I already have a 40/50 city/highway car. I wasn't stupid when I bought my vehicle. I required a 700-mile highway range, as I have averaged nearly 46,000 miles per year since I've moved to my current residence.
Assuming the train could take my 20 min AM/45 min PM drive down to 15 minutes either direction every day, I'd sign up in a heart beat.
Otherwise, at 3.50 a gallon for diesel fuel (no hybrid here), with maintanence costs, I operate at less than 9-cents per mile. Hard to convince me about money savings. Even with the note + insurance I'm operating cheaper than most $200/mo note Kias.
Love my VW Diesel.
The problem is that with this country there is no such thing as moderation.
It's all or none.
I want no coal and all renewables, whatever they be.
Nuclear is not renewable.
The NIMBY crowd are the same ones who won't let me put solar panels on my roof, and keep wind turbines off the Staten Island and the islands off the Carolinas... both of which would do an enormous amount of good.
I live in a nuke county. I fear the day it blows. I trust man's abilities to maintain things about that much. At least solar seems like magic. Hydro just makes f-ing sense, as does wind.
Perhaps we need to re-evaluate how much energy we use.. that might be part of why the alternatives don't work.
After visiting a solar offgrid home (granted the community has a small hydro setup on the creek running thru them), with its 40" Plasma TV and modern kitchen, your argument holds very little weight with me.
The investment will pay for itself after the first 10 years, which I think is the minimal time most people with mortgages are going to be staying in their homes now (previously it was 5-7 years, but those days are long, long gone now).
A large % of gas stations and their corporate back ends have downgraded Vista-equipped hardware because the suppliers of their proprietary software expect Vista support "sometime in mid 2011"....
How many gas stations are there? Assume that 25% have had to upgrade/replace a system. There is your number.
[to date I've had to do this to about 5 boxes for a small chain of only 6 stores].
Good we are familiar with long distance commutes. Usually it's city only folks who get into these arguments.
While the US considers them no environmental threat they can still lead to iron and cobalt contaimination in water streams, which can lead to posioning of children down the road -- or just another filtration step required before we drink the local water resources. It's a potential concern that can't be ignored because it might be "insignificant" -- also, these batteries have a higher risk of exploding and causing fire of thrown away using conventional waste streams, which ironically the US actually recommends.....
I'm not buying a Roadster, so I can't comment on what Roadster buyers will do. But I *am* buying an Aptera, and you better believe I plan to keep it for a long, long time.
Thats a vehicle with a well thought out design (I also can't see it going mainstream with the existing generations, I commend you on your choice). It has no transmission, unlike Volt or Tesla which have transmissions, thus they have fluids. All these vehicles use tires that must be replaced (I'd venture yours cost a lot more than mine, too, for optimal range). You're also going to have lights, wiring harnesses and mechanical failures over time. I don't think that a one time $500 latch failure is going to win over one time buys whose camy has seen $4000 in upkeep over 10 years (in fluids and other required conventional maintenances) due to image. This is America, no one looks at the gritty details (we have to agree on that one).
but I also expect a 600 to 700 mile range
Why? No, seriously, why? Unless you're driving for 10 hours straight without so much as a freaking bathroom break or meal, that makes absolutely no sense.
as I (and most everyone else in my state) drives more than 300 miles per week
Equals 42 miles a day, which is a big whoop in terms of home charging. You'd never have to use a public charger except on long trips. Congratulations -- an EV will *save* you a lot of time on average.
Because I actually use every last drop. In a scenario where you do 42 miles a day to and from work, add another 6 miles for lunch, 10 miles in "other errands" like a trip to walmart or to go see your aunt, and all of a sudden you can't get 4 days worth of charging out of the car, you've got to charge it sooner. Oh wait it uses a 220v, where will I find that? Not all walmarts will have EV charging spots and I bet they will be as easy to obtain as a handicapped spot (during 'normal' hours -- ie before 7pm). The EV only adds headache and worry to my day, 7 out of 10 stations carry diesel. I've yet to run out on any of my trips (to your lovely state of Iowa, Texas, Arkansas, Tennessee, Mississippi, Misouri, South Carolina and as far north as Maryland). I cannot get from North Carolina to Maryland on a charge, I can do that with any other vehicle on the road. That is where the "savings" is nil; I don't want a "commuter" car and a "vacation" car, I have a single vehicle that suits my needs. The electrics can't get to that level, and even if they do it's going to cost much more to maintain them.What about those who don't own a home but rent, or live in a townhome/condo, don't have a garage, and can't plug their car in? These vehicles will require an extensive change in mentality more so than what my car does: shift sooner (if a stick, what I prefer) and pull up to a different pump.
