by men. And then there's the whole poverty, addiction, prostitution cycle.

All of that said, some of the reason we're running into this is because of problems that society isn't willing to handle. You can start with the horribly bungled handling of poverty in the U.S., which seems to have been designed to promote bad social values and create a perpetual client class.

Re:Justification

[Bruce Perens]

so we can rate them now?

Like this: JENNY GAVE ME CRAB LICE! DON'T CALL 867-5309!

:-)

I bet there's a site like that right now.

Re:Justification

[nickrout]

Of course there are places where prostitution is legal, as is its advertising. Craigslist operates in more than just the U.S.

Re:Justification

[Archangel Michael]

I don't care what others do, in the privacy of their bedrooms. I just wish they'd keep it in the privacy of their bedroom.

If you advertise, you're no longer protected by "privacy".

Re:Justification

[Un pobre guey]

There are several sites where sex workers can be rated. Most also point to craigslist ads, as well as others, for convenience. Locating these sites is left as an exercise for the reader.

Re:Justification

[MickyTheIdiot]

wow. I doubt if I will ever see a post from Bruce Perens like that again in my life.

Re:Justification

[Bruce Perens]

So, they can do it, they just can't meet, then.

No going on dates in public either, eh? Because dates often turn into sex. At least mine did.

Maybe you need to adjust your requirements some more.

Re:Justification

[Anonymous Coward]

There are several. The "johns" sometimes refer to their consumer activity (in the reviews) as a "hobby". They judge providers on metrics like sanity, drug use, specific acts available, price, looks, whether acts are committed in a "rushed" way or not, and so forth. I think there are some where the "providers" can talk back but I haven't poked around (no pun) at the sites for a long time so my memory might be faulty.

They are fairly depressing sites to read, if you ask me.

I guess now that sex-slavery has been more in the news in recent years this has changed a bit but "back in the day" El Camino through Contra Costa was a hot-bed of (largely) sex-slave brothels, heavily concentrated around the industrial parks of the Silicon Valley. It was quite the company town in that (and other) regards. They were relocating (mostly male) workers to town like mad with wages that would be high anywhere else in the country but that weren't all that impressive against the housing stock and general cost of living, hookers in the alley's so speak, dealers here and there who specialized in the tech grunts, legally dubious surveillance of workers, rampant discrimination against suspect categories, grifters left and right, corrupt police, debt slavery in multiple forms embedded in (revisable at will by the employer) Conditions of Employment and options agreements, restrictions of trade by the big employers in labor markets, and so forth. The region had not come far, culturally speaking, from the gold-rush days and I don't mean the romantic, exciting, images of the gold-rush I mean the ugly, shit-smell, camp-in-the-mud and shut-up-and-get-back-to-work-on-my-mansion-here-have-some-rye-and-a-hooker-if-that'll-help-ya days. The modernization of prostitution on the 'net today looks to me to be direct cultural fall-out of that.

Some of that (not all) was hidden from well-meaning "shiny golden examples" - grunts raised to prominence and prosperity in no small part to serve as false hope to the average and median grunts.

-t

Re:Justification

[Archangel Michael]

Look, I'm fully libertarian on this issue. I honestly think it would be BETTER for society to LEGALIZE prostitution. Then it could be regulated and taxed properly.

But that is not going to happen, because the religious ones don't want to legalize it at all, the sexual workers don't want to pay taxes and business licenses like the rest of us.

But none of that indicates that I want to see it.

AND there is a huge difference between an advertisement to the general public and a discreet flirting on the sly. I don't want to go out to a movie and hear some chick stand up and say "Blowjobs for $40" (or whatever the going rate is).

We use to call it tact. Don't know what we call it now. Damn I'm getting old. Get off my lawn!

Re:Justification

[Leafheart]

I don't think this is going to have any serious effect on Craigslist. They are just changing the name of the service and putting reviewers in place.

Doesn't that make them liable for what the users post?

