Well we're not paid and it does take up a lot of time for very little reward, so if they want me quite I'm okay with that. I get the feeling I'm being used as a patsy anyway. In the cynical approach, basically I approach Bob and if he gets mad, but gets the message, the board can ask me to leave. Bob might fixe the system since someone finally told him what the issue was and he's happy the guy that did it is gone. So it seems like a win to me.
The only problem is the board still needs members to chair positions and seeing as how I only stepped up because no one else in the organization would it wouldn't be in their interest to let me go like that, I think it'll make finding new board members that much harder.
Yes, to bad you posted AC, this is exactly what's going on. The other existing board members have voiced their displeasure with the existing system, but told me I needed to be sensitive about it. Is the existing system broken? not necessary it could just be in disarray and maybe just reorganizing the files will be enough to make the system more usable. I just want to find a way to bring it up with Bob that's going to minimize how hurt/defensive he might get.
The only reason I'd like to move away from Bob's system is that if he decides it's time for him to quit and just enjoy doing nothing for awhile no one knows how to use or maintain his system. If he's willing to teach me how to use/maintain it great, but I'm most likely not going to put the amount of time in he does and when I leave who takes it over becomes an issue again.
Although the tone of your post comes across as a little harsh, it's essentially the type of suggestion I'm looking for. I'm just trying to figure out how to approach it under the assumption that this system is his baby. I've been in the position before where I asked to give up a project I spent a lot of time on it's not fun. I don't want to end up hurting Bob's feelings because he's a great guy and I think I can learn quite a bit from him, but not if he thinks I don't appreciate his hard work.
I'd be okay with that. If I ended up as the maintainer, I'd dump everything from 2002 and before, then migrate the remainder to another system. Maybe just organize it into a file server and have the board move to a new document creation system which would ultimately become the new management system.
He's done a great job and convincing him he can let someone else take over would be a great way to get him to move on without hurting his feelings.
He's not paid to do this so it's not in our interest to replace him, but when he does leave something will have to change. I'd rather start the process as I imagine Bob may not want to to this for much longer.
Yours and the parent post are two of the post that make reading this thread worth while. Thanks for you suggestions, this could solve a lot of the issues we're having without actually having to move to a new system and may be an easy way to approach Bob just to get an idea of how open to changes he is.
It's not Bob's fault, it's everyone who didn't say something sooner that is to blame.
I agree 100%. Once I do talk to Bob about his system I'm sure he'll say, "No one said that was a problem, I can fix that". I was looking for suggestions on ways to approach the topic so I would accidentally upset Bob or cause any bad blood. I've been in the position before where I was told that a system I worked on for a long time was being replaced with a Commercial Off The Shelf (COTS) product. It was upsetting because I had a lot of time vested in my project. The difference is that was my job, I wasn't going to just leave. If Bob has similar feelings that I had then it's possible he might just not want to volunteer his time anymore, which would be really terrible because he's a great guy.
I brought up Google docs because the board members don't really live close together so the solution needs to be accessible remotely. I've used Google docs a few several times in the pas to solve some issues and it's worked great, but I'm open to other suggestions including helping Bob to fix the issues with his system. The problem with that is then we still have the issue of when Bob leaves, or I leave who takes up the touch. A COTS product solves that issue by making the system something future board members won't have to maintain, just something they use.
No, the other members of the board told me I needed to be sensitive about it. We had a nice little discussion going in the fire hose, unfortunately my substitution was posted while I was asleep.
I plan on talking with Bob about his system and asking him to give me the tour, since one of the biggest complaints of the other board members is that no one would be able to maintain the system if/when Bob decides he has other things to do and doesn't have enough time to volunteer. It seems many posters took my request for suggestions as I'm a young whipper snapper trying to do away with the old guy. That's not the case. I like Bob and think he's brilliant, it's just everyone shudders when they have to go looking for something and it seems only Bob can create/sort/retrieve documents from his system. So if he leaves tomorrow we have no way of getting documents out of his system and into something we can access them from.
