I'm just waiting for the inevitable announcement the GTK port of OpenOffice has been cancelled.
What GTK+ port?  IIRC, they are going to make OpenOffice into a Bonobo component so that it can be embeded in a Bonobo container.  That componentization does not mean a GTK+ widget interface for OO...
Remember also that the country was founded by those seeking a new land in which to be free. Their frame of mind was encompassing all of those entering the country.
And I would argue that those who were coming to this country then were coming to be citizens as trans-atlantic trips were not the most fun thing in the world to endure.
But reading the constitution and other papers by the country's founders shows that no one within our borders was intended to be excluded from constitutional protection.
I don't have a problem with that actually.  However, I do not think that constitutional guarantees and the privledges of citizenship should extend to those here illegally.
My brother says "Mo fo butter layin me to da bone, jackin me up, tightly."
Wait a sec while I get Barbra Billingsley.  I don't speak jive...:-)
Last I checked, non-citizens had no rights under the Constitution...  Not sure how the constitution applies to persons here with a visa, but it doesn't apply to anybody here without one.
Maybe you would like to explain the fiscal realities to the 100,000+ airline workers who have just been laid off at the same time as their employers have been given a bail-out by the government.
How much did the airlines lose while grounded?  How much do they have to pay for security standards mandated by the government that they need to enforce?  Face it, the bailout is so that the entire industry doesn't go under and more than 100,000 employees will be jobless.  $5 billion is a bargain compared to the unemployment insurance claims that would result.  You seem to be pathological in your assumptions that "business is evil".
I know of a few people who have had the same job for 15 years, and are secure in their position, but that seems to be the exception, rather than the rule.
And all evidence points to the fact that it's because employees hop around more often, not because "evil employers" are firing their senior staff.
And take a look at the Salshdot article last week about how layoffs are handled.
Ah yes, I forget what a paragon of truth and fact that Slashdot reporting is known to be.  IIRC, that article was about bad businesses with terrible business practices.  Now wonder they handled firing their employees poorly.
I thought the whole point of this thread was that it doesn't.
No, the point of the thread was that some perceive that it doesn't work.  At the beginning of this thread some individuals from another country were put off that both they and the employer can end the employment at will rather than having a government mandated/protected separation period.  I didn't get the impression that they were let go, but that it was just unsettling for them.
I don't see how two weeks notice on either side is that much of a hinderance
Last I checked, two weeks notice is the norm and if somebody can't manage that as often as possible, then their fairly low class.  I tend to try and give 3 months so that adequate handoffs can be done.  One time due to circumstances I couldn't control, I had to truncate my previously given notice down to two days.  I was straightforward with the reasons and they were both understanding and accommodating.  All this because both the employer and I worked to build a good and healthy relationship.  I'm against legislating that "two week" period since there are going to be circumstances where it's irrelevant and quite frankly, I don't see how it's necessary if people were not petty snivelling brats at times.  Why cater to the lowest common denominator???
and I think that employer's should have a valid reason for firing you, not just because they don't like the look of your face.
Why?  It's a private company and they should be able to do with it whatever they want including firing you because of a nose ring.  If they behave in that fashion, the chances are high that they won't be in business too long nor will they be successful at retaining their employees...  In my mind, it's a self correcting problem (as most market driven things are.)
No matter how loyal you are to your company, if they can profit, or improve their stock price, by dumping you, then they'll do so at the drop of a hat, with no apologies.
Man, what a poor attitude.  That, and you're working for the wrong companies.  I have NEVER found this to be the case in my 15 plus years of experience.  Are there fiscal realities that might make me lose my job?  Sure there are.  In fact, my company is going to be cutting 20% of it's workforce sometime in the near future.  Chances are that I won't be affected, but if I am, I understand the reasons (they aren't selling enough to sustain the business at the current levels) and I'll deal with it in a mature manner.  My employer was forward with me about the realities and didn't just drop this crap on me from out of the blue.
You seem to think that business' only goal is profit and all else be damned.  I think that's a pretty sad view...
For the life of me, I can't understand the rationale of the 'at will' agreement, and how it has managed to stand for so long.
Because it works?  In most non-Union workplaces, there isn't too much animosity between management and workers.  Screw legislated job "security".  I'd rather work hard and be loyal to my company and have the favor returned in kind.  Assuming that they won't be loyal kinda gets us off on the wrong foot dontcha think? 
