Slashdot Mirror
Ask Slashdot: Is Going To a Technical College Worth It?
First time accepted submitter blandcramration writes "I have recently decided to further my education with a technical school associates degree. I am a first quarter student in my third week as an IT student. I have taught myself Python and have been working with computers for over 10 years. We've been learning C++ and though my instructor appears to know how to program, he doesn't really understand the procedure behind the veil, so to speak. In a traditional learning environment, I would rather learn everything about the computer process rather than fiddle around with something until I figure out how it works. I can do that on my own. I think the real issue is I'm not feeling challenged enough and I'm paying through the nose to go to school here. Am I even going to be able to land a decent job, or should I just take a few classes here and move on to a traditional college and get a computer science degree? I'm much more interested in an approach to computer science like From NAND to Tetris but I feel as if I should get a degree in something. What are your thoughts?"
My two centavos:
No, no, and hell no. A technical college is likely not certified, so you will end up with a worthless paper in "fiber optics" or "homeland security" as a major... and have absolutely zero chances of job placement... coupled with student loans that are rapidly accruing interest which can't be discharged, EVER, through bankruptcy. Even a guy gambling his wages away and running up credit card debt can dump that stuff off at the bankruptcy court and walk away a free man.
There used to be a pact: Students would put up with professors and deal with the "game" of getting an education. Once you graduated, then the other part of the deal is that you land a meaningful job, pay your loans back in a couple years, and actually have a meaningful career.
Not any more. The "good" jobs are either owned by people there for 10+ years, or there is a H-1B having them. Management is usually whom is good at the golf course. The ONLY chance of getting anything meaningful these days is an internship where you have to behave like your job interview best for six months so you have a shot at something when you graduate college.
I'd do some market research. A coder or developer is like being a meat packer or a textile worker -- was a good job, now is available for pennies on the dollar from offshore outsourcers. You can pay Tata $10,000 and get more coding done for your dollar than you can with five senior devs that run 100 grand apiece... and to boot, you don't have to deal with the payroll taxes. You also get an actual guarantee of code working as well.
Want to run the school game? Get your B. S. and hit the law schools. Pass the bar, and you have a career for life. You would have to commit a felony or get disbarred. Once you have your bar membership, unemployment is up to you. No, you might not get the Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe senior partner, but you will always have somewhere at some company that is 9-5 and full benefits.
Avoid trade colleges like the plague. They teach you nothing viable, and just take your money... and you have zero prospects of work afterwards.
Avoid any school with a learn by doing methodology. Make sure they teach the theory before you do something.
Most companies or agencies want and only recognize real education institutions. Take the time, do it right & get the paper people want to see.
Sounds to me like you're more interested in _Computer Science_ than programming or "IT".
Maybe you need to reconsider the program you are in, or attend a more serious education institution?
But then by the time I reach Albuquerque, she'll be long gone !!
And I don't know when I'll be back again !!
Leaving !! to go to technical college (or is that, collage?) Maybe I shouldn't go !!
Should I stay or should I go ??
Maybe Rock the Casbah !!
For the money, an Associate's Degree at a Community College would impress me more than an ITT degree, and it would cost you a lot less. At a CC you can study CS or IT from people who know their subjects well, and have a passion to teach.
Don't get me wrong, I think that a lot can be learned from a technical college, and I've met quite a few people who have taught there and know what they're doing, but bang-for-your-buck can 't be beaten at a Community College.
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
It's very likely that it will cost the same or less and will lead to more gainful employeement later.
The point of all the extra non-computer science classes is to teach you how to learn and process new material.
Having a 4 year degree from an accredited and respected school will also serve you well.
Here comes the rub... Most start-ups and even smaller mid-sizes might not care or hold it against you but then if you can impress them now why go to school at all?
Just my two cents from a guy works in the fortune 200. Right or wrong I see good people held back by lack of a 4 year degree all the time.
I'm always amused at the people working for me who command ridiculous (eg, six figure) salaries with absolutely no college education whatsoever, who are for some godforsaken reason impressed with my completely useless A.A.S. in Computer Information Systems.
But...
technical school associates degree
Go with an actual community college rather than a "technical school".
Or consider ignoring the degree crap altogether. Ten years, you say - do you have actual job experience? If not, a degree isn't a bad thing. If you do, it quickly becomes useless, especially if you learn that networking (as in, person to person social stupidity) is far, far more important than any actual talent at doing your job. :p (As horrible as it is - you can always learn on the job, if you have any skill whatsoever.)
I went to a technical college (state accredited, so it counts as a community college) directly after high school, as an alternative to the pricey 4-year universities. I earned an Associate of Applied Science in Networking in the first two years, and an Associate of Applied Science in Telecommunications with one more year of classes, due to overlap in the two programs. Immediately after graduation, I was hired at a nearby university for an open position with their IT team. They interviewed multiple people for the spot, ranging from next to no education to Bachelor's degrees. I was hired immediately after my interview. Granted, this is an entry-level position, but I'm still not necessarily the most impressive candidate.
In short, it all depends on where you want to go with the schooling you take. In the end, it's still a pretty piece of paper saying how much class you sat through, not a direct expression of what you know.
- and it's stuff you could do on your own - then it's already not worth it. If you're capable of learning it on your, which it seems you are, then my suggestion would be to put that money toward self-teaching, and then taking certification tests. No one will give a rat's ass that you have an associate's degree in IT from a for-profit technical school, but they'll drool all over your resume if you put just one semester's worth of tuition towards stuff like the CCNA or the MCSA.
Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
The Nand2Tetris is a great resource and I am working through it myself. I wish there was something like this available when I started college 20 years ago. The start of our instruction centered around a variable, then loops, data types, etc. I assume it's because students could related to variables through Algebra. It worked well enough though.
Don't go to a technical school. Go to a state sponsored 4 year university. They're cheaper, better value, and your professors, if you impress them, have some really good in's into hiring companies.
Get your foundation there. Understand *why* companies are willing to pay you 6 figures. Understand the value of scalability and maintainability. Understand how to build a proper ERD. Understand your data structures and why coding something one way is inefficient and doing it another way will make it 1000 times faster. Become an engineer, not a mechanic.
There is one point in understanding a machine. There is another point in making use of a machine. And there is a point in getting paid for one or both.
The CS degree doesnt necessarily buy you the network to achieve the latter point. Employers are interested in solving a certain set of problems with as less money and time as possible, which renders education to a checklist-item to stay conform to standards. Depending on the kind of job you want to take it is more or less important to have it checked. There may be standardized jobs, but there are no standardized problems...
If you want to learn the behind the scenes parts of the language and the computer, get a BS in CS or CE. It will take a few more years, but your earning potential will be much higher than with a two year degree. You can learn all of that on your own, but it is difficult, and that piece of paper will get your resume in the door more easily than trying to explain autodidacticism to an HR drone.
But never stop learning, whether it be through tinkering, online stuff like the NAND-Tetris course, or formal, for-credit courses.
Unemployment amongst recent law school graduates is the worst it's been in history, and there is no sign of that changing. I've worked in the legal industry for a long time now, and it's ugly. I wouldn't wanna be someone with a law school loan right now. http://chronicle.com/article/Unemployment-Among-Recent-Law/132189/ etc.
It's really rare to go to a technical college for CS-related stuff and have it work out. The entire concept has been sullied beyond redemption by the ITT's and Devry's of the world. The best bet, money wise, it to take your first 2 years at community college, get all your prereqs like History and Calculus and CS101 out of the way for cheap. Then transfer to a traditional state 4-year for the last two years, even if its just a satellite campus. It's going to be much more expensive, and more challenging than CC, but you will hopefully end up with knowledgeable professors right when you need them, and after 50% of the class has dropped for lack of interest or plain immaturity. Also do your best to work with the school and line up an internship during your summer break between 3rd and 4th year. You'll have a degree that helps your resume instead of hinders it, a token amount of real world experience, and spend a bit over half as much money as just going straight to the 4-year.
