Interesting, a quick search on Google reveals that there isn't much on this topic other than people talking about the oldest computer they have. One post talks about some old IBM Series 1's and S/360/30.
Might I politely suggest the newsgroup (well, Google Group for the unwashed heathen) called alt.folklore.computers? Use the "Groups" search on Google.
Somehow I doubt that many of the people that would be running such old computers such as ones from before 1970 would be reading Slashdot.
Hmmm. You appear to be forgetting three things:
(1) Many older (usually mainframe) architectures tend to have very stable ABIs, some of them going back multiple decades, and many of them still in production use. This is certainly true in both the IBM and Unisys mainframe worlds, for example, where both hardware and software architectures have roots in the 1960's.
(2) Because of #1, one doesn't have to be that old in order to accumulate significant experience with such older systems. I've personally worked with a lot of code written in the 1960's and 1970's on Unisys Clearpath Dorado boxes running OS2200, and most of that code is running right now on production systems for some fairly large corporations. Recompiled, but otherwise unchanged.
(3) A geek is a geek is a geek. I'm a mainframer by day, but I was playing with SLS in late 1992 with various 0.99 kernels (downloaded from a local Fido BBS) well before most of the rest of the audience here had ever heard of Linux. Just because I played with mainframe code during the day doesn't mean I couldn't be a full-fledged PC weenie at night, and experience with PC operating systems, UNIX, and mainframe OSes is not mutually exclusive. I know many people in the same boat, and most of them read Slashdot.
Its too bad there is such a big disconnect between the generations of computer programmers and administrators.
Thankfully, that disconnect isn't complete. There are corners of the computing universe where the old guard is still remembered and their experience and tenants valued.:)
I just finished writing an F77 program here at work. Just a fairly small mainframe transaction (around 2000 lines of code including fairly extensive comments). My last compile of this code was 15:21:20 GMT on 14 April 08, which was just over two weeks ago.:-)
FWIW, Fortran is still used heavily in the airline industry. Generating optimal flight plans, doing weight and balance and optimal flap/thrust calculations, etc. We had between 10 and 20 million LOC in Fortran at NWA, I'd estimate, and that includes the "new" flight planning system.
Yes, you're right. I should have been more precise and said "computer storage media (which are typically binary in nature)", not just "computing", which as you note contains a number of exceptions to my assertion.
Most of those are not spot welded in place. After working in a repair shop for many years, I noticed it was common for many of the coin cells to have spot welded terminals which are then simply soldered onto the PCB. A soldering iron replaces these with ease if you have any soldering skill.
Huh. Okay. That's something I can actually check out. It does look like a fairly standard coin cell, too.
Thank you for the correction and the suggestion!:-)
If language is defined by usage, does that mean that copyright infringement now equals theft?;-)
Hey, some people call Microsoft an "innovative" "technology" company, so anything can happen.:-)
You have never seen the confusion of metric users entering the CS field, have you?
It isn't my fault that overexposure to SI units causes brain atrophy.
Ever seen a teacher struggle with the very same point we're having right now?
Honestly? No.
So your argument becomes "if you're in a computing context BUT not talking about hard drives OR telecommunications, then kilo means 1024"...
Heh. No, it isn't that complicated.
if binary storage then SI = base 2 else SI - base 10 endif
The distinction is a trivial one to make unless one is dense beyond repair. Telecommunications is not storage, and drive manufacturers are abusing a term to their advantage (not the first time that marketing has abused terms... see my references to the words "innovative" and "technology" above...
I'd rather use KiB=1024, thank you very much.:-)
Use what you want. I think those newfangled UNIX boxes are cute, too.:-)
Good for you. Welcome to Slashdot -- contrary opinions are welcome here.:-)
First of all could you please explain to me why I should take somebody who decorates his opinions with emoticons and "Sheesh" seriously?
Such decorations are prefectly appropriate when one is feigning annoyance with something in a message. Or is humor something which is also beyond your grasp?
While I actually do think the change to the new SI units is stupid, for example, I also happen to understand the justification. However, part of me is sad that the successful context-sensitive use of the previous terms in the industry is being removed for what I consider overly pedantic reasons. The existing terms worked just fine where it mattered, and in some senses the creation of the new SI prefixes smacks more of political correctness than an actual need in the industry for those terms. It's a solution in search of a problem, IMSNShO.
