Something else to consider about that 10 years of support...
It is really to the same level and attention that Microsoft provides? Given how many people run Red Hat, plus how many run 10 year old versions, what is the rate of patch releases for that 10 year old version?
Maybe it doesn't need many, but with a small userbase, how would you know?
Why some people think you should be able to buy a piece of equipment for your business, use it for 10 years, and never, ever, EVER have to spend a penny on it, is beyond me.
News flash, ongoing maintenance is something you have to budget for. The building's AC system won't last forever, neither will the computers.
This is one reason why many companies just lease their computers, every 3 years they get new ones and keep them current enough that they don't end up 10 years out of date having to replace everything at once.
I'm sorry, but tell me an easy way for a non-technical business (e.g. a dentist's office) to shut off Internet access in most consumer-grade VMs (VMWare Player, Hyper-V, Win7's VirtualPC, etc.) while keeping network access alive.
Have their computer networking consultant do it for them?
If this is a real business and have a real business need to keep running something on XP this time next year, and don't have the internal technical skills to make it happen, then they'll have to pay for it.
Cost of doing business. HIPPA laws for a dentist office in the US are serious, a data breach due to failure to secure computers could cost them a lot of money in fines and have the state licencing dept breathing down their necks.
My wife is a doctor, HIPPA is serious business and patient data file security is serious business, you spend whatever it costs to make sure you don't screw that up, or you may be out of business.
Well then, frankly, you aren't really a concern of Microsoft then, are you?
If you don't make much money and you're doing this for charity, then collect donations to pay for the upgrades.
Or raise your prices so you can run your business properly.
Or if you can't do that, perhaps it isn't a viable business. Plenty of businesses are really just community service, I get that, but if you can't make it in the economy, then perhaps you don't deserve to remain in business?
But that's the size a that company should have, artificially inflating it with programed obsolecense is a waste of resources for humanity as a whole.
I don't disagree with you in theory, the truth is reality has a funny way of shooting a big hole in that plan.
For example, nothing stops you from creating a web cam company and doing exactly what you describe, except that the company that isn't doing it and selling 100 million web cams can do it for less due to volume, they can sell for less and the average consumer just doesn't think about this as an issue.
Result: you're run out of business.
Is that good for humanity? Ehh, does it really matter? It isn't going to change as long as human beings are... well, human beings.:)
Unless you think we need a law for that... however I'll refer you to the old quote, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."
We've run across cases where a software vendor will say, "don't install anything newer than service pack 2." We handle it by completely isolating these machines from the Internet and disallowing the use of external, user-supplied storage (which most smart admins do anyway, on general principle).
How is this Microsoft's fault and why does everyone keep blaming them?
The fault is with your software supplier that doesn't even support SP3 on XP. Blame them, not MS. Even if MS kept supporting Windows XP, they aren't going to support Service Pack 2, they have required SP3 to be installed for some time now.
So really you're shooting arrows in the wrong direction.
Follow up question: Why can't you run Windows XP in a VM on a new machine? You can firewall the VM from the Internet, run XP SP2 if you want, but have modern and supported hardware.
Why are you running physical 2k and 98 machines instead of VMs?
This is the whole point of VMs, to not have to keep the old hardware around, it can all be emulated in software, and you can run the older OS and firewall it in the VM from the Internet while allowing the actual OS under it to do what it needs to do.
Because that's not profitable. If company X writes windows 7 for old hardware, they can't sell you new hardware as easily.
True, but revenue booked for selling hardware 7 years ago doesn't matter to a company. Revenue booked this year is really what counts.
Mind you, I don't approve of this, I'm merely explaining their rationale.
I understand your lack of approval, but if the company doesn't sell new hardware today, then they won't be in business to write drivers for old hardware anyway.
Look at the sorry state of Creative Labs, once a powerhouse in the business. I still remember when I installed my first SoundBlaster into my 386DX-25... wow, what a difference it made...
Mind you, this was in 1991 when a lot of games had crappy support for it, Adlib was still the standard, but when games used it (looking at you Wing Commander 2), it was amazing.
But those days are over, and have been over for a long time. Once decent sound on the motherboard came out and Windows 95/98 and finally XP did decent enough support for it, Creative Labs was doomed.
Yea, they are still kicking around, but you don't hear much about them anymore.
This entire business has built in obsolesce, the whole industry is designed to have everything replaced every 3-6 years.
We could debate if this is a good thing or not, but it is what it is and it isn't going to change until the pace of technology slows down and companies figure out how to get ongoing revenue from existing products.
Yes, and that $30K new car isn't under warranty after 7 or 10 or 12 years, so while Toyota or GM will "support" it in terms of parts, they aren't free.