We're not paid for our time on the board and don't work together. We don't really even live or work close together and only meet face-to-face a few times a year so the system has to be something we can all access from anywhere, which is why I was suggesting Google Docs, but I'm open to other suggestions. Even learning Bob's system and helping to improve it to make it more manageable for the other board members.
I wish this story had been posted while I was awake so I could have put a stop to this argument up front. I didn't think paid or unpaid was important in my summary so I left it out, but seeing as how there's several pages of what "not-for-profit" means.
Just to clear things up, my group is unpaid. Bob does all the work for us because he want's to support the group not because he's getting a pay check for it.
Original submitter here, Best suggestion I've read yet!!
I think I may try this approach, Bob likes talking about his system so he may be willing to try and explain it to me from a professional to professional standpoint. I can also point out that he may not want to maintain the system forever so having someone available to take over would keep his "baby" alive. Learning to use his system could prove useful in that if it is a crap system it'll be hard from him to explain how and why he did something. Maybe if he finds himself stuttering and searching for reasons and explications a lot it would be a good time to point out other systems that could supplemented the incomplete or sketchy parts of his system.
"Great people talk about ideas; ordinary people talk about things; small-minded people talk about other people."
--Unknown
It's much harder realizing change is required and deciding it's for the best than it is to continue putting up with the status quo.
Originally I bought a Windows XP laptop that came with a free Vista upgrade, I should have stuck with XP. After the upgrade I started having all kinds of issues with drivers and blue screens, despite the fact that my laptop had a "Vista Ready" sticker on it. So I duel booted with Ubuntu 9.xx for a while, then eventually put the Windows 7 developers preview on. After the preview ran out and MS locked the OS I switched to Linux Mint and just forced myself to use it. After a few months I really felt I had a handle on it and Linux Mint was working way better than windows ever had for me. Then my brother and sister convinced me to start a Minecraft server and I found I could run the server or actually use the machine, but not both. The laptop was going on five years old at that point so I bought a new laptop from System 76 that came preloaded Ubuntu 12.04. So now my old Linux Mint laptop is a Mincraft/Meda server and my new laptop is for work and games.
What I found was when I was conformable doing things a certain way it was difficult to get away from Windows because I ended up having to relearn a bunch of stuff or just boot windows and get it done. Once I finally said, "Ok, no more Windows period" it was darker for awhile, but then everything got a lot easier. Now I use Linux for everything and find that windows doesn't have the tools in place to get things done.
I've heard this "year of the Linux desktop" used quite a bit, but never really from actual Linux users boasting. Normally I hear it from people looking to mock Linux users. I have to say since I gave up using windows in 2010 and moved to Ubuntu and Linux Mint, I've notice a lot more people using variations of Linux. I mean since I've made the switch, my Wife and in-laws have made the switch at my suggestion over buying brand new computers. My father and several cousins and friends I can think of have also made the switch, but I had nothing to do with them switching.
Maybe there won't be defined "This year is the year of the Linux desktop.", but I think it is and will continue to catch on.
I think MS thinks slashdot is a lost cause for them. Most of the posters here recognize the MS FUD when they read it so it ends up getting modded and commented into oblivion. Of course that doesn't stop them from trying, but take the CBC article today for example easily 90% of it is "OMFG!!!! Surface so kewlz, who carz if app store is broken, UNIX/LINX usrz R lozers, LOL!!!!"
There are two or three posts from Linux users commending on how people should consider Linux, and probably about 7% of people complaining about how CBC is pro-apple and never have anything nice to say about Windows.
I'm just glad the first post wasn't another of those "I've been using Windows 8 for x months now and it's so fantastic I've constantly jizzed all over my keyboard and am going to say all kinds of untrue things about how it's soo much better that that linuz and Mac crud blah blah blah".
