Heh, I think we're wholly in agreement on what constitutes "freedom", just describing it from different angles:)
yeah, I think we're on the same page mostly... but I'm still not sure if you're saying that freedom comes from money or that money comes from freedom.. the second is my position.
I suspect NO political party's ideals can survive a long period of being in power; the very position corrupts them.:(
Given our current 1 party system and complete lack of transparency.. I have to agree. But if our democracy was a true market place of ideas, with many parties actually having real debates about real issues, each party would tend to stay true to it's ideals and it's base. Unfortunately I think keeping varied opinions out of our government is of the utmost importance to the Republicats and Depublicans.
I do contend that there is NO freedom without money. With money, you can *afford* freedom of the press, freedom of movement, etc. Without money, you're pretty much confined to the village where you were born, and to word of mouth.
You always have the freedom to make money... Not having money is a temporary problem if you have freedom and motivation. It's not always easy, but people do it every day, despite our society and government trying to make poverty into a disability that can only be cured by dependency on the state.
Steve helped make nature, conservation and animals fun for an entire generation of people. He helped change the nature and scope of tourism in Australia. He changed the way educational TV is done. I'll miss him.
Some people like their jobs... and don't just do the bare minimum to pay the bills.. maybe you just need a new job? If you can't do your job as well as other people and expect to get the same rewards... then make threatening phone calls to another employees house... you deserve to go to jail.. for being creepy.
"Time is the usual unit to measure effort put in. Most salaries are paid on time already."
uh... wrong..
effort:
1. The use of physical or mental energy to do something; exertion.
2. A difficult exertion of the strength or will: It was an effort to get up.
3. A usually earnest attempt: Make an effort to arrive promptly.
4. Something done or produced through exertion; an achievement: a play that was his finest effort.
5. Physics. Force applied against inertia.
Your model treats a lazy freeloader exactly the same as an ethical hard worker... and doesn't take into account effort at all... it's all about time... you're treating people like beasts of burden... where one falls in the field you replace it with another because they are exactly the same... interchangeable.. you want surfs...
"And so people get treated as slaves until they rebel, and then it begins over again."
people who act like slaves get treated thusly... although they're not... they always have choices... unless they're in your model... where they are a commodity and worth only as much as the lowest common denominator.
"Not true. The one employing get to choose who he wants to employ. He just can't use salary as a carrot to influence the one he is going emply, because the salary is set."
This brings up an interesting point... if no one can get paid more than anyone else.. what happens to all the profit a business makes? clearly the owner can't have it... so what is the incentive for running/owning/starting a business... to get a business off the ground takes an extreme commitment of time... you can't do it in 40 hours a week... and most owners start out by paying themselves less than they probably would earn working for someone else... why would they even bother in your model... you've taken away the concept of investing time...
"Hah, it will never again be a sellers market, except for a few lucky (best of something) people. If it were, we wouldn't have all these people working at poverty wages in the first place."
we have 25 million illegal immigrants because even for labor it's a sellers market... The minimum wage caused this explosive immigration and the massive market for under-the-table workers. People are losing their lives to come work these jobs...
"But if you worked hundred hour per week you could have saved it and retired much earlier. Nothing different than now, except of course that you wouldn't be able to exploit the minimum wage salary people by getting a disproportionate high compensation for your effort."
I still wouldn't have worked those hours... it's called opportunity cost.. I worked the hours expecting they would pay off 100 fold over the next decade... not earn 3% interest...
Market economy isn't human nature. It is an economic theory, and for goods you wil find few people that disagree with it. For salaries however, an increasing amount of people are growing tired of the explotation of the upper class. With the increasing wage differences in the US, it is a disaster waiting to happen. Human nature is not liking those that get more than you do for the same effort. This is the basis for your confusion... effort != time... that's all there is to it... an hour of sweeping is almost zero effort... an hour of reviewing court documents is hard mental work and requires not only that hour of effort but years and years of hard effort just to get to the point where that hour even means anything....
"And what I described is the same. You invest time and get paid for it. You just don't get paid more for your time than anyone else."
Then what is my incentive to be the best? Harder problems and better working conditions? Screw that... I'd work off the books and barter my time rather than work in that system.... which is how our system evolved in the first place... your communist model would fail miserably as it always does...
you said "I am more for wages that are mostly based on amount of work done"...
Now if I'm better at something than you... and we both do it for an hour... I've probably done more work than you... therefor I'm worth more.. even in your model..
I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the christian cult... or any other cult... Morality through fear of eternal damnation is no morality at all.
Selfishness is the root of the Invisible Hand Principle and is the largest force for good on the planet.
"One hour of floor sweeping is worth the same as one hour of engine repairs. It is the effort that matters."
but that's not the same amount of effort... it's about the amount of time... even within a single task people can give differing amounts of effort... they are worth exactly the same?