Re:Justification

[Anonymous Coward]

The ads on Craigslist did little to stop pimps. Think of pimps more like business managers, taking care of the ads, scheduling, transportation, etc. And they're still nasty characters if things don't go their way (ie, they don't get their money). This isn't to say that there weren't many independent providers, but there were certainly a lot of pimps. You could even tell when independents "joined up" with a pimp, due to the way the ads were structured and the phone numbers used.

My point is, Craigslist didn't change the prostitution industry. The prostitution industry adapted to Craigslist.

I know in my home state of RI (where the Craigslist Killer allegedly struck), the biggest problem has been human trafficking with asian massage parlors. Due to the laws here, these places run with little fear of being shut down, and Craigslist was the perfect place to advertise. I suspect that, even with the new changes coming, these places will still operate just fine, since they don't advertise any services that appear illegal. My fear is it'll lead to an uptick in their popularity, and more widespread human trafficking as a result.

This industry isn't just about sex, and it discourages me that the discussion about it hasn't extended out more. But, what else can I expect from our Puritanical society.

Re:Justification

[Bruce Perens]

Nobody seems to have gotten the joke.

Re:Justification

[drinkypoo]

You can start with the horribly bungled handling of poverty in the U.S., which seems to have been designed to promote bad social values and create a perpetual client class.

Bungled? You haven't been paying attention. Our very public school system is set up to produce a perpetual client class. The system is working as designed. Or perhaps I should say, redesigned. It wasn't always so. There was a time when all we had was a constitution :)

Re:Justification

[Xemu]

Nobody seems to have gotten the joke.

Can we look forward to a Bruce & Tommy Tutone duet?

Re:Justification

[Bruce Perens]

I don't think they can make a case that they were a common carrier. Nor can any blog operator. So, they were liable before, too.

Re:Justification

[Bruce Perens]

He's got my number :-)

Re:Justification

[Un pobre guey]

the sexual workers don't want to pay taxes and business licenses like the rest of us.

That's just flat out wrong. There are all sorts of sex worker defense groups. The only people who don't want it are uptight, short-sighted, meddlesome social conservatives.

Re:Justification

[Electronaught]

Exactly. Any problem in society we just make it illegal and take offenders temporarily out of society by throwing them in jail. This may work on an individual level and only sometimes, but as a whole with our current methods crime will persist for all time. I think we just need to step outside the box and realize that if we fix other aspects of our society like poverty and depression we may be more effective at preventing crime from happening.

Re:Justification

[Electronaught]

You could just stay away from the Erotic section of craigs list. It's not like they are advertising their amazing $500 sex skills during The Simpsons.

Re:Justification

[despisethesun]

If you were fully libertarian on this issue, you wouldn't want to see it regulated and taxed at all. In any case, it's in its own section of the site. If you don't want to see those ads, you can, I dunno, just not click on the Erotic Services link.

Re:Justification

[JesseMcDonald]

fully libertarian ... regulated and taxed

Something about this doesn't seem quite right.

Re:Justification

[Archangel Michael]

So tell me, what taxes would a libertarian want?

Re:Justification

[despisethesun]

Presumably none, as they live in a magical fairy land where infrastructure springs forth from the Earth like plant life and essential services are provided by an army of well-trained monkeys who demand only to be paid in bananas.

Re:Justification

[daveime]

[citation^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hlocation needed]

Re:Justification

[bernz]

Already exists:

http://www.theeroticreview.com/

It is fascinating reading. Just fascinating.

Re:Justification

[Archangel Michael]

Taxes are a necessary evil. They should be limited as should governance.

"Man can hardly rule himself, what makes us think he can rule others?"

Too bad the very same erotic services ads

[FlyingSquidStudios]

are in every single free weekly paper in the entire country.

Re:Too bad the very same erotic services ads

[MickyTheIdiot]

how dare you try to infuse this hotheaded emotional debate with LOGIC.

