It's the nature of the job, especially as POTUS. The US simply has too much going on, too much to worry about, to be able to do something like that, and it's that way even in peacetime. It's a temp job with long hours, little to no time off, and with such stress that everyone who has taken it in the last 30 years has visibly aged in the first year or so, regardless of their age taking office. The best you can do is hide away in a familiar place as Bush 42 did, or regulate the office hours tightly as Reagan did. I don't know how Clinton did or Obama does handle it, but whatever their choice, it's probably not going to be enough to prevent them from losing a few years at the ends of their lives.
Sykopomp's post referenced the US, suggesting that tracking users via credit cards is already done. The AC posted that anonymous cards can be purchased in a manner strongly suggestive that he was countering the identification in the US. My reply was based on that.
With that, I am in the US (California to be more specific), and the cards are all over.
It's funny you mention that. Recently, the central government has had to listen to the people. A local official either was or will soon be executed for corruption because of complaints -- even demonstrations! -- on the part of the people in his district. He is not the first, either.
They certainly won't respond as kindly to another attempt to overthrow the government, but they do sometimes have to pay attention to the people's complaints.
What makes you think they've been killing them? They're more available than ever. A few years ago, the easiest way to get them was to go to a local mall to buy them. Now, I can go to the grocery store and get pre-paid Visa, MasterCard, AmEx, and I think Discover, not to mention gift cards for dozens of stores, and some of those gift cards allow me to purchase pre-paid Visa cards. It's a horrible return on investment, but it makes it harder to follow the trail.
Presidents don't get vacations as we think of them. Every day of their "vacation" includes meetings, updates, decisions, calls, and diplomatic messages. The only thing "vacation" means for the president is that he has a little more time to himself that day, insofar as a president can have something like that at all.
Plan for seven hits--the attackers could completely botch one attempt and still be successful.
It's a 4-of-7 recreation set. You only have to knock out four to prevent the key being rebuilt. You also don't have to kill them -- just prevent them from remembering their passwords.
Setting up a net isn't that easy. Aside from the 19,000 "large" items (those over about 10cm), there are tens of millions of smaller items like washers and paint flecks. Let's say there are 50 million such objects between altitudes of 150 miles and 300 miles. That space totals up to 11.7 billion cubic miles for an average about 235 cubic miles per piece of debris. There are, of course, higher densities in some spots, but not enough to make something like this economical.
Additionally, aerogel is some fragile stuff. I know it is, because I have some at home. It came from a polite request to purchase some small, random piece from an aerogel manufacturer about ten years ago, and the person who replied was kind enough to simply put a piece of shop scrap in a plastic box and send it to me (complete with MSDS). Within ten minutes of opening it and despite what I thought was careful handling, I had broken the piece in two, and in the intervening years, it has broken further into about six major pieces and a dozen minor bits. It may be good for capturing micrometeors, but it would shatter if it were hit by a bolt, adding to the debris problem.
As for who gets back the space debris and whatever else is deorbited, the answer should be "nobody." Send it to break up over the Pacific. If a country wants something back badly enough, they can design the important parts to survive re-entry and bring it back on their own, or provide funding for a dedicated retrieval mission.
I am largely in the same thought mode as you, but aren't the contracts that you mention just a piece of paper with a promise that they'll abide by the rules in the contract?
If you sign a contract with an outside provider, they should have to meet certain third-party audit requirements. If you've got PHI, they should be HIPAA-compliant. If they're dealing with credit cards, PCI compliance is mandatory. Individual states may have other requirements which are documented and should be audited by third parties, or by the state.
Apps for Government does help mitigate some of my concerns. Unfortunately, I'm not really certain how it would apply in situations where some mail must be encrypted (as is done where I work) or where mail must be treated differently depending on content, but I also haven't looked at the details of what Google offers. A few other points are around (such as getting the mail back in an Exchange-friendly format should the contract be terminated), but Google does seem to be taking seriously the issues brought up by the governments. If they create the path, I'm sure others will follow suit, and a competitive environment could come about.
That's because you went to the commercial site. Try going to the Snort site, and click on the big "Download Snort" link. I'll even provide the URL here:
I did some math and came up with something like 2.1E20 pounds of thrust. It would either far away or (more likely) shattered to pieces with that much thrust. Doing some other math, I come up with about 1.9E-28 pounds of thrust per photon. That seems more realistic to me.