"This is the most difficult part. This is where the inefficency compared to market economy is visible. Different salaries should be an exception though, and only if there is a real problem getting workers for a certain occupation. Competing for the best of the best should be done by better working environments and problems, instead of salaries. If you are the best of best, you can pick and choose any job in your profession, while someone who isn't as good will have to choose between what is left. And if there is a boring job, that needs the best workers you are out of luck."
who gets to decide who is the best of the best? who gets first pick... the market is self ordering... your model requires someone with nearly perfect information to guide this process.
"I disagree. I stand by the idea that each human life is equally worth. By using a market you directly leave that idea behind."
lives are equal... but output... intelligence... physical prowess... preferences.. shapes... sizes... are all completely unequal... Some lives have more intrinsic value to society.... there's no way to equalize that.
"I also don't place that much faith in markets where the seller and buyer are so obviously on unequal footing."
The employment market? sometimes its a buyers market... sometimes it's a sellers market... it's always a sellers market if you're one of the best at something.
"And you should have gotten paid for those 4 years in college and all those hundred hour weeks, at the same hourly rate as someone how began working directly. If you are willing to work 100 hours, you should be paid for 100 hours. You will make 2.5 times the person who only works 40 hours per week."
I wouldn't have worked them if I was getting paid by the hour.. I was making an investment in my future... I want to stop "working" all together as soon as possible based on my success now.. I don't want to work an hourly wage until I die...
"Finally, before I leave this topic for good I would like to say that you can rest assured that you will never see any of this happening. The ruling classes (politicians and buisness leaders at this time) would never agree to have the same salary as anyone under them. It unfortunally seems to be human nature to peck on those below you in all ways possible."
none of it will happen because it would never work and it's completely against human nature... we exchange our labor and make investments with our time (on our terms, for the most part) to live the lives we want to live.
"I'll add one last thing to this rather pointless debate:)"
it's not pointless... hopefully it's something to think about... and at least it's entertaining.
"I was arguing this very point with an (older) colleague of mine, who has already paid off his home mortgage, and is now planning his retirement. We did some white board calculations which showed, that in real terms, had he been starting his working life now, he could expect to be working 15 years longer than he is planning to, purely to pay off his mortage while maintaining the standard of living he was accustomed to."
I can't really comment on that without understanding more of the circumstances and variables in your conversation... land is worth more now... they're not making more of that... maybe values have gone up even more in your area do to regional circumstances... but that's hardly proof of anything.
"As far as the requirement of a 'good' job to have children - how many generations since someone in your family tree was an unskilled labourer? Are you happy that they were somehow able to afford to have kids?"
probably every generation before my parents... there's a big difference between "unskilled" labor and a mcjob... my great grandfather cut down trees in the woods... started as a young man limbing fallen trees for a neighbor... and died with 10 employees and several pieces of large equipment... not to mention his large house, pool, and multiple cars... just a single example.. You can make a good living at nearly any trade.. especially if you learn the business well and pay attention.. not just try to do your 40 a week and go home..
actually.. I take back what I said about the mcjob... I worked at mcdonalds as a young man... the guy who owned the franchise was a high-school drop out who started working a register... he had opened his 3rd franchise at the age of 50. I don't have much sympathy for people "stuck" in a "dead end job"... it's what you make of it... get all the experience and knowledge you can out of a situation and leverage it to your advantage... my grandfather was NOT a smart man... his wife handled the money.. he just knew how to run a chain-saw and tell others how to do the same.
anyway... Minimally, one should be able to take care of themselves before considering bringing a life into the world to take care of... or have society take care of, as the case may be... is that to much to ask? No one NEEDS to have a child... that is a WANT. I mean... you don't necessarily even need a job.. you could live on some farm land in the country and just eat what you grow and trade for... just don't demand anything from me... I'm not responsible for anyone else's bad CHOICES.
"Who said anything about forcing equality on anyone. The thing under discussion is equal compensation for an equal amount of work. Something that is completely missing in todays society."
You're trying to force equality on labor! Who gets to decide how much floor sweeping is worth in engine repairs or safety management at a nuclear power plant? Neither people nor jobs are created equal.
"If it is difficult to find people qualified and willing to work in a certain occupation, that occupation could get higher salaries."
who makes that call in your model? the employer? the gov? It's difficult to find good people for any job... it's high compensation that gets you the best of the best.
"What I am against however is the arbitary setting of salaries, based on the idea that those higher up in the hierarchy are worth more. It is feudal thinking and is most likely the biggest source of unrest in society."
It's not arbitrary... it's the market value... except at the low end where it's set by government decree. And I shouldn't make the same as a fighter pilot... I should make what the market will accept for my skills... I spent 4 years in college and several years of hundred hour work weeks to get where I am today... I should be compensated for that devotion and drive... I'm worth every penny... I'll be damned if I should make the same as some guy who dropped out of school and went into a job that required 2 days of on the job training and then does his 40 hours every week and then goes home to watch NASCAR and According to Jim... (not talking about the pilot necessarily)... but speaking of the pilot... should he be paid the same as some guy flying in air shows who doesn't risk his life (as much) or have to land on a microscopic boat bobbing in the ocean?