Secondly, who are these "folks in the Real World" you speak of? This is is pretty much the first time I've seen 'octet' used, in either the real or imitation world.
It's a very common term in communications technical documents, various RFCs, etc., where data transfer between multiple dissimilar platforms is a not infrequent occurrence. I've even seen the term used in modem documentation for end users. Do a search on Google sometime; it might be educational. Seriously.
Language is typically defined by usage, not the other way around. Unless you're the French, perhaps.:-)
Remember that "kilo" *did* (and does) mean 1024 in a computing context. Everybody understood that who was involved on a technical level. Everybody. There was no miscommunication in the general case... except when it came to laypeople who largely didn't understand what was described in the first place. When that happened, we just told them that bigger is better and moved on...
Your comment about octet confuses and annoys me. Go away.:-)
Shh... The submitter is trying to impose those trendy "base 2" SI prefixes on us in spite of 40+ years of prior art to the contrary. Another case of ivory tower types not being sophisticated enough to grok current industry usage, methinks...
And don't even get me started on folks who assume a byte is always eight (b) bits. There's a reason folks in the Real World use the term "octet", people. Really.
When I went to college in Minnesota 25 years ago, two of the local state universities (Mankato and St. Cloud) had Computer Science programs with very good local reputations, so there was a certain amount of positive vibe that went along with a degree from those schools (as well as a degree from the U of Minn).
I suspect the name "Mankato State" means fairly the state of MN, however.:-)
That said -- sometimes the institution you graduate from does matter. If a company already has people from a given school and has had a positive experience with those people, they might choose to hire someone else from that school if all other factors are roughly equivalent.
Does a degree from a tech school carry more weight than one from a liberal arts college. I think it depends on the reputation of each institution.
Most of them are actually running COBOL codebases from the 70's on modern mainframe hardware. Unlike most desktop operating systems (e.g., Windows, or Linux), both IBM and Unisys mainframes have had stable ABIs for decades.
Yeah, but they should've left in a romp in the woods with fair lady Goldberry. Is she an elf? Is she human? Let's find out together on-screen... Proooot!:-)
(1) Fellowship was good. Time compression and Bombadil removal understandable (what *is* he, anyway, a maia?). The Shire, Bree, Moria, and Rivendell were all brilliantly presented, and the main characters were introduced in an engaging way that was largely true to the book, at least in spirit. Though the council scenes (all versions) were a bit awkward. I like the extended version. The easter egg version wasn't bad, either. Heh.
(2) Two Towers was only an approximation of the book. Elves in Helm's Deep? WTF? Ents not being aware of obvious herbicidal mania occurring at their doorstep (as you say above) and not reacting properly. WTF? That said, I really liked the way the reunion with Gandalf in Fangorn was handled, and the Ents tearing up Saruman's stronghold around Orthanc was fun to watch. Do not (repeat NOT) piss off the tree herders!:-)
(3) Return was okay, but two glorious scenes from the book were completely missed: (a) The confrontation of Saruman by Gandalf and resulting staff breaking is absolutely classic in the books, but is only poorly attempted in the extended version and is almost totally unrecognizable in the theatrical release. (b) The scene with newly crowned Eomir raising up his sword in despair and defiance to the Corsairs coming up the Anduin just before Aragorn's banner unfurled in the breeze is a scene absolutely BEGGING for screen time, and it gets none. That is the turning point of the battle, and the point when hope replaces "we're fcsked" in Eomer's mind. And the dead saving Minas Tirith? Uh... WTF? The Battle of the Pellenor Fields was a victory of combined *HUMAN* force of arms (Gondor, Rohan, and the folks from the south)), not the sort of whoosh-and-you're-dead supernatural scene portrayed on screen. But the rest of it was not too bad. I don't even begrudge the chopping of the Scourge of the Shire scene, though to me it was the entire point of the LOTR story...
Even older dialects survive... I'm debugging an F77 program even as I type this (well, in between).:-) But that language works very well in the online transaction environment (OS2200, HVTIP, USAS) in which it is running. Airline mainframe tech tends to be old but very, very stable...:-):-)
Analog TV singles are a lot more resilient, though. You can still see many weak analog TV programs even though they might have a poor signal, while a digital signal tends to drop out when it gets too weak.
