I mean systems which are a webpage, a webservice and a database built by internal folks for a company. Basically bespoke work which does not need to be flexible. A huge amount of this gets done as coders are cheap. If coders become expensive companies will use COTS and cloud based solutions. And rebooting your server can be done remotely as can resetting your password. There's very little that cant be done remotely - its a question of cost. does it make sense to build the systems so that you can do it remotely and pushing the cost of local labor up may change some decisions
Most modern folks are not religious. If they actually believed the Bible or the Quran they would be out killing each other. So given that, I don't really see a reason for singling out Muslims in western society. Those who live and work peacefully and pursue their own religion without pushing it in others' faces I have no problems with. Yeah if someone tried to say food in public cafeteria needs to be halal I would shut them down but I myself do buy Halal meat.I find Halal meat actually more tasty. The way of killing while being more cruel for the animal leads to the blood draining out so it does not have the yucky blood taste. Just goes to show that while noone should be forced to follow a religious practice sometimes it makes sense and non religious people may follow the same as long as you don't force them. For those who want to change western society into a total replica of their home societies I have no sympathies. Every society has a right to exist. Similarly I have no sympathy to imposing Democracy by dropping bombs from 30000 feet. Democracy from 30000 feet does not work.
Any society which tries to tell other societies you should change risks opening itself upto scrutiny which it may not survive. Which is basically why I say Christians should shut up about Muslim intolerance and focus on their own shortcomings.
BTW Fun thought experiment. Hitler used the Swastika - An Aryan symbol commonly used in Hinduism. Today it is pretty much banned which can be a shock to Hindus coming to the US when they decorate their doors with Swastikas. However the KKK used the Cross as their symbol. Lets imagine the cross being similarly being banned or socially shunned.
There are many double standards in western society. Again as I said "Don't invite scrutiny which you wont survive"
Oh Muslims have problems. Just Christians should keep their mouth shut as they have a far more bloodier history of discriminating on the basis of religion. Its built into the religion. Christians believe anyone not a Christian is a heathen and going to hell so needs to be converted. Islam at least has scope for a Dhimmi status where people can live in a Muslim society without converting. As neither Muslim or Christian I say a pox on both your houses. Just because Christians today dont behave like savages doesnt take away that they believe in a savage book burning evangelizing (thats a dirty word) religion that pushed Roman Europe into a 800 year dark age due to the basic religion being anti-science.
And there you go again conflating IT and Programming. IT Programming and it is not that difficult to do. I am a programmer who grew into management. I still miss coding as its way more fun to do than managing IT contractors but most of IT work is make work. It is done by humans because the humans are cheaper than doing a project to automate it.
3 Miles is the customs zone where visas are required. 12 miles is territorial waters. 200 miles is Exclusive Economic Zone. It can be argued that there is no economic activity going on as salaries are paid in home countries and the folks are simply on vacation and using their laptops during vacation. Outside the customs zone no inspections can be done by Dept. of Labor or USCIS.
The market is now global. Try to establish a local monopoly and companies will move offshore. its way easier to move IT work than factory work and factory work already moved. People should just adjust their expectations. Work like IT that can be done from anywhere in the world even sitting in a bunker inside a war zone while a civil war is going on around just does not need a high cost environment like the US. IT work is going to go away. Get used to the idea. And STEMIT. H1B allows some of the IT work to stay onshore and provides an environment where folks can intern and then move on to real STEM work. if there are no IT departments onshore there will be no place to intern and it will be more difficult to go on to do the innovative STEM work
All of these large companies Apple, Google and Microsoft also have low level IT work and that is outsourced to contracting companies like Infosys, TCS etc so they have a frenemy attitude towards the large outsourcers. yes they do get hurt in the lottery when they cant get an H1 for a US PhD who has been working at Microsoft Research on the latest AI tools during his OPT, but they dont go after the OT outsourcers for gaming the lottery as they benefit from it by being able to outsource their non core IT work. The large outsourcers file 4-5 times more applications than they actually need. Basically they file one for every position where they are competing to get the work. In the lottery if they get 1 out of 5 applications they have enough to fill all the positions they are going to actually win.
Moving to a skills/salary based allocation would solve the problem for Zuckerberg and Friends. They would still get first bite at the H1s for their critical hires and the rest could be used by outsourcers who can use it to place cheap folks for the non core IT work done at Apple Google and Facebook.