Based on total force of 1.12mN and assuming a static photon count, that looks like an acceleration of 4E-6 m/s^2, so each day it will pick up a velocity of about 0.3 m/s.
You (and several others in this thread) are the exception. I learned how to use and respect firearms from age 5. My dad was very serious about it when he taught me, and also when growing up. Somewhere along the line, guns just became cool to him, and he lost many of the understandings that he taught me.
I have showed a number of friends the basics of firearms. I have made a point of the most basic of rules regarding loaded status, pointing, trigger control, etc. Muzzle control is so ingrained that even when disassembled, it feels wrong to look down the barrel from the muzzle end to inspect for cleanliness and damage or to point it at open windows or in the direction of another person.
I have some experience from the other side of the barrel, BTW. A classmate from high school carries a scar on his upper cheek from a bullet fired his way. In addition, I have had a gun pointed at me, safety unlocked and finger on the trigger, and I have talked someone down from a suicide where the gun was pointed at the temple. These have only reinforced my views on maturity and training, but have not changed my view of the right to self-defense using firearms.
That last part depends very much on the state's view on locking up guns. In many states, they have to have trigger locks or be in a safe to which the kids don't have the keys. I doubt the parents would be criminally prosecuted for their child exercising self-defense, but they could be sued over the violation by the attacker or the attacker's estate.
Nef's assertion was that I didn't know the law and that possession and ownership was legal for people much younger than 18. My response is simply that the law is not as simple as it was when he was ages 6 and 12.
Bazookas arm at a range greater than most people can throw a grenade, IIRC. They don't work nearly as well when trying to deal with the guy next door, as your attempt may be seen by said guy next door, and he can shoot you with his bazooka before you can shoot him with yours.
According to the CDC Mortality database, in 2006, there were 30,986 deaths by firearm. Of these:
642 were listed as unintentional
107 by handgun
73 by rifle, shotgun, or other larger firearm discharge
462 unspecified)
16,883 were listed as suicide
3,655 by handgun
2758 by rifle, shotgun, or other larger firearm discharge
10,470 unspecified
12,791 were listed as homicide
997 by handgun
768 by rifle, shotgun, or other larger firearm discharge
11,026 unspecified
361 were listed as legal intervention/operations of war (not broken down by type)
220 were listed as undetermined
26 by handgun
23 by rifle, shotgun, or other larger firearm discharge
171 unspecified
It's not as thorough as we'd like, as these are based on people more concerned with saving a life, and bullet trauma is, for the most part, the same from wound to wound, just varying with degree of damage. Someone killed by a.22 Long and someone else killed by a.50AE will both end up listed as handgun, if anything. But the purposes are fairly clear, and roughly in line with what one would expect. I included the breakdown only because someone would likely ask about it.
Anyone that would like to take issue with the suicide numbers should look at Japan, where firearms are essentially forbidden, and where firearm homicide rates are extremely low. The suicide rate is still roughly 2.5 times more than that of the United States. Lacking firearms, they turn to hanging, gas, and especially stepping in front of trains.
For anyone else that would like to look them up, I sorted by Injury Intent, Cause of death, and Age Group, and used the following ICD-10 codes:
U01.4 (Terrorism involving firearms), W32 (Handgun discharge), W33 (Rifle, shotgun and larger firearm discharge), W34 (Discharge from other and unspecified firearms), X72 (Intentional self-harm by handgun discharge), X73 (Intentional self-harm by rifle, shotgun and larger firearm discharge), X74 (Intentional self-harm by other and unspecified firearm discharge), X93 (Assault by handgun discharge), X94 (Assault by rifle, shotgun and larger firearm discharge), X95 (Assault by other and unspecified firearm discharge), Y22 (Handgun discharge, undetermined intent), Y23 (Rifle, shotgun and larger firearm discharge, undetermined intent), Y24 (Other and unspecified firearm discharge, undetermined intent), Y35.0 (Legal intervention involving firearm discharge), Y36.4 (War operations involving firearm discharge and other forms of conventional warfare)
Hollywood itself is starting to get a little better at it. While sounds are still often overstated, a 9mm no longer sounds like a.44 Magnum, and trigger discipline is definitely improving in general. Whenever I watch movies or TV and a gun comes out, my eye immediately goes to the trigger finger. It's becoming much more common to see a finger above the trigger than on it, though by no means is it universal.