Think of the children. And you know what... logic is so 20th century. Blindly acting on all your gut feelings is the new black.

Re:Too bad the very same erotic services ads

[Un pobre guey]

Of course. This is just a symbolic gesture to deal with negative PR. A year from now, it will be forgotten and things will be as they were, until yet another psycho does something after responding to a Craigslist ad.

Doesn't this open them up to liability and suits?

[Bellegante]

Before, craigslist could easily claim they were not responsible for content, and that has been the line for quite some time. Now they are going to -manually- review every entry in a particular section? That seems insane to me. They are giving up the most important protection that they have, for no gain at all and a lot of extra work.

Traceability is added... No thanks

[rAiNsT0rm]

Not that I use this section, but you can guarantee that it will now be tracked, logged, and monitored as well as happily turned over to law enforcement if/when requested. No Thanks.

For me personally Craigslist caving in here has ended my use of the site. I can only hope enough others do as well and make their voice heard.

Re:Traceability is added... No thanks

[Anonymous Coward]

it's not easy to have your voice heard by not speaking. Good luck.

What am I going to do now?

[Locke2005]

In the good ol' days, when an ex really pissed you off, you could always place an ad for her "services" on craiglist, causing her to be unendated night and day with phone calls from drunk, horny men. Now what am I going to do when these bitches piss me off? ;-)

Re:What am I going to do now?

[story645]

Now what am I going to do when these bitches piss me off? ;-)

Advertise her services in a men's bathroom in some skeevy bar? Or your local high school?

Fun on Craigslist!

[erroneus]

Prostitutes and other advertisers have no respect for boundaries or appropriateness. Just let that settle into your mind and stop getting angry and frustrated. You will not un-corrupt humanity.

But fun on Craigslist! Yes! Go to the various "personals" and "casual encounters" areas for your area and just search through the ones with pictures. Okay, you might need a strong stomach for some of them, but you might ALSO find people you know or knew or work with! How awesome is that? Suddenly people WILL lend you money again!

Answer to Profits

[sampson7]

Craigslist has a long standing tradition of donating all revenues earned through the Erotic Services section to worthwhile charities, dealing mostly with domestic abuse and other charities that provide services to women or prostitutes. Currently, CL charges $5 per post in the Erotic Service section.

In fact, all of this information is listed on the Erotic Services homepage....

which.... I've heard about. From someone else. In passing. No, I don't remember his name.

Um, what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone please translate to slightly less nerd speak.

Re:Um, what?

[yincrash]

That code decrypts dvds. if used, i believe it violates the DMCA?

Re:Um, what?

[mikael]

DeCSS

Re:Um, what?

[hoggoth]

> Someone please translate to slightly less nerd speak.

This is the recently released code that breaks Blue-Ray DRM.

Re:Um, what?

[againjj]

He posted DeCSS in response to the statement "Just like Slashdot wouldn't be liable if I post DeCSS or something along those lines."

I say let society collapse!

[commodoresloat]

The important question is, where's the afterparty? I'll bring the coke!

NOOOOOO

[adamchou]

I can't die a virgin...

Let's consider it more carefully

[ClosedSource]

Campaign finance laws have been challenged on the basis that contributing money to a campaign is an exercise in free speech.

Couldn't a guy arrested for soliciting a prostitute claim that he was merely exercising his first amendment rights to express his belief that paying for sex is not a crime?

Re:Let's consider it more carefully

[Gizzmonic]

Campaign finance laws have been challenged on the basis that contributing money to a campaign is an exercise in free speech.

That's just sad. It's funny how radio and TV airwaves are supposed to be owned by the people, yet they are tightly controlled by corporate interests, who can exercise their right to free speech a lot more than we plebes can.

Couldn't a guy arrested for soliciting a prostitute claim that he was merely exercising his first amendment rights to express his belief that paying for sex is not a crime?

He can claim whatever he wants. However, I'd love to be the prosecuting attorney on that case.