Its not so simple. Not every software engineer gets paid the same. A graduate out of college may get 60 K and a guy with 10 years experience will get 120K. So the govt recognizes this and has bands Band A 60-80K, Band B 70-90K, Band C 80-100K, Band D 90-110 K, Band E 100-120K.
So now a company actually needs a Band D kind of guy so it puts up an ad with all the qualifications needed however it offers only a Band C salary. Noone bites. They now file an H1B with the Band C LCA get a guy from (say Chile because there has been too much Indian hating onthis board) and gets his H1B approved. Now the company has a Band D guy working at a Band C salary. He is not underskilled. In fact he is overskilled for the salary.
What all the anti H1B shills do not realize is that companies would not do H1Bs to get underskilled folks. Where is the percentage in that? They can get underskilled Americans without the hassles or visa costs. They do H1Bs to get overskilled folks at medium skilled salaries.
You say "keep the rubbish out" You do realize that the least qualified H1B has more education and skills than 50% of the US population. You just called 50% of your fellow citizens rubbish. Elitist much? And who will do the work once these "rubbish" are pushed out. Not the high school graduates who can barely read at grade 5 level or the art majors who couldn't be bothered to take a simple requirement spec without a 2 hour discussion on how it affects human rights in Botswana? If the program is tightened up to only allow top level talent in than the work which needs low level talent (still beyond 50% of the population's capability) will move overseas. This hollowing out of middle level jobs has been going on in USA for a long time because people with middle level capacity expect high level wages and people with economic output worth 2 dollars an hour still expect minimum wage. H1B has been putting a bandage on the problem by preventing some middle level jobs from leaving at the cost of exploiting immigrants (who are willing to be exploited so that their kids get a shot at the American Dream). Note that once a job leaves it never comes back even if the other country becomes rich. Jobs which went to China are not coming back now that Chinese are richer and the wages have risen to a 5 dollar/hr minimum wage. Now the Chinese are installing robots and training their next generation to be robot technicians and using every trick in the book like currency manipulation to hold on to the jobs during the transition. If America wants to keep low level IT jobs till the transition to fully AI driven IT happens H1B is necessary otherwise the transition will happen as US IT->India Based IT->AI based IT with the AI programmers in India.
If you have technical folks , a low cost of living and office space in your area what is preventing you from starting up a company? If guys from overseas can come to this country, not knowing the culture , getting underpaid (as you say) can start up consulting firms (body shoppers as you say) why cant you a native do so? Something is fishy in your arguments.
Or send the company to a ship. Anchor a cruiseliner 3 miles off the coast of San Francisco and have all the foreigners live in the cruise liner. With Movies , restaurants , swimming pools,gyms and personal space more than Silicon Valley apartments as well as no visa hassles, cellphone coverage its like living in America with no taxes. Can always fly in on a medical visa to visit the doctor or have a doctor do ship calls.
Muslims did not genocide when they captured Spain from the Romans. They converted folks from Roman religions to Islam. Some may have been from families recently converted to Christianity. However under Muslim rule both Christians and Jews were able to live as tax paying citizens. However when Aragon and Castille started their pogrom no muslims were left. They had to emigrate, convert or die.
This wasn't even the first famine. The British caused repeated famines through food confiscation in the 300 years of rule in bengal. The British Parliament even discussed that a famine was good as it helped to control the "population problem". Hitler did not invent the term "Final Solution" or "concentration camps". Both were British inventions - one used in India and one in South Africa against the Boers.
If someone wrote something like this about the Jewish deaths people would be on their head like a ton of bricks shouting "Holocaust Denier" I accuse you of being a "Famine Denier"
The difference is Germany lost a war and the victor's version of history was forced down the throats of the next generation. Turkey won its war of inependence and threw the Italian,French and Greek invaders out so Turkey could teach its children its version of history. History is written by the winners. e.g. Churchill starved 14 million Bengalis to death during WW2, Hitler starved 6 million Jews to death. Can you guess who won the war from how much is written about the Holocaust and how much is written about the Bengal Famine?
You do realize Armenians complaining about genocide and ethnic cleansing is rich considering what Armenia is doing in Nagorno Karabakh?
Plus during WW1 many Turks got cleansed from European and Caucasian territories and came and settled in Turkey. Asking the descendants of these Turks to apologize for ethnic cleansing is adding insult to injury. No one has clean hands here. Just move on and live your life and go date that cute Azerbaijani chick.
