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SolarCity Says It Has Produced the World's Highest Efficiency Solar Panel
Lucas123 writes: SolarCity, one of the country's leading solar panel makers and installers, today said it has been able to create a product that has a 22.04% efficiency rating, topping its closest competitor SunPower, by about one percent. While the percentages may appear small, SolarCity said the new panels, which will go into pilot production later this month, will produce 30% to 40% more energy with the same footprint as its current panels, and they will cost no more to make.
inquiring minds.....
How much do they cost? I see them offering 335 and 345 watt panels, but no sign of pricing anywhere.
22.04% is not one percent better than SunPower's 21.5%, it's 2.5% better. Alternatively, it's 0.54 percentage points better. It's not the same thing.
You can't shut us down! The Internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas!
Won't the whole planet go dark? Then we'll have to use even more lightbulbs!
In my area, the cost of the panels is no longer the primary issue.
I can purchase a 10kw system online including all the panels, cables, inverter, etc. for about $17K.
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/...
That system has 32 panels, the "smart" inverter, racking, disconnect, etc.
The trick is installing it. The lowest total installed price for that system that I've been able to find is $35K. That strikes me as nuts.
I've contacted multiple companies, I've had 2 of them quote me systems after looking at my roof.
Making the panels a bit more efficient won't cut the price by enough to matter until the install cost comes down. Maybe I should start a solar panel install company. :)
We are on the verge of a revolution in material sciences that will lead to major break throughs in increased power from solar panels, solar skins that coat devices like phones, cars, homes and computers, methods of making things stronger, lighter and using less energy and materials.
Likewise there is a wave of improvements in manufacturing that will tie into this with 3D printing of parts.
On the third hand is coming a revolution in biology.
All of this is made possible by two big things, increases in computational power out of the computer revolution and increases in the number of people who are thinking about these things. Save the world - have more kids, educate them and help make the future brighter.
The new panels produce 30% to 40% more power over the current models, but they cost the same to manufacture -- about .55 cents per watt, according to Bass. The panels, which are 1.61 meters or 1.81 meters in size, depending on the model, will have a capacity of 355 watts each.
. Curiously they don't claim it would cost the same to the users. May be a little profit taking, nothing wrong with that, they need some motivation and some returns to attract investments. Anyway they have competition, they are not the sole manufacturer of some life saving drug or something. Market will rein in the profits at the optimal level. And may be transportation and installation might be a little more expensive? Don't know, but encouraged the cost of manufacturing is same.
No mention of life of the panels.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
They certainly have the worlds most predatory contracts!
Check out SolarCity's business model. No money up front required for the install.
It's like the premium charged for snotty foods at upscale supermarkets. People will lay it.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
As other commentators have pointed out, the install prices these days, compared to the prices of the panels, are insane. The installations have gotten simpler than ever - with microinverters, you literally can go up there and install 1 panel per weekend as the system functions just fine with N number of panel/inverter modules installed. (as long as N is smaller than the number of panels that can fit on your roof)
Anyways, SunPower won't sell you the panels directly. I have seen them available online but only their scratch and dent models with no warranty.
But this will help the install costs. If you only need 24 panels you will spend less to get it installed and your base costs will go down because you'll need less cabling/racking/etc. If we take the ~18k install costs and divide it by the 32 panels we get ~500 per panel. Only needing 24 panels would save you 4k on the install costs based on that.
Liars! I thought you were a funny named city.
Everyone's kind of miserable today up here in Oregon. Nice to read some good news.
Fifty years of Yippie! 1968-2018
If the install cost were something like $8K, for a total out of pocket cost of $25K, I'd be interested.
Oh well... as it stands, that probably explains why almost no houses around here have solar. This area could afford it if they wanted to, but at $35K for 10kw of solar, it just makes no sense.
It's a good thing SolarCity installs the panels for you when you buy them, then.
SolarCity won't install here. I've talked to them.
Because I'm a member of a cooperative that doesn't provide big rebates and incentives, they won't have anything to do with it.
When I talked to the man on the phone and provided my zip code and power company, he said they couldn't work with them, they only have "select companies" that they work with.
Solar City offers you two options - buy the panels outright or lease them. Most people go for the lease option because of the lower upfront cost. I looked at this about a year ago but decided not to get it once I found out that you can't upgrade the panels when newer/cheaper/better ones come along. Whatever you signed up for you are stuck with. No thanks.
But this will help the install costs. If you only need 24 panels you will spend less to get it installed and your base costs will go down because you'll need less cabling/racking/etc. If we take the ~18k install costs and divide it by the 32 panels we get ~500 per panel. Only needing 24 panels would save you 4k on the install costs based on that.
Sure, if the install cost worked that way, but it doesn't.