When will we learn?

[Electronaught]

When will people learn that you are never ever ever going to stop two people from exchanging money for sex. Sure there's a possible risk involved in these transactions, but making it illegal doesn't just magically remove this risk. People are going to do what they want no matter what. Making anything illegal in no way makes us any safer. Does stealing and killing being illegal do anything for its prevention?

Re:When will we learn?

[FunkSoulBrother]

Does stealing and killing being illegal do anything for its prevention?

Um... yes?

But yeah nothing is wrong with legal prostitution, it really can't be equated to theft or murder.

A victory for all the world to celebrate!

[Un pobre guey]

Craigslist will change the name of the section from Erotic Services to [begin fanfare] Adult Services [end fanfare]. Moralists, pretentious busybodies, and deranged religious fanatics can now celebrate and return to their burrows to once again stay out of the way of civilized society.

As time goes by, the parade of human folly seems more and more absurd. Maybe it's because I'm getting older. I hate to think what "for which each posting will be manually reviewed before it appears" means, though. I can only assume there were thousands of them. I suspect that the law only requires them to not print ads for flagrant exchanges of money for sex. Most Craigslist erotic ads already used a variety of vague euphemisms anyway (or so I've read).

sfredbook.com

[Paracelcus]

What's the sound that Quagmire makes in Family Guy? (diggity-diggity?)

Re:Hookers use cell phones too

[Anonymous Coward]

What criminals? Is prostitution illegal over there?

check your local yellowpages lately?

[Anonymous Coward]

i know its SO 1991, but go find a phonebook somewhere. see that big section under ESCORTS? Guess what, you don't pay just so you can take them around town to your fancy parties. Where's the crackdown? This whole thing is absurd.

Catch a disease? Methinks not

[davidwr]

I know CL allows photos in its ads but I don't know of any way to vector a trojan through a CL post, but there have been jpeg exploits in the past and there might be in the future.

Of course, that doesn't count the heart attack you get when someone sends you a TinyURL'd Craiglist ad that has a P3N*S in it.

Solution to the Solution

[DeanFox]

"Erotic services" was created to solve a problem in the "personals". If the new monitored "adult section" (new name for the old link) starts to delete, not allow or delay the ads they'll just go right back to where they were to start with. The (unmonitored BTW) "personals" is where everybody advertised before the "erotic services" was created.

Sheeez. Are these prosecutors really this stupid? I suppose if I have to ask the question.....

In Soviet Russia

[Culture20]

Craigslist Erotic Services Ads kills you!

Too soon?

Re:In Soviet Russia

[sixpenny_83]

But the readers are dying for more.

Re:In Soviet Russia

[W1sdOm_tOOth]

Craigslist Erotic Services Ads kills you!

However in the rest of the world it only makes you blind...

I agree

[goldcd]

But your personal opinion isn't going to help Craigslist (and their advertisers).
Sort out your elected representatives and it'll all neatly and legally fall into place.

What next, ban google ?h

[parallel_prankster]

So now the obvious next step would be to ban google since it allows people to search for erotic services on the internet ? Or wait!, we can search for ANYTHING on the internet due to google!!! That must be stopped.

carlin

[Anonymous Coward]

selling is legal
fucking is legal
how can selling fucking not be legal?

Re:carlin

[billcopc]

Because the gov't hasn't figured out how to tax it (yet?!)

Re:carlin

[HTH NE1]

selling is legal
fucking is legal
how can selling fucking not be legal?

It is if the people fucking are being paid and the payer isn't participating in the fucking. You can sell videos of it if you have documentation that the fuckers are of legal age (depending on the jurisdiction).

Parent is an idiot.

[Anonymous Coward]

law enforcement isn't really interested in any major effort to investigate and prosecute prostitutes, they just want to hide it.

Your an idiot for saying something so un-informed.

Their are Police Units that work very hard to end sex-slavery/child prostitution. and they do use craigslist and other online classified sites to find possible victims. Just like anything, the harder something is to find and acquire, the less likely it WILL be found and acquired.