You do realize that Ottoman Armenian citizens who had been treated fairly by the Ottomans and given the same right as muslim citizens rose up in revolt and collaborated with the invading Russian army. They thought they could finally have their Christian state where they would be free to treat their Muslim neighbors as badly as they wished? (cf. Nagorno-Karabakh). When the Russians left them hanging and the Ottoman state came back to reclaim those areas the Ottoman state's stormtroopers - the kurds (todays darlings) went a little heavy handed and did not care about collateral damage. This cause vast exoduses of civilians and deaths from disease and starvation. Their was no gathering up and shooting like Nazi Poland or Zionist Palestine or even gathering up like Rooseveltian US. It was war. People bet on the wrong side and lost and many of the survivors died fleeing as refugees. The demographics changed with the Kurds taking over most of the Armenian lands. Still not what the public thinks of when they hear the word Genocide
Putin is using the law to claw back these companies by invalidating the previous sales where the board of directors did not do their fiduciary duty and the bought and paid for press is raising a hue and cry about these.
How dare you raise Myanmar. Aung San Suu Kyi is our great Democratic leader. She is the daughter of our even greater late democratic LEADER So what if she is allowing the genocide of Muslims? That is not as important as the fact that under her Myanmar will turn towards the US and away from China. Whats a few pesky Muslim lives when we are fighting the war for democracy? Shame on you!!
I am sure you are glad that Obama was term limited and Trump replaced him. BTW Edogan was term limited as Prime Minister which is why he became President and then did a referendum to move the Presidency from a ceremonial to an executive role
He realized EU was just trying to give him Blue Balls. The Blue state will never let a Muslim majority country join. Heck they wouldnt have let Spain join if the Muslim in Spain had not been conveniently genocided. A spurned lover is the worst enemy. So when are we getting the movie about the Christians Genociding Muslims and Jews out of Spain? Bueller? Bueller?
So how come current US residents were not a concern when allowing unrestricted white migration but becomes one when the migration is from brown or yellow countries?
Slashdot Mirror
Nope we are beginning to see the effect of Trump's electronics ban on Gulf airlines. They are moving orders away from Boeing to Airbus
I mean systems which are a webpage, a webservice and a database built by internal folks for a company. Basically bespoke work which does not need to be flexible. A huge amount of this gets done as coders are cheap. If coders become expensive companies will use COTS and cloud based solutions. And rebooting your server can be done remotely as can resetting your password. There's very little that cant be done remotely - its a question of cost. does it make sense to build the systems so that you can do it remotely and pushing the cost of local labor up may change some decisions
Most modern folks are not religious. If they actually believed the Bible or the Quran they would be out killing each other. So given that, I don't really see a reason for singling out Muslims in western society. Those who live and work peacefully and pursue their own religion without pushing it in others' faces I have no problems with. Yeah if someone tried to say food in public cafeteria needs to be halal I would shut them down but I myself do buy Halal meat .I find Halal meat actually more tasty. The way of killing while being more cruel for the animal leads to the blood draining out so it does not have the yucky blood taste. Just goes to show that while noone should be forced to follow a religious practice sometimes it makes sense and non religious people may follow the same as long as you don't force them.
For those who want to change western society into a total replica of their home societies I have no sympathies. Every society has a right to exist. Similarly I have no sympathy to imposing Democracy by dropping bombs from 30000 feet. Democracy from 30000 feet does not work.
Any society which tries to tell other societies you should change risks opening itself upto scrutiny which it may not survive.
Which is basically why I say Christians should shut up about Muslim intolerance and focus on their own shortcomings.
BTW Fun thought experiment. Hitler used the Swastika - An Aryan symbol commonly used in Hinduism. Today it is pretty much banned which can be a shock to Hindus coming to the US when they decorate their doors with Swastikas. However the KKK used the Cross as their symbol. Lets imagine the cross being similarly being banned or socially shunned.
There are many double standards in western society. Again as I said "Don't invite scrutiny which you wont survive"
Oh Muslims have problems. Just Christians should keep their mouth shut as they have a far more bloodier history of discriminating on the basis of religion. Its built into the religion. Christians believe anyone not a Christian is a heathen and going to hell so needs to be converted. Islam at least has scope for a Dhimmi status where people can live in a Muslim society without converting. As neither Muslim or Christian I say a pox on both your houses. Just because Christians today dont behave like savages doesnt take away that they believe in a savage book burning evangelizing (thats a dirty word) religion that pushed Roman Europe into a 800 year dark age due to the basic religion being anti-science.