Another point to consider is that even the car companies stop making parts at some point for older models, and not always after 15+ years. Some low demand models lose support after 10 years.
My car is long out of warrantee, but if a dangerous factory defect is revealed they will recall and repair the car at no cost to me.
For how long? What period of time is Toyota or GM expected to do this?
Clearly a 1955 Chevy is outside of the recall/support period of GM, if such a defect were to be found now, I highly doubt GM would be required to fix it.
So how about a 1975 Chevy? 1985? 1995?
10 years is probably a reasonable support period for most cars.
Something else to consider... Windows works fine when you don't actually install anything on it. Expecting Toyota to support every aftermarket mod is absurd. Yet we seem to expect Microsoft to fix and support everything broken by third party driver companies, third party software companies, third party hardware companies, etc.
Yes... while government telling us what we can and cannot buy is often a bad thing, in this case, the fact is most people just keep using what they already know, even if it is the worst possible choice.
I'm no "greenie", but even I understand the benefits of moving to LED lights over time, the power saved across the country once everyone makes the move are not small.
One of those, "doing it just yourself makes no difference, everyone doing it does" kinda things.
And I repeat my position, deadly force is a valid response if you come up to me and punch me in the face.
I have no idea if you are going to rob me, kill me, punch me again, maybe you think I'm sleeping with your wife, or perhaps you're insane. I know that if I don't stop you, you may well punch me again and try and kill me.
To quote the great firearms instructor whose name I cannot remember: "Do everything you can to save the other person's life."
Yes, wise words... The guy in Texas who beat the other man to death when he was caught raping his daughter... called 911 to try and save the guy's life, he beat the man until he wasn't a threat, then called for an Ambulance and tried to keep him alive.
That is one reason why it was an easy "no bill" for the Grand Jury, clearly self-defense of a third party, clearly he wasn't trying to murder the guy, he used violence to stop the guy, not to kill him, then he tried to render aid.
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^ It isn't the vote that counts, but who counts the votes...
Man, what a smart post, you deserve a +6 for that!
Are you concerned with the download size? Are you on a metered connection?
Just trying to understand, I'd personally much prefer a single huge file.
It is really to the same level and attention that Microsoft provides? Given how many people run Red Hat, plus how many run 10 year old versions, what is the rate of patch releases for that 10 year old version?
Maybe it doesn't need many, but with a small userbase, how would you know?
Windows 7 is generally better than Windows XP.
Why some people think you should be able to buy a piece of equipment for your business, use it for 10 years, and never, ever, EVER have to spend a penny on it, is beyond me.
News flash, ongoing maintenance is something you have to budget for. The building's AC system won't last forever, neither will the computers.
This is one reason why many companies just lease their computers, every 3 years they get new ones and keep them current enough that they don't end up 10 years out of date having to replace everything at once.
I'm sorry, but tell me an easy way for a non-technical business (e.g. a dentist's office) to shut off Internet access in most consumer-grade VMs (VMWare Player, Hyper-V, Win7's VirtualPC, etc.) while keeping network access alive.
Have their computer networking consultant do it for them?
If this is a real business and have a real business need to keep running something on XP this time next year, and don't have the internal technical skills to make it happen, then they'll have to pay for it.
Cost of doing business. HIPPA laws for a dentist office in the US are serious, a data breach due to failure to secure computers could cost them a lot of money in fines and have the state licencing dept breathing down their necks.
My wife is a doctor, HIPPA is serious business and patient data file security is serious business, you spend whatever it costs to make sure you don't screw that up, or you may be out of business.
If you don't make much money and you're doing this for charity, then collect donations to pay for the upgrades.
Or raise your prices so you can run your business properly.
Or if you can't do that, perhaps it isn't a viable business. Plenty of businesses are really just community service, I get that, but if you can't make it in the economy, then perhaps you don't deserve to remain in business?
But that's the size a that company should have, artificially inflating it with programed obsolecense is a waste of resources for humanity as a whole.
I don't disagree with you in theory, the truth is reality has a funny way of shooting a big hole in that plan.
For example, nothing stops you from creating a web cam company and doing exactly what you describe, except that the company that isn't doing it and selling 100 million web cams can do it for less due to volume, they can sell for less and the average consumer just doesn't think about this as an issue.
Result: you're run out of business.
Is that good for humanity? Ehh, does it really matter? It isn't going to change as long as human beings are... well, human beings. :)
Unless you think we need a law for that... however I'll refer you to the old quote, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."
The card can't do anything, most debit cards have no chips in them, they just have a magnetic strip on them with fixed info, nothing else.