Once you're out on a job, putting up an extra few panels isn't that much work. Getting the job setup in the first place, getting a crew out, getting a permit, wiring it all up, that is the big cost.
This might cut, give or take, $500-1,000 off the install price.
It is nice, but not a game changer.
It's a good thing SolarCity installs the panels for you when you buy them, then.
Sure, if they would install here, but they won't.
I live in the Dallas, TX area, they do install here, except for areas that are served by cooperatives. Only if you're with Oncore or Texas-New Mexico Power Delivery Companies will they install (due to the rebates and deals they give SolarCity).
... I'm waiting for a panel with 122.04% efficiency.
If you cant DIY it, then give up now as install costs will never go down and will only go up. You are paying for labor and insurance for the installers and those rates go up every year and never ever go down.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Hint you have to use a certified (by the solar panel manufacture aka the last guys that touched it) to get the fed tax credits.
Like most federal tax credits incentives etc it's pork for a corp interest. All you should need is the signoff from the electrical inspector maybe have them do a quick power output test and sign some paperwork. Instead the value of that work gets marked up the same as the tax breaks.
No sir I dont like it.
If you cant DIY it, then give up now as install costs will never go down and will only go up. You are paying for labor and insurance for the installers and those rates go up every year and never ever go down.
Do you honestly think $18K to install a 32 panel solar system is reasonable?
That strikes me as nuts. I'm sure there are some bits and parts needed beyond the $17K of hardware, but lord I didn't pay that much for my whole roof, both labor and materials.
So the main obstacle to US solar is lazy Americans?
On my neighbors house. If they're as good as the rest of their line of electronics, don't expect them to last much past the warranty. And the installers dropped a bunch of wire cuttings all over my driveway, almost got 4 flat tires.
Do you honestly think $18K to install a 32 panel solar system is reasonable?
It's not inherently unreasonable.
That strikes me as nuts. I'm sure there are some bits and parts needed beyond the $17K of hardware, but lord I didn't pay that much for my whole roof, both labor and materials.
Your roof probably didn't require an electrician to install, let alone any real expectations to it.
And chances are the inspector just sight-passes it unless you're in Miami-Dade County. He might not do the same with a solar install.
admancement is fine.
advancement is even better
when you 69.
(there, how's that?)
Was the picture of the factory, here is the massive building, with a massive rooftop, that appears not to have any solar panels on it.
(If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
It's not inherently unreasonable.
Fair enough, but if that is the case, then solar has no future in residential home installs...
Baring the panels being free and tripling efficiency to reduce the number that have to be installed...
The labor simply costs too much. I expect it has more to do with the low install rate and the few installers than anything else.
Your roof probably didn't require an electrician to install, let alone any real expectations to it.
It took a crew of 6+ 2 days to install it, between that and the materials, it couldn't have been cheap... and it was about $14K total, and that was with the insurance company paying for it (I imagine I could have gotten it for less had I been paying out of pocket).
$18K labor to install 32 panels on the roof and some wiring is crazy IMHO...
too bad for you. that's the fault then of your local legs, and not you, nor the company.
next best thing is to break your own association with your current energy company, then pursure a future plan. (yeah, that sucks, catch-22, but don't make your current catch-22 sound like that's what everyone else is going to run into.)
too bad for you. that's the fault then of your local legs, and not you, nor the company.
Wait a min, you're suggesting that the fault of SolarCity not installing here is my local power company not being willing to pay them enough in kickbacks?
THAT is what you went with?
We've had FAR more efficient panels around.
http://solarlove.org/sharp-sol...
Solar City isn't even fucking CLOSE to most efficient.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Fair enough, but if that is the case, then solar has no future in residential home installs...
Why? Because I don't think it's unreasonable that people don't work for free?
That'd cut off a lot of things to be honest.
And beyond that, I don't know your roof, let alone local costs, so all I can say is that it's not inherently unreasonable.
Baring the panels being free and tripling efficiency to reduce the number that have to be installed...
The labor simply costs too much. I expect it has more to do with the low install rate and the few installers than anything else.
Well, if that's the case, and it is possible, then you have a solution waiting for you.
Of course, it might be some other factors as well.
It took a crew of 6+ 2 days to install it, between that and the materials, it couldn't have been cheap...
Say that they get paid 20 dollars an hour. Say 300 dollars each day. That's 2,000 each. But for a relatively simple process with most roofing.
Onerous, to be sure, but routine with rare exceptions. If you were talking a tile or copper roof, you wouldn't even be blinking at the above labor costs.
$18K labor to install 32 panels on the roof and some wiring is crazy IMHO...