Re:Parent is an idiot.

[ClosedSource]

I wasn't referring to sex-slaves or child prostitution.

But surely if law enforcement systematically went right down the ads in craigslist arresting each woman, it would have a major effect on discouraging the ads. I don't believe that law enforcement has taken that approach but if you have some evidence to the contrary I'm willing to be corrected.

Re:Parent is an idiot.

[Builder]

It's hard to take you seriously when you call people an idiot and can't even spell "you're".

Re:Hookers use cell phones too

[Renraku]

The police in many areas don't have the resources necessary to take down that many prostitutes. There's a lot of legal legwork involved with prostitution arrests. You can't just arrest a woman that has money on her and the man that just left her house. Most of the time the only way a bust is going to be good in court is if either the 'john' or 'hooker' is actually a police officer trying to bait the other party into giving away their intentions.

where do all these authoritarians come from?

[Anonymous Coward]

we really need to find a way to weed these people out of the gene pool so they stop oppressing everyone.

Announcing New Slashdot Erotic Services Ads!

[HangingChad]

Where you go when your wookie wants to have a good time!

Re:Announcing New Slashdot Erotic Services Ads!

[daveime]

Endor ? That does not make sense !

Re:Unemployment Rates It most ASSuredly would

[davidsyes]

be a HARD thing to do...

Maybe CL should sell RealDolls with strategically-located, UDD-filled cavities.... That stuff could moderate down the neutrons in ANY hard dick forging ahead.

Re:Hookers use cell phones too

[lawpoop]

As I said in an earlier comment, this is about maintaining public order, not about law enforcement. Too many soccer moms were seeing ads for prostitution when they went to sell their TV or whatever. They complained to the authorities to shut this down. Now, the police aren't going to be able to get rid of all prostitution, and in a lot of cases, they really don't want to. They just have to keep it out of the faces of decent, upstanding citizens.

Pointless

[bluefoxlucid]

Casual Encounters is full of posts for "Generou$" "$afe" "Ro$e$" etc. Most posts are spam; I managed to get 10 real people talking to me one day, and 9 were whores looking for $100-$180/hour. (I didn't have sex with the 10th, she was hot but we kind of talked for a bit and that was it.) One said she desperately wanted to suck a dick and then told me there was a "donation of 100 roses" required. Most of the posts are hookers.

Newspaper classifieds ftw!

[billcopc]

But now where am I going to find fresh tech-savvy whores to choke ? I've grown quite fond of our pre-strangulation dissertations on the fractal permutations of chia pet arrangements.

Re:Newspaper classifieds ftw!

[Eli Gottlieb]

Hans Reiser, is that you?

Police taking lessons from MPAA/RIAA

[Anonymous Coward]

The erotic services section has been purportedly shut down to stop a continued battle in court as police and whoever else, sue them (c.f. Cook County in IL), etc.

Craigslist hasn't been shown to be doing anything illegal.

So what this amounts to is the various law enforcement agencies strong-arming craigslist to shut down that section.

It is a move very similar to what the MPAA/RIAA have done: offer defendents a "cheap" way out by only asking for $1000s or face a very expensive court battle that never ends (even if you're innocent) that you can't afford to fight, even if the MPAA/RIAA have breached the law, etc, in accusing you.

Maybe Obama can overhaul the legal system, like he is the medical system, to provide proper service to all citizens, not just the rich and wealthy.

Craigslist becomes censureship arm of government

[HermMunster]

Being that this is pressure by the government to change their service in order to censure the public, regardless of whether legal or illegal activities are taking place, this puts Craigslist in the position of violating the US Constitution by acting as the arm of the police authority.

This is no different than a civilian such as the property owner being sent in by the police authorities to search a suspects premises. They can't do it without warrant but police have tried. The courts have ruled that those private individuals then become an agent of the police and are bound by the laws governing their actions.