FCC + License (under condition of normal person, not a huge amount of money) = NO FUCKING DICE.
And you have real world examples/facts to back this up?  If not, I'm going to consider it FUD.  I'm willing to bet that a license for a low-power station or a non-profit one is not going to be all that much when compared to the cost of actually broadcasting a signal.
Don't get me wrong.  I am wary of the government and it's motivations, but the fact of the matter is, you have the freedom to broadcast a signal if you are so inclined.  Is it free of cost?  No, and nor should it be.
Anyhow, the original point was that just because Clear Channel put out a list of "no-no" songs to it's affiliates does not constitute an infringement of free speech.  They are a private company and can do what they want with the airwaves they pay for.  If you don't like it then don't listen and don't support their advertisers -- or, heaven forbid, you could write them a letter voicing your disappointment.  Even better, you can start your own station and play what you like.  No ammount of bitching about the FCC fees is going to change the fact that you CAN do it if you want.
Really?  The Swiss have a firearm in most every household and were by far the most polite people in the 13 countries I visited during my 1.5 year stay in Europe.  They were also stuffy and very anal about their rules but that has nothing to do with politeness.  The French were anything but polite and the Brits were a bit lacking.  Many Brits however were fairly fiendly but that should not be confused with being polite.  In my experience, the French were hopeless...
1. You only need to do it once each time you start your computer. For those of us who leave our boxes running for months or more, there is a significant difference between boots and sessions.
Are the two really different (reboots and X sessions?)  They certainly aren't for me.
2. you can use it for cron jobs. That means you can securely perform remote operations without using unencrypted keys.
Hmmmm.  As described in the article, putting the keychain in the.bashrc file would not work for cronjobs. From the BASH(1) man page in the INVOCATION section:
If bash is invoked with the name sh, it tries to mimic the
startup behavior of historical versions of sh as closely
as possible, while conforming to the POSIX standard as
well.
...
A non-interactive shell invoked with the name sh does
not attempt to read any other startup files.
On my system (RedHat), cron executes commands with/bin/sh.
No, they still can't clone (but, since cloning isn't really producing geneticly identical clones, it's not really worth it)
Besides the fact that it's off-topic, if it's not worth it, why even bother bringing it up?
the Bush policy will drive stem-cell research, and the future of medice into the hands of biotech giants
I don't follow you totally on this one.  How much federal money were we really talking about here?  More than $300,000,000?  Spread across how many institutions (including biotech giants that are already flush with cash)?  Anyhow, my point is that the money can easily come from other sources than the feds.  The folks wanting the feds to pony up the cash are making a mountain out of a mole hill IMO since when you get right down to it, it's not that much money (yeah, it'd be a lot to you and me, but it's nothing compared to the budget of most any large research University.)  I have any hang ups with the research happening.  I'm just sick of everybody looking to D.C. for a handout and then bitching when they don't get one because it helps to push their fucked-up political agenda.
George W. Bush essentially closed the door on the creation of new human embryonic stem cell lines by restricting the funding to 60 existing cell lines, most of which are covered by patents of one sort or another.
Uh, that's only if they use federal funds.  If they don't use federal funds there are NO restrictions.
Huh? I went to the site to see when it was going to be released and it just said "soon".
From Loki's front page...
8.1.01 We're excited to announce that Kohan: Immortal Sovereigns, the first commercially-available real-time fantasy strategy game for Linux will ship August 15! Also, Halls of Valhalla, the official standalone multiplayer expansion pack for Rune will also ship August 15.
Will that date slip?  I've no idea nor am I worried.  This is the first time ordering direct from Loki as all my other game purchases (Civ:CTP, Q3, SOF, D3, SMAC, MindRover, Myth II, HG2, Tribes 2 and Terminus) have either been through Tux Games or my local Frys.  I just got confirmation about Rune and "Programming Linux Games" shipping and expect to hear back on my Kohan order as well in the next day or two.  Not that I have any time to play the games before December, but so life goes.:-)
Ok, the site wasn't slashdotted too badly.  I just ordered Rune and the "Programming Linux Games" book.  Halls of Valhalla wasn't available for order yet.  For less than $150, I've got Kohan, Rune and a cool book on the way to my door in a few days...