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Time to set up my boxes to reboot every day from LiveCDs. That'll show 'em. :-)
If you're gonna be pedantic, even the original humans in the Americas came from elsewhere. :-)
Might I politely suggest the newsgroup (well, Google Group for the unwashed heathen) called alt.folklore.computers? Use the "Groups" search on Google.
Hmmm. You appear to be forgetting three things:
(1) Many older (usually mainframe) architectures tend to have very stable ABIs, some of them going back multiple decades, and many of them still in production use. This is certainly true in both the IBM and Unisys mainframe worlds, for example, where both hardware and software architectures have roots in the 1960's.
(2) Because of #1, one doesn't have to be that old in order to accumulate significant experience with such older systems. I've personally worked with a lot of code written in the 1960's and 1970's on Unisys Clearpath Dorado boxes running OS2200, and most of that code is running right now on production systems for some fairly large corporations. Recompiled, but otherwise unchanged.
(3) A geek is a geek is a geek. I'm a mainframer by day, but I was playing with SLS in late 1992 with various 0.99 kernels (downloaded from a local Fido BBS) well before most of the rest of the audience here had ever heard of Linux. Just because I played with mainframe code during the day doesn't mean I couldn't be a full-fledged PC weenie at night, and experience with PC operating systems, UNIX, and mainframe OSes is not mutually exclusive. I know many people in the same boat, and most of them read Slashdot.
Thankfully, that disconnect isn't complete. There are corners of the computing universe where the old guard is still remembered and their experience and tenants valued. :)
My newer 37" Vizio LCD TV takes far less power when it's "off" than the older 19" CRT television it's replacing. FWIW.
I just finished writing an F77 program here at work. Just a fairly small mainframe transaction (around 2000 lines of code including fairly extensive comments). My last compile of this code was 15:21:20 GMT on 14 April 08, which was just over two weeks ago. :-)
FWIW, Fortran is still used heavily in the airline industry. Generating optimal flight plans, doing weight and balance and optimal flap/thrust calculations, etc. We had between 10 and 20 million LOC in Fortran at NWA, I'd estimate, and that includes the "new" flight planning system.
Yes, you're right. I should have been more precise and said "computer storage media (which are typically binary in nature)", not just "computing", which as you note contains a number of exceptions to my assertion.
Huh. Okay. That's something I can actually check out. It does look like a fairly standard coin cell, too.
Thank you for the correction and the suggestion! :-)
What? SymStream and SuperSleuth aren't on the list??!? Man, I gotta update...
Lucky you. The mommyboard battery on the older Compaq Deskpro I have at home is spot-welded in place. :-(
Hey, some people call Microsoft an "innovative" "technology" company, so anything can happen. :-)
It isn't my fault that overexposure to SI units causes brain atrophy.
Honestly? No.
Heh. No, it isn't that complicated.
The distinction is a trivial one to make unless one is dense beyond repair. Telecommunications is not storage, and drive manufacturers are abusing a term to their advantage (not the first time that marketing has abused termsUse what you want. I think those newfangled UNIX boxes are cute, too. :-)
Good for you. Welcome to Slashdot -- contrary opinions are welcome here. :-)
Such decorations are prefectly appropriate when one is feigning annoyance with something in a message. Or is humor something which is also beyond your grasp?
While I actually do think the change to the new SI units is stupid, for example, I also happen to understand the justification. However, part of me is sad that the successful context-sensitive use of the previous terms in the industry is being removed for what I consider overly pedantic reasons. The existing terms worked just fine where it mattered, and in some senses the creation of the new SI prefixes smacks more of political correctness than an actual need in the industry for those terms. It's a solution in search of a problem, IMSNShO.
It's a very common term in communications technical documents, various RFCs, etc., where data transfer between multiple dissimilar platforms is a not infrequent occurrence. I've even seen the term used in modem documentation for end users. Do a search on Google sometime; it might be educational. Seriously.
Language is typically defined by usage, not the other way around. Unless you're the French, perhaps. :-)
... except when it came to laypeople who largely didn't understand what was described in the first place. When that happened, we just told them that bigger is better and moved on...
