First off, this isn't going to save anything in the way of electricity. Somebody's smoking crack on that one.
Other than those motors that people forget to shutoff. But if that's the case, why aren't they controlled by a PLC already?
This network would (hopefully) only be used to annunciate faults/transmit data. They wouldn't be used for control of the equipment (that is until some smooth-talking salesman convinced some idiot to do so). So cracking into the network with dreams of pulling a "Suki" would be a bit farfetched.
And surprise, surprise, much of our newer equipment is already on the network. So worrying about this is peanuts compared to the potential cockup of having your equipment rooted. And we have had systems nearly go down when someone without authorization hooked up to our network and spread a worm. The PLC was getting hammered so hard that it was causing the equipment to act erratically.
This in conjunction with the spread of OSes that are "off the shelf" (be they Windows or be they Linux) instead of being designed solely for the purpose of running the PLC (Programmable Logic Controller) is a disaster waiting to happen. Add consumer hardware to the mix and things get real interesting.
Case in point, not too long ago we had the plant shut down when someone moved a PC to get the serial number off it for an audit. This would not have happened if the equipment was controlled using industrial hardware.
But it was amusing...
However, this will help by way of allowing the plant to monitor motors and allow maintenance to replace/repair them at their convenience. That's a good thing:)
Well, yeah, it changes. Especially when the smoke leaks out.
But the idea is to tend your data over time to get a picture of when things are going south.
And transmitting a reading once every fifteen minutes would keep the power requirments way down (and that's more than enough data for most applications).
Actually the simplest thing would be to run one of the legs of the motor through a CT (Current Transformer) to come up with not only the power to run the device, but the current consumption of the motor as well.
By using three CT's you can get rotation, balance, and ground fault data as well. And these devices currently exist We use them by the hundreds (but not for transmitting data). It would be a small jump in design to use these devices to generate power as well.
You would then use this power to not only power the wireless link, but to power the accelerometers (vibration analysis) and the pyrometer (overtemp switch) as well.
I don't think that the intent was ever to control the equipment, only to monitor it. That won't stop some dumbass from trying to implement a version where the system is also controlled via the network as well.
We currently do this on a "closed-source" AGV system (PLC programs are traditionally open-source in that the code never gets compiled or copyrighted). The manufacturer of the AGV's, Controls Engineering of Ann Arbor, uses a wireless network to tell the AGV's to stop/go. When this doesn't work in conjunction with the overhead conveyors we are left with pieces on the floor. A leaky microwave is enough to screw them up.
Since CEC has total control over the software we are forced to beg for our bug fixes and feature upgrades. Something to ponder before jumping in headfirst into a closed monitoring system.
Overall I think that this mesh network is a Good Thing (TM) in that you will know long before a motor goes out that there is a problem. And I have no problem with gathering this data by way of external sources (rather than the traditional "pipe and wire" approach).
Where I see a problem is that the Systems folks will want to take control of the network and maintain it when it really doesn't fall into their field of expertise (and when that happens, us Controls guys will have to show up and sort out their problems just like we do now for the other systems that they really shouldn't have control over).
Well, I work for GM at Saturn. And we build cars:)
And yeah, I'm a PLC jockey, so most of the code I write is ladder logic (check out www.plcs.net if you are interested). I also serve as one of the troubleshooters so I fool with hardware as well (tonight it's a couple of 20hp 480 drives).
As for the skillet, that's a cross between a skid and a pallet.
And yup, we still give tours, so if you're ever down this way stop in:)
I'm currently in the throes of adding pneumatic couplings and upgrading drives to one of our lifts. Up until about 9pm last night I didn't think the damn thing would ever move.
Then I noticed that I was telling it to go up and down at the same time...
Which time? I'm the guy who (unintentionally) wrecked the first Saturn ever wrecked (job #65). Since then I've wrecked one other (job 2 million and something), so my track record isn't that bad:)
Most of the time you don't actually break something (be it product or be it equipment), but fixing the bug and getting everything rolling again takes time.
And since the "value" of the product that is running on the line is about $5000 a minute, time is indeed money.
I've probably had a couple 1+ hour breakdowns, but this doesn't even compare to the time my buddies plant went down for three days x 2 shifts per day ($14M).
They were Lear-jetting parts in on a daily basis (they kept blowing up the new stuff and didn't seem to have the sense to order spares). Ron would show up at the service entrance at the airport to pick them up and it got to the point where the guys would just open the gates when he drove up:)
My most recent one was when we changed the line speed of the skillet line and the thumbwheel switch messed up and opened up the 8's bit in the ten's digit (faulty thumbwheel switch) so that instead of running at 42 jobs an hour it was trying to run at 80 JPH (it would have tried to run at 122 but it's limited in the software to 80 JPH)
This isn't about "ugly Americans" it's about "ugly Brazilians" (yeah, who would have thought).