Now it seems like the only thing that will save Loki is either a killer title or just a sudden surge in Linux gaming popularity.
No, what will save Loki is if you go to their site and order a game or two or three rather than lamenting the fact that they are having financial difficulties.  I ordered Kohan last night directly from Loki and will be ordering Rune and the expansion pack tonight after the site is no longer slashdotted.  The surest way to help Loki is to give them a reason to move some product!
Do you never drive on public roads? Get no value from the disincentive to rob/murder/rape you from the police? If you didn't get fire control services for free, wouldn't you pay for them?
For local fire, police and roads, why do I need to pay Washington D.C. just to have less of the money come back to my local community?  I'm confused...
but some of that money is responsible for the comfortable life you lead.
No, I'm responsible for the comfortable life that I provide for my family.  I'm more than happy to pay taxes (virtually any other kind of tax that isn't income based) for defense and national infrastructure.  Not all public works are bad.  I would however argue that most are nothing but a waste of my money.  I look at the $40K+ that my wife and I paid in income taxes and marvel at how much better I could have made my own community better with those funds instead of sending them to Washington D.C. and Sacramento.
No, what you do is totally deregulate the telcos and the industry as a whole.  Ever taken a look at any telco tarrifs?  No wonder there aren't any bit players trying to enter the market.  The fact that you need a staff of lawyers to enter the market is a good indication that there is a bit too much government in our current market.
If the government is going to be providing the service, thanks, but I'd rather do without...
the new Treasury Secretary advocates the abolition of corporate taxes and capital gains taxes on corporations , giving the American Corporation all the privileges and benefits of personhood under the law, while requiring none of the sacrifices or responsibilities.
Who pays those taxes?  Oh yeah, that's right, you and me since we are the customers of corporations and other businesses.  I'm all for corporations and businesses to not have to pay taxes as well as stripping their "benefits of personhood" as you put it. (Nice title for it.  I like it...)
He also favors the abolition of Social Security, MediCare
Damn straight, Skippy.  When your social security withholding hits 30% (probably in the next 10-15 years -- your contribution will be 15% and your employers will be 15%) I reckon' you'll change your tune.
Another example of where the Korporate Kompassionate Konservatives want to take us as a country.
Nice.  When you lack something substantive to say you resort to name calling.
Any doubt anymore about who REALLY owns this government?
Given the amount of taxes that I pay, I own a big chunk.  Want to buy my share from me?
Yes, you have a right to free expression; don't I have a right to privacy? (Apparently not, in this country...)
The U.S. Constitution guarantees free speech via the First Amendment.  Unfortunately there is no such guarantee of privacy in the U.S. Constituition.  Some people would argue that the Fourth Amendment provides this, but that's not my reading of it.  That said, I'd be in favor of an amendment that would guarantee such a right...
...there's a rainbow coalition website who would have been edged out by our republican, white congress, some of whom were in office and voted against civil-rights legislation in the 60's
I think you have some facts wrong about who voted for and against the Civil Rights Act.
The House passed the bill 289 to 124, where 80% of Republicans and 63% of Democrats voted yes.
The Senate passed the bill 73 to 27, where 21 Democrats and 6 Republicans voted no.
Who fillibustered the Senate for 14 hours against the passage of the bill?  That's right, it's the Democrate "white n*gger hater" Robert Byrd.
Yes, I know. The Chinese had the W-88 back when Clinton was still governor of a certain Southern state. It was Reagan, that avatar of national defense, who was responsible for leaking the W-88 technology.
What's your reference for this?  According to the Cox report, the Chinese espionage efforts extended as far back as Carter.  The big difference is that it reports that Carter, Reagan and Bush knew nothing of this.
Unfortunately it's documented that the Clinton administration did.  Despite the Clinton's claims the contrary, his own Secretary of Energy admitted he was repeatedly briefed.  So rather than do something about it he chose to put his head in the sand.
Nastier than McCarthyism? I think not.
Good point.  I was thinking only about the Presidential realm, but yeah, you're right!
The worst thing Clinton did in office was perjure himself to the American people and to Congress about an extramarital affair.