I don't think they realize all they're doing is making it hard to determine if someone is in fact using windows 8 and is happy with it and what the positive features are or if all positive post concerning it are just paid shrills out there to spread FUD. There frick'n everywhere any forum concerning Win8 has a massive log of people obviously just trying to make sure anything negative about windows is pushed right off the map. And yes I had considered that maybe it's because it's just a good OS, then I remember using the developers preview and watching all the "how windows will succeed" videos thinking, "Are they bat shit crazy!!!?"
To build on this, my Father-in-law is an electrician. Sure maybe he's not overly technical and can barley use a computer, but when he's working he's making $60/hour + materials. I say when he's working, because there's so much work for him he chooses when and who he works for. So I'd argue that he has a much better job than most of the technical people I know.
Trades people should be respected, with out them we wouldn't have buildings to store our computers, power to turn them on, or running water to make coffee with for those late night programming sessions.
I agree with the summary I've observed many co-op students that work under me thumbing their noses at our co-workers. They think because I have a degree I'd be on their side, but I'm not. A piece of paper says you survived university, now a days that's probably living at home with your parents. Most of my co-workers may not have degrees, but self taught with 20+ years of experience will kick a piece of paper in the nuts any day and I'm quick to remind my co-ops of that.
Not to mention that Farming equipment is expensive and takes a long time to recoup the value. I come from a farming community; there use to be 20 farms down in the area I'm from only three major ones remain and they're struggling. The problem is people don't buy local product, I can't blame them. Here in Nova Scotia we only get strawberries once a year and the growing season is short so farmers will charge $5 - $7 a quart for them, but you can by California strawberries from the grocery store for $3 - $5 a quart. Nova Scotia is about as far away from California as you can get and still be in North America. They're bigger, but don't taste as good as locals, however they still taste like strawberries. So the difference in price is really all that matters. My wife makes home made jam every year and when you need 10 quarts of strawberries it's tempting to go cheaper.
Dude, time paradox. If I told myself to find the correct date then I wouldn't have jumped to the wrong date in the first place, and I wouldn't have to tell myself to look up the right date, so I never would have told myself to look up the right date and would have ended up jumping to the wrong date... Universe collapse ensues.
I agree, I changed schools 12 times in the 13 years from primary to graduation and I've had my share of both good and bad teachers. Science was the best if the teacher was enthusiastic and had a good hands on class. However, even in that situation you can't avoid test and test mean needing to know equations, processes, names of cell parts, periodic table, etc... Objective classes can be more difficult than the subjective ones because you need to know the information and it's either right or wrong. Subjective classes can be much easier, epically if you have an easy marking teacher for subjective classes like creative writing, music appreciation, Life studies, etc... So given the option I still think a lot of kids would take the easy route.
somewhere around 20 years ago. It's funny. I have a bad leg, I could still run and jump, but occasionally my leg would give out so I'd be walking and all the sudden it was like there was nothing under my foot anymore. Even with a doctors note I still had to participate in PE and had to just shrug off the occasional fall, but anyone could get out of BIO with a note from their parent.
They didn't fail the classes because their parents didn't want them in the class, failing their kids would have been asking for a raging mob to show up and burn down the school. Forcing their beliefs on and preventing anyone from telling their kids different is why there's such a strong stereotype surrounding people in the south.
This is all just my personal experience and may not extend to all of North Carolina, but NC is in the Bible belt, shortly after we moved there from Nova Scotia, my mother was told how things operated in the community we moved into, which put the fear of God into her (pun intended). So although my family wasn't/isn't religious my siblings and I were expected to attend church. As long as we played along everyone was very friendly, but remotely questioning the lords word would invite some sharp elbows from the crowd. I personally don't care since I don't live there anymore, but I feel bad that so many people are being "forcibly" kept in the dark.
When I lived in Maine I had nearly the opposite experience and people were just mean all round. At least if you pretended to be religious the southerners were really nice.