"didn't mention it, because it went without saying. We were frequently on welfare, food stamps, and I always had reduced lunch at school. Every time we dipped below her ability to pay the bills, that was our last resort. She told me that being on welfare made her feel like a failure, and even working multiple jobs and having no life was a better fate."
At least she felt bad about it.. which is more than most who feel it's owed to them.. working multiple jobs and not having a life to get out of a bad situation is the RIGHT thing to do.
"This is not a what-if game: it's reality"
I was simply presenting alternatives that may or may not have caused a different outcome... As opposed to accepting that this was the only way things could have been... just because things suck right now doesn't mean you didn't have options.. as much as some people don't like to hear that.
"Regardless of what could have been done to avoid the situation in the first place, it happened. It always happens; human nature does not restrict itself to theoretical or philosophical imperatives of morality or ideal circumstance. Shit happens."
shit does happen... but lets not pretend it's fate.... there's a fairly small percentage of people that get into horrible situation through no fault of their own.. and I hope there are people in their area that are willing to give them a hand.
"Shit happens. We can either ignore the shit, and sweep it under the rug, or be caring human beings and clean it up."
And to you that instantly means taking money from our citizens at gun point to redistribute it to those who "need" it?... as opposed to letting us keep our money and support those causes we feel strongly about.
"We pay more for the war in Iraq every day than is ever given to charity or distributed by social programs. We prop up corporations with bad business plans with billions from the public coffers"
I don't think "we" (government) should be spending money on iraq... or supporting failing companies or industries... or social programs... or the war on drugs... or almost anything else they/we "do".
"yet as soon as someone suggests we show kindness to the less fortunate, there is outright revulsion and accusations against the listless and lazy poor. From a supposedly Christian Nation (tm) (the religion of peace and charity!), this sickens me, and proves that we are a society of self-serving opportunists and sanctimonious simpletons regardless of social status or economic position."
being Christian is a mental defect and has nothing to do with anything.... in fact it's probably a bigger force for suffering and evil than it is for good... but that's another discussion.
again... I'm all for basic human kindness and lending a hand.. can we just not do it at gun point? You use "self-serving" like it's an insult... but it's one of the most important traits we have.. it's what allows us to get above situation we are born into... it's what allows us to care for our families... doing what is best for yourself ultimately guides society... it's called the Invisible Hand Principle and it's a bigger force for good than any government could ever be.
If you think some (fairly large) percentage of people on welfare aren't lazy freeloaders, you're deluding yourself... The entire welfare system rewards the lazy and encourages the exploitation of the system... breading entire generations of people who think exploiting the system is "earning a living".. Privately run regional charities could better track the progress of those that it's helping and provide more localized and efficient services.
"Now excuse me, I have to go finish my plan on uniting all the world's religions in peace and harmony, ending war, and curing cancer so we can all sing and dance and play in this alternate dimension you think exists were nobody ever fucking needs help from anyone else because we're all geniuses capable of knowing everything and doing anything short of breaking the laws of physics."
Again, this isn't the discussion I wanted to have.. but...
"It is not forced equality because unlike the totalitarian socialist systems that grew up during the 20th century, there was no attempt to pretend that any of the often quite complex strata in a feudal society was in any way equal to those either below or above it"
If 98% of the population is treated exactly the same... by each-other and the "blessed" 2%... is that not forced equality? assuming in any situation where there is force involved there is someone who is doing the forcing... even in a modern forced equality system the "ruling class" lives better than those they purport to be equal to... saying they are part of the system instead of controlling it is merely lip service to the doctrine used to assert control.
Anyway... I don't think we're really arguing any more... "feudal societies" suck... and so do systems where anything other than your individual abilities and decisions dictate your place in said system.
"Absolutely. What about if I work 40 hrs per week at minimum wage? As it stands, I am likely to be living well below the poverty line, and this is what bothers me. Currently, only about 5% of people in the US are living on minimum wage, but the number is increasing, and the gap between minimum wage and minimum living wage is also increasing."
I'm not sure where you got the 5% number or the fact that it's an increasing number.. But I'll take your word for it.. If you're only working 40 hours a week at a minimum wage job... I'll contend you don't care about making your life better... work two jobs... save up for some night classes... learn a skill in your off time.. 40 hours a week at a minimum wage job is a stepping stone to something else.. not the end of the road... and if it is the end of the road.. you CERTAINLY shouldn't be having children as you hardly have the motivation to live your own life, much less help someone else live theirs... Is that even debatable? I'd love to hear a counterpoint.