No, the worst thing that President Clinton did was violate the law that he swore to uphold.  Was Iran-Contra wrong?  You bet.  You'll get no apologies from me about it.  That doesn't change the fact that Clinton and his administration were corrupt and no ammount of blame deflection will change that.
A limited redistribution of wealth, based on income, is pragmatic, realistic, and rationally-justified.
We have a fundamental disagreement here I would suspect.  I don't agree with a tax on income.  I would much more vigorously support a sales tax based on the following reasons:
1) It's ultimately fair to everybody since all income is eventually consumed.
2) It's anonymous.
3) It does not require a behemoth organization like the IRS to oversee collections.
4) Everybody pays
Slashdot Mirror
I'm just waiting for the inevitable announcement the GTK port of OpenOffice has been cancelled.
What GTK+ port?  IIRC, they are going to make OpenOffice into a Bonobo component so that it can be embeded in a Bonobo container.  That componentization does not mean a GTK+ widget interface for OO...
Nice troll...
Remember also that the country was founded by those seeking a new land in which to be free. Their frame of mind was encompassing all of those entering the country.
:-)
And I would argue that those who were coming to this country then were coming to be citizens as trans-atlantic trips were not the most fun thing in the world to endure.
But reading the constitution and other papers by the country's founders shows that no one within our borders was intended to be excluded from constitutional protection.
I don't have a problem with that actually.  However, I do not think that constitutional guarantees and the privledges of citizenship should extend to those here illegally.
My brother says "Mo fo butter layin me to da bone, jackin me up, tightly."
Wait a sec while I get Barbra Billingsley.  I don't speak jive...
indefinite jailing without trial of noncitizens
:-)
Last I checked, non-citizens had no rights under the Constitution...  Not sure how the constitution applies to persons here with a visa, but it doesn't apply to anybody here without one.
"Momma didn't raise no dummy." - Airplane
So how is your brother anyway?
Maybe you would like to explain the fiscal realities to the 100,000+ airline workers who have just been laid off at the same time as their employers have been given a bail-out by the government.
How much did the airlines lose while grounded?  How much do they have to pay for security standards mandated by the government that they need to enforce?  Face it, the bailout is so that the entire industry doesn't go under and more than 100,000 employees will be jobless.  $5 billion is a bargain compared to the unemployment insurance claims that would result.  You seem to be pathological in your assumptions that "business is evil".
I know of a few people who have had the same job for 15 years, and are secure in their position, but that seems to be the exception, rather than the rule.
And all evidence points to the fact that it's because employees hop around more often, not because "evil employers" are firing their senior staff.
And take a look at the Salshdot article last week about how layoffs are handled.
Ah yes, I forget what a paragon of truth and fact that Slashdot reporting is known to be.  IIRC, that article was about bad businesses with terrible business practices.  Now wonder they handled firing their employees poorly.
I thought the whole point of this thread was that it doesn't.
No, the point of the thread was that some perceive that it doesn't work.  At the beginning of this thread some individuals from another country were put off that both they and the employer can end the employment at will rather than having a government mandated/protected separation period.  I didn't get the impression that they were let go, but that it was just unsettling for them.
I don't see how two weeks notice on either side is that much of a hinderance
Last I checked, two weeks notice is the norm and if somebody can't manage that as often as possible, then their fairly low class.  I tend to try and give 3 months so that adequate handoffs can be done.  One time due to circumstances I couldn't control, I had to truncate my previously given notice down to two days.  I was straightforward with the reasons and they were both understanding and accommodating.  All this because both the employer and I worked to build a good and healthy relationship.  I'm against legislating that "two week" period since there are going to be circumstances where it's irrelevant and quite frankly, I don't see how it's necessary if people were not petty snivelling brats at times.  Why cater to the lowest common denominator???
and I think that employer's should have a valid reason for firing you, not just because they don't like the look of your face.
Why?  It's a private company and they should be able to do with it whatever they want including firing you because of a nose ring.  If they behave in that fashion, the chances are high that they won't be in business too long nor will they be successful at retaining their employees...  In my mind, it's a self correcting problem (as most market driven things are.)
No matter how loyal you are to your company, if they can profit, or improve their stock price, by dumping you, then they'll do so at the drop of a hat, with no apologies.