The Attorney General is doing the same thing here by forcing a private entity to search in order to monitor the users and stop activity that may or may not be illegal.

Had Craigslist done this without the influence of the government it would have just been a company covering their ass, but because they are doing it as a direct result of the government coercion they are now acting as an agent of the government.

Re:Hookers use cell phones too

[misexistentialist]

The impetus behind this was that a robber/murderer found victims through Craigslist. Because of one death the police feel they need to eliminate a form of communication used by millions in order to protect prostitutes from their clients.... or really the police just needed to do something. They couldn't exactly make a press-statement about the shortage of qualified pimps, so they took the easy route of clamping down on the general populace, and now they'll have something to say when it comes time for promotion/re-election. Of course the reality is they probably just sentenced 100s of women forced to street walk to beatings and dozens to death.

Drugs are sold via Craigslist

[Anonymous Coward]

If you know all of your keywords and alternative names for drugs, then it is possible to find ads from people both selling drugs and wanting to buy narcotic drugs. Coke, marjuana, heroine, ice, etc, I've seen ads for all of them. Some are more common than others.

On rare occasions, the poster isn't very subtle.

I don't know if the posters are (or are not) police as they're not something that interests me.

But if you know what you're looking for, you can find people trading drugs (narcotics) on craigslist.

Re:Drugs are sold via Craigslist

[JWSmythe]

    I actually do know most of the keywords. But there isn't a section named "altered state services" :)

Unionize!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want to be sure the worker's aren't exploited, then you need to legally restrict the job to union members. Make sure the union negotiates guarantees for regular paid time-off, sick leave, retirement, etc.

Of course you'd never get such a law past the lobbyist from the competing union ... the one which requires its members to wear a signet ring (with a shiny stone, on a particular finger, ... :-)

Re:Craigslist becomes censureship arm of governmen

[infosinger]

Just what you would expect from a bunch of Republicans. Oh, wait...

What we're sure to see...

[Anonymous Coward]

... is all the hookers simply moving their businesses over to the normal personals sections and taking up space there, like they used to before they were given the erotic services board in the first place.

And thus the signal-to-noise ratio of the legitimate boards is lowered because a pack of prissy out-of-state shitstains from the south and midwest got their panties all up in a wad over something that's none of their damn business.

Is it any wonder that I hate everything east of the Sierras?

Re:Hookers use cell phones too

[Anonymous Coward]

They wanted to sell their TV in the erotic services section?

Re:Hookers use cell phones too

[RazorSharp]

Seems like everyone defending Craig's List has very weak arguments (hrmm. . wonder why. . .) Anyway quick retort: a cell phone conversation is private and protected by the fourth amendment of the U.S. constitution while an advertisement on Craig's List is public and in this case solicits illegal commodities/services.

And believe it or not, the success of a police department isn't gauged by how many arrests they make. Of course they would have an endless supply of prostitutes to arrest if they allowed CL to continue business as usual, but the goal of the police is to prevent crime. Considering your argument, we need more criminals so police can be more successful. How that ties into serving and protecting is beyond me.

Poor Choice of Words

[StevenAD]

I'm not sure "Craigslist Kills Erotic Services Ads" was the best choice of words, given the circumstances that brought about that change.

This will only create more fake posts...

[mrsir]

This will only create more fake posts in other sections. Thankfully alternative sites such as SWF Swingers exists. I predict many Craigslist users going elsewhere to sites like SWF Swingers

Re:This will only create more fake posts...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey Mr Mod, I think you forgot to check that "Post Anonymously" box.

Catholics don't care if Jesus is Lord. Hail Mary.