I have just under 85,000 miles on my vehicle. It is less than three years old (from date of manufacture and purchase -- 11/06 purchased 2/07), from what I see I'm looking at a rather expensive battery pack every 2.5 years at my rate (which is not decreasing since business is picking up). How is a $3000 battery cheaper than a $1000 timing belt? I suppose all the money I save over not using fluids would make up for this? Both cars still need tires, transmission serrvices (if talking Tesla), etc.
re: Power consumptipn......Oh? really? Is that why Duke power and Progress Energy are rais
My point is these cars have existed in mass since 1977. I find anything getting less than 500 miles between fueling (whatever the source) to be archaic and non sensible -- regardless of the technology it uses. I fill this car up to three times a week (there are days where 300 miles in a single day, never leaving the tri county area is normal).
An electric in any rural or urban sprawl area (reads: most of america) is basically useless if it can't go beyond the established 'norm' of the ICE/gasoline engine.
I'm also not convinced that any battery (shy the virus batteries being developed by MIT, was it?) is "cleaner" in all consumed time/parts/energy than any Diesel (or gas for that matter) vehicle. Will you keep the Tesla for 10 years? We still use our 1986 VW Diesel Golf -- pushing 575,000 miles -- which to date has had 5 timing belts, a head gasket and a clutch (ONE clutch)... TCO on that vehicle has been really cheap. Same goes for the new Jetta.
I'm not sold on electrics because, as I've said, I don't feel they fit the need. Kudos for them making a friggin sedan (I hate them but they do sell), when it costs under $25k (like both of my Diesels have), I'd consider it, but I also expect a 600 to 700 mile range, as I (and most everyone else in my state) drives more than 300 miles per week, and often more than 40 miles in a single direction to get to work.
I also don't buy the stats that the grid can handle the power. Far too many black outs (NY went dark twice this decade, first time since 63).
Diversify the power grid first. I can promise everyone's rates will go up if 3 to 6% of the cars on the road (that's BMW's total share or so, if you believe Apple) are all electric in the next 3-5 years, we're going to see increased rates as the idea of "off peak" hours goes bye bye.
According to the EPA and my own independant testing, ULSD vehicles are 10% less CO2 output than gasoline, with any percentage of biodiesel over 5% it drops from 30 to 70% -- so using locally produced B100 (if you are so lucky, I happen to live in a state that does) will result in a CO2 footprint of 300 pounds less per 3,000 miles driven compared to the USA's gold standard: the prius.
I also realize that my 2006 VW has an engine whose roots were conceived in 1900 (if not the mid to late 1890s) and fetches between 40 and 52mpg, with no battery assistance, and with proper design, no electronics necessary.
it's call the diesel. probably one of the most misunderstood and enslaved (to big industry) engines on the planet. Electrics won't take off anywhere diesel cars (that reads everywhere BUT the united states) due to their sheer durability and range: 600 to 700 US miles between refuelings, of which, most cars don't exceed 15 gallons (thats well beyond 42MPG average in most instances). The Diesel-electric concenpts are starting out at 70MPG and working towards 100MPG.
Little to no modification (depends on emissions system these days) to run on a variety of biofuels, derrived from plants, algae or the fatty tissues of the dead from a war.
I'll sign up for an electric when more than half our power isn't coming from coal or nuclear, when the grid is intelligent and can shift power where needed safely and securely, and when it takes less than an hour to charge the vehicle capable of over 700 miles between "fuelings." My 100-year old technology has set a rather high precedent for me.
VW has Diesel jettas, the 2009's are not what you want, but a 2006 or earlier model will return 42 to 49mpg, and run on vgetable oil -- either raw (your taking your life in your own hands) or via biodiesel (chemically modified vegetable oil or animal fats). There, problem solved.
I filled my Jetta up at 589 miles and put in 14.0 gallons (42MPG).
These cars have existed since 1977..... What is your excuse now?