Man, what a poor attitude.  That, and you're working for the wrong companies.  I have NEVER found this to be the case in my 15 plus years of experience.  Are there fiscal realities that might make me lose my job?  Sure there are.  In fact, my company is going to be cutting 20% of it's workforce sometime in the near future.  Chances are that I won't be affected, but if I am, I understand the reasons (they aren't selling enough to sustain the business at the current levels) and I'll deal with it in a mature manner.  My employer was forward with me about the realities and didn't just drop this crap on me from out of the blue.
You seem to think that business' only goal is profit and all else be damned.  I think that's a pretty sad view...
For the life of me, I can't understand the rationale of the 'at will' agreement, and how it has managed to stand for so long.
Because it works?  In most non-Union workplaces, there isn't too much animosity between management and workers.  Screw legislated job "security".  I'd rather work hard and be loyal to my company and have the favor returned in kind.  Assuming that they won't be loyal kinda gets us off on the wrong foot dontcha think? 
FCC + License (under condition of normal person, not a huge amount of money) = NO FUCKING DICE.
And you have real world examples/facts to back this up?  If not, I'm going to consider it FUD.  I'm willing to bet that a license for a low-power station or a non-profit one is not going to be all that much when compared to the cost of actually broadcasting a signal.
Don't get me wrong.  I am wary of the government and it's motivations, but the fact of the matter is, you have the freedom to broadcast a signal if you are so inclined.  Is it free of cost?  No, and nor should it be.
Anyhow, the original point was that just because Clear Channel put out a list of "no-no" songs to it's affiliates does not constitute an infringement of free speech.  They are a private company and can do what they want with the airwaves they pay for.  If you don't like it then don't listen and don't support their advertisers -- or, heaven forbid, you could write them a letter voicing your disappointment.  Even better, you can start your own station and play what you like.  No ammount of bitching about the FCC fees is going to change the fact that you CAN do it if you want.
Provided you get an FCC license [fcc.gov]:
Yeah.  And?  What's your point?
Wouldn't some competition be nice?
You're free to start your own radio station.  No matter how you slice it, this isn't censorship...
Really?  The Swiss have a firearm in most every household and were by far the most polite people in the 13 countries I visited during my 1.5 year stay in Europe.  They were also stuffy and very anal about their rules but that has nothing to do with politeness.  The French were anything but polite and the Brits were a bit lacking.  Many Brits however were fairly fiendly but that should not be confused with being polite.  In my experience, the French were hopeless...
ESR is right.
Remember the old adage, "An armed society is a polite society."
1. You only need to do it once each time you start your computer. For those of us who leave our boxes running for months or more, there is a significant difference between boots and sessions.
.bashrc file would not work for cronjobs. From the BASH(1) man page in the INVOCATION section:
...
/bin/sh.
Are the two really different (reboots and X sessions?)  They certainly aren't for me.
2. you can use it for cron jobs. That means you can securely perform remote operations without using unencrypted keys.
Hmmmm.  As described in the article, putting the keychain in the
If bash is invoked with the name sh, it tries to mimic the
startup behavior of historical versions of sh as closely
as possible, while conforming to the POSIX standard as
well.
A non-interactive shell invoked with the name sh does
not attempt to read any other startup files.
On my system (RedHat), cron executes commands with
Besides the fact that it's off-topic, if it's not worth it, why even bother bringing it up?
the Bush policy will drive stem-cell research, and the future of medice into the hands of biotech giants
I don't follow you totally on this one.  How much federal money were we really talking about here?  More than $300,000,000?  Spread across how many institutions (including biotech giants that are already flush with cash)?  Anyhow, my point is that the money can easily come from other sources than the feds.  The folks wanting the feds to pony up the cash are making a mountain out of a mole hill IMO since when you get right down to it, it's not that much money (yeah, it'd be a lot to you and me, but it's nothing compared to the budget of most any large research University.)  I have any hang ups with the research happening.  I'm just sick of everybody looking to D.C. for a handout and then bitching when they don't get one because it helps to push their fucked-up political agenda.
Uh, that's only if they use federal funds.  If they don't use federal funds there are NO restrictions.
Nice F.U.D.
From Loki's front page...