While I don't care for the analogies between owning a gun and owning a car (they deal with two different rights and most people use their cars far more than they use their guns), it would be more appropriate to match up the number of deaths due to children owning/driving a car when talking about children owning/possessing a firearm.
A number of states (Minnesota among them, as I note below) allow a minor to possess a firearm when on the property of parents or guardians. That counts as their parents being in proximity. Most states (and the federal government) also have exemptions for agricultural activities.
But for general carry? It's pretty rare, if it exists at all.
I am not a troll. I am, in fact, a supporter of gun rights, own a Glock that I keep for self-defense, and go to the range and clean and oil the gun on a regular basis. I also go shooting on occassion with friends who own shotguns, bolt-action rifles, and assault rifles.
I was pointing out that legally, the minimum age for possession (let alone ownership) is at least 18 under federal law, and several states have laws that mandate higher ages. Title 18 Section 922(x) states
(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile—
- (A) a handgun; or
- (B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun. (2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to knowingly possess—
- (A) a handgun; or
- (B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
A juvenile (defined in Section 922 as anyone under 18) cannot possess or own a handgun, with a few exceptions such as in ranching, target practice, safety courses, and self-defense, and some of these exceptions require that written permission be obtained and carried.
Furthermore, Minnesota statute 97B.021 Subdivision 1 states
Restrictions. (a) Except as provided in this subdivision, a person under the age of 16 may not possess a firearm, unless accompanied by a parent or guardian. (b) A person under age 16 may possess a firearm without being accompanied by a parent or guardian:
- (1) on land owned by, or occupied as the principal residence of, the person or the person's parent or guardian;
- (2) while participating in an organized target shooting program with adult supervision;
- (3) while the person is participating in a firearms safety program or traveling to and from class; or
- (4) if the person is age 14 or 15 and has a firearms safety certificate.
In short, a child of age 12 cannot possess a firearm without a parent or guardian being around or giving explicit permission.
I have a suspicion that gun laws have changed markedly since you were a child.
Children are not allowed to possess a firearm unless in the presence of an adult, and 12-year-old kids in general do not have the judgment necessary to carry one on their own.
My stomach dropped just watching him do the jump. I'd like to think that, had I the training and experience, I could also step off the platform, but looking down on a curved Earth would itself be so mind-numbing, I don't know if I could actually will myself to do it.
Perot got 19% of the overall vote, a little more in some states, a little less in others, but still far higher than any third-party candidate in decades. Exit polls suggested that about 20% of the overall voters would have voted for him if they felt that he had a chance. There was a slim chance at a majority electoral result. Had it been thrown to the House, Perot is very unlikely to have won, though.
He might have gained a plurality (or even a majority) in enough states to get the Electoral College votes required. Highest vote count gets the electoral votes in most states.
I find it more than a little distressing that Jon Stewart provided one of the best and most informative interviews about the economy when he grilled Jim Cramer last year. Stewart himself may not be the most fair interviewer in general, but he was asking questions that a lot of professional journalists were not asking, and Cramer's discomfort at being put on the spotlight was obvious. Unfortunately, the questions that get asked by the pros are usually either softball questions or loaded questions because they're afraid of losing access, and no real information comes out.
During the presidential election, I didn't expect Obama to be able to lay out a complete, 500-page plan on how he planned to turn around the economy. I didn't expect McCain to provide an exact, to-the-day timetable of addressing energy concerns. But in both cases, they repeatedly got away with vague suggestions of how they would handle things.
The press should be asking tough questions, questions that keep the politicians on their toes. The American people will listen to real information if it's presented to them; Ross Perot showed us that. (He could have won the election, given that about 20% of the voters said that they didn't vote for him, but would have if they would have thought that he had a chance, giving him about 40% of the vote and leaving Clinton and Bush with about 30% each.) Instead, we get spoon-fed claptrap, major parties run by fundamentalists, and a growing alienation of the moderate in this country.
If it makes you feel better, sales of those earpieces is on the decline, and they're now considered to be a fashion faux pas in many circles. Thus, their use will probably continue to decline.