--The universe will not be altered by forum threads, even those which are very wry. --Tycho Brahe (Penny Arcade)
I'm a high school drop out with a 6 figure income as a software developer.
The overall quality of instruction and graduates in many of these tech schools is often pretty low. Technical College not only costs more than Community College, but is an indication that you didn't have the academic chops to get through Community College. I can tell you how I would stack my resume pile if I was hiring and all that hr was providing was a brief summary: Experience+College, Experience (no degree), Self-taught limited experience, College Grad (no experience), Technical Trade School, No apparent Qualifications. Self study, some certifications, and anything you can do to demonstrate competency will put you ahead of the Trade School Graduate and at least equal to the no-experience college grad. Do it on your own or go to a legitimate college that fits your budget.
minds, get scrambled like eggs, abused and erased. Hard Hearted Alice is who you want to see.
Do a great job where you are that shows you can tackle a 2 year project and achieve great results.
Nose your way into doing extracurricular activity you are interested in with a professor or private programming somehow, someway.
You will never stop learning, and it is impossible to get more than a good introduction in 2-4 years so go for it. You never know where you will eventually wind up, so get everything you can in training at school.
I personally went that path so I can tell you that If you have better options then take the better option. However, where I lived 15 years ago if you wanted a Tech degree of any value you wouldn't have any real options. I took the tech school path only because the only real College that I could afford locally had a horrible reputation at putting out CS Majors. They were in the process of building a new Engineering department and I wasn't interested in being apart of their transition from a bad department to a good department. So I went to the Local ITT school only so I could get a piece of paper saying I could do the things I could already do. If I were to do it again I would actually choose the Local College and get a real CS degree, but at the time I wouldn't touch that school with a 10 foot poll.
CS is the way to go. I tried to do what you are doing because it was easier, but there is no easy way out. My curiosity got the better of me and at 30 I went to a university. 7 years later I got a PhD and am now a professor at a univerisity and doing really fun research on computer language design. It is worth the effort by far.
The hardnosed way to think about this, leaving aside any questions of personal satisfaction, is this:
A degree is something that you put time and money into, and out of which you get an credential and (ostensibly) a skillset. The credential and the skillset then open up larger opportunities for you in the future leading to a job, or better jobs, more money, more interesting assignments, etc. The fundamental question is, are you going to get more out of the degree than you put in it?
This is a question which only you can answer for yourself because you know your skillset, you know your job performance, and you know your ambitions.
But with the description you've given me-- ten years of work experience and a skillset that may include much of what you're being taught, vs an associates degree-- my guess is... probably not. With a BS, it's a little more ambiguous-- I know some folks with no degree at all who have risen pretty high on their totem poles, but my gut tells me they are the exception rather than the rule. Where I work, if you don't have at least a BS, you need not even apply. To complete the spectrum, an MS is usually a degree that makes financial sense in the long run, and often something you can get an employer to pay for if you're diligent and talented. And a PhD usually *doesn't* make financial sense, and is reserved for people who love a subject to the point of personal masochism.
(Full disclosure: I am working on a PhD. I am a masochist by definition.)
Private Colleges will fuck you over. I'm serious. You will get a lower quality of instruction from a place like ITT as opposed to a Public college. I am in networking, but i have met Private College Graduates who cannot subnet. DO NOT attend a private technical school, they will screw you six ways to Tuesday.
In a traditional learning environment, I would rather learn everything about the computer process rather than fiddle around with something until I figure out how it works.
If fiddling around is good enough for your parents then it's good enough for you.
No. Everyone else will have real degrees and look down upon you. They'll wonder why you did it and why you wasted all that money.
Don't marry yourself to the curriculum that you are provided by the school. Their curriculum is often a good starting point, but it should not be the end point. Completing your school assignments is the bare minimum, reach beyond. Take the initiative and get involved in some projects that you are interested in. Look into areas that interest you. If you want to code, look for a coding community or project that you can become a part of. You may not be able to do much at first, but you can get involved in small ways and actually learn how it is done in the field and not just from an academic perspective.
Make sure that you build your resume with more than just a degree. The piece of paper that you get from school often says that you know something. The bulk of your resume should show that you can DO something. Can you work with others? Can you write code for a real world project? Can you debug? Can you make a meaningful contribution to a project. Businesses will hire you for what you can do, and less for what you know.
A technical college is good if you want to pick up a skilled trade, but from what you said in your post it might be better to go to a traditional college, community or otherwise. As far as getting a job goes, you need to consider the reputation of the school that you graduate from because that is something many companies consider when reviewing applicants. A good way to impress prospective employers as a CS or IT grad is to have some tangible project to tell them about or better yet show them.
www.apus.edu is a wonderful accredited school that pegs tuition to military reimbursement rates.
My entire MBA experience has been great, and will cost me about $12K
You can test out of a LOT of what you already know, and focus on core classes you want to learn in depth.
Their CS classes and their Networking and Security program are awesome.
No reason for books to be 200+ and wasteful courses for you to take and paying $50k+ for piece of paper. I think they are all ridiculous! Some tech schools aren't that bad, make sure they are credited so you can transfer credits if needed. If your looking for a trade like Welding, Culinary, etc you get a degree at the end and have transferrable credits and cheaper than other schools i see no problem with Tech schools.
Just make sure that the credits at the Community College will be accepted at university. It would be a good idea to contact some of the Universities you make wish to go to complete your 4yr degree to confirm they will accept class credits from an Associate\Community College. Good idea to seek an internship (early and often if you can) so you can include some work experience when you finish up. Avoid accumulating Student load Debt. It will eat you alive later on.
Another idea might be to write apps that are published on the Appstore. This will provide you some experience with modern technology and perhaps some income.
I graduated with a CS degree and I had to self teach myself C/C++, SQL, etc because the school didn't offer classes for them. The college taught a bunch of outdated technologies (ie mainframe assembly, Obscure Mainframe languages, Pascal) mostly because the professors were dinosaurs and didn't want to bother updating their classes. So don't be surprise if you have similar experiences. You go to college to get a piece of paper, and little that learn can be applied to a real job. But the piece of paper will open doors. Most HR depts toss resumes that don't list a 4yr degree for Technical jobs (ie CS, EE, ME, etc).
Consider that because technology is ever changing you will need to self-teach yourself for your entire working career. You either continue to learn, or you become an unemployable dinosaur!
I can't imagine a Public Technical School being that expensive. I have friends that earn 90K+ (Senior SQL Server DBA) and 115K+ (Senior Network Engineer) that both attended an inexpensive Technical College for Associate Degrees in I.T. specific areas. Both had technical certificates (MCDBA at one point, A+,Network+ for the DBA/Cisco for the Network Engineer) prior to obtaining Associates Degrees. The Network Engineer's employers have paid for additional vendor specific certificates for him. I attended an inexpensive Public University in Alabama and have a B.S. in Business Admin (M.I.S major) and earn 90K+ as a Senior SQL Server DBA. We all live in areas of the Southeast U.S. where the cost of living isn't that expensive. I worked for a very large global website where at least 2 of the Directors was a self-trained programmers that had no formal education prior to joining the company as programmers. The easiest route is to attend a traditional University and an accredited public one to keep cost down if you have no experience otherwise in a career field. However some of the best and brightest I have worked with developed an urge to teach themselves more about information technology and talked their way into entry level positions (often Help Desk) at I.T. companies before pursuing any formal education.
You strike me as the sort of guy who likes to know how technology works just 'cause you think it's COOL!
Well, me too.
My advice is do what I did, or something similar -
(I was naive and didn't know about step 0)
0. Think about who you want to work for.
Find out what schools they recruit at
1. Of the schools in thr above list, Pick out a traditional university - a research school - one with a strong engineering department
It really sounds like what you're looking for is a "software engineering" or " computer engineering" program
The former is typically very software and algorithms oriented and is taught by the CS Dept, the latter will likely have some of that, but also chip and component design elements as well, and possibly taught by the Electrical Engineering dept.