Slashdot Mirror
I already have a 40/50 city/highway car. I wasn't stupid when I bought my vehicle. I required a 700-mile highway range, as I have averaged nearly 46,000 miles per year since I've moved to my current residence. Assuming the train could take my 20 min AM/45 min PM drive down to 15 minutes either direction every day, I'd sign up in a heart beat. Otherwise, at 3.50 a gallon for diesel fuel (no hybrid here), with maintanence costs, I operate at less than 9-cents per mile. Hard to convince me about money savings. Even with the note + insurance I'm operating cheaper than most $200/mo note Kias. Love my VW Diesel.
The problem is that with this country there is no such thing as moderation.
It's all or none.
I want no coal and all renewables, whatever they be.
Nuclear is not renewable.
The NIMBY crowd are the same ones who won't let me put solar panels on my roof, and keep wind turbines off the Staten Island and the islands off the Carolinas... both of which would do an enormous amount of good. I live in a nuke county. I fear the day it blows. I trust man's abilities to maintain things about that much. At least solar seems like magic. Hydro just makes f-ing sense, as does wind.
Perhaps we need to re-evaluate how much energy we use.. that might be part of why the alternatives don't work. After visiting a solar offgrid home (granted the community has a small hydro setup on the creek running thru them), with its 40" Plasma TV and modern kitchen, your argument holds very little weight with me. The investment will pay for itself after the first 10 years, which I think is the minimal time most people with mortgages are going to be staying in their homes now (previously it was 5-7 years, but those days are long, long gone now).
A large % of gas stations and their corporate back ends have downgraded Vista-equipped hardware because the suppliers of their proprietary software expect Vista support "sometime in mid 2011" ....
How many gas stations are there? Assume that 25% have had to upgrade/replace a system. There is your number.
[to date I've had to do this to about 5 boxes for a small chain of only 6 stores].
Good we are familiar with long distance commutes. Usually it's city only folks who get into these arguments.
While the US considers them no environmental threat they can still lead to iron and cobalt contaimination in water streams, which can lead to posioning of children down the road -- or just another filtration step required before we drink the local water resources. It's a potential concern that can't be ignored because it might be "insignificant" -- also, these batteries have a higher risk of exploding and causing fire of thrown away using conventional waste streams, which ironically the US actually recommends.....
I'm not buying a Roadster, so I can't comment on what Roadster buyers will do. But I *am* buying an Aptera, and you better believe I plan to keep it for a long, long time.
Thats a vehicle with a well thought out design (I also can't see it going mainstream with the existing generations, I commend you on your choice). It has no transmission, unlike Volt or Tesla which have transmissions, thus they have fluids. All these vehicles use tires that must be replaced (I'd venture yours cost a lot more than mine, too, for optimal range). You're also going to have lights, wiring harnesses and mechanical failures over time. I don't think that a one time $500 latch failure is going to win over one time buys whose camy has seen $4000 in upkeep over 10 years (in fluids and other required conventional maintenances) due to image. This is America, no one looks at the gritty details (we have to agree on that one).
but I also expect a 600 to 700 mile range
Why? No, seriously, why? Unless you're driving for 10 hours straight without so much as a freaking bathroom break or meal, that makes absolutely no sense.
as I (and most everyone else in my state) drives more than 300 miles per week
Equals 42 miles a day, which is a big whoop in terms of home charging. You'd never have to use a public charger except on long trips. Congratulations -- an EV will *save* you a lot of time on average.
Because I actually use every last drop. In a scenario where you do 42 miles a day to and from work, add another 6 miles for lunch, 10 miles in "other errands" like a trip to walmart or to go see your aunt, and all of a sudden you can't get 4 days worth of charging out of the car, you've got to charge it sooner. Oh wait it uses a 220v, where will I find that? Not all walmarts will have EV charging spots and I bet they will be as easy to obtain as a handicapped spot (during 'normal' hours -- ie before 7pm). The EV only adds headache and worry to my day, 7 out of 10 stations carry diesel. I've yet to run out on any of my trips (to your lovely state of Iowa, Texas, Arkansas, Tennessee, Mississippi, Misouri, South Carolina and as far north as Maryland). I cannot get from North Carolina to Maryland on a charge, I can do that with any other vehicle on the road. That is where the "savings" is nil; I don't want a "commuter" car and a "vacation" car, I have a single vehicle that suits my needs. The electrics can't get to that level, and even if they do it's going to cost much more to maintain them.What about those who don't own a home but rent, or live in a townhome/condo, don't have a garage, and can't plug their car in? These vehicles will require an extensive change in mentality more so than what my car does: shift sooner (if a stick, what I prefer) and pull up to a different pump.