The kilogram is defined as the mass of the International Prototype Kilogram. The original definition was that of the mass of one liter of water at the melting point of ice, but there are too many variables for this. How much of the water is made up of isotopes of hydrogen and oxygen? What is the air pressure, since that affects the melting temperature and hence the density of the water, hence the number of molecules in the liter, hence the mass.
Even the IPK is a problem, since its mass varies. There are serious attempts at defining Avogadro's number exactly, which will in turn define the kilogram in terms of a number of carbon-12 atoms. Some of these attempts are through measurements, and some call for simply setting Avogadro's number to an exact value equal to the current approximation.
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It's the nature of the job, especially as POTUS. The US simply has too much going on, too much to worry about, to be able to do something like that, and it's that way even in peacetime. It's a temp job with long hours, little to no time off, and with such stress that everyone who has taken it in the last 30 years has visibly aged in the first year or so, regardless of their age taking office. The best you can do is hide away in a familiar place as Bush 42 did, or regulate the office hours tightly as Reagan did. I don't know how Clinton did or Obama does handle it, but whatever their choice, it's probably not going to be enough to prevent them from losing a few years at the ends of their lives.
Sykopomp's post referenced the US, suggesting that tracking users via credit cards is already done. The AC posted that anonymous cards can be purchased in a manner strongly suggestive that he was countering the identification in the US. My reply was based on that.
With that, I am in the US (California to be more specific), and the cards are all over.
It's funny you mention that. Recently, the central government has had to listen to the people. A local official either was or will soon be executed for corruption because of complaints -- even demonstrations! -- on the part of the people in his district. He is not the first, either.
They certainly won't respond as kindly to another attempt to overthrow the government, but they do sometimes have to pay attention to the people's complaints.
What makes you think they've been killing them? They're more available than ever. A few years ago, the easiest way to get them was to go to a local mall to buy them. Now, I can go to the grocery store and get pre-paid Visa, MasterCard, AmEx, and I think Discover, not to mention gift cards for dozens of stores, and some of those gift cards allow me to purchase pre-paid Visa cards. It's a horrible return on investment, but it makes it harder to follow the trail.
Presidents don't get vacations as we think of them. Every day of their "vacation" includes meetings, updates, decisions, calls, and diplomatic messages. The only thing "vacation" means for the president is that he has a little more time to himself that day, insofar as a president can have something like that at all.
Plan for seven hits--the attackers could completely botch one attempt and still be successful.
It's a 4-of-7 recreation set. You only have to knock out four to prevent the key being rebuilt. You also don't have to kill them -- just prevent them from remembering their passwords.
Setting up a net isn't that easy. Aside from the 19,000 "large" items (those over about 10cm), there are tens of millions of smaller items like washers and paint flecks. Let's say there are 50 million such objects between altitudes of 150 miles and 300 miles. That space totals up to 11.7 billion cubic miles for an average about 235 cubic miles per piece of debris. There are, of course, higher densities in some spots, but not enough to make something like this economical.
Additionally, aerogel is some fragile stuff. I know it is, because I have some at home. It came from a polite request to purchase some small, random piece from an aerogel manufacturer about ten years ago, and the person who replied was kind enough to simply put a piece of shop scrap in a plastic box and send it to me (complete with MSDS). Within ten minutes of opening it and despite what I thought was careful handling, I had broken the piece in two, and in the intervening years, it has broken further into about six major pieces and a dozen minor bits. It may be good for capturing micrometeors, but it would shatter if it were hit by a bolt, adding to the debris problem.
As for who gets back the space debris and whatever else is deorbited, the answer should be "nobody." Send it to break up over the Pacific. If a country wants something back badly enough, they can design the important parts to survive re-entry and bring it back on their own, or provide funding for a dedicated retrieval mission.
I am largely in the same thought mode as you, but aren't the contracts that you mention just a piece of paper with a promise that they'll abide by the rules in the contract?
If you sign a contract with an outside provider, they should have to meet certain third-party audit requirements. If you've got PHI, they should be HIPAA-compliant. If they're dealing with credit cards, PCI compliance is mandatory. Individual states may have other requirements which are documented and should be audited by third parties, or by the state.