2. Go to a community college, get any Associates you like, with one caveat -make sure the classes you take will transfer to the university and program of study you picked in step 1
3. Go to university picked in step 1. Actually PARTICIPATE in the research process. You'll gain experience, resume filler, contacts, internship opportunities, and ultimately job opportunities.
4. Try your damnedest to get recruited by one of the companies in step 0.
If you don't, you are likely to miss the boat for getting started in your career in your field of choice.
If a company isn't recruiting at your school and you don't have 2-3+ years experience, reality is you probably won't be hired in your field. The only thing to do if you missed that boat is do it on your own long enough that you can build a convincing resume and project portfolio to get hired. Or be a smart ass like me and just go back into IT and get paid serious cheddar cause you had 10+ years experience already, with badass engineering street cred, and the ability to write drivers, build robots, bake chips, and program fpga's. not that I ever do any of that. But I could!
Really wish I had points to mark you up!
1. sex
2. networking with other people who will be in your profession (try not to mix with #1)
3. learning something from a genuine authority on a subject (try not to mix with #1)
4. learning something that is hard to teach to yourself (music performance, foreign languages)
If you are having trouble finding a job, it is probably where you live or your soft/social skills.
A little comp sci theory is a good companion to the stuff (you say) you already know, but it can be self-teachable.
don't try to do a degree anywhere that is not accredited
challenge as many courses as possible in your degree program. if class is a waste of time - take the test and get the credits.
and, or get as many certs as possible
for students - good jobs come to those who are friends with profs and have co op placements.
i am guessing you'd be an outstanding candidate for a co op program - and you'll likely get promoted after your term - and might not even have to finish your degree.
sit down and set some goals. If you want to get a job somewhere find out what they are looking for. If you want to start a business figure out what you need to know to do that.
Usually everything taught at school comes from books, you might try reading a few.
Get your generals out of the way at a community college or similar but be SURE the credits transfer to THE four year college you want to attend.
This will save you thousands of dollars and you end up getting your BA or BS from the school you wanted.
Think about marketing. Huge opportunities for growth positions and most marketing departments have a tight relationship with their corporate purse holders.
First Question you have to ask yourself is "WHAT Do You REALLY want to DO?"
IF all you want to do is program then program, Grab Linux and go.
IF you want to understand the science and physics behind it, go to university.
Another way to really understand something in my mind is to fiddle with it!
What really funny, where I got hired here at my job is because I played with Amateur radio and spectrum analysers, and knew the sensors on my Car..
What I find now, is a lot of people are going into "IT" positions, but there is a WHOLE world out there for programming.
From FPGA's To Software Radio's, Industrial, instrument automation control. Don't limit yourself to the IT world.
Also, if you are good a solving problems and thinking on your feet. You will be better then ANY graduate that can't.
One last point, a good friend mine graduated from a "Technical College" And has a technologist diploma, Started selling optical OTDR's. (look it up)
And was making 6 figures and customers were asking where he got his Phd !!!!!
It's not where you graduate from it's how passionate and how good you are at solving problems, and picking up on the material.
My 2 C's
You seem not to have noticed that recent law school graduates (excepting graduates of top-tier schools, and graduates with "good contacts") are now practicing-up on the phrase "would you like fries with that?"
Have to give the OP that.
Caltech was ok, a little pricey, but I did learn some stuff. I would definitely avoid MIT, winter is pretty harsh up that way.
Step 1: Figure out what sort of job you want
Step 2: Find job openings & figure out what sort of paper they require
Step 3: Attend a school/program that provides said paper
For bonus points, talk to a few corporate recruiters & find out which schools they hire interns/new grads from.
The college you are applying to should have some sort of internship and/or hiring assistance post-degree. If it doesn't, find one that does.
Check the box. Pick an easy major and get it done. Take as many CLEP tests as you can. Ten years from now no one will care what you got your degree in, and unless you go to a top school no one will care where you went. Skip the for-profit schools and find a nice affordable state school.
Im currently 21 from age 18 leading up to now I have worked for major video game companies as well as Governments around the world all with just my High School Diploma and my skills aand experience, Although I was quite successful 2 life threatening diseases have come my way forcing me to return to school as I just cant work like I used to. I am working toward a 4 year degree while I work on getting healthier although it definitely feels like a waste of time when one is capable of the jobs, we just dont have that piece of paper saying we know how to memorize things. I had aspirations of joining the military and becoming an officer but with my diseases they would definitely not let me in. Now perhaps I may dedicate my life to academia and continue onwards to a masters and a doctorate in order to become a professor. Bottom line if you want to create things and make money then go get experience and just do it school will just hold you back.
The statistics on graduation rate and employment rate (in their field) of graduates of most for-profit technical (trade) schools are horrible. Research both statistics before you spend a dime. As other submitters suggest, a good Community College is a much better choice, and you can usually transfer to a 4-year school (check before you select a CC/program.) Buy a mail-order diploma if the CC route sounds too hard, the mail-order paper will do you as much good as the average trade school, and is a lot cheaper and easier.
...I think you have already answered your question. You are spending a lot of money on something that will bring you very little in return.
My priorities when choosing a candidate to hire in my company are:
So, as you can see, you would quickly sink to the bottom of my pre-interview list of candidates. It's highly unlikely you would be called in for an interview. It's not so much that you are getting a bad education at the tech college, but that education is going to be very generic and give you little-to-no idea of what working within an IS/IT group is really like. These schools air commercials during the soap opera and Dr. Phil time of day for a reason: they target unemployed people without any skill sets. These are your peers in a tech college. They cannot be turned into IT wizards in two years. At best, they can get a very simplistic overview of the career field that is about equal to what you can learn on your own, online, for free.
Sorry to be so harsh, but it's my reality, and I imagine the same for many other hiring managers in the field. We value experience over education (and certifications) because the most important consideration before we spend the time and money to recruit and hire someone is "do they have a career path here, long-term?" And the best way to gauge that is experience, plain and simple. That puts you in the age-old conundrum of "how do I get experience without a degree?"
And my answer to that is internships. Work for free. Volunteer your time for a community organization. Have mom or dad or Uncle Joe get you something entry-level in their company. Show me that you not only know your stuff, but have a work ethic, know what you want to do with your life, and can work with the wide range of personality types found in any given company. Talent is everywhere; the ones that get hired are the ones I feel will work hard, get along with their colleagues, and have ambition to work their way up to something other than what they are interviewing for.
:q!
It's obviously possible to get a job in the field without a degree of any sort, but a degree will help immensely. And if the "From NAND to Tetris" syllabus is accurate, a solid computer science degree is exactly what you want, and works for the education requirement of almost any job in the field that requires a bachelors degree (a few closer to the hardware end might want an E.E.).
While I was an engineer, mostly C++ systems/embedded, for over a decade, I had to take some time off to deal with family issues. I did some side projects during this time, but rarely full-time. I did take some additional college science classes, more for myself, during periods of time when I had a light load. So, four years out of work, and I might as well be starting off again. I have noticed some new things though.
There IS more of an interest in things that you do outside of the work day. I have seen companies that want to see something you developed, OSS projects you work on, maybe your github account name, an iPhone app you wrote, coding challenges that you participate in. While many companies do have four year requirements, they don't all. It comes up enough that I wish I had something along those lines myself. I do think some of this is more valuable when you are just starting out in place of formal job experience, but it does allow someone to view the quality of your work regardless. There are plenty of older developers entrenched in companies that write horrible code, and at least this is one way that you can show that you can shine.
The question I really have though, is this what you want to do, or are you doing it just because you think it will pay well? I code when I'm not working, and had taught myself how to program many years before ever worked in the field. If you have a passion for it, you'll learn more on your own than you ever will in class.
WWJD -- What Would Jimi Do?
(Smash amp, burn guitar, take home the groupies)
A 2 year degree is not technical no matter how much spin they put on it. Its worth exactly nothing , you will have to pay through the nose for it, and the credits will not transfer to an accredited institution; so you will have to pay twice for the same classes.