As to the high "living wage".. I attribute that directly to the fact we have a minimum wage and various other ill-conceived public programs.
"Any civilisation that makes it impossible for a large percentage of their population to reproduce is unsustainable. And don't forget that educated, well-off individuals are much less likely to enter long term relationships, have fewer kids, and have them much later in life. There are many reasons why this is very bad, especially combined with the fact that people are living longer than ever, with increased medical costs the older you get."
large percentage? 5% on minimum wage? lets call it 15%... what percentage of those are too young to have children, too old to have children, no desire to have children, no partner with which to have children or on their way to something better at which time they plan to have children... I think alot.... so even if there's 5% of the population living in poverty that would like to have children... I think that's pretty damn low... and in reality, I think it's probably lower than 5%.
again... If you can't help yourself, I have no interest helping you have a child.. it doesn't make sense.... you probably couldn't do even a marginal job of raising the child anyway if you can't get yourself out of poverty.
1. Utterly lacking; devoid: Young recruits destitute of any experience. 2. Lacking resources or the means of subsistence; completely impoverished.
as bad as it sounded for you... you weren't destitute.
That's a sad story... but it has a happy ending.. I didn't see you mention government programs helping you out... your mom worked hard to provide for you and you not only got out of the situtation you became a successful and educated person...
I'm not going to pass judgement or pretend to know anything about your moms situation... But could she have done better for herself if she'd made better decisions? not having a child so young... not hooking up with a guy who might run out on her... staying in school... joining the army... It's not like fate or "god" decided she was going to end up in that tough spot... it was a long road to get there and a long road to get out.
It's sad that there is suffering in the world... especially when there are children involved.. but the worst possible answer is government programs and charity by gunpoint (same thing). minimum wage causes explosive illegal immegration, fewer jobs and a higher cost of living for everyone... welfare causes systemic laziness and teaches people how to survive by exploiting the system and in turn exploiting their neighbors. We can help eachother out (and do!) without the government getting involved.. all they do is steal our money, hire idiots and make the life more complicated.
I've never been homeless or even close to it.. but I've known people in a situtation not far from what you describe and I think my perspective is just fine.
"I suggest you do some reading on feudal societies, and the opportunities for individuality that were open to serfs, who made up the vast bulk of the people who lived in them."
I think we have a misunderstanding... I didn't think we were literally talking about feudalism... I thought you were making an analogy and calling our current society a feudalist type society... so I was still talking about forced equality in terms of pay/jobs, etc..
I'm not going to argue that surfdom was a good thing... it was slavery controlled by a few tyrants and pseudo spirituality... And I think it's an example of forced equality... and represents and extreme example of exactly what I'm arguing against.
that makes a pretty huge assumption... 98% of the population is brutally repressed? I think that's the situation under forced equality.. when what makes you an individual is basically taken from you. When your natural talents are used for someone else's idea of what is best/right.
Your argument seems to ignore the fact that in between the top 10% and bottom 10% is where everyone else lives. Just because there is some suffering doesn't mean the entire system is broken... You can't please all the people all the time.
inequality isn't forced, it's innate... we're not clones. A hierarchical society is a natural representation of this built in inequality. So yeah... forced equality is more ridiculous than natural inequality in any manifestation.
"Talking crap when you have absolutely no idea is basically saying"
dude... I'm the only one making real arguments here... your one liners and personal insults don't really qualify as saying anything at all... you're spewing propaganda with out even attempting to provide an original thought or back up your view point. but your bleeding heart leaders would be proud that you're getting all the good talking points in there "ignorant selfish idiot", "work like slaves", "privileged few", "live the life they WANT"... the brain washing is going quite well... 2+2=5....
"I am an ignorant selfish idiot who will tread over everyone else to get what I want"
You don't know anything about me... I'm no ignorant idiot... but I do cop to selfish... I want my life to be the best it can be... interestingly enough... that involves those around me... so I donate to local charities and contribute to my community in a positive way... I'm polite to people and lend a hand when I'm asked.... because doing what is best for me is also what is best for the community... Just because I'm not willing to rip out my own heart and hand it to the first drunk on the street I see... doesn't mean I don't care about people and their general welfare... I WANT people to have babies.. I WANT people to get better jobs... but I DONT OWE IT TO THEM!!!!
Everyone does have "a chance to live the life they want"... Merely existing doesn't entitle you to live whatever life you dream up in your head... Hard work does... a handful of people get lucky and are born into a better situation than others... but tough shit.. humans are not created equal... but we all have opportunities if we look and work for them.
Slashdot Mirror
No wonder he's an anonymous coward.. this comment says it better than I could:
d =19550581
http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=238779&ci
Amazing response.
yeah, I think we're on the same page mostly... but I'm still not sure if you're saying that freedom comes from money or that money comes from freedom.. the second is my position.
