That is why I think $18K to install it is beyond insane...
I just haven't found a reasonable local company...
As for the power itself, $35K works out to about 12 years of my power bills, but even that is too much since a 10kw system will only reduce maybe 40% of my bill.
It is too expensive. At $25K before tax credits, it starts to make sense.
If good panels can be had for less than $17K for the whole kit, of course the cost would come down further.
Maybe other areas have decent competition and suppliers, if the price is lower in other places, I could understand why more people have solar.
But according to the solar association in my city of 250,000, only 150 homes have had solar installed. I've never seen one of them.
No one around here is doing it (well, almost no one)
No, the problem there is that the people asking for that generally don't want that.
It is a lie. They want a ban, seizure, etc.
I'd love to have a conversation about reasonable gun laws, if the left wanted to do so. But they don't. They don't enforce the laws we already have and they want more and more and more.
They never give back where it makes sense to do so.
That is why the right has put their heals in and said no more.
There's a huge difference between owning a bolt-action rifle for hunting or a shotgun for sport-shooting and collecting a bunch of cool-looking modded-out things originally designed for military use.
Ahh, the "evil gun" argument...
But we've always had the "military designed guns"...
And frankly, plenty of hunting rifles hold 5 rounds and are semi-automatic. If you think all hunting weapons are bolt action, you're sorely mistaken.
In my case, I have a two story home that is far enough off the ground that I don't want to be climbing up there myself. I could, but I'd rather not fall.:)
Installing 32 panels up there is really a multiple person job.
I also don't have experience with wiring this type of electricity and while I could figure it out, I don't care to risk my family's safety with something that I'm clearly an amateur at.
So yes, technically I could do it, but this is the sort of thing I'm happy to pay a professional to do. Just not stupid crazy money...
"FlyHelicopters (1540845) has just convinced me guns are not all that dangerous on airplanes," I thought to myself as a smashed my head into a wall, "because some people did some violence with things that weren't guns this one time."
England has far more knife crime than the US does, all things considered...
People kill other people, but honestly not that often, either via guns, or anything else...
Your irrational fear of guns is the real problem... your car is far more likely to kill you...
I would then ask, why did they remain your students?
Why is it that when you see someone you consider to be a problem, you can't do anything about it?
That is the real problem, not guns or no guns.
Explain to me how students are supposed to focus on class surrounded by people packing firearms?
I learned to shoot when I was 8 years old, I went to summer camp, all the kids were shooting guns, we'd line up 30 at a time with our.22 rifles 50 feet away from the targets. We were taught safe gun handling, respect for our weapons and our fellow human beings, and no horseplay was acceptable or out you went.
It never bothered me being around kids with guns when I was a kid, it doesn't bother me today. It is all about respect and knowledge and knowing how to handle the situation.
We don't have guns on planes for a very good reason.
We don't? Pilots carry guns now, and frankly they aren't really a serious risk for the airplane, not as much as you'd think.
The 9/11 hijackers didn't have guns, now did they?
too bad for you. that's the fault then of your local legs, and not you, nor the company.
Wait a min, you're suggesting that the fault of SolarCity not installing here is my local power company not being willing to pay them enough in kickbacks?
Fair enough, but if that is the case, then solar has no future in residential home installs...
Baring the panels being free and tripling efficiency to reduce the number that have to be installed...
The labor simply costs too much. I expect it has more to do with the low install rate and the few installers than anything else.
Your roof probably didn't require an electrician to install, let alone any real expectations to it.
It took a crew of 6+ 2 days to install it, between that and the materials, it couldn't have been cheap... and it was about $14K total, and that was with the insurance company paying for it (I imagine I could have gotten it for less had I been paying out of pocket).
$18K labor to install 32 panels on the roof and some wiring is crazy IMHO...
If you cant DIY it, then give up now as install costs will never go down and will only go up. You are paying for labor and insurance for the installers and those rates go up every year and never ever go down.
Do you honestly think $18K to install a 32 panel solar system is reasonable?