Get an Engineering Degree from an ABET accredited institution if you want a technical degree.
So do yourself a favor and run away from those jokers as fast as possible.
Son had been planning UVA all along, but VA Tech came to talk to him and said they'd offer him a ride; it has other positives (campus @ Switzerland) and now we're confused: (I'm blonde forgive me but) is Virginia Tech considered a tech school? (Oh, that was painful to compose.) Son is unfortunately unsure if he wants engineering/math or Classical Studies/Gaelic, so I thought any tech school would be out, but it turns out Tech has a Classical Studies department and [Tech says] more impressive engineering dept than UVA. (Not to mention: RIDE! LOL, Ride is very, very nice.)
I went to a tiny private college out-of-state, so all I know about big unis is from watching football: most states have a university, a 'state university', and a Tech. WTF are differences if they're all liberal arts, though?
Only you can answer the question of whether it is worth it or not. The right question is "through the curriculum, what is in there that I am interested in and that I could not or would not learn otherwise?" I went through a classical curriculum in France: License/Master/Doctorate.
When I came into Licence, I wanted to do software engineering. I was not interested in anything else than "learning more C++". Actually I did not know anything about anything else. But I have been forced to take some maths classes, processor architecture, stochastic systems. I could not care more about them when I took them. But they happend to be the key stone of what I am doing now. They made me understand how to think as a computer scientist.
There are also classes that I was glad I took because learning it by yourself is tough: algorithms, complexity, operation research, cryptography. I might have try to learn them by myself, but having an actual teacher made things MUCH easier.
If you are only going through it to get a degree on your wall and something to write in your resume. It is not gonna work/be worth it. It does not have to appear useful or interesting for it to be. If nothing seems unknown to you, maybe you should not stay there.
I know that when it comes down to the wire, experience will win over school credentials 95% of the time, but the fact is that a lot of companies do want, if not *require* an undergraduate degree. I'm in a similar boat right now, in that I'm working full-time, and trying to teach myself programming on the side. While I can do it, the structure of having classes helps me quite significantly, and I'm likely to learn more and faster in school than on my own. (And slightly off topic, if anyone has any suggestions for online CS or similar degrees, I'd really love to hear about them. I'm tempted by Full Sail's mobile development degree, but the reviews I've seen lately aren't that promising.) So like people have said, a local public community college/university might be your best bet. Also an option, assuming you're young and semi-mobile is internships and the like. ArenaNet is offering an internship right now that pays about as much as my full time job. Or just get a low, grunt position at a company you can see yourself working at long-term, and tell and show them that you're dedicated and want to move up.
I will agree that the technical end of most technical schools are vastly outdated. I'm never going to use the very poor programming skills I was taught there, nor am I ever going to use COBOL unless I'm really hungry.
The most useful part of the technical school I attended was the two week section on interviewing and interacting with customers in a variety of situations.
Attending the technical school also gave me a good insight to the types of people I would encounter in the real world, and an good deal of practice learning to deal with difficult people on what they view as impossible deadlines.
I learned important skills at the technical school I attended, none of them were the advertised skills.
Having dealt with tata before, I can agree with that and more.
In addition to dealing with the shitty bug ridden code that barely meets spec.
You will actually spend more time and money writing the perfect specs, having Product Owners, Process Managers, Business Analysts, Architects, SMEs and Sr. Engineers working on getting the specs and design to a point where the software is actually usable, than you would if you just built the software in house.
Of course I've only been in the business for 15 years.
there is to much put on the degree part and not much on real skills.
Traditional college have a lot of fluff and filler and some CS tend to be very theory based with big skills gaps.
Focus on your interests. Dont be afraid to explore other areas. I started out wanting to get my comp sci after the us army. Went for three months and got fed up with it. Went to four years of trade school. Now I work as a maintenance technician at a decent company making a decent living. 100% of my success has been driven by my willingness to learn new things and a passion for doing so.
Now that I have been out in The world for a while, I am going back to college, this time solely out of personal interest, for electrical engineering, I also want to move into the field of optics.
Never stop learning for yourself. Let your passion for what you do shine whenyou speak. Speak publicly and you will find that people want to respond well to someone with such conviction.
You can conquer any task, new knowledge, or problem with the right approach.
Traditional college sucks as well and 4 years is to long for tech.
IT needs a Badges system.
IT needs trades based learning not college where to spend years in a class room with little hands on skills.
Then you're going to run into what I did. I did college later on in my early 30's. By then I'd had well over a decade of experience in programming and the I.T. field.
So I just slogged through it and got the B.Sc.
Bill Gates thinks that current model of higher edu needs change.
http://chronicle.com/article/A-Conversation-With-Bill-Gates/132591/
Harper College to announce advanced manufacturing program
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-06-26/news/ct-met-new-harper-college-jobs-program-20120627_1_manufacturing-summit-harper-college-production-workers
now IT needs to have some thing like this.
Tech schools are tied down to the degree system and that makes have a bad rap and they don't get the respect they should get.
Now some community colleges can be very hit or miss but they are more open to drop in and non degree students
As a Vatterott College (unaccredited private tech school) I'm 10 years past graduation and remain nearly $20k in debt, but gainfully employed (full disclosure: I rarely made loan payments the first few years after graduation). I'm not setting the world on fire but I'm supporting my family and enjoying my work. The "degree" program was ludicrously entry level, designed around re-training displaced unskilled tradesmen, but I was able to land temp contracting jobs (and offers prior to graduation) that lead to stable, permanent, career path positions.
Bear in mind, this was 10 years ago, and I would recommend taking a fraction of the costs and apply it to a reputable employment agency instead.
...here's the skinny.
1) You need a degree or certification of some type to get anyone to look at you, because 75% of the people applying for the job you want are idiots. Seriously. When I was in charge of hiring, I would sort through stacks of resumes and applications from people who were MANIFESTLY unqualified for the job in question, only they didn't seem to know it. Every job - even crap jobs - got so many applications that I could just File 13 everyone who was even questionable, because I had a limited amount of time to screw with it and why take the chance on someone with no kind of paper trail to prove he could do what he SAID he could do? Sure, I knew guys who had no college or formal training who could do magic on a machine - my dad was one! - but for every one guy I knew who really was all he said he was, I knew ten who were full of it. From the perspective of the guy (or gal) doing the hiring, there's just ZERO incentive to even look at someone with no credentials unless he or she comes personally recommended by someone you trust. So you need the degree.
2) That said, not all training is created equal. As an educator, I guarantee you we look at the pedigree of applicants to our program. Of course we do. There's just no way to get a full sense of what a student is capable of from a brief writing sample and a few test scores. If they're BAD, they tell us something BAD about the student, but if they're good, they still leave us without enough information. What really drives it is knowing that the student could cut it at a program we know something about. One commentator mentioned that your technical school might not be accredited and to be concerned about that, but that's not the real worry - accredited or not, if it's not a program that turns out good people, it won't matter one whit if you have a degree from that program. Look at the people around you - they are the billboard for your program. They are what employers will think of when they think of this program. If that gives you pause, get out of the program.
3) Now, once you get the interview and, hopefully, get the job, the fact is that having a bachelor's will be better for you than the technical school degree. That sucks, that is too bad, and that is a fact... generally. There are exceptions, but in most places, you'll need the degree to ever rise beyond a certain level, regardless of your competence, for reasons similar to the ones given above - at such places, promotions to the higher levels are decided by people who work in a place far removed from where you work, and they want something more than your word (and the word of a few buddies) that you can perform. They want a degree from a program they know has turned out successful managers or whatnot in the past... so we're back to #2...
and, lastly,
4) All that having been said, don't judge a program by one class. Maybe this guy will explain the things you want to know, just not quite when you would have thought they'd make sense to explain them. Maybe he never will, but all the other instructors are much better - maybe the topics you're interested in are all in some other class. Pedagogy is much more complex than non-teachers tend to think; there are often good reasons for seemingly oddball choices about what gets done or covered when. Also, the fact is, some very good programs have one or two dud teachers. It happens. Talk to people who have graduated from the program - do they know what they are doing? Talk to the other teachers - do they know anything? Get the facts.