Will that date slip?  I've no idea nor am I worried.  This is the first time ordering direct from Loki as all my other game purchases (Civ:CTP, Q3, SOF, D3, SMAC, MindRover, Myth II, HG2, Tribes 2 and Terminus) have either been through Tux Games or my local Frys.  I just got confirmation about Rune and "Programming Linux Games" shipping and expect to hear back on my Kohan order as well in the next day or two.  Not that I have any time to play the games before December, but so life goes. :-)
Ok, the site wasn't slashdotted too badly.  I just ordered Rune and the "Programming Linux Games" book.  Halls of Valhalla wasn't available for order yet.  For less than $150, I've got Kohan, Rune and a cool book on the way to my door in a few days...
No, what will save Loki is if you go to their site and order a game or two or three rather than lamenting the fact that they are having financial difficulties.  I ordered Kohan last night directly from Loki and will be ordering Rune and the expansion pack tonight after the site is no longer slashdotted.  The surest way to help Loki is to give them a reason to move some product!
Yet another good reason for me to run RedHat I guess...
But, AFAIK, K-Melon lacks the coolest feature of Galeon -- tabbed browsing!
For local fire, police and roads, why do I need to pay Washington D.C. just to have less of the money come back to my local community?  I'm confused...
but some of that money is responsible for the comfortable life you lead.
No, I'm responsible for the comfortable life that I provide for my family.  I'm more than happy to pay taxes (virtually any other kind of tax that isn't income based) for defense and national infrastructure.  Not all public works are bad.  I would however argue that most are nothing but a waste of my money.  I look at the $40K+ that my wife and I paid in income taxes and marvel at how much better I could have made my own community better with those funds instead of sending them to Washington D.C. and Sacramento.
If the government is going to be providing the service, thanks, but I'd rather do without...
Who pays those taxes?  Oh yeah, that's right, you and me since we are the customers of corporations and other businesses.  I'm all for corporations and businesses to not have to pay taxes as well as stripping their "benefits of personhood" as you put it. (Nice title for it.  I like it...)
He also favors the abolition of Social Security, MediCare
Damn straight, Skippy.  When your social security withholding hits 30% (probably in the next 10-15 years -- your contribution will be 15% and your employers will be 15%) I reckon' you'll change your tune.
Another example of where the Korporate Kompassionate Konservatives want to take us as a country.
Nice.  When you lack something substantive to say you resort to name calling.
Any doubt anymore about who REALLY owns this government?
Given the amount of taxes that I pay, I own a big chunk.  Want to buy my share from me?
The U.S. Constitution guarantees free speech via the First Amendment.  Unfortunately there is no such guarantee of privacy in the U.S. Constituition.  Some people would argue that the Fourth Amendment provides this, but that's not my reading of it.  That said, I'd be in favor of an amendment that would guarantee such a right...
I think you have some facts wrong about who voted for and against the Civil Rights Act.
The House passed the bill 289 to 124, where 80% of Republicans and 63% of Democrats voted yes.
The Senate passed the bill 73 to 27, where 21 Democrats and 6 Republicans voted no.
Who fillibustered the Senate for 14 hours against the passage of the bill?  That's right, it's the Democrate "white n*gger hater" Robert Byrd.
What's your reference for this?  According to the Cox report, the Chinese espionage efforts extended as far back as Carter.  The big difference is that it reports that Carter, Reagan and Bush knew nothing of this.
Unfortunately it's documented that the Clinton administration did.  Despite the Clinton's claims the contrary, his own Secretary of Energy admitted he was repeatedly briefed.  So rather than do something about it he chose to put his head in the sand.
Nastier than McCarthyism? I think not.
Good point.  I was thinking only about the Presidential realm, but yeah, you're right!
The worst thing Clinton did in office was perjure himself to the American people and to Congress about an extramarital affair.
No, the worst thing that President Clinton did was violate the law that he swore to uphold.  Was Iran-Contra wrong?  You bet.  You'll get no apologies from me about it.  That doesn't change the fact that Clinton and his administration were corrupt and no ammount of blame deflection will change that.
A limited redistribution of wealth, based on income, is pragmatic, realistic, and rationally-justified.
We have a fundamental disagreement here I would suspect.  I don't agree with a tax on income.  I would much more vigorously support a sales tax based on the following reasons:
1) It's ultimately fair to everybody since all income is eventually consumed.
2) It's anonymous.
3) It does not require a behemoth organization like the IRS to oversee collections.
4) Everybody pays