It may be a bit more complicated than you think then. The panels aren't just nailed to your existing roof, for example. It often requires a bit of custom work to get them installed, depending on the site complexity.
Now if you give me a whole development being put up, or better yet thousands of them across the country, I could probably get them made at a factory for a lot less. But the most likely candidate for that will be a commercial customer like Wal-Mart, or the US military.
It will always be cheaper to DIY - but you need to weigh the value of your time.
Making the panels a bit more efficient won't cut the price by enough to matter until the install cost comes down.
More efficient means fewer panels, means lower install cost. This small an increment might not even eliminate 1 panel from your system, but the accumulation of these increments means you need way fewer panels than you did 10 years ago.
On another /. story -http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/14/11/26/1925235/jackie-chan-discs-help-boost-solar-panel-efficiency it was mentioned that if the Solar Panel comes with "Jackie Chan" installed
... increase the efficiency of a solar panel by 22% ...
Well.... cucumbers and corn on the cob, perhaps, but good luck getting someone to lay a pineapple or a live lobster. This is by no means a universal solution for snotty food purchases.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
While that is true, it won't lower it by much...
Cutting the panel count from 32 to 28 doesn't reduce the cost by more than perhaps a few hundred dollars.
The real cost is in setting the whole thing up, bringing the crew out, wiring it to the house and grid, and setting up the roof in the first place.
Adding or removing 5 panels is trivial once all that is done.
There are actually 4 options... buy outright, buy financing through them, lease with an option to buy, buy power (lease, no option to buy, lower cost).
And yeah, they told me about the no panel upgrade and that bothered me as well. I have some shade in the area, and it moves around, and in order to get off the grid entirely, a 13% increase in panel efficiency for a given area would fix it. But they will not upgrade your existing panels when more efficient panels become available.
So that sticks me with a 20 year contract with no way to get off the grid.
That's crazy. I installed my own 2.5kw system myself in a few hours. Seriously. I laid it out (bread boarded) on my friends driveway and had all the pieces except the grounding rod hooked up and running in maybe 15 minutes. I guess if people are subsidizing it and the money is there, why not charge that much.
I got an email flyer/advert today from the company that I bought my solar panels and inverter from selling panels at $0.19 per watt. Where I live, 1w of solar will generate (after system losses) $0.24 of electricity per year. Even if its a crappy panel, it will pay for itself in a few months.
So if the solar power plant is unworkable due to inefficiencies, then so is the car.
When your food bill comes from McD and it includes a service charge of $3200 for your Big Mac and fries, do you think "Well, they don't work for nothing!"? Or do you think "What the hell!"?
To put up a 10k system would take four people two days. Base labour, nonspecialist. Their salary would be around $30/hr. 6 hour day, times two, times four, $500. The scaffold hire would be $100 a day or less. The tie to grid needs an electrician, $300. Another day for one person to fit the internals, $200.
All-in, $1200 and three days work.
How do you figure $32k to be right?
Well, a few minor things...
In my case, I have a two story home that is far enough off the ground that I don't want to be climbing up there myself. I could, but I'd rather not fall. :)
Installing 32 panels up there is really a multiple person job.
I also don't have experience with wiring this type of electricity and while I could figure it out, I don't care to risk my family's safety with something that I'm clearly an amateur at.
So yes, technically I could do it, but this is the sort of thing I'm happy to pay a professional to do. Just not stupid crazy money...
That is crazy cheap... something doesn't seem right with that, but who knows...
Of course, one has to mount them and hook them up. :)
The reality is that I have personally seen several probable buyers walk away due to solar lease contract encumbrances, this year. While you're right, tin the present market, another buyer will soon come along, there's no telling what the market will be like in 5 years, 10 years, 15, years, 20 years... But, you can be certain that the solar lease contract will still be there vacuuming money out of your wallet.
On another note, the most common sales tactic for solar installers is the rising cost of electricity. They often cite 5-6% year over year utility cost increases and naturally imply that it's only going to get worse in the future. But, looking at the national averages for the U.S., the price of electric has remained close the same for years. Fuel costs caused some volatility a couple of years ago, but that trend has reversed. I still pay the same 11 cents per kWh that I did 15 years ago.(Suck it California. You too Hippsterlandia)
While that is true, it won't lower it by much...
Cutting the panel count from 32 to 28 doesn't reduce the cost by more than perhaps a few hundred dollars.
One thing I forgot to point out, this article compares the output of these Solar City panels to SunPower, the current most efficient. That is a small margin. But compared to what Solar City currently uses, they're 30-40% more efficient. Now _that_ reduces panel count enough to lower installation cost.
It is crucial that Solar City says they'll cost the same to produce. Although a SunPower installation involves significantly fewer panels, the panels cost so much that the savings is not all that great. But cut panel count by 1/3 while keeping panel price the same, that actually matters.