Hmm. Assembly you say? "We need to go deeper..." I'll just leave this here.
FTRMF:
WARNING
This software is ammunition for foot snipers. You will be editing the system's memory matrix directly, in real time, as it is running. It is strongly suggested you first use an artificial construct such as a Virtual Machine to familiarize yourself with using Hexabootable.
If you edit a program as it is running a hung CPU is the most likely, but not the worst thing that can happen by far; Editing a working stack is just as dangerous. Your firmware and/or hardware could be seriously damaged if you are not very careful in there...
The first page that appears (address 07C0:0000) contains the editor program that is displaying the text. Although some memory may be seen changing as the view and cursor move near the end of the program, you must resist the urge to edit this live machine code (unless you're prepared to face the consequences).
See the Memory Map for your system, and also this program's memory map which is listed in the source code along with many other details.
All that matters is, can you solve problems others cannot? Specifically, problems that others are willing to pay to have solved. If your tech school improves your ability, directly or indirectly, it is worth attending. Always concentrate on improving your abilities not on collecting academic credentials. Solving problems makes you face your short comings and overcome them. There is always room at the top and you can get there. The road to the top has some rough patches, most of them are in your attitudes and insecurities. Mastery and elegant code go hand in hand. Good luck to you. I never met you but I have learned over my career you are the only thing holding back your progress to mastery. Find 5 great programmers hang with them work with them and you will sky rocket. Good luck. I can promise you it is worth doing.
If you are feeling unchallenged, chances are the trend will continue. I received an AS from a tech school, only to go back to a respectable school to earn a BS (now on to a MS). The tech school will teach you the basic administration tasks, etc., but a respectable 4 year college will teach you how these skills in a useful manner.
In short, don't waste your money. If I did it over again, I'd skip the AS. There is a documentary that came out a couple of years ago called "College, Inc." It's an eye opener.
Best of luck to you.
I currently teach at a rather small non-profit tech school, and have previously taught for one of the larger for profit college systems. From what everyone has said, I agree with a lot of it, especially dealing with schools like ITT (who I did not work for). However, I think something that a lot of people are missing is that a CS degree will often not teach you some very practical things about being in charge of a network. The school district in the town I work in ( less than 10k people) has a person with a CS degree in charge if their network. Before some of my students interned there, they were not using WSUS and were manually updating machines, mainly because the CS person did not know the functionality of it. Yes, they can learn, but sometimes specific education on the practical aspects of doing a job is useful. I also let them borrow a couple of older Cisco managed switches and setup the monitoring to figure out which un-updated computer were flooding the network. This person is also not very familiar with the concepts of sub-netting. For a lot of jobs in the smaller towns where companies have maybe 50-100 employees and 1-2 full-time tech people, a person with practical knowledge is more useful than a lot of theoretical knowledge.
At the school I work at now, I control the books and curriculum, and the school wants us to keep a job in field outside of school also. I have had many of the graduates from my program start at mediocre jobs and move up very quickly. At the large for profit system I taught at, it was all centralized control, and the instructors were mostly there to answer questions, and regurgitate the curriculum. Don't paint all tech schools with the same brush. And, the reason I am teaching instead of being in field is that the big cities near me are about three times farther away, and I don't work nights or Fridays, get a month off for Christmas, and 3 months off for the summer. I am happy to get paid a little less to be able to spend more time with my family. When I was in field full time, there were too many days leaving at 7:00 am and getting home at 11:00 pm, or later.
If you get into the right tech school. When I went to a tech school in the 70's, though I had some knowledge of electronics, and some experience while working for 3 years in a television repair shop, I did learn a lot, and was hired right out of school by Texas Instruments as a bench repair tech. I stayed with them for a year, just to gain some work experience. (hated Houston, Tx though). Moved back to my home state, floated around for a year, and then got back to work. I've been in pretty much the same field for 30 years, and still enjoy it. I haven't been laid off ever, and am in demand because I'm good at what I do and the training I learned, helped me. So, for not everyone, a tech school/associates degree is a waste of time as long as you do your research. You get OUT of it what you put INTO it.
If that's what you'd like to do.
Traditional college sucks as well and 4 years is to long for tech.
IT needs a Badges system.
Badges? Badges! We don't need no stinkin' badges!
It seems to me that lots of engineering focus is on the software side, and hooray that is great that we have experts in everything net related and that side of the problem for product development in Linux, Windows etc and their toolsets for software development, and a great community (sourceforge, freshmeat, etc.)
Yet the missing part is key engineers understanding embedded systems or all else removed from operating system support. Even with FPGAs and a Linux core
it is a wide open window between hardware design and the code.
(opinion ) go with devices at the lowest level if you want to be a standout software guy, learn how to make them function in collaboration with the changing hardware guys.
There are also highly sought after engineering skills at the hardware level:
RF
signal integrity
board design
analog
I started off getting an AS in Electronics Engineering (I took extra calculus courses), and worked at it for a few years. Then I went back and got an AS in Computer Systems. I worked for about 49 weeks in a data center right after finishing, and found that most people wanted a university degree (a BSc). So I went off to university and got a BSc in CS, and then got a supplemental diploma in database administration. An AS will get you an administration job. It can be interesting, but its usually mostly crunching financial records. If that's your thing, then go hard. After getting the BSc., I got jobs working with GIS data, in emergency services, and in places where I can mix computing more with the electrical engineering AS I started out with. The cryptography, networks, artificial intelligence, and cognitive psychology are an interesting mix with the avionics and radar systems I studied early on. Know what to expect.
I'll start by saying where I'm coming from now. I did not complete a college degree, though I attended two technical courses in my life. One was a Cisco oriented networking class at my high school which gave me an good grounding in networking that has served me well, and the other was a C programming class at a community college that was generally useful. However, neither of those were critical to my career path. I am currently a well paid "senior" software engineer at a well known company and well respected among my peers. My winding up in this position without formal qualifications was admittedly very lucky, but I'll describe career path in the hopes that it can be replicated. I count myself extremely lucky to be earning an excellent living, particularly since I don't have any student debt to repay.
I got to this position by starting as an all around support person for a tiny local technical services company. This provided experience with a ton of different types of systems, dealing with end users, and dealing with a flaky small business boss who sometimes couldn't even afford my paycheck. All very valuable in the business world I would assert.
After that I moved to a small network monitoring company that also offered services as a NOC associate. Basically that meant I'd sit around all day (or night) watching for green boxes to turn red and either do something or call someone. That and answering emails and phone calls from our clients. Particularly on the night shifts I had plenty of time on my hands. I asked my manager if I could use this time to help out with the company's software, since I had some coding experience and nothing else better to do. Luckily, they agreed to give me some projects and I produced a few things that mostly worked. In retrospect they were pretty much shit, but you live and you learn.
After a while of doing that, I moved to a real full fledged programming job based on what I'd learned in the previous one. I had some help from people I'd met getting the interview, since I wasn't qualified on paper, but I had real experience. Here I learned how to write real server software, and how to not over-engineer things (mostly by over-engineering them and seeing how that went.) I got some excellent experience with real largish scale production environments, which helped teach me what to care about and what not to care about.
Finally I wound up at my current employer, which is the first place I've really felt like I deserved to be there. I've done many different things here. My success here has mostly been because I always try to dig into how things work. That's an incredibly valuable skill to a manager that's paying attention. If you can quickly become that person that people come to when they want to understand something, you are a very valuable member of the team and it doesn't matter that you didn't go to college. There's probably a lot more too it than that, but that's a good start at least, you'll figure out the rest. There's hope if you don't get a degree, but you need to have some luck to get your foot in the door, after that I've found that your abilities can speak for themselves.