Imagine yourself at a restaurant and some strangers show up, taking the empty seats at your table, and then hijack the conversation between you and your friend. So you get up, move to another table, and here they come again. No matter where you go, they are right there with you.
So you complain to the management about it, and they explain that since there are more of them than you then it isn't a problem - ya gotta love democracy...
So are you at fault because you want to have a quiet conversation with your friend? Isn't this what this service is about?
Umm, and how is it handled in forums and lists? Deleted posts? Yup...
Okay, this is going to sound like a troll, but what does Slack have that makes it better than a more "polished" distro? With the one that I use, I slap the DVD in and it starts chugging away (after I do my own partitions manually of course, and select what software I want first).
Configuration is not too much more than clicky here and clicky there.
Before I get lambasted for running a "dumbed-down" distro (or being dumbed-down myself), once installed I do everything else with my favorite tools -- the command line & mc. And don't get me wrong, Slack was my very first:) I started with Slack v3.0 and couldn't get it going, tried again with 3.1 and "many" things started to work:)
And who could forget copying all those damn floppies:)
The problem will be re-writing all the programs that only allow X number of characters for the VIN. It's not that big a deal to change a line or two in each program, but collectively it's a pain. I doubt if any two states use the same program. I don't think it's as big a problem as the article says.
The problem will be re-writing all the programs that only allow X number of characters for the VIN. It's not that big a deal to change a line or two in each program, but collectively it's a pain. I doubt if any two states use the same program. I don't think it's as big a problem as the article says.
Well... I suppose to a certain degree. We have some (PLC) programs that rely on the VIN number (usually read into the PLC by way of a scanner), but I'm pretty sure that we use our own internal sequence number for almost everything since there is no guarantee that the VIN numbers will be in sequence.
I didn't know about changing the block number. Interesting:)
And on the equipment that does two out of the three "stampings".
I work in the Vehicle Systems building at one of GM's assembly plants, and in our building we do the VIN number that you see under the windshield and the stamping on the frame in a "secret" location (right there under the seats).
The VIN tag that gets riveted to the dash is etched using a special machine made in Germany. Every GM plant in America (and probably every GM plant in the world) has, or will have, two of these machines each.
The laser etcher shuttles an individual tag into a fixture where it gets etched, and then shuttles it out to a box where they are picked up and brought down to the line. It's all automatic other than the loading and the unloading of the tags.
IIRC, the guy on the line who attaches these has the extra responsibility of making sure that:
a) No tags are lost. b) Tags are attached in the proper sequence. c) No rivets are lost. d) Etched side up.:)
Any missing tags or rivets will bring about the Feds. It's a big deal. Any tags that are mis-etched or damaged are collected and destroyed. Trust me, it's a big deal.
BTW, the rivets are a special one-of-a-kind design that you can't buy. I suppose the Chinese will counterfeit them any day now...
The laser etcher gets its sequence from our computers in the sky, very simple. So simple in fact that the addition of a couple extra digits is trivial.
Will the VIN etcher handle the extra digits? Most likely. We would have had to be dumbasses to buy something that wouldn't.
As a GM employe (not two e's at the end, which is another story) I put our chances at 50-50.
As for the VIN on the body, it gets there by way of the pin stamper. The pin stamper has a number of pins that are driven via air pressure and they stamp the crossbrace just behind the seats. This isn't *as* trivial as the VIN etcher, but it really isn't that bad. Basically a wider fixture with a couple of extra pins (and these might not even be necessary).
As for the engine, I can't speak with any authority on that, I don't even know where it's stamped at. But I imagine that at the most it would require a larger pad to accept the stamping (and no, I don't believe we are going to change our fonts anytime soon so there's no hope for scrunching it down).
Keep in mind that we make engineering changes all of the time, this really isn't much more than that.
So from a hardware standpoint (as one of the guys who works on these things) I really don't understand where Mr. Proefke is coming from.
Slashdot Mirror
Isn't IBM in the business of helping other companies outsource work?
Business must be good...
John
Narc?
Has a nice ring to it.
John
Too true
But when was the last time that you had a PLC lockup for no reason? Okay, excluding Allen-Bradley
Kudo's for the sig
John
First off, this isn't going to save anything in the way of electricity. Somebody's smoking crack on that one.
:)
Other than those motors that people forget to shutoff. But if that's the case, why aren't they controlled by a PLC already?
This network would (hopefully) only be used to annunciate faults/transmit data. They wouldn't be used for control of the equipment (that is until some smooth-talking salesman convinced some idiot to do so). So cracking into the network with dreams of pulling a "Suki" would be a bit farfetched.