Apps for Government does help mitigate some of my concerns. Unfortunately, I'm not really certain how it would apply in situations where some mail must be encrypted (as is done where I work) or where mail must be treated differently depending on content, but I also haven't looked at the details of what Google offers. A few other points are around (such as getting the mail back in an Exchange-friendly format should the contract be terminated), but Google does seem to be taking seriously the issues brought up by the governments. If they create the path, I'm sure others will follow suit, and a competitive environment could come about.
That's because you went to the commercial site. Try going to the Snort site, and click on the big "Download Snort" link. I'll even provide the URL here:
http://www.snort.org/snort-downloads
It's right under the "Source" heading. Not really hard.
I did some math and came up with something like 2.1E20 pounds of thrust. It would either far away or (more likely) shattered to pieces with that much thrust. Doing some other math, I come up with about 1.9E-28 pounds of thrust per photon. That seems more realistic to me.
Based on total force of 1.12mN and assuming a static photon count, that looks like an acceleration of 4E-6 m/s^2, so each day it will pick up a velocity of about 0.3 m/s.
Am I getting this correct?
You (and several others in this thread) are the exception. I learned how to use and respect firearms from age 5. My dad was very serious about it when he taught me, and also when growing up. Somewhere along the line, guns just became cool to him, and he lost many of the understandings that he taught me.
I have showed a number of friends the basics of firearms. I have made a point of the most basic of rules regarding loaded status, pointing, trigger control, etc. Muzzle control is so ingrained that even when disassembled, it feels wrong to look down the barrel from the muzzle end to inspect for cleanliness and damage or to point it at open windows or in the direction of another person.
I have some experience from the other side of the barrel, BTW. A classmate from high school carries a scar on his upper cheek from a bullet fired his way. In addition, I have had a gun pointed at me, safety unlocked and finger on the trigger, and I have talked someone down from a suicide where the gun was pointed at the temple. These have only reinforced my views on maturity and training, but have not changed my view of the right to self-defense using firearms.
That last part depends very much on the state's view on locking up guns. In many states, they have to have trigger locks or be in a safe to which the kids don't have the keys. I doubt the parents would be criminally prosecuted for their child exercising self-defense, but they could be sued over the violation by the attacker or the attacker's estate.
Nef's assertion was that I didn't know the law and that possession and ownership was legal for people much younger than 18. My response is simply that the law is not as simple as it was when he was ages 6 and 12.
Bazookas arm at a range greater than most people can throw a grenade, IIRC. They don't work nearly as well when trying to deal with the guy next door, as your attempt may be seen by said guy next door, and he can shoot you with his bazooka before you can shoot him with yours.
According to the CDC Mortality database, in 2006, there were 30,986 deaths by firearm. Of these:
It's not as thorough as we'd like, as these are based on people more concerned with saving a life, and bullet trauma is, for the most part, the same from wound to wound, just varying with degree of damage. Someone killed by a .22 Long and someone else killed by a .50AE will both end up listed as handgun, if anything. But the purposes are fairly clear, and roughly in line with what one would expect. I included the breakdown only because someone would likely ask about it.
Anyone that would like to take issue with the suicide numbers should look at Japan, where firearms are essentially forbidden, and where firearm homicide rates are extremely low. The suicide rate is still roughly 2.5 times more than that of the United States. Lacking firearms, they turn to hanging, gas, and especially stepping in front of trains.
For anyone else that would like to look them up, I sorted by Injury Intent, Cause of death, and Age Group, and used the following ICD-10 codes:
U01.4 (Terrorism involving firearms), W32 (Handgun discharge), W33 (Rifle, shotgun and larger firearm discharge), W34 (Discharge from other and unspecified firearms), X72 (Intentional self-harm by handgun discharge), X73 (Intentional self-harm by rifle, shotgun and larger firearm discharge), X74 (Intentional self-harm by other and unspecified firearm discharge), X93 (Assault by handgun discharge), X94 (Assault by rifle, shotgun and larger firearm discharge), X95 (Assault by other and unspecified firearm discharge), Y22 (Handgun discharge, undetermined intent), Y23 (Rifle, shotgun and larger firearm discharge, undetermined intent), Y24 (Other and unspecified firearm discharge, undetermined intent), Y35.0 (Legal intervention involving firearm discharge), Y36.4 (War operations involving firearm discharge and other forms of conventional warfare)
Hollywood itself is starting to get a little better at it. While sounds are still often overstated, a 9mm no longer sounds like a .44 Magnum, and trigger discipline is definitely improving in general. Whenever I watch movies or TV and a gun comes out, my eye immediately goes to the trigger finger. It's becoming much more common to see a finger above the trigger than on it, though by no means is it universal.