Years ago I had a junior technician working on my crew with an H1B, he was a bright Iraqi fellow with a Ph.D in Physics. Middle management had him doing programming work for $8.50 an hour with plenty of OT.. With cuts looming in the near future he was safe but that meant that someone else would be taking the cut. So I had to get him a promotion within the company to ensure the safety of my crew.
Since that experience I have really hated the way H1B works. Though I don't have animosity t'ward the H1B holders.
I've taught in both technical, community, and 4 year colleges in the IT and computer science areas for over 25 years. My perspective comes from the other side of this discussion. Technical colleges often do not translate into transferable classes at all. You might get a low paid position after graduation, but seldom one providing enough income to repay your loans. If you are lucky enough to secure a position after graduation, sometime down the line the company will usually require you to hold an accredited degree from a 2 or 4 year institution to move up the career ladder. That will mean going back to a college (evenings and weekends) with an accredited college offering transferable courses. So, best to start at a community college or university level right off rather than burning 6 years getting your feet firmly planted on the ground and on with your career. ... my heart and soul hurt every night I left work. I knew that my students were oftentimes working hard in class, only to discover after graduation they had shortchanged themselves by choosing the technical/business college academic path.
I've had over 20,000 students go through my classes over the years. Here's my off-the-cuff recount of the results: From the business/technical schools less than 10% move into IT careers that earn $60,000/year or above within 3 years of graduation. From the community college level: 40% move into the $60,000/year range within 3 years. At the university level, 70% move into this range within 2 years of graduation. All of this depends on one very important thing - your motivation, determination, and willingness to be a dedicated, productive employee for the firm. That means more than 40 hours a week, for years into the future. Keep your "nose clean" and learn what it takes to be "corporate". Keep your personal life "clean" too. If you party and play in your off time, it will show on the job and they will replace your quickly. They want performers on the job but not children while off the job. Companies seek adults, not children on their road to adulthood.
I know, this all sounds like an old guy preaching to the young pups, but it is the truth. It's the truth now, as it has been for many generations in the past. And take as few "internet classes" as possible. Companies are beginning to view them as merely correspondence courses and value them little if at all. If you do choose web-based classes, why not just fill out the form on the back of a matchbook cover. They offer about as much chance of getting a good job as a technical/business degree does.
Oh, and when I did teach at the business/technical college level, truthfully
Good luck and I sincerely hope you make the right choice. There are very few do overs in this regard. Just remember, this is not a dress rehearsal, this is your life and the choices you make now will have lifelong consequences.
No.
Avoid For Profit schools like ITT Tech at all costs. One screw up and they'll have you out and charging you for extra crap without submitting it through student loans and expecting you to pay them for things you were never told about. They don't care about your education, only money.
If you're intelligent, and self-motivated, you'll be able to learn a lot of what you want to know without technical schooling. One of my best friends never went to college and BARELY went to high school, and he programs circles around me. If you're looking for a job, a degree helps but isn't strictly necessary. Personally, I think your choice of school matters a lot too. I was CS at Georgia Tech, we did a lot of "behind the veil" stuff, but we really didn't get into it until sophomore year. The first year was mostly just making sure everyone was on the same page, but once we got past it, things got a lot more interesting.
code, code some more, and then code some more again. Read code. Read all kinds of code. C, C++, java, javascript, bash scripts, ruby, python, ruby, ... Learn assembler too, not just java and javascript. Teach yourself if you must. Or go to college. But by all means, find other people and code with them. The best way to learn to code is to do ti wiht others who are better than you, hopefully WAY better than you. The biggest mistake I see juniors make is to think that they know the best way to do something, anything. Seniors also can learn from juniors though so bring your new ideas to the field. And finally, as a senior wiht nearly 40 years (started on punch cards) coding experience, use Test Driven Development. If you don't know other people doing this, by all means go to a technical college, but you should also look for some real world experience by looking for internships.
Worst time to go to college. If you're working, are you saving? If not why not? Make ambitious savings plans. Saving a minuscule amount is no better than partying up and saving nothing. Save a lot, cut down on social life if u have to. What age are you? Are you married? Too little context give. Get the big picture. Get out of debt if you're in it. Buy silver and gold with your savings. Lead, and nickel are better than plastic and paper.
A good technical college or university will be ABET accredited (abet.org) you can search for the school name here: http://main.abet.org/aps/Accreditedprogramsearch.aspx. HINT: search on full school names, not abbreviations. I know hiring managers that will not even look at a resume if it lists a non-accredited school, like ITT, or ECPI.
Grow some marijuana, smoke up and study every kind of hardware, chip, and resistor, start putting together tools, meters, o-scopes, wrenches, sockets, everything, collect data books, collect parts, buy shit at auctions, dumpster dive, make friends with tech people who throw shit out, figure out parts that are common to what people need and will be needing for the next ten years. After five to fifteen years of tweaking, prepping, and stocking, find people who need networks built, contract to build them up, always do flawless work, be at the ready 24/7/365, zero complaints, you will go far. You might even get swamped with work. Don't burn out either, stay away from people with bad work habits, jokesters, shovel-lean'ers, the meth heads, sometimes you have to work with them, so don't be obvious in your discrimination, just cause they smoke pot doesn't mean they are bad, so don't judge the wrong way either. If think you want to start a business, you better be able to keep it going when the times get tough, what kind of business is it, incorporated? how is your health? You better make sure it makes sense mathematically and that you BELIEVE in what you are doing, while you may subcontract out help, you better be the one who opens the doors at 6 am every day, or answers the phone 24/7, you better decide who to subcontract with and why. You are the mother, the business is your baby. You really need to know yourself, your resources, how to bid a job (extremely important), get along with people in the field and stay on top of the latest tech. There's more than enough to make up for Tech school here, but I would also go to the tech school when it's offered, I would also take SPECIFIC CLASSES that I need to round out my plans in life. I don't give a fuck about degree's and you shouldn't either.
If your goal is to learn more, take a look at places like this: https://www.coursera.org/.
. . . which is why I feel like you'd get a lot out of a good University Computer Science program. It seems like the technical school you are attending right now is just teaching you a single language, while a Computer Science degree will actually teach you how to program and think in a must more comprehensive way. With how far you were able to go teaching yourself, you could gain a lot.
Are you living in a place like California? If you can make it to a good program, like Berkeley, through community college or something like that, you really should go for it. If in doubt though, watch a webcast or two of their classes:
http://webcast.berkeley.edu/playlist#c,d,Computer_Science,87898FD0A141069E
http://webcast.berkeley.edu/playlist#c,d,Computer_Science,1A2EBAC4283FE3EA
I never regretted going there, and they way they taught me to program was so much more advanced than anything I had been teaching myself at that point; it was really eye-opening. A lot of other schools with big undergraduate computer science programs (MIT and Stanford) have similar material available for free online, and it's all worth checking out.
I really hope I've convinced you that a degree in a good program is still worth quite a lot. It's also definitely helped me land a job much more easily.
Stick with ITT and learn about computer operating systems, like this guy.
.
Prisencolinensinainciusol. Ol Rait!
Lots of smaller centers don't have lawyers and need them.
There is a massive glut of them in the city.
This trend is not exclusive to law. Supply, demand..
..don't panic
I went a "technical" college / university and I can tell you in 75% of cases I out weighted the profs technically. The profs were better technically endowed but still lacked a lot of basic skill. Everything we did was Windows based, we weren't allowed to step to far outside the box and we used mainly closed source wide spread software to run everything. Really to be honest it would of been worth my time and money to go to a normal college and tech it up myself. Now that I'm graduated I would honestly recommend to not put to much trust in a tech college, do it your own and rock it!.
I've met lots of programmers that have degrees in Art, Film Study, you-name-it... The degree is just a "union card" that gets you in the door. Your knowledge, experience, and personality are what get you the job. On that note, a lot of places do want a bachelors degree and not just an associate degree.
I personally went to a non-accredited technical collage and it lead me to my current job ( decent pay )
The hands on skills and networking with teachers and other students was the big draw for me.