And surprise, surprise, much of our newer equipment is already on the network. So worrying about this is peanuts compared to the potential cockup of having your equipment rooted. And we have had systems nearly go down when someone without authorization hooked up to our network and spread a worm. The PLC was getting hammered so hard that it was causing the equipment to act erratically.
This in conjunction with the spread of OSes that are "off the shelf" (be they Windows or be they Linux) instead of being designed solely for the purpose of running the PLC (Programmable Logic Controller) is a disaster waiting to happen. Add consumer hardware to the mix and things get real interesting.
Case in point, not too long ago we had the plant shut down when someone moved a PC to get the serial number off it for an audit. This would not have happened if the equipment was controlled using industrial hardware.
But it was amusing...
However, this will help by way of allowing the plant to monitor motors and allow maintenance to replace/repair them at their convenience. That's a good thing
John
Yeah I don't see much in the way of energy savings either.
The motors will still have to be on to use them. Reporting back isn't going to change any of that.
I read that part as marketing hype. Still, it's a good idea.
John
Well, yeah, it changes. Especially when the smoke leaks out.
But the idea is to tend your data over time to get a picture of when things are going south.
And transmitting a reading once every fifteen minutes would keep the power requirments way down (and that's more than enough data for most applications).
John
Actually the simplest thing would be to run one of the legs of the motor through a CT (Current Transformer) to come up with not only the power to run the device, but the current consumption of the motor as well.
By using three CT's you can get rotation, balance, and ground fault data as well. And these devices currently exist We use them by the hundreds (but not for transmitting data). It would be a small jump in design to use these devices to generate power as well.
You would then use this power to not only power the wireless link, but to power the accelerometers (vibration analysis) and the pyrometer (overtemp switch) as well.
This of course applies to AC motors...
John
I don't think that the intent was ever to control the equipment, only to monitor it. That won't stop some dumbass from trying to implement a version where the system is also controlled via the network as well.
We currently do this on a "closed-source" AGV system (PLC programs are traditionally open-source in that the code never gets compiled or copyrighted). The manufacturer of the AGV's, Controls Engineering of Ann Arbor, uses a wireless network to tell the AGV's to stop/go. When this doesn't work in conjunction with the overhead conveyors we are left with pieces on the floor. A leaky microwave is enough to screw them up.
Since CEC has total control over the software we are forced to beg for our bug fixes and feature upgrades. Something to ponder before jumping in headfirst into a closed monitoring system.
Overall I think that this mesh network is a Good Thing (TM) in that you will know long before a motor goes out that there is a problem. And I have no problem with gathering this data by way of external sources (rather than the traditional "pipe and wire" approach).
Where I see a problem is that the Systems folks will want to take control of the network and maintain it when it really doesn't fall into their field of expertise (and when that happens, us Controls guys will have to show up and sort out their problems just like we do now for the other systems that they really shouldn't have control over).
John
That's the way I read it, Itanic is a lame duck and Intel is simply trying to save as much face as possible.
John
Oh come on, you could be reading a dupe about Kevin Rose load testing Gmail.
John
Well, I work for GM at Saturn. And we build cars :)
:)
And yeah, I'm a PLC jockey, so most of the code I write is ladder logic (check out www.plcs.net if you are interested). I also serve as one of the troubleshooters so I fool with hardware as well (tonight it's a couple of 20hp 480 drives).
As for the skillet, that's a cross between a skid and a pallet.
And yup, we still give tours, so if you're ever down this way stop in
John
Yikes! Holy crap!
:)
I'm currently in the throes of adding pneumatic couplings and upgrading drives to one of our lifts. Up until about 9pm last night I didn't think the damn thing would ever move.
Then I noticed that I was telling it to go up and down at the same time...
Today is a much better day
John
Which time? I'm the guy who (unintentionally) wrecked the first Saturn ever wrecked (job #65). Since then I've wrecked one other (job 2 million and something), so my track record isn't that bad :)
:)
:)
Most of the time you don't actually break something (be it product or be it equipment), but fixing the bug and getting everything rolling again takes time.
And since the "value" of the product that is running on the line is about $5000 a minute, time is indeed money.
I've probably had a couple 1+ hour breakdowns, but this doesn't even compare to the time my buddies plant went down for three days x 2 shifts per day ($14M).
They were Lear-jetting parts in on a daily basis (they kept blowing up the new stuff and didn't seem to have the sense to order spares). Ron would show up at the service entrance at the airport to pick them up and it got to the point where the guys would just open the gates when he drove up
My most recent one was when we changed the line speed of the skillet line and the thumbwheel switch messed up and opened up the 8's bit in the ten's digit (faulty thumbwheel switch) so that instead of running at 42 jobs an hour it was trying to run at 80 JPH (it would have tried to run at 122 but it's limited in the software to 80 JPH)
Zoom zoom.