Slashdot Mirror
Thanks these are great suggestions
Well we're not paid and it does take up a lot of time for very little reward, so if they want me quite I'm okay with that. I get the feeling I'm being used as a patsy anyway. In the cynical approach, basically I approach Bob and if he gets mad, but gets the message, the board can ask me to leave. Bob might fixe the system since someone finally told him what the issue was and he's happy the guy that did it is gone. So it seems like a win to me.
The only problem is the board still needs members to chair positions and seeing as how I only stepped up because no one else in the organization would it wouldn't be in their interest to let me go like that, I think it'll make finding new board members that much harder.
Yes, to bad you posted AC, this is exactly what's going on. The other existing board members have voiced their displeasure with the existing system, but told me I needed to be sensitive about it. Is the existing system broken? not necessary it could just be in disarray and maybe just reorganizing the files will be enough to make the system more usable. I just want to find a way to bring it up with Bob that's going to minimize how hurt/defensive he might get.
The only reason I'd like to move away from Bob's system is that if he decides it's time for him to quit and just enjoy doing nothing for awhile no one knows how to use or maintain his system. If he's willing to teach me how to use/maintain it great, but I'm most likely not going to put the amount of time in he does and when I leave who takes it over becomes an issue again.
Although the tone of your post comes across as a little harsh, it's essentially the type of suggestion I'm looking for. I'm just trying to figure out how to approach it under the assumption that this system is his baby. I've been in the position before where I asked to give up a project I spent a lot of time on it's not fun. I don't want to end up hurting Bob's feelings because he's a great guy and I think I can learn quite a bit from him, but not if he thinks I don't appreciate his hard work.
I'd be okay with that. If I ended up as the maintainer, I'd dump everything from 2002 and before, then migrate the remainder to another system. Maybe just organize it into a file server and have the board move to a new document creation system which would ultimately become the new management system.
He's done a great job and convincing him he can let someone else take over would be a great way to get him to move on without hurting his feelings.
He's not paid to do this so it's not in our interest to replace him, but when he does leave something will have to change. I'd rather start the process as I imagine Bob may not want to to this for much longer.
Yours and the parent post are two of the post that make reading this thread worth while. Thanks for you suggestions, this could solve a lot of the issues we're having without actually having to move to a new system and may be an easy way to approach Bob just to get an idea of how open to changes he is.
It's not Bob's fault, it's everyone who didn't say something sooner that is to blame.
I agree 100%. Once I do talk to Bob about his system I'm sure he'll say, "No one said that was a problem, I can fix that". I was looking for suggestions on ways to approach the topic so I would accidentally upset Bob or cause any bad blood. I've been in the position before where I was told that a system I worked on for a long time was being replaced with a Commercial Off The Shelf (COTS) product. It was upsetting because I had a lot of time vested in my project. The difference is that was my job, I wasn't going to just leave. If Bob has similar feelings that I had then it's possible he might just not want to volunteer his time anymore, which would be really terrible because he's a great guy.
I brought up Google docs because the board members don't really live close together so the solution needs to be accessible remotely. I've used Google docs a few several times in the pas to solve some issues and it's worked great, but I'm open to other suggestions including helping Bob to fix the issues with his system. The problem with that is then we still have the issue of when Bob leaves, or I leave who takes up the touch. A COTS product solves that issue by making the system something future board members won't have to maintain, just something they use.
No, the other members of the board told me I needed to be sensitive about it. We had a nice little discussion going in the fire hose, unfortunately my substitution was posted while I was asleep.
I plan on talking with Bob about his system and asking him to give me the tour, since one of the biggest complaints of the other board members is that no one would be able to maintain the system if/when Bob decides he has other things to do and doesn't have enough time to volunteer. It seems many posters took my request for suggestions as I'm a young whipper snapper trying to do away with the old guy. That's not the case. I like Bob and think he's brilliant, it's just everyone shudders when they have to go looking for something and it seems only Bob can create/sort/retrieve documents from his system. So if he leaves tomorrow we have no way of getting documents out of his system and into something we can access them from.