Worth noting is that a lot of companies like to hire for these places for the specific reason that you don't have a degree. Yes it means less pay, but it also means for my ~$3500 one year course I was hired within 3 months of completion, and am making 2.5x minimum wage in my area. Is it great, no. Does it mean I am free to explore other interests? Definitely. Better to do this then take a 3-4 year course costing tens of thousands of dollars to maybe end up in a job I don't like.
They kinda taste like tasty wheat . . . . kinda . . .
As others have said, not all technical schools are created equal. Heavily research any school before you attend and I would lean towards a public technical college. I graduated from one in 2005 with a degree in Network Administration. Thanks to the degree and previous experience I had supporting a small business' PCs and lone Linux server on my own, I was able to go right from college into a Systems Admin job.
What happens after you graduate and begin to get experience is what's really critical. The degree itself is just the spring board, it's up to you what you do with it.
For me, I decided early on I wanted to focus on VMware and got the VCP. That got me into a great consulting job that I love and have been at for almost 3 years.
It rattles me when people say a 2 year degree is worthless or a waste of time. They're not -- it's really up to the individual what they do with it and, with a little luck, you can land get into great jobs and earn $100k or more.
Any school which is promising that you'll get a job when you get out is a taking your money and giving you empty promises in return. The only training program I'm aware of which ensures a job is the military, usually with a mandatory commitment period.
You're going to school to prove that you can do hard things. If you're going into programming, you'll be doing hard things. An educational background which suggests that you are averse to doing hard things will not stand you well. A technical school does not suggest that you're up for hard things. A degree from a commuter school suggests that you are averse to immersing yourself in the unfamiliar.
Go to a four year school. Take hard classes, both in your field and out of it. Live on campus. Yes, it's expensive. Yes, you'll be up to your eyeballs in debt. But you'll prove to yourself and to employers that you're up for challenges and you can thrive even in unfamiliar environments. You'll also learn a lot about living and working with people who are different than you, something that's incredibly important for success in the workplace and in life. Those are the differences that are going to make the difference between a good career or a stalled one.
Military service is also not a bad idea. Sure, there's the risk that you'll get killed. But you'll also demonstrate that you can meet challenges and work in hard situations. You'll also meet a lot of different people, which won't hurt your career. If you couple military service with a four year degree via ROTC, you can come out as an officer. That never looks bad on a resume.
Easy Online Role Playing Campaign Management
As someone who's worked for small gov, federal gov, private sector, and in education I would like to give you some advice I'm thankful was given to me.
First, Tech schools in many cases we in education refer to as "bottom feeders" they will accept anyone and everyone who's able to get financed to go to their school, most of these schools are severely over priced have sub par offerings, and their degrees are seen as little more than a sliver of a dead tree. Some of the certifications you get during your time there do hold weight, but honestly you can get most of those with a few days of studying before hand. (weeks if you pursue the higher end Cisco certs) Note, not all Tech schools are like this, but most are.
Second, Actual Universities tend to give a less focused better rounded education. In this regards your "niche" you'll tend to get less exposure than other alternatives, but the well rounded education is MUCH more valuable to your employer. I can teach anyone to code in a given language, but teaching someone to understand the broader picture is far more challenging and time consuming. Your 4 year (typically all thats needed for people in CS related fields) is far more valuable than a handful of certs (And you can often get those certs along side your degree)
As someone who's worked with HR in hiring for IT departments for a large corporate entity (Who shall remain unamed) If I had a on time contract project. Something I needed people to know their stuff walking in my door get it done, then conclude our business I take the person with experience, a tech school degree, and fistfull of certifications. If I'm hiring someone I plan to keep around long term like a network admin. I'll take someone with an actual degree from a respectable University everytime (Assuming the other canidates are in reasonable tolernace in regards to professionalism and past experience)
As far as challenge goes... Typically your 2 year degree will offer little challenge saving for any subjects that might be a weak point for you individually. When you get to the ladder part of your 4 year is when things can get really tough. (Sadly I do agree with others our education system is broken, however; broken or not it's what I've got to work with as an employer)
I will say experience in our field is as much a curse as it is a blessing. Experience can shape you into an outstanding IT professional, it can also hone you into the worst coder in the field. (If you work for a company who has terrible habits, you'll eventualyl pick up those habits, you've got to be able to break them when you change employers) Often I'll take a fresh unproven graduate over someone with no degree and experience. Just because of how often I get old vetrans who came from companies with terrible practices. It doesn't take long at the interview to figure out that "best practices" are a concept known but unpracticed by an individual.
All in all though, get either a degree from a respectable universary, or get your certs. Personally I think of Tech schools as people who take advantage of individuals who either cannot afford, are intimidated by, or rejected by universaries. (Also DO NOT TAKE A STUDENT LOAN!!!! you're better off without an education then 50K in debt)
When I found out my ex was pregnant, I decided to plow through a tech school from 20-22. I figure I'd better get a job that lets me afford diapers and cheerios. I went all the way to Bachelor level in those 2.5 years, attending school day and nights and working a graveyard shift at Walmart. No, the credits aren't transferable, but I can "test into" a Master's program if I try really hard. But... it's easier to just start over, earning real credits, from what I've read.
The only positive thing I got from the experience itself was the textbooks. Other than that, I felt like I bought a brand new Lexus and drove it off a cliff. It was expensive as hell, and I had to push hard to just get through it. Not because it was difficult, but because it felt worthless. I'm still paying the loans back, 10 years later, and it'll be 3 or 4 more before I'm finally done. It was a harsh experience.
Now, though, I've learned I can use the degree pretty well, since I don't try to use it for proof of knowledge anymore. I just list it as a regular old Bachelor's degree on my resume, and I've gotten the actual knowledge I need through other avenues. I do run into problems sometimes if I'm dealing with local academia, who recognize the degree for what it is, but for the most part employers see "Degree" and say "Oh, nice. Do you feel your degree has helped you professionally?". The answer, of course, is "Yes, definitely.", though the reality is having a degree (any degree, but especially a trade school degree) says more about how you can follow through on a multi-year project than it says about your accumulated knowledge.
In any case; schools of all types are heavily dependent on how invested you become in your own education. The truth is, no matter where you go, you'll sometimes feel like you have to learn materials on your own, unless you can somehow find a way to get schooling where you're the only student in all your classes. I'd say a full accredited university is a safer way to learn, since you can further your education without too much trouble, but if you're already paid up for the trade school, use what you paid for. Time is also a factor - if you know you need to be in and out in a couple years, a trade school might work, but recognize it for what it is.
I teach at a technical college, and I can say some of my students get jobs; I know this because I get referral calls from employers, and the occasional thank-you note.
Is it worth it? I can't say. I see a wide range of students, with a wide range of abilities and goals. For some, tech school is a good thing; for others, not so much. You will have to judge yourself and your goals for yourself.
-kgj
I went to a tech school back in 1978 for RPG programming and computer operations.
I have been in the IT industry since then, as computer operator, programmer, networking,
and am now the IT manager for a television station.
If the tech school allows you to get your foot in the door in an entry level position, you can
learn more on the job than you can in any school. Try to get into a company that believes
in continuing your education and allows you to take tech courses. Then you can learn
and get paid at the same time!
It sounds like you should be a Computer Engineering student.
IF you're smart? You not only go to schooling for whatever discipline you're going for, but to also be a "autodidact" (self-taught) ontop of it! Odds are, IF you're intelligent enough to realize this (or experienced enough)?? You start to realize that work IS WORK, and that you should ENJOY (or @ least be proficient at) what it is you do... otherwise, you probably won't be interested enough to become TRULY proficient @ the tasks at hand that job entails since you really aren't "into" them...
(The school you go to doesn't MATTER as much as what YOU, yourself, pour into learning about your discipline of choice... since you DO get what you put into things, MOST of the time @ least, imo!)