And there you go again conflating IT and Programming. IT Programming and it is not that difficult to do. I am a programmer who grew into management. I still miss coding as its way more fun to do than managing IT contractors but most of IT work is make work. It is done by humans because the humans are cheaper than doing a project to automate it.
3 Miles is the customs zone where visas are required. 12 miles is territorial waters. 200 miles is Exclusive Economic Zone. It can be argued that there is no economic activity going on as salaries are paid in home countries and the folks are simply on vacation and using their laptops during vacation. Outside the customs zone no inspections can be done by Dept. of Labor or USCIS.
The market is now global. Try to establish a local monopoly and companies will move offshore. its way easier to move IT work than factory work and factory work already moved. People should just adjust their expectations. Work like IT that can be done from anywhere in the world even sitting in a bunker inside a war zone while a civil war is going on around just does not need a high cost environment like the US. IT work is going to go away. Get used to the idea. And STEMIT.
H1B allows some of the IT work to stay onshore and provides an environment where folks can intern and then move on to real STEM work. if there are no IT departments onshore there will be no place to intern and it will be more difficult to go on to do the innovative STEM work
All of these large companies Apple, Google and Microsoft also have low level IT work and that is outsourced to contracting companies like Infosys, TCS etc so they have a frenemy attitude towards the large outsourcers. yes they do get hurt in the lottery when they cant get an H1 for a US PhD who has been working at Microsoft Research on the latest AI tools during his OPT, but they dont go after the OT outsourcers for gaming the lottery as they benefit from it by being able to outsource their non core IT work. The large outsourcers file 4-5 times more applications than they actually need. Basically they file one for every position where they are competing to get the work. In the lottery if they get 1 out of 5 applications they have enough to fill all the positions they are going to actually win.
Moving to a skills /salary based allocation would solve the problem for Zuckerberg and Friends. They would still get first bite at the H1s for their critical hires and the rest could be used by outsourcers who can use it to place cheap folks for the non core IT work done at Apple Google and Facebook.
Its not so simple. Not every software engineer gets paid the same. A graduate out of college may get 60 K and a guy with 10 years experience will get 120K. So the govt recognizes this and has bands Band A 60-80K, Band B 70-90K, Band C 80-100K, Band D 90-110 K, Band E 100-120K.
So now a company actually needs a Band D kind of guy so it puts up an ad with all the qualifications needed however it offers only a Band C salary. Noone bites. They now file an H1B with the Band C LCA get a guy from (say Chile because there has been too much Indian hating onthis board) and gets his H1B approved. Now the company has a Band D guy working at a Band C salary. He is not underskilled. In fact he is overskilled for the salary.
What all the anti H1B shills do not realize is that companies would not do H1Bs to get underskilled folks. Where is the percentage in that? They can get underskilled Americans without the hassles or visa costs. They do H1Bs to get overskilled folks at medium skilled salaries.
The solution is to only provide welfare to US born not to immigrants. The immigrants' taxes will pay for the US Born's welfare.
You say "keep the rubbish out" You do realize that the least qualified H1B has more education and skills than 50% of the US population. You just called 50% of your fellow citizens rubbish. Elitist much? And who will do the work once these "rubbish" are pushed out. Not the high school graduates who can barely read at grade 5 level or the art majors who couldn't be bothered to take a simple requirement spec without a 2 hour discussion on how it affects human rights in Botswana?
If the program is tightened up to only allow top level talent in than the work which needs low level talent (still beyond 50% of the population's capability) will move overseas. This hollowing out of middle level jobs has been going on in USA for a long time because people with middle level capacity expect high level wages and people with economic output worth 2 dollars an hour still expect minimum wage. H1B has been putting a bandage on the problem by preventing some middle level jobs from leaving at the cost of exploiting immigrants (who are willing to be exploited so that their kids get a shot at the American Dream). Note that once a job leaves it never comes back even if the other country becomes rich. Jobs which went to China are not coming back now that Chinese are richer and the wages have risen to a 5 dollar/hr minimum wage. Now the Chinese are installing robots and training their next generation to be robot technicians and using every trick in the book like currency manipulation to hold on to the jobs during the transition. If America wants to keep low level IT jobs till the transition to fully AI driven IT happens H1B is necessary otherwise the transition will happen as US IT->India Based IT->AI based IT with the AI programmers in India.