I have just under 85,000 miles on my vehicle. It is less than three years old (from date of manufacture and purchase -- 11/06 purchased 2/07), from what I see I'm looking at a rather expensive battery pack every 2.5 years at my rate (which is not decreasing since business is picking up). How is a $3000 battery cheaper than a $1000 timing belt? I suppose all the money I save over not using fluids would make up for this? Both cars still need tires, transmission serrvices (if talking Tesla), etc.
re: Power consumptipn......Oh? really? Is that why Duke power and Progress Energy are rais
My point is these cars have existed in mass since 1977. I find anything getting less than 500 miles between fueling (whatever the source) to be archaic and non sensible -- regardless of the technology it uses. I fill this car up to three times a week (there are days where 300 miles in a single day, never leaving the tri county area is normal). An electric in any rural or urban sprawl area (reads: most of america) is basically useless if it can't go beyond the established 'norm' of the ICE/gasoline engine. I'm also not convinced that any battery (shy the virus batteries being developed by MIT, was it?) is "cleaner" in all consumed time/parts/energy than any Diesel (or gas for that matter) vehicle. Will you keep the Tesla for 10 years? We still use our 1986 VW Diesel Golf -- pushing 575,000 miles -- which to date has had 5 timing belts, a head gasket and a clutch (ONE clutch)... TCO on that vehicle has been really cheap. Same goes for the new Jetta. I'm not sold on electrics because, as I've said, I don't feel they fit the need. Kudos for them making a friggin sedan (I hate them but they do sell), when it costs under $25k (like both of my Diesels have), I'd consider it, but I also expect a 600 to 700 mile range, as I (and most everyone else in my state) drives more than 300 miles per week, and often more than 40 miles in a single direction to get to work. I also don't buy the stats that the grid can handle the power. Far too many black outs (NY went dark twice this decade, first time since 63). Diversify the power grid first. I can promise everyone's rates will go up if 3 to 6% of the cars on the road (that's BMW's total share or so, if you believe Apple) are all electric in the next 3-5 years, we're going to see increased rates as the idea of "off peak" hours goes bye bye.
Where is your super efficient electric? My diesel's parked outside.
According to the EPA and my own independant testing, ULSD vehicles are 10% less CO2 output than gasoline, with any percentage of biodiesel over 5% it drops from 30 to 70% -- so using locally produced B100 (if you are so lucky, I happen to live in a state that does) will result in a CO2 footprint of 300 pounds less per 3,000 miles driven compared to the USA's gold standard: the prius.
I also realize that my 2006 VW has an engine whose roots were conceived in 1900 (if not the mid to late 1890s) and fetches between 40 and 52mpg, with no battery assistance, and with proper design, no electronics necessary. it's call the diesel. probably one of the most misunderstood and enslaved (to big industry) engines on the planet. Electrics won't take off anywhere diesel cars (that reads everywhere BUT the united states) due to their sheer durability and range: 600 to 700 US miles between refuelings, of which, most cars don't exceed 15 gallons (thats well beyond 42MPG average in most instances). The Diesel-electric concenpts are starting out at 70MPG and working towards 100MPG. Little to no modification (depends on emissions system these days) to run on a variety of biofuels, derrived from plants, algae or the fatty tissues of the dead from a war. I'll sign up for an electric when more than half our power isn't coming from coal or nuclear, when the grid is intelligent and can shift power where needed safely and securely, and when it takes less than an hour to charge the vehicle capable of over 700 miles between "fuelings." My 100-year old technology has set a rather high precedent for me.
Best comment ever.
VW has Diesel jettas, the 2009's are not what you want, but a 2006 or earlier model will return 42 to 49mpg, and run on vgetable oil -- either raw (your taking your life in your own hands) or via biodiesel (chemically modified vegetable oil or animal fats). There, problem solved. I filled my Jetta up at 589 miles and put in 14.0 gallons (42MPG). These cars have existed since 1977..... What is your excuse now?