Given our current 1 party system and complete lack of transparency.. I have to agree. But if our democracy was a true market place of ideas, with many parties actually having real debates about real issues, each party would tend to stay true to it's ideals and it's base. Unfortunately I think keeping varied opinions out of our government is of the utmost importance to the Republicats and Depublicans.
To me, freedom is: life, liberty and property. And I'm basically a Libertarian, so that should fill in the blanks :)
It was your first sentence there that compelled me to respond.. "I do contend that there is NO freedom without money."
Money is merely a tool of exchange.. freedom is the only thing that makes it truly meaningful.
You always have the freedom to make money... Not having money is a temporary problem if you have freedom and motivation. It's not always easy, but people do it every day, despite our society and government trying to make poverty into a disability that can only be cured by dependency on the state.
You can use CastCluster to tag youtube and google video for download through itunes (or whatever)... *cough*Apple TV*cough*
d ing-this-article-httpwww.html
http://code.google.com/p/castcluster/
there are some screenshots of the bookmarklet injector thingy here:
http://castcluster.blogspot.com/2007/03/after-rea
Steve helped make nature, conservation and animals fun for an entire generation of people. He helped change the nature and scope of tourism in Australia. He changed the way educational TV is done. I'll miss him.
Some people like their jobs... and don't just do the bare minimum to pay the bills.. maybe you just need a new job? If you can't do your job as well as other people and expect to get the same rewards... then make threatening phone calls to another employees house... you deserve to go to jail.. for being creepy.
"Time is the usual unit to measure effort put in. Most salaries are paid on time already."
uh... wrong..
effort:
1. The use of physical or mental energy to do something; exertion.
2. A difficult exertion of the strength or will: It was an effort to get up.
3. A usually earnest attempt: Make an effort to arrive promptly.
4. Something done or produced through exertion; an achievement: a play that was his finest effort.
5. Physics. Force applied against inertia.
Your model treats a lazy freeloader exactly the same as an ethical hard worker... and doesn't take into account effort at all... it's all about time... you're treating people like beasts of burden... where one falls in the field you replace it with another because they are exactly the same... interchangeable.. you want surfs...
"And so people get treated as slaves until they rebel, and then it begins over again."
people who act like slaves get treated thusly... although they're not... they always have choices... unless they're in your model... where they are a commodity and worth only as much as the lowest common denominator.
"Not true. The one employing get to choose who he wants to employ. He just can't use salary as a carrot to influence the one he is going emply, because the salary is set."
This brings up an interesting point... if no one can get paid more than anyone else.. what happens to all the profit a business makes? clearly the owner can't have it... so what is the incentive for running/owning/starting a business... to get a business off the ground takes an extreme commitment of time... you can't do it in 40 hours a week... and most owners start out by paying themselves less than they probably would earn working for someone else... why would they even bother in your model... you've taken away the concept of investing time...
"Hah, it will never again be a sellers market, except for a few lucky (best of something) people. If it were, we wouldn't have all these people working at poverty wages in the first place."
we have 25 million illegal immigrants because even for labor it's a sellers market... The minimum wage caused this explosive immigration and the massive market for under-the-table workers. People are losing their lives to come work these jobs...
"But if you worked hundred hour per week you could have saved it and retired much earlier. Nothing different than now, except of course that you wouldn't be able to exploit the minimum wage salary people by getting a disproportionate high compensation for your effort."
I still wouldn't have worked those hours... it's called opportunity cost.. I worked the hours expecting they would pay off 100 fold over the next decade... not earn 3% interest...
Market economy isn't human nature. It is an economic theory, and for goods you wil find few people that disagree with it. For salaries however, an increasing amount of people are growing tired of the explotation of the upper class. With the increasing wage differences in the US, it is a disaster waiting to happen. Human nature is not liking those that get more than you do for the same effort.
This is the basis for your confusion... effort != time... that's all there is to it... an hour of sweeping is almost zero effort... an hour of reviewing court documents is hard mental work and requires not only that hour of effort but years and years of hard effort just to get to the point where that hour even means anything....
"And what I described is the same. You invest time and get paid for it. You just don't get paid more for your time than anyone else."
Then what is my incentive to be the best? Harder problems and better working conditions? Screw that... I'd work off the books and barter my time rather than work in that system.... which is how our system evolved in the first place... your communist model would fail miserably as it always does...
you said "I am more for wages that are mostly based on amount of work done"...
Now if I'm better at something than you... and we both do it for an hour... I've probably done more work than you... therefor I'm worth more.. even in your model..
I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the christian cult... or any other cult... Morality through fear of eternal damnation is no morality at all.
Selfishness is the root of the Invisible Hand Principle and is the largest force for good on the planet.
"I am more for wages that are mostly based on amount of work done"
so the better you are at something (i.e. the more work you do), the more you get paid? interesting notion...
"with an adjustment for how popular the job is."
so... the harder something is... the more you get paid.. "popularity".... "supply/demand"...