If you have technical folks , a low cost of living and office space in your area what is preventing you from starting up a company? If guys from overseas can come to this country, not knowing the culture , getting underpaid (as you say) can start up consulting firms (body shoppers as you say) why cant you a native do so? Something is fishy in your arguments.
Just for curiosity with a CS degree why were you working retail?
Or send the company to a ship. Anchor a cruiseliner 3 miles off the coast of San Francisco and have all the foreigners live in the cruise liner. With Movies , restaurants , swimming pools,gyms and personal space more than Silicon Valley apartments as well as no visa hassles, cellphone coverage its like living in America with no taxes. Can always fly in on a medical visa to visit the doctor or have a doctor do ship calls.
Muslims did not genocide when they captured Spain from the Romans. They converted folks from Roman religions to Islam. Some may have been from families recently converted to Christianity. However under Muslim rule both Christians and Jews were able to live as tax paying citizens. However when Aragon and Castille started their pogrom no muslims were left. They had to emigrate, convert or die.
This wasn't even the first famine. The British caused repeated famines through food confiscation in the 300 years of rule in bengal. The British Parliament even discussed that a famine was good as it helped to control the "population problem". Hitler did not invent the term "Final Solution" or "concentration camps". Both were British inventions - one used in India and one in South Africa against the Boers.
If someone wrote something like this about the Jewish deaths people would be on their head like a ton of bricks shouting "Holocaust Denier" I accuse you of being a "Famine Denier"
The difference is Germany lost a war and the victor's version of history was forced down the throats of the next generation. Turkey won its war of inependence and threw the Italian,French and Greek invaders out so Turkey could teach its children its version of history. History is written by the winners. e.g. Churchill starved 14 million Bengalis to death during WW2, Hitler starved 6 million Jews to death. Can you guess who won the war from how much is written about the Holocaust and how much is written about the Bengal Famine?
You do realize Armenians complaining about genocide and ethnic cleansing is rich considering what Armenia is doing in Nagorno Karabakh?
Plus during WW1 many Turks got cleansed from European and Caucasian territories and came and settled in Turkey. Asking the descendants of these Turks to apologize for ethnic cleansing is adding insult to injury.
No one has clean hands here. Just move on and live your life and go date that cute Azerbaijani chick.
You do realize that Ottoman Armenian citizens who had been treated fairly by the Ottomans and given the same right as muslim citizens rose up in revolt and collaborated with the invading Russian army. They thought they could finally have their Christian state where they would be free to treat their Muslim neighbors as badly as they wished? (cf. Nagorno-Karabakh). When the Russians left them hanging and the Ottoman state came back to reclaim those areas the Ottoman state's stormtroopers - the kurds (todays darlings) went a little heavy handed and did not care about collateral damage. This cause vast exoduses of civilians and deaths from disease and starvation. Their was no gathering up and shooting like Nazi Poland or Zionist Palestine or even gathering up like Rooseveltian US. It was war. People bet on the wrong side and lost and many of the survivors died fleeing as refugees. The demographics changed with the Kurds taking over most of the Armenian lands. Still not what the public thinks of when they hear the word Genocide
Putin is using the law to claw back these companies by invalidating the previous sales where the board of directors did not do their fiduciary duty and the bought and paid for press is raising a hue and cry about these.
How dare you raise Myanmar. Aung San Suu Kyi is our great Democratic leader. She is the daughter of our even greater late democratic LEADER
So what if she is allowing the genocide of Muslims? That is not as important as the fact that under her Myanmar will turn towards the US and away from China. Whats a few pesky Muslim lives when we are fighting the war for democracy? Shame on you!!
I am sure you are glad that Obama was term limited and Trump replaced him. BTW Edogan was term limited as Prime Minister which is why he became President and then did a referendum to move the Presidency from a ceremonial to an executive role
He realized EU was just trying to give him Blue Balls. The Blue state will never let a Muslim majority country join. Heck they wouldnt have let Spain join if the Muslim in Spain had not been conveniently genocided. A spurned lover is the worst enemy. So when are we getting the movie about the Christians Genociding Muslims and Jews out of Spain? Bueller? Bueller?
So how come current US residents were not a concern when allowing unrestricted white migration but becomes one when the migration is from brown or yellow countries?