* There's NOTHING WRONG with being a "Good Will Hunting" in other words, ontop of going to school to learn "more Kung Fu" from those that have been there/done that,.& know the pitfalls of NOT knowing the "little tricks" school can give you (such as in Computer Science & especially in the course DATASTRUCTURES - this one can save you a LOT of fundamental mistakes & make your programs a lot more efficient, faster, & reliable... imo @ least!)
Now, I do know that I have "schooled" PhDs in this field of computing before too - they're NOT "without fault" & perfect, and they too need to learn a "trick or two" @ times, or have their mistakes pointed out to them as well (just mortal men).
APK
P.S.=> I have my Bachelors/B.S. in Business Administration with a MIS concentration, but I also went back for MORE schooling, in straight Comp. Sci. later (AAS CSC credits mark = 60, & I am 90/120 into the BS for CSC as we speak, & I pursue it as time & finances permit, of course)... but, I never, EVER stop learning since this field moves SO FAST, you have to do that in order to be competitive & competent! THIS MEANS "AutoDidact" to-the-max... should be "cake" for anyone that likes the field/art & science of computing really, since one most likely has a STRONG INTEREST in it!
... apk
I do technical recruiting (in addition to my regular day job) for the IT organization at a large company that has a very high percentage of PhDs and MDs on staff. We hire people with technical college experience as contract workers, but virtually no one gets a full-time job with benefits without a Bachelor's degree, at least.
I wholeheartedly agree with sycomonkey with regards to starting out at a community college and transferring to a 1st or 2nd tier state school. Here in Southern California, that's Pasadena Community College or Moorpark Community College, then on to Cal State Northridge or UCLA, both of which are very highly respected.
I also agree with other posters that focus on positivity, problem-solving skills, and persistence.
Take the time (not five minutes, five hours), to google and get familiar with student loan scams, google your proposed college ruthlessly. If you find people who have posted about it, get in contact with them.
Make sure you understand student loans, and DO NOT SIGN ANYTHING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. Loans will be with you for years, if you are lucky, for life, if not.
If someone tells you to sign something you don't understand, they are not your friend. Walk away. Literally get up and leave.
* A class of politically connected, relatively wealthy elite, who held to power with their teeth, murdering and enslaving the rest.
You plan leads to this, too - though to a greater magnitude in that you create politically connected, extremely wealthy elite. The rest get the shaft.
* A class of dependants, incapable of any initiative whatsoever, not people, automatons who wouldn't move a finger unless they were told to (and pushed by threat of violence as well).
Difference being that your plan forces people into this. They are left with no choice but to be exploited. They have no ability to show initiative because they are too busy fighting in the streets for a slightly better loaf of discarded moldy bread to bring back to their family. They may have the most brilliant business idea in the world, but it doesn't matter because they can't go to school to learn how to propose it, and they can't afford property to set up a shop either.
But the people on the top are living the greatest life they could have ever hoped for. So the world is just fucking rainbow-shitting unicorns then, isn't it?
Nevermind that of course you yourself will eventually be trampled and left to fight it out on the streets, too. But your faith tells you differently and you take faith over reality any day of the week.
On a different note, roman_mir, why did you write this reply with your sock puppet account? You seem to now be allowed to post four times a day with your regular account...
i got me a degree of "computer programming" at one (with a 4.0 GPA, no less). useless. with it and a nickel i can buy me a cup of coffee. i''m a bartender now.
alive to the universe, dead to the world
First, why go to school if you don't have a particular job in mind that you want?
Fun, exploring, finding yourself ?
I think successful people look around themselves and assess their situation, and build on that.
Live in a small town? Do you want to move to the City? Which City, what are its industries?
Then estimate the job market, the employment situation, the level of saturation.
And lets be honest, there are a lot of prejudices and expectations built into a profession independent of ability or education. If you ignore those your setting youself up to fail in the first place.
A College Education or a Trade school education isn't a guarantee, far from it, its a "bet" on a possible future that you wager a lot on. Most people never end up employed in whatever field they study. Opportunity and random chance have a lot more to do with that. If the overall job market isn't that great, taking a big risk in studying something you know nothing about doesn't sound like a Good idea.
Imposing your expectations on a field or institution also doesn't sound like a very good idea.. better to take a rest and think things over. Too often we try to muddle on through and end up shackled in debt we cannot discharge, regretting our decisions. You shouldn't do that. If it feels wrong, it probably is wrong.
Not sure on the definition of a technical school, but I would suggest community college if you were looking at any technical school. CC generally allows you to transfer your 2 years to a 4-year university. Just ask where you can transfer to with the associates degree you're seeking.
Also, while you might learn more teaching yourself given trades and skills, never discount the worth of an accredited degree- you'll want it if you go to work for anyone but yourself.
We have a 'badge' system for IT and it's those stupid certifications from some for-profit group that you have to renew. Climb the associatesbachelorsmastersPHD ladder instead, you'll be better off in the end.
Just my 2sense, I did exactly this as they were my thoughts in high school.. and have served me well to today. I made the right call.
tech school=degree mill
Get out while you can and go to a real school.
"I got a degree from ITT and now I earn a gazillion dollars"
Don't believe the hype
I have been in the tech industry since 1994. Right now I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that ANY 4 year college degree is a must if you want a progressive career. IT is full of good people with varying levels of education and a variety of degrees, but if you want to break $100k per year you almost always have to have a 4 year degree of some kind to get past the Human Resource department as well as some type of industry certification (CCIE, CISSP, VCP, MCSE, etc..). and if you want to rise to a Director or SVP it pays to have an MBA even if you have a technical background and experience. Now if you are happy with making $50k-$80k a year, you can do that without any college, but only if you have the talent.
My advice get a 4 year degree in something that interests you. if possible get a job where they will help pay for it. That way you get experience and education.
good luck.
Like it or not, nowadays you need a college degree, at least a Bachelor's. Some of job posting even says "Master Degrees preferred". We could argue all day/night long that, especially in computer science/engineering related positions, one could be a capable employee without any college degree but at the end of the day most employers would still ask for one. I notice Google is an exception. Many of their job postings say "X years of experience in lieu of college degree". I think it makes sense for them to use a college degree from an accredited University/College as a measure of someone's commitment and ability to complete something.., for 4 years at least. That's a standard/system already available. That's just my 2-cent.
Want to run the school game? Get your B. S. and hit the law schools. Pass the bar, and you have a career for life.
That's a horrible idea if you can't get into the top 7 or so law schools.
About half of law school graduates can't get jobs as lawyers and many end up shuffling papers for $15 an hour. That might not be so bad in the grand scheme of things, although the average law graduate finishes their education with $150,000 on which student loan interest can run $1000/month so you'd need to live off $8.50 an hour to keep the principle from increasing which is poverty level.
I know we would consider a person with a technical degree. For us, it means that the person didn't just continue his education and go to college because Dad was paying and it was better than working. Usually people going to technical colleges go there because they are really interested in doing something specific. These are the people who actually remain interested in what they are doing after college and remain productive.
You probably won't command the big bucks in the job market but I think you'll land a job with a company that is about getting the job done (probably a smaller company) and it will be a more interesting job.
In the way of a general comment: I went to an associates degree technical college. My evaluation was that I was learning everything I needed there to do engineering work. Even though the 4 year colleges would disagree, this is 90 % true: The only viable knowledge the 4 degree added when I went a 4 year institution on was structured programming practices (somewhat important agreed), but that was only about 10% of all the additional course content I had to take. But the reason I did eventually go back and finish is the 95% of companies now will not hire an associates degree person to do much more than assemble computers or hold the DVM for the engineer.
I would go to a public trade school with a transfer program. Then transfer to a state university and do as many internships/co-op semesters as needed to pay for school. Internships/Co-ops are an excellent way to earn money/get experience/make contacts/test drive potential employers. If you want grad school, you can be a teaching assistant/lab assistant/research assistant. One summer I worked for the Computer Science Dept. and my last semester I did my master's thesis that was paid for by the Army.