That strikes me as nuts. I'm sure there are some bits and parts needed beyond the $17K of hardware, but lord I didn't pay that much for my whole roof, both labor and materials.
With SolarCity you don't buy the system, you just choose to use them as a service provider and pay them per kw/hr for what they generate. They own the panels and all the other hardware, installation, and maintenance. The upside is you aren't responsible for doing anything other than paying your monthly generation bill. There are two major downsides.
The other downside is that they only install where they get special deals from the local power company, I've talked to SolarCity, they won't install here because I'm a member of a cooperative that only provides a $1,000 rebate for installing solar. The other for-profit companies give much higher rebates.
It's a good thing SolarCity installs the panels for you when you buy them, then.
Sure, if they would install here, but they won't.
I live in the Dallas, TX area, they do install here, except for areas that are served by cooperatives. Only if you're with Oncore or Texas-New Mexico Power Delivery Companies will they install (due to the rebates and deals they give SolarCity).
But this will help the install costs. If you only need 24 panels you will spend less to get it installed and your base costs will go down because you'll need less cabling/racking/etc. If we take the ~18k install costs and divide it by the 32 panels we get ~500 per panel. Only needing 24 panels would save you 4k on the install costs based on that.
Sure, if the install cost worked that way, but it doesn't.
Once you're out on a job, putting up an extra few panels isn't that much work. Getting the job setup in the first place, getting a crew out, getting a permit, wiring it all up, that is the big cost.
This might cut, give or take, $500-1,000 off the install price.
SolarCity won't install here. I've talked to them.
Because I'm a member of a cooperative that doesn't provide big rebates and incentives, they won't have anything to do with it.
When I talked to the man on the phone and provided my zip code and power company, he said they couldn't work with them, they only have "select companies" that they work with.
If the install cost were something like $8K, for a total out of pocket cost of $25K, I'd be interested.
Oh well... as it stands, that probably explains why almost no houses around here have solar. This area could afford it if they wanted to, but at $35K for 10kw of solar, it just makes no sense.
That system has 32 panels, the "smart" inverter, racking, disconnect, etc.
The trick is installing it. The lowest total installed price for that system that I've been able to find is $35K. That strikes me as nuts.
I've contacted multiple companies, I've had 2 of them quote me systems after looking at my roof.
Making the panels a bit more efficient won't cut the price by enough to matter until the install cost comes down. Maybe I should start a solar panel install company.:)
Since the constitution was ratified in 1788 we have lived with guns without this epidemic of anarchist mass shootings.
Maybe it is not the guns, but the society that has changed. Post counter culture, we no longer live in a communal, "we the people" society, but rather a narcissistic, individual, I'm going to get mine society.
Think about what has changed in the past 50 years. We have millions of kids growing up in single parent families, we have millions of people who have rejected community and religion (of all forms), and who have no feeling of respect for their fellow human being.
More guns, less guns, it wouldn't matter, because it isn't the problem. Our society is broken and we don't seem to be willing to admit it and address it.
Slashdot Mirror
Making them on the ground isn't hard, and frankly the racks that hold the panels aren't expensive, it is getting them on the roof. :)
We just don't have any real competition here, there aren't a half dozen companies pushing for business, so the prices aren't reasonable here.
That is why I think $18K to install it is beyond insane...
I just haven't found a reasonable local company...
As for the power itself, $35K works out to about 12 years of my power bills, but even that is too much since a 10kw system will only reduce maybe 40% of my bill.
It is too expensive. At $25K before tax credits, it starts to make sense.
If good panels can be had for less than $17K for the whole kit, of course the cost would come down further.
Maybe other areas have decent competition and suppliers, if the price is lower in other places, I could understand why more people have solar.
But according to the solar association in my city of 250,000, only 150 homes have had solar installed. I've never seen one of them.
No one around here is doing it (well, almost no one)
Sad... we have become what we fought against...
This is no longer the land of the free, home of the brave...
R.I.P USA
Now _that_ reduces panel count enough to lower installation cost.
Perhaps, but not by that much...
How much labor is there in installing one panel next to another, once you're already there and setup for it?