We're not paid for our time on the board and don't work together. We don't really even live or work close together and only meet face-to-face a few times a year so the system has to be something we can all access from anywhere, which is why I was suggesting Google Docs, but I'm open to other suggestions. Even learning Bob's system and helping to improve it to make it more manageable for the other board members.
I wish this story had been posted while I was awake so I could have put a stop to this argument up front. I didn't think paid or unpaid was important in my summary so I left it out, but seeing as how there's several pages of what "not-for-profit" means.
Just to clear things up, my group is unpaid. Bob does all the work for us because he want's to support the group not because he's getting a pay check for it.
Original submitter here, Best suggestion I've read yet!!
I think I may try this approach, Bob likes talking about his system so he may be willing to try and explain it to me from a professional to professional standpoint. I can also point out that he may not want to maintain the system forever so having someone available to take over would keep his "baby" alive. Learning to use his system could prove useful in that if it is a crap system it'll be hard from him to explain how and why he did something. Maybe if he finds himself stuttering and searching for reasons and explications a lot it would be a good time to point out other systems that could supplemented the incomplete or sketchy parts of his system.
"Great people talk about ideas; ordinary people talk about things; small-minded people talk about other people." --Unknown It's much harder realizing change is required and deciding it's for the best than it is to continue putting up with the status quo.
Yeah, that's how I started out.
Originally I bought a Windows XP laptop that came with a free Vista upgrade, I should have stuck with XP. After the upgrade I started having all kinds of issues with drivers and blue screens, despite the fact that my laptop had a "Vista Ready" sticker on it. So I duel booted with Ubuntu 9.xx for a while, then eventually put the Windows 7 developers preview on. After the preview ran out and MS locked the OS I switched to Linux Mint and just forced myself to use it. After a few months I really felt I had a handle on it and Linux Mint was working way better than windows ever had for me. Then my brother and sister convinced me to start a Minecraft server and I found I could run the server or actually use the machine, but not both. The laptop was going on five years old at that point so I bought a new laptop from System 76 that came preloaded Ubuntu 12.04. So now my old Linux Mint laptop is a Mincraft/Meda server and my new laptop is for work and games.
What I found was when I was conformable doing things a certain way it was difficult to get away from Windows because I ended up having to relearn a bunch of stuff or just boot windows and get it done. Once I finally said, "Ok, no more Windows period" it was darker for awhile, but then everything got a lot easier. Now I use Linux for everything and find that windows doesn't have the tools in place to get things done.
I had to comment on this.
I've heard this "year of the Linux desktop" used quite a bit, but never really from actual Linux users boasting. Normally I hear it from people looking to mock Linux users. I have to say since I gave up using windows in 2010 and moved to Ubuntu and Linux Mint, I've notice a lot more people using variations of Linux. I mean since I've made the switch, my Wife and in-laws have made the switch at my suggestion over buying brand new computers. My father and several cousins and friends I can think of have also made the switch, but I had nothing to do with them switching.
Maybe there won't be defined "This year is the year of the Linux desktop.", but I think it is and will continue to catch on.
"unheard of" or "impossible" comes to mind
I think MS thinks slashdot is a lost cause for them. Most of the posters here recognize the MS FUD when they read it so it ends up getting modded and commented into oblivion. Of course that doesn't stop them from trying, but take the CBC article today for example easily 90% of it is "OMFG!!!! Surface so kewlz, who carz if app store is broken, UNIX/LINX usrz R lozers, LOL!!!!"
There are two or three posts from Linux users commending on how people should consider Linux, and probably about 7% of people complaining about how CBC is pro-apple and never have anything nice to say about Windows.
I'm just glad the first post wasn't another of those "I've been using Windows 8 for x months now and it's so fantastic I've constantly jizzed all over my keyboard and am going to say all kinds of untrue things about how it's soo much better that that linuz and Mac crud blah blah blah".