I guess we agree....
"One hour of floor sweeping is worth the same as one hour of engine repairs. It is the effort that matters."
but that's not the same amount of effort... it's about the amount of time... even within a single task people can give differing amounts of effort... they are worth exactly the same?
"This is the most difficult part. This is where the inefficency compared to market economy is visible. Different salaries should be an exception though, and only if there is a real problem getting workers for a certain occupation. Competing for the best of the best should be done by better working environments and problems, instead of salaries. If you are the best of best, you can pick and choose any job in your profession, while someone who isn't as good will have to choose between what is left. And if there is a boring job, that needs the best workers you are out of luck."
who gets to decide who is the best of the best? who gets first pick... the market is self ordering... your model requires someone with nearly perfect information to guide this process.
"I disagree. I stand by the idea that each human life is equally worth. By using a market you directly leave that idea behind."
lives are equal... but output... intelligence... physical prowess... preferences.. shapes... sizes... are all completely unequal... Some lives have more intrinsic value to society.... there's no way to equalize that.
"I also don't place that much faith in markets where the seller and buyer are so obviously on unequal footing."
The employment market? sometimes its a buyers market... sometimes it's a sellers market... it's always a sellers market if you're one of the best at something.
"And you should have gotten paid for those 4 years in college and all those hundred hour weeks, at the same hourly rate as someone how began working directly. If you are willing to work 100 hours, you should be paid for 100 hours. You will make 2.5 times the person who only works 40 hours per week."
I wouldn't have worked them if I was getting paid by the hour.. I was making an investment in my future... I want to stop "working" all together as soon as possible based on my success now.. I don't want to work an hourly wage until I die...
"Finally, before I leave this topic for good I would like to say that you can rest assured that you will never see any of this happening. The ruling classes (politicians and buisness leaders at this time) would never agree to have the same salary as anyone under them. It unfortunally seems to be human nature to peck on those below you in all ways possible."
none of it will happen because it would never work and it's completely against human nature... we exchange our labor and make investments with our time (on our terms, for the most part) to live the lives we want to live.
"I'll add one last thing to this rather pointless debate :)"
it's not pointless... hopefully it's something to think about... and at least it's entertaining.
"I was arguing this very point with an (older) colleague of mine, who has already paid off his home mortgage, and is now planning his retirement. We did some white board calculations which showed, that in real terms, had he been starting his working life now, he could expect to be working 15 years longer than he is planning to, purely to pay off his mortage while maintaining the standard of living he was accustomed to."
I can't really comment on that without understanding more of the circumstances and variables in your conversation... land is worth more now... they're not making more of that... maybe values have gone up even more in your area do to regional circumstances... but that's hardly proof of anything.
"As far as the requirement of a 'good' job to have children - how many generations since someone in your family tree was an unskilled labourer? Are you happy that they were somehow able to afford to have kids?"
probably every generation before my parents... there's a big difference between "unskilled" labor and a mcjob... my great grandfather cut down trees in the woods... started as a young man limbing fallen trees for a neighbor... and died with 10 employees and several pieces of large equipment... not to mention his large house, pool, and multiple cars... just a single example.. You can make a good living at nearly any trade.. especially if you learn the business well and pay attention.. not just try to do your 40 a week and go home..
actually.. I take back what I said about the mcjob... I worked at mcdonalds as a young man... the guy who owned the franchise was a high-school drop out who started working a register... he had opened his 3rd franchise at the age of 50. I don't have much sympathy for people "stuck" in a "dead end job"... it's what you make of it... get all the experience and knowledge you can out of a situation and leverage it to your advantage... my grandfather was NOT a smart man... his wife handled the money.. he just knew how to run a chain-saw and tell others how to do the same.
anyway... Minimally, one should be able to take care of themselves before considering bringing a life into the world to take care of... or have society take care of, as the case may be... is that to much to ask? No one NEEDS to have a child... that is a WANT. I mean... you don't necessarily even need a job.. you could live on some farm land in the country and just eat what you grow and trade for... just don't demand anything from me... I'm not responsible for anyone else's bad CHOICES.
"Who said anything about forcing equality on anyone. The thing under discussion is equal compensation for an equal amount of work. Something that is completely missing in todays society."
You're trying to force equality on labor! Who gets to decide how much floor sweeping is worth in engine repairs or safety management at a nuclear power plant? Neither people nor jobs are created equal.
"If it is difficult to find people qualified and willing to work in a certain occupation, that occupation could get higher salaries."
who makes that call in your model? the employer? the gov? It's difficult to find good people for any job... it's high compensation that gets you the best of the best.
"What I am against however is the arbitary setting of salaries, based on the idea that those higher up in the hierarchy are worth more. It is feudal thinking and is most likely the biggest source of unrest in society."