A hundred dollars?
Even if you cut the panel count from 32 to 16, you're only cutting $1,600 off the install cost (and even that might be high).
Sensible gun laws
No, the problem there is that the people asking for that generally don't want that.
It is a lie. They want a ban, seizure, etc.
I'd love to have a conversation about reasonable gun laws, if the left wanted to do so. But they don't. They don't enforce the laws we already have and they want more and more and more.
They never give back where it makes sense to do so.
That is why the right has put their heals in and said no more.
There's a huge difference between owning a bolt-action rifle for hunting or a shotgun for sport-shooting and collecting a bunch of cool-looking modded-out things originally designed for military use.
Ahh, the "evil gun" argument...
But we've always had the "military designed guns"...
And frankly, plenty of hunting rifles hold 5 rounds and are semi-automatic. If you think all hunting weapons are bolt action, you're sorely mistaken.
That is crazy cheap... something doesn't seem right with that, but who knows...
Of course, one has to mount them and hook them up. :)
Well, a few minor things...
In my case, I have a two story home that is far enough off the ground that I don't want to be climbing up there myself. I could, but I'd rather not fall. :)
Installing 32 panels up there is really a multiple person job.
I also don't have experience with wiring this type of electricity and while I could figure it out, I don't care to risk my family's safety with something that I'm clearly an amateur at.
So yes, technically I could do it, but this is the sort of thing I'm happy to pay a professional to do. Just not stupid crazy money...
"FlyHelicopters (1540845) has just convinced me guns are not all that dangerous on airplanes," I thought to myself as a smashed my head into a wall, "because some people did some violence with things that weren't guns this one time."
England has far more knife crime than the US does, all things considered...
People kill other people, but honestly not that often, either via guns, or anything else...
Your irrational fear of guns is the real problem... your car is far more likely to kill you...
While that is true, it won't lower it by much...
Cutting the panel count from 32 to 28 doesn't reduce the cost by more than perhaps a few hundred dollars.
The real cost is in setting the whole thing up, bringing the crew out, wiring it to the house and grid, and setting up the roof in the first place.
Adding or removing 5 panels is trivial once all that is done.
I have had some seriously disturbed students
I would then ask, why did they remain your students?
Why is it that when you see someone you consider to be a problem, you can't do anything about it?
That is the real problem, not guns or no guns.
Explain to me how students are supposed to focus on class surrounded by people packing firearms?
I learned to shoot when I was 8 years old, I went to summer camp, all the kids were shooting guns, we'd line up 30 at a time with our .22 rifles 50 feet away from the targets. We were taught safe gun handling, respect for our weapons and our fellow human beings, and no horseplay was acceptable or out you went.
It never bothered me being around kids with guns when I was a kid, it doesn't bother me today. It is all about respect and knowledge and knowing how to handle the situation.
We don't have guns on planes for a very good reason.
We don't? Pilots carry guns now, and frankly they aren't really a serious risk for the airplane, not as much as you'd think.
The 9/11 hijackers didn't have guns, now did they?
too bad for you. that's the fault then of your local legs, and not you, nor the company.
Wait a min, you're suggesting that the fault of SolarCity not installing here is my local power company not being willing to pay them enough in kickbacks?
THAT is what you went with?
How many mass shootings did they have before that?
Regardless, you don't restrict people's rights because stuff happens that you don't like.
Shall we limit freedom of speech and toss out the first amendment because people say stuff we don't like?
The right to keep and bear arms is a right, not a privilege.
It's not inherently unreasonable.
Fair enough, but if that is the case, then solar has no future in residential home installs...
Baring the panels being free and tripling efficiency to reduce the number that have to be installed...
The labor simply costs too much. I expect it has more to do with the low install rate and the few installers than anything else.
Your roof probably didn't require an electrician to install, let alone any real expectations to it.
It took a crew of 6+ 2 days to install it, between that and the materials, it couldn't have been cheap... and it was about $14K total, and that was with the insurance company paying for it (I imagine I could have gotten it for less had I been paying out of pocket).