You think it's fine to withhold patches for a 7 year old machine?
How many patches is Apple putting out for their 7 year old machines?
We've run across cases where a software vendor will say, "don't install anything newer than service pack 2." We handle it by completely isolating these machines from the Internet and disallowing the use of external, user-supplied storage (which most smart admins do anyway, on general principle).
How is this Microsoft's fault and why does everyone keep blaming them?
The fault is with your software supplier that doesn't even support SP3 on XP. Blame them, not MS. Even if MS kept supporting Windows XP, they aren't going to support Service Pack 2, they have required SP3 to be installed for some time now.
So really you're shooting arrows in the wrong direction.
Follow up question: Why can't you run Windows XP in a VM on a new machine? You can firewall the VM from the Internet, run XP SP2 if you want, but have modern and supported hardware.
Look at the new Mavericks they just released, it supports a few machines from 2009 (4 years ago), but not everything, and nothing before that.
Need XP? That is what XP mode is for. Need a "real" XP that doesn't know it is on a VM? Then run a full VM.
This is the whole point of VMs, to not have to keep the old hardware around, it can all be emulated in software, and you can run the older OS and firewall it in the VM from the Internet while allowing the actual OS under it to do what it needs to do.
Because that's not profitable. If company X writes windows 7 for old hardware, they can't sell you new hardware as easily.
True, but revenue booked for selling hardware 7 years ago doesn't matter to a company. Revenue booked this year is really what counts.
Mind you, I don't approve of this, I'm merely explaining their rationale.
I understand your lack of approval, but if the company doesn't sell new hardware today, then they won't be in business to write drivers for old hardware anyway.
Look at the sorry state of Creative Labs, once a powerhouse in the business. I still remember when I installed my first SoundBlaster into my 386DX-25... wow, what a difference it made...
Mind you, this was in 1991 when a lot of games had crappy support for it, Adlib was still the standard, but when games used it (looking at you Wing Commander 2), it was amazing.
But those days are over, and have been over for a long time. Once decent sound on the motherboard came out and Windows 95/98 and finally XP did decent enough support for it, Creative Labs was doomed.
Yea, they are still kicking around, but you don't hear much about them anymore.
This entire business has built in obsolesce, the whole industry is designed to have everything replaced every 3-6 years.
We could debate if this is a good thing or not, but it is what it is and it isn't going to change until the pace of technology slows down and companies figure out how to get ongoing revenue from existing products.
Another point to consider is that even the car companies stop making parts at some point for older models, and not always after 15+ years. Some low demand models lose support after 10 years.
My car is long out of warrantee, but if a dangerous factory defect is revealed they will recall and repair the car at no cost to me.
For how long? What period of time is Toyota or GM expected to do this?
Clearly a 1955 Chevy is outside of the recall/support period of GM, if such a defect were to be found now, I highly doubt GM would be required to fix it.
So how about a 1975 Chevy? 1985? 1995?
10 years is probably a reasonable support period for most cars.
Something else to consider... Windows works fine when you don't actually install anything on it. Expecting Toyota to support every aftermarket mod is absurd. Yet we seem to expect Microsoft to fix and support everything broken by third party driver companies, third party software companies, third party hardware companies, etc.
That's just the thing, you want MS to support Windows XP forever, for free.
Or am I mistaken and you're willing to pay $20 per machine, per year, to have MS continue to support it?
If the latter, then never mind my post.
I'm no "greenie", but even I understand the benefits of moving to LED lights over time, the power saved across the country once everyone makes the move are not small.
One of those, "doing it just yourself makes no difference, everyone doing it does" kinda things.
You must have another version of English that I don't use. Because I've read that, and it doesn't say I'm wrong, in fact it says I'm right.
And I repeat my position, deadly force is a valid response if you come up to me and punch me in the face.
I have no idea if you are going to rob me, kill me, punch me again, maybe you think I'm sleeping with your wife, or perhaps you're insane. I know that if I don't stop you, you may well punch me again and try and kill me.
That's actually rather funny... :)
To quote the great firearms instructor whose name I cannot remember: "Do everything you can to save the other person's life."
Yes, wise words... The guy in Texas who beat the other man to death when he was caught raping his daughter... called 911 to try and save the guy's life, he beat the man until he wasn't a threat, then called for an Ambulance and tried to keep him alive.
That is one reason why it was an easy "no bill" for the Grand Jury, clearly self-defense of a third party, clearly he wasn't trying to murder the guy, he used violence to stop the guy, not to kill him, then he tried to render aid.
You are spot on, in all respects, I can find nothing that I disagree with.
I wish you were local, I'd love to do my CCW renewal with an instructor like you.