Now _that_ reduces panel count enough to lower installation cost.
Perhaps, but not by that much...
How much labor is there in installing one panel next to another, once you're already there and setup for it?
A hundred dollars?
Even if you cut the panel count from 32 to 16, you're only cutting $1,600 off the install cost (and even that might be high).
No. The main obstacle is that rooftop solar is hopelessly inefficient
I didn't have experience either. One thing you can do is do the work yourself (like running the wires), then getting an electrician to come in and do the actual connecting, then hire an inspector for $400. My electrician is about $50/hr, but the majority of that time is unskilled grunt work.
I'm not against hiring people, but it really takes so little skill and time and $35k is more than I make in a year and honestly more than the cost of all the rest of the electricity I'll use in my life.
That is why I think $18K to install it is beyond insane...
I just haven't found a reasonable local company...
As for the power itself, $35K works out to about 12 years of my power bills, but even that is too much since a 10kw system will only reduce maybe 40% of my bill.
It is too expensive. At $25K before tax credits, it starts to make sense.
If good panels can be had for less than $17K for the whole kit, of course the cost would come down further.
Maybe other areas have decent competition and suppliers, if the price is lower in other places, I could understand why more people have solar.
But according to the solar association in my city of 250,000, only 150 homes have had solar installed. I've never seen one of them.
No one around here is doing it (well, almost no one)
Make your own racks on the ground. $35K will buy a lot of pressure treated 4x4s and sackrete.
Making them on the ground isn't hard, and frankly the racks that hold the panels aren't expensive, it is getting them on the roof. :)
We just don't have any real competition here, there aren't a half dozen companies pushing for business, so the prices aren't reasonable here.
That installation price is extortionate, UK and Germany panel installations are a fraction of the cost.
Lack of competition, more demand than supply and onerous red tape costs are likely the problem.
Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
Perhaps, but not by that much...
How much labor is there in installing one panel next to another, once you're already there and setup for it?
A hundred dollars?
Even if you cut the panel count from 32 to 16, you're only cutting $1,600 off the install cost (and even that might be high).
No, you have to install the frame to hold the panel, secure it to the roof, waterproof the mounts, do some minimal wiring. There is significant per-panel labor cost.
So if you have 2 guys doing each panel, and it takes 2.5 hours to do each panel (it doesn't, but lets say it does), and you pay them $20/hr, you're at $100 a panel.
Fair enough, double that to $200/hr since the company has to make money.
$3,200 for 16 panels.
Out of $18k install costs, that still isn't much, and these new panels don't cut the panel count in half. :(
I'm honestly not trying to be hard about this, I just don't think the cost of adding one more panel to an install makes THAT much difference.
Regardless, I'm still hoping to hear someone suggest a company in the Dallas area that doesn't charge stupid rates.
An installed cost of $2 per watt would get me really excited about it. The current prices of $3.50 per watt just make no sense.
It appears that you can't just buy these panels at retail. Is that true?
Regardless, I'm still hoping to hear someone suggest a company in the Dallas area that doesn't charge stupid rates.
Different technologies, different areas. In New England contractors are absolutely rapacious with geothermal installs.
Anyway, if you're the least bit handy, google for DIY solar installs. I'm actually considering it myself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Watts per Dollar is meaningless without knowing the average lifespan of the device and the degradation rate.
You have a pretty strange idea how electricity works and how that is relevant for your families safety ... ....
Considering that it is probably right you keep your fingers away from it.
Do also hire an expert to connect a computer to ethernet? After all "patched" and "unpatched" cables might cause concerns
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
You think you're funny... but 15a 120v power wires can burn your house down if not hooked up properly...
Plenty of house fires from people who thought they knew what they were doing...
If we're talking a fire, a single battery could, given the right circumstances, start a conflagration to cause your whole neighborhood to burn down.
And more than a few fires each year are started from light bulbs exposed to flammable materials. Or any number of other hazards. You're neck deep in it already.
Or if we really a want to speculate, a single focused bit of sunlight that just happens to strike the proper place.
Meanwhile, in this case, the more important concern is actually going to be for the line-worker, rather than your own house, for a variety of reasons.
Chasing the wrong target often gets you into trouble.
Your family isn't the guy who will get shocked because your system isn't connected properly to stop feeding into the grid at the wrong time.
That's what is the real concern in the field. Now at the factory, they do worry about all sort of things, but that's nothing you'd concern yourself much with in most cases.
Must be why I see large solar farms with racks on the ground, instead of them building roofs to hold them. Maybe they're on to something.
They might be...
Sadly, most houses have lots of roof and little land... sure, exceptions exist, but not very many of them...