[Anonymous Coward]

And if you look up in some of the more scholarly non-Catholic faiths, you'll get to see the research that proves the Roman Catholic Pope in-fact created Islam by sending his daughter to meet with Mohammad's daughter (Fatima). As well, you'll also see the research that proved the Witch Trials and persecution done early in America and many parts of the Old World was against not pagans but the Covenanter sect. As well, you'll also see the research that Mormons are not necessarily Christ inspired but an in-between religion more directed towards Hinduism and not as a "bridge" religion as was Sheikism was between Islam and Hinduism. As well, you'll also see the research...and it goes on even to Tesla, the lost red-haired race of giants ancestral to the Americas, and whatnot else.

There's a lot of records covered and not yet catalogued on America hundreds of years before the f*cking United States 1776 arrived to pilfer and pervert it all into a "His-story" mode of compulsory schooling that teaches no motor skills or scientific method and theory.

What does "pervert" mean? Seriously.

[GameboyRMH]

You know, I still don't understand the meaning of "pervert" as it's used today. It's been used for everything from pedophiles to men who take pleasure in seeing naked/lightly clothed women they have no relationship with (which certainly makes me and any straight/bi male I know a "pervert"). Whatever its original meaning was (I'm sure I could find it with a little research), it's been overused so badly that the meaning has been diluted to nothing.

Re:What does "pervert" mean? Seriously.

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno, I just know it's really offensive when you get called a pervert before you even have sex by girls who've sucked, fucked, had a menage a tois, and pulled a train...

And maybe it's just me, but hypocrisy is really a turnoff :)

Heh

[AP31R0N]

Uh huh huh. Manually review.

Hehe, yeah. MANUAL!

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[account_deleted]

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[account_deleted]

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Just a show for the voting public

[doesnothingwell]

Police detectives most likely didn't care about Craigslist, busting some hookers was a mouse click away. Some prosecutor said this looks like an easy PR stunt with no downside, rights get trampled and morons get elected. Film at 11:00

Inertia and Stigmatic Devaluation of Property

[jamiefaye]

Prostitution was legal here in San Francisco up until the early part of the 20th Century. Then we had an earthquake. This was taken by many as a sign from God that He did not approve of what was taking place here. (Plate tectonics had not caught on at this time).

Prostitution was banned, as were eventually drugs & alcohol, creating the present balance of hypocrisy.

Attempts to repeal this recently have failed. There are 3 reasons:

1) Some people view the prohibition of commercial sex as immoral and believe that legal intervention is moral. They have no problems citing the indirect effects of their prohibition as evidence for their argument.

2) This group is joined by people for whom "prostitution is against the law" is accepted as being part of the common law tradition. "If its against the law, then its bad, so we better keep it that way." (It isn't against the law in most places now, and has only been prohibited in some places for the past 100 or so years).

3) Much larger than 1) and 2) are people who think "if we make this legal, then there will be naked women standing in dim-lit red windows, offering themselves for sale", and people who would otherwise buy my house for $500,000, will only give me $350,000 for it. (Perhaps too sophisticated) - Hookers would be standing in front of my house and the neighborhood would go to hell.

Craigslist advertising, in effect, creates a "virtual stroll" that doesn't cause a real-world neighborhood impact. It is, in effect a tentative cure to the "NIMBY problem".

So we have a law that was created from illogical reasons, justified for illogical reasons, that we are afraid to repeal for illogical reasons.

What is really weird is that since humans dread being shamed for making mistakes, it is hard to get an wrongly convicted person out of prison or to repeal a law with no sensible rationale.

Legalizing prostitution requires a lot of people to admit they are wrong.

If this law was based on sound logic, it would be easy to change. It isn't, so it won't - the only hope is to invent new forms of sex work that end-around it.

Re:Inertia and Stigmatic Devaluation of Property

[jamiefaye]

Fix:
  1) Some people view the commercial sexual economy as being immoral and believe that legal intervention is moral.

People & These State Officials Don't Care

[Anonymous Coward]

They just want to shake their finger at someone. If they really cared they wouldn't make it harder and harder for women in an already tough situation to make a living and stay safe.

So it seems to only be an issue of whether or not these people can make money off of the money that someone is making.