It's not arbitrary... it's the market value... except at the low end where it's set by government decree. And I shouldn't make the same as a fighter pilot... I should make what the market will accept for my skills... I spent 4 years in college and several years of hundred hour work weeks to get where I am today... I should be compensated for that devotion and drive... I'm worth every penny... I'll be damned if I should make the same as some guy who dropped out of school and went into a job that required 2 days of on the job training and then does his 40 hours every week and then goes home to watch NASCAR and According to Jim... (not talking about the pilot necessarily)... but speaking of the pilot... should he be paid the same as some guy flying in air shows who doesn't risk his life (as much) or have to land on a microscopic boat bobbing in the ocean?
"didn't mention it, because it went without saying. We were frequently on welfare, food stamps, and I always had reduced lunch at school. Every time we dipped below her ability to pay the bills, that was our last resort. She told me that being on welfare made her feel like a failure, and even working multiple jobs and having no life was a better fate."
... as opposed to letting us keep our money and support those causes we feel strongly about.
At least she felt bad about it.. which is more than most who feel it's owed to them.. working multiple jobs and not having a life to get out of a bad situation is the RIGHT thing to do.
"This is not a what-if game: it's reality"
I was simply presenting alternatives that may or may not have caused a different outcome... As opposed to accepting that this was the only way things could have been... just because things suck right now doesn't mean you didn't have options.. as much as some people don't like to hear that.
"Regardless of what could have been done to avoid the situation in the first place, it happened. It always happens; human nature does not restrict itself to theoretical or philosophical imperatives of morality or ideal circumstance. Shit happens."
shit does happen... but lets not pretend it's fate.... there's a fairly small percentage of people that get into horrible situation through no fault of their own.. and I hope there are people in their area that are willing to give them a hand.
"Shit happens. We can either ignore the shit, and sweep it under the rug, or be caring human beings and clean it up."
And to you that instantly means taking money from our citizens at gun point to redistribute it to those who "need" it?
"We pay more for the war in Iraq every day than is ever given to charity or distributed by social programs. We prop up corporations with bad business plans with billions from the public coffers"
I don't think "we" (government) should be spending money on iraq... or supporting failing companies or industries... or social programs... or the war on drugs... or almost anything else they/we "do".
"yet as soon as someone suggests we show kindness to the less fortunate, there is outright revulsion and accusations against the listless and lazy poor. From a supposedly Christian Nation (tm) (the religion of peace and charity!), this sickens me, and proves that we are a society of self-serving opportunists and sanctimonious simpletons regardless of social status or economic position."
being Christian is a mental defect and has nothing to do with anything.... in fact it's probably a bigger force for suffering and evil than it is for good... but that's another discussion.
again... I'm all for basic human kindness and lending a hand.. can we just not do it at gun point? You use "self-serving" like it's an insult... but it's one of the most important traits we have.. it's what allows us to get above situation we are born into... it's what allows us to care for our families... doing what is best for yourself ultimately guides society... it's called the Invisible Hand Principle and it's a bigger force for good than any government could ever be.
If you think some (fairly large) percentage of people on welfare aren't lazy freeloaders, you're deluding yourself... The entire welfare system rewards the lazy and encourages the exploitation of the system... breading entire generations of people who think exploiting the system is "earning a living".. Privately run regional charities could better track the progress of those that it's helping and provide more localized and efficient services.
"Now excuse me, I have to go finish my plan on uniting all the world's religions in peace and harmony, ending war, and curing cancer so we can all sing and dance and play in this alternate dimension you think exists were nobody ever fucking needs help from anyone else because we're all geniuses capable of knowing everything and doing anything short of breaking the laws of physics."
Again, this isn't the discussion I wanted to have.. but...
"It is not forced equality because unlike the totalitarian socialist systems that grew up during the 20th century, there was no attempt to pretend that any of the often quite complex strata in a feudal society was in any way equal to those either below or above it"
If 98% of the population is treated exactly the same... by each-other and the "blessed" 2%... is that not forced equality? assuming in any situation where there is force involved there is someone who is doing the forcing... even in a modern forced equality system the "ruling class" lives better than those they purport to be equal to... saying they are part of the system instead of controlling it is merely lip service to the doctrine used to assert control.
Anyway... I don't think we're really arguing any more... "feudal societies" suck... and so do systems where anything other than your individual abilities and decisions dictate your place in said system.
"Absolutely. What about if I work 40 hrs per week at minimum wage? As it stands, I am likely to be living well below the poverty line, and this is what bothers me. Currently, only about 5% of people in the US are living on minimum wage, but the number is increasing, and the gap between minimum wage and minimum living wage is also increasing."
I'm not sure where you got the 5% number or the fact that it's an increasing number.. But I'll take your word for it.. If you're only working 40 hours a week at a minimum wage job... I'll contend you don't care about making your life better... work two jobs... save up for some night classes... learn a skill in your off time.. 40 hours a week at a minimum wage job is a stepping stone to something else.. not the end of the road... and if it is the end of the road.. you CERTAINLY shouldn't be having children as you hardly have the motivation to live your own life, much less help someone else live theirs... Is that even debatable? I'd love to hear a counterpoint.