Oh wait, that's the other guys
John
13 hours and 51 minutes? I thought that was per day!
Lightweights.
This isn't about "ugly Americans" it's about "ugly Brazilians" (yeah, who would have thought).
Imagine yourself at a restaurant and some strangers show up, taking the empty seats at your table, and then hijack the conversation between you and your friend. So you get up, move to another table, and here they come again. No matter where you go, they are right there with you.
So you complain to the management about it, and they explain that since there are more of them than you then it isn't a problem - ya gotta love democracy...
So are you at fault because you want to have a quiet conversation with your friend? Isn't this what this service is about?
Umm, and how is it handled in forums and lists? Deleted posts? Yup...
John
Okay, this is going to sound like a troll, but what does Slack have that makes it better than a more "polished" distro? With the one that I use, I slap the DVD in and it starts chugging away (after I do my own partitions manually of course, and select what software I want first).
:) I started with Slack v3.0 and couldn't get it going, tried again with 3.1 and "many" things started to work :)
:)
Configuration is not too much more than clicky here and clicky there.
Before I get lambasted for running a "dumbed-down" distro (or being dumbed-down myself), once installed I do everything else with my favorite tools -- the command line & mc. And don't get me wrong, Slack was my very first
And who could forget copying all those damn floppies
So what's new with Slackware?
John
Are you saying you could love a kid that hasn't been born yet? What do you love about them?
Gee, I don't know. But I suppose fortunately for both of us somebody did...
Well, just the kid...
There's always mass flow sensors that use the coriolis effect. These don't care what the volume is, and should be right on regardless of temperature.
http://www.emersonprocess.com/micromotion/
Oh, duh!
You mean after it leaves the plant.
How silly of me
Well... I suppose to a certain degree. We have some (PLC) programs that rely on the VIN number (usually read into the PLC by way of a scanner), but I'm pretty sure that we use our own internal sequence number for almost everything since there is no guarantee that the VIN numbers will be in sequence.
I didn't know about changing the block number. Interesting
And on the equipment that does two out of the three "stampings".
:)
I work in the Vehicle Systems building at one of GM's assembly plants, and in our building we do the VIN number that you see under the windshield and the stamping on the frame in a "secret" location (right there under the seats).
The VIN tag that gets riveted to the dash is etched using a special machine made in Germany. Every GM plant in America (and probably every GM plant in the world) has, or will have, two of these machines each.
The laser etcher shuttles an individual tag into a fixture where it gets etched, and then shuttles it out to a box where they are picked up and brought down to the line. It's all automatic other than the loading and the unloading of the tags.
IIRC, the guy on the line who attaches these has the extra responsibility of making sure that:
a) No tags are lost.
b) Tags are attached in the proper sequence.
c) No rivets are lost.
d) Etched side up.
Any missing tags or rivets will bring about the Feds. It's a big deal. Any tags that are mis-etched or damaged are collected and destroyed. Trust me, it's a big deal.
BTW, the rivets are a special one-of-a-kind design that you can't buy. I suppose the Chinese will counterfeit them any day now...
The laser etcher gets its sequence from our computers in the sky, very simple. So simple in fact that the addition of a couple extra digits is trivial.
Will the VIN etcher handle the extra digits? Most likely. We would have had to be dumbasses to buy something that wouldn't.
As a GM employe (not two e's at the end, which is another story) I put our chances at 50-50.
As for the VIN on the body, it gets there by way of the pin stamper. The pin stamper has a number of pins that are driven via air pressure and they stamp the crossbrace just behind the seats. This isn't *as* trivial as the VIN etcher, but it really isn't that bad. Basically a wider fixture with a couple of extra pins (and these might not even be necessary).
As for the engine, I can't speak with any authority on that, I don't even know where it's stamped at. But I imagine that at the most it would require a larger pad to accept the stamping (and no, I don't believe we are going to change our fonts anytime soon so there's no hope for scrunching it down).
Keep in mind that we make engineering changes all of the time , this really isn't much more than that.
So from a hardware standpoint (as one of the guys who works on these things) I really don't understand where Mr. Proefke is coming from.
Okay, so now you know.
Very cool! Like the AC said, this should be a article not a link :)
:)
So when do we get an automatic card changer for it?
And a Zaurus (C860) port of the curling game would be nice too
John
That Google hits should be more relevant.
It must be a fucking slow newsday to bring up shit like this. Who gives a damn one way or the other?
And no, I hate Gnome people for all of the right reasons. They can't code and their mothers dress them funny.