$18K labor to install 32 panels on the roof and some wiring is crazy IMHO...
If you cant DIY it, then give up now as install costs will never go down and will only go up. You are paying for labor and insurance for the installers and those rates go up every year and never ever go down.
Do you honestly think $18K to install a 32 panel solar system is reasonable?
That strikes me as nuts. I'm sure there are some bits and parts needed beyond the $17K of hardware, but lord I didn't pay that much for my whole roof, both labor and materials.
With SolarCity you don't buy the system, you just choose to use them as a service provider and pay them per kw/hr for what they generate. They own the panels and all the other hardware, installation, and maintenance. The upside is you aren't responsible for doing anything other than paying your monthly generation bill. There are two major downsides.
The other downside is that they only install where they get special deals from the local power company, I've talked to SolarCity, they won't install here because I'm a member of a cooperative that only provides a $1,000 rebate for installing solar. The other for-profit companies give much higher rebates.
It's a good thing SolarCity installs the panels for you when you buy them, then.
Sure, if they would install here, but they won't.
I live in the Dallas, TX area, they do install here, except for areas that are served by cooperatives. Only if you're with Oncore or Texas-New Mexico Power Delivery Companies will they install (due to the rebates and deals they give SolarCity).
But this will help the install costs. If you only need 24 panels you will spend less to get it installed and your base costs will go down because you'll need less cabling/racking/etc. If we take the ~18k install costs and divide it by the 32 panels we get ~500 per panel. Only needing 24 panels would save you 4k on the install costs based on that.
Sure, if the install cost worked that way, but it doesn't.
Once you're out on a job, putting up an extra few panels isn't that much work. Getting the job setup in the first place, getting a crew out, getting a permit, wiring it all up, that is the big cost.
This might cut, give or take, $500-1,000 off the install price.
It is nice, but not a game changer.
SolarCity won't install here. I've talked to them.
Because I'm a member of a cooperative that doesn't provide big rebates and incentives, they won't have anything to do with it.
When I talked to the man on the phone and provided my zip code and power company, he said they couldn't work with them, they only have "select companies" that they work with.
If the install cost were something like $8K, for a total out of pocket cost of $25K, I'd be interested.
Oh well... as it stands, that probably explains why almost no houses around here have solar. This area could afford it if they wanted to, but at $35K for 10kw of solar, it just makes no sense.
In my area, the cost of the panels is no longer the primary issue.
I can purchase a 10kw system online including all the panels, cables, inverter, etc. for about $17K.
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/...
That system has 32 panels, the "smart" inverter, racking, disconnect, etc.
The trick is installing it. The lowest total installed price for that system that I've been able to find is $35K. That strikes me as nuts.
I've contacted multiple companies, I've had 2 of them quote me systems after looking at my roof.
Making the panels a bit more efficient won't cut the price by enough to matter until the install cost comes down. Maybe I should start a solar panel install company. :)
Since the constitution was ratified in 1788 we have lived with guns without this epidemic of anarchist mass shootings.
Maybe it is not the guns, but the society that has changed. Post counter culture, we no longer live in a communal, "we the people" society, but rather a narcissistic, individual, I'm going to get mine society.
Think about what has changed in the past 50 years. We have millions of kids growing up in single parent families, we have millions of people who have rejected community and religion (of all forms), and who have no feeling of respect for their fellow human being.
More guns, less guns, it wouldn't matter, because it isn't the problem. Our society is broken and we don't seem to be willing to admit it and address it.
if everyone carried guns all the time you'd end up with situations like "road rage" where a silly argument would end up with guns drawn.
No, you're more likely to end up with a very polite society...
Question... what is required for there to be a shooting in the first place?
Answer... a person
---
So perhaps we ban people?
You'll never get rid of the guns, as much as you'd like to. That is clearly your solution, but you're dreaming if you think that'll happen.
because they recognize the reality that their societies, don't have the maturity to handle guns safely.
Ahh... the "you're not really able to take care of yourself, let the government do it for you" nonsense answer...