As to the high "living wage".. I attribute that directly to the fact we have a minimum wage and various other ill-conceived public programs.
"Any civilisation that makes it impossible for a large percentage of their population to reproduce is unsustainable. And don't forget that educated, well-off individuals are much less likely to enter long term relationships, have fewer kids, and have them much later in life. There are many reasons why this is very bad, especially combined with the fact that people are living longer than ever, with increased medical costs the older you get."
large percentage? 5% on minimum wage? lets call it 15%... what percentage of those are too young to have children, too old to have children, no desire to have children, no partner with which to have children or on their way to something better at which time they plan to have children... I think alot.... so even if there's 5% of the population living in poverty that would like to have children... I think that's pretty damn low... and in reality, I think it's probably lower than 5%.
again... If you can't help yourself, I have no interest helping you have a child.. it doesn't make sense.... you probably couldn't do even a marginal job of raising the child anyway if you can't get yourself out of poverty.
destitute means:
1. Utterly lacking; devoid: Young recruits destitute of any experience.
2. Lacking resources or the means of subsistence; completely impoverished.
as bad as it sounded for you... you weren't destitute.
That's a sad story... but it has a happy ending.. I didn't see you mention government programs helping you out... your mom worked hard to provide for you and you not only got out of the situtation you became a successful and educated person...
I'm not going to pass judgement or pretend to know anything about your moms situation... But could she have done better for herself if she'd made better decisions? not having a child so young... not hooking up with a guy who might run out on her... staying in school... joining the army... It's not like fate or "god" decided she was going to end up in that tough spot... it was a long road to get there and a long road to get out.
It's sad that there is suffering in the world... especially when there are children involved.. but the worst possible answer is government programs and charity by gunpoint (same thing). minimum wage causes explosive illegal immegration, fewer jobs and a higher cost of living for everyone... welfare causes systemic laziness and teaches people how to survive by exploiting the system and in turn exploiting their neighbors. We can help eachother out (and do!) without the government getting involved.. all they do is steal our money, hire idiots and make the life more complicated.
I've never been homeless or even close to it.. but I've known people in a situtation not far from what you describe and I think my perspective is just fine.
"I suggest you do some reading on feudal societies, and the opportunities for individuality that were open to serfs, who made up the vast bulk of the people who lived in them."
I think we have a misunderstanding... I didn't think we were literally talking about feudalism... I thought you were making an analogy and calling our current society a feudalist type society... so I was still talking about forced equality in terms of pay/jobs, etc..
I'm not going to argue that surfdom was a good thing... it was slavery controlled by a few tyrants and pseudo spirituality... And I think it's an example of forced equality... and represents and extreme example of exactly what I'm arguing against.
that makes a pretty huge assumption... 98% of the population is brutally repressed? I think that's the situation under forced equality.. when what makes you an individual is basically taken from you. When your natural talents are used for someone else's idea of what is best/right.
Your argument seems to ignore the fact that in between the top 10% and bottom 10% is where everyone else lives. Just because there is some suffering doesn't mean the entire system is broken... You can't please all the people all the time.
inequality isn't forced, it's innate... we're not clones. A hierarchical society is a natural representation of this built in inequality. So yeah... forced equality is more ridiculous than natural inequality in any manifestation.
"Talking crap when you have absolutely no idea is basically saying"
dude... I'm the only one making real arguments here... your one liners and personal insults don't really qualify as saying anything at all... you're spewing propaganda with out even attempting to provide an original thought or back up your view point. but your bleeding heart leaders would be proud that you're getting all the good talking points in there "ignorant selfish idiot", "work like slaves", "privileged few", "live the life they WANT"... the brain washing is going quite well... 2+2=5....
"I am an ignorant selfish idiot who will tread over everyone else to get what I want"
You don't know anything about me... I'm no ignorant idiot... but I do cop to selfish... I want my life to be the best it can be... interestingly enough... that involves those around me... so I donate to local charities and contribute to my community in a positive way... I'm polite to people and lend a hand when I'm asked.... because doing what is best for me is also what is best for the community... Just because I'm not willing to rip out my own heart and hand it to the first drunk on the street I see... doesn't mean I don't care about people and their general welfare... I WANT people to have babies.. I WANT people to get better jobs... but I DONT OWE IT TO THEM!!!!
Everyone does have "a chance to live the life they want"... Merely existing doesn't entitle you to live whatever life you dream up in your head... Hard work does... a handful of people get lucky and are born into a better situation than others... but tough shit.. humans are not created equal... but we all have opportunities if we look and work for them.
Abortion isn't the only option... Although I do oppose the goverments involvement in it.