:-)
Remember that "kilo" *did* (and does) mean 1024 in a computing context. Everybody understood that who was involved on a technical level. Everybody. There was no miscommunication in the general case
Your comment about octet confuses and annoys me. Go away.
Note to self: b != 8. :-)
Shh... The submitter is trying to impose those trendy "base 2" SI prefixes on us in spite of 40+ years of prior art to the contrary. Another case of ivory tower types not being sophisticated enough to grok current industry usage, methinks...
:-) :-)
And don't even get me started on folks who assume a byte is always eight (b) bits. There's a reason folks in the Real World use the term "octet", people. Really.
Sheesh!
Without a reference implementation, how do you know a standard is valid?
When I went to college in Minnesota 25 years ago, two of the local state universities (Mankato and St. Cloud) had Computer Science programs with very good local reputations, so there was a certain amount of positive vibe that went along with a degree from those schools (as well as a degree from the U of Minn).
:-)
I suspect the name "Mankato State" means fairly the state of MN, however.
That said -- sometimes the institution you graduate from does matter. If a company already has people from a given school and has had a positive experience with those people, they might choose to hire someone else from that school if all other factors are roughly equivalent.
Does a degree from a tech school carry more weight than one from a liberal arts college. I think it depends on the reputation of each institution.
ODF certainly has its flaws, but:
(1) ODF wasn't rammed through a "fast track" process against the wishes of many committee members, unlike OOXML, and
(2) ODF can actually be implemented by third parties as written. Good luck doing that with OOXML...
Most of them are actually running COBOL codebases from the 70's on modern mainframe hardware. Unlike most desktop operating systems (e.g., Windows, or Linux), both IBM and Unisys mainframes have had stable ABIs for decades.
Yeah, but they should've left in a romp in the woods with fair lady Goldberry. Is she an elf? Is she human? Let's find out together on-screen... Proooot! :-)
(1) Fellowship was good. Time compression and Bombadil removal understandable (what *is* he, anyway, a maia?). The Shire, Bree, Moria, and Rivendell were all brilliantly presented, and the main characters were introduced in an engaging way that was largely true to the book, at least in spirit. Though the council scenes (all versions) were a bit awkward. I like the extended version. The easter egg version wasn't bad, either. Heh.
:-)
(2) Two Towers was only an approximation of the book. Elves in Helm's Deep? WTF? Ents not being aware of obvious herbicidal mania occurring at their doorstep (as you say above) and not reacting properly. WTF? That said, I really liked the way the reunion with Gandalf in Fangorn was handled, and the Ents tearing up Saruman's stronghold around Orthanc was fun to watch. Do not (repeat NOT) piss off the tree herders!
(3) Return was okay, but two glorious scenes from the book were completely missed: (a) The confrontation of Saruman by Gandalf and resulting staff breaking is absolutely classic in the books, but is only poorly attempted in the extended version and is almost totally unrecognizable in the theatrical release. (b) The scene with newly crowned Eomir raising up his sword in despair and defiance to the Corsairs coming up the Anduin just before Aragorn's banner unfurled in the breeze is a scene absolutely BEGGING for screen time, and it gets none. That is the turning point of the battle, and the point when hope replaces "we're fcsked" in Eomer's mind. And the dead saving Minas Tirith? Uh... WTF? The Battle of the Pellenor Fields was a victory of combined *HUMAN* force of arms (Gondor, Rohan, and the folks from the south)), not the sort of whoosh-and-you're-dead supernatural scene portrayed on screen. But the rest of it was not too bad. I don't even begrudge the chopping of the Scourge of the Shire scene, though to me it was the entire point of the LOTR story...
I think you misspelled "end users"... :-)
Even older dialects survive ... I'm debugging an F77 program even as I type this (well, in between). :-) But that language works very well in the online transaction environment (OS2200, HVTIP, USAS) in which it is running. Airline mainframe tech tends to be old but very, very stable... :-) :-)
Analog TV singles are a lot more resilient, though. You can still see many weak analog TV programs even though they might have a poor signal, while a digital signal tends to drop out when it gets too weak.
Mainframes are freight trains, personal computers are sports cars, and little UNIX boxes are trucks. :-)