While I don't care for the analogies between owning a gun and owning a car (they deal with two different rights and most people use their cars far more than they use their guns), it would be more appropriate to match up the number of deaths due to children owning/driving a car when talking about children owning/possessing a firearm.
A number of states (Minnesota among them, as I note below) allow a minor to possess a firearm when on the property of parents or guardians. That counts as their parents being in proximity. Most states (and the federal government) also have exemptions for agricultural activities.
But for general carry? It's pretty rare, if it exists at all.
I am not a troll. I am, in fact, a supporter of gun rights, own a Glock that I keep for self-defense, and go to the range and clean and oil the gun on a regular basis. I also go shooting on occassion with friends who own shotguns, bolt-action rifles, and assault rifles.
I was pointing out that legally, the minimum age for possession (let alone ownership) is at least 18 under federal law, and several states have laws that mandate higher ages. Title 18 Section 922(x) states
A juvenile (defined in Section 922 as anyone under 18) cannot possess or own a handgun, with a few exceptions such as in ranching, target practice, safety courses, and self-defense, and some of these exceptions require that written permission be obtained and carried.
Furthermore, Minnesota statute 97B.021 Subdivision 1 states
In short, a child of age 12 cannot possess a firearm without a parent or guardian being around or giving explicit permission.
I have a suspicion that gun laws have changed markedly since you were a child.
Children are not allowed to possess a firearm unless in the presence of an adult, and 12-year-old kids in general do not have the judgment necessary to carry one on their own.
My stomach dropped just watching him do the jump. I'd like to think that, had I the training and experience, I could also step off the platform, but looking down on a curved Earth would itself be so mind-numbing, I don't know if I could actually will myself to do it.
Perot got 19% of the overall vote, a little more in some states, a little less in others, but still far higher than any third-party candidate in decades. Exit polls suggested that about 20% of the overall voters would have voted for him if they felt that he had a chance. There was a slim chance at a majority electoral result. Had it been thrown to the House, Perot is very unlikely to have won, though.
He might have gained a plurality (or even a majority) in enough states to get the Electoral College votes required. Highest vote count gets the electoral votes in most states.
I find it more than a little distressing that Jon Stewart provided one of the best and most informative interviews about the economy when he grilled Jim Cramer last year. Stewart himself may not be the most fair interviewer in general, but he was asking questions that a lot of professional journalists were not asking, and Cramer's discomfort at being put on the spotlight was obvious. Unfortunately, the questions that get asked by the pros are usually either softball questions or loaded questions because they're afraid of losing access, and no real information comes out.
During the presidential election, I didn't expect Obama to be able to lay out a complete, 500-page plan on how he planned to turn around the economy. I didn't expect McCain to provide an exact, to-the-day timetable of addressing energy concerns. But in both cases, they repeatedly got away with vague suggestions of how they would handle things.
The press should be asking tough questions, questions that keep the politicians on their toes. The American people will listen to real information if it's presented to them; Ross Perot showed us that. (He could have won the election, given that about 20% of the voters said that they didn't vote for him, but would have if they would have thought that he had a chance, giving him about 40% of the vote and leaving Clinton and Bush with about 30% each.) Instead, we get spoon-fed claptrap, major parties run by fundamentalists, and a growing alienation of the moderate in this country.
If it makes you feel better, sales of those earpieces is on the decline, and they're now considered to be a fashion faux pas in many circles. Thus, their use will probably continue to decline.
The kilogram is defined as the mass of the International Prototype Kilogram. The original definition was that of the mass of one liter of water at the melting point of ice, but there are too many variables for this. How much of the water is made up of isotopes of hydrogen and oxygen? What is the air pressure, since that affects the melting temperature and hence the density of the water, hence the number of molecules in the liter, hence the mass.
Even the IPK is a problem, since its mass varies. There are serious attempts at defining Avogadro's number exactly, which will in turn define the kilogram in terms of a number of carbon-12 atoms. Some of these attempts are through measurements, and some call for simply setting Avogadro's number to an exact value equal to the current approximation.