I don't think they realize all they're doing is making it hard to determine if someone is in fact using windows 8 and is happy with it and what the positive features are or if all positive post concerning it are just paid shrills out there to spread FUD. There frick'n everywhere any forum concerning Win8 has a massive log of people obviously just trying to make sure anything negative about windows is pushed right off the map. And yes I had considered that maybe it's because it's just a good OS, then I remember using the developers preview and watching all the "how windows will succeed" videos thinking, "Are they bat shit crazy!!!?"
To build on this, my Father-in-law is an electrician. Sure maybe he's not overly technical and can barley use a computer, but when he's working he's making $60/hour + materials. I say when he's working, because there's so much work for him he chooses when and who he works for. So I'd argue that he has a much better job than most of the technical people I know.
Trades people should be respected, with out them we wouldn't have buildings to store our computers, power to turn them on, or running water to make coffee with for those late night programming sessions.
I agree with the summary I've observed many co-op students that work under me thumbing their noses at our co-workers. They think because I have a degree I'd be on their side, but I'm not. A piece of paper says you survived university, now a days that's probably living at home with your parents. Most of my co-workers may not have degrees, but self taught with 20+ years of experience will kick a piece of paper in the nuts any day and I'm quick to remind my co-ops of that.
Not to mention that Farming equipment is expensive and takes a long time to recoup the value. I come from a farming community; there use to be 20 farms down in the area I'm from only three major ones remain and they're struggling. The problem is people don't buy local product, I can't blame them. Here in Nova Scotia we only get strawberries once a year and the growing season is short so farmers will charge $5 - $7 a quart for them, but you can by California strawberries from the grocery store for $3 - $5 a quart. Nova Scotia is about as far away from California as you can get and still be in North America. They're bigger, but don't taste as good as locals, however they still taste like strawberries. So the difference in price is really all that matters. My wife makes home made jam every year and when you need 10 quarts of strawberries it's tempting to go cheaper.
And without that revenue from government contracts how do you expect them to keep innovating?
Catering to three year olds seems to be working for them.
Dude, time paradox. If I told myself to find the correct date then I wouldn't have jumped to the wrong date in the first place, and I wouldn't have to tell myself to look up the right date, so I never would have told myself to look up the right date and would have ended up jumping to the wrong date... Universe collapse ensues.
I agree, I changed schools 12 times in the 13 years from primary to graduation and I've had my share of both good and bad teachers. Science was the best if the teacher was enthusiastic and had a good hands on class. However, even in that situation you can't avoid test and test mean needing to know equations, processes, names of cell parts, periodic table, etc... Objective classes can be more difficult than the subjective ones because you need to know the information and it's either right or wrong. Subjective classes can be much easier, epically if you have an easy marking teacher for subjective classes like creative writing, music appreciation, Life studies, etc... So given the option I still think a lot of kids would take the easy route.
somewhere around 20 years ago. It's funny. I have a bad leg, I could still run and jump, but occasionally my leg would give out so I'd be walking and all the sudden it was like there was nothing under my foot anymore. Even with a doctors note I still had to participate in PE and had to just shrug off the occasional fall, but anyone could get out of BIO with a note from their parent.
They didn't fail the classes because their parents didn't want them in the class, failing their kids would have been asking for a raging mob to show up and burn down the school. Forcing their beliefs on and preventing anyone from telling their kids different is why there's such a strong stereotype surrounding people in the south.
This is all just my personal experience and may not extend to all of North Carolina, but NC is in the Bible belt, shortly after we moved there from Nova Scotia, my mother was told how things operated in the community we moved into, which put the fear of God into her (pun intended). So although my family wasn't/isn't religious my siblings and I were expected to attend church. As long as we played along everyone was very friendly, but remotely questioning the lords word would invite some sharp elbows from the crowd. I personally don't care since I don't live there anymore, but I feel bad that so many people are being "forcibly" kept in the dark.
When I lived in Maine I had nearly the opposite experience and people were just mean all round. At least if you pretended to be religious the southerners were really nice.
I'm getting one of those, I hope you're happy with yourself.