Mysticism claims to reveal truth. If something is true, that has consequences for the real world. If the set of things you can do knowing X is exactly the same as the set of things you could do not knowing X, then it's not really valid to say that X has a truth value at all. Mysticism therefore fails as a means for obtaining truth.
That is not argumentum ad consequentiam. Argumentum ad consequentiam is about desirable consequences. The benefits of empiricism are actual consequences.
And you're right, science has created a lot of technologies that kill billions too. The key point is that empiricism leads to knowledge that allows us to actually do things that we couldn't before. Mysticism does not.
Empiricism has lead to technologies that have saved and improved billions of lives. Mysticism has not. Is that circular? Maybe, but the fact remains that we are better off looking for proof than taking things on faith.
As it happens atheists know more about religion than religious types do. I assure you, we've been exposed to religion almost constantly our entire lives. But if you really think there's something more to it than make-believe, go ahead and try to explain it.
Yes religion can happily coexist with science. Mainly by retreating to areas that science hasn't fully explained yet, and refraining from making any verifiable predictions.
How can flaws in nature be an argument against creationism any more than they can be used against evolution theory, when evolution supposedly optimizes away flawed designs in the long run?
Microsoft was sued for antitrust violations before they started making political contributions. Now they contribute heavily to both parties and lobby the shit out of congress.
Nobody's suggesting that this prisoner be given an Xbox. The request was that he be allowed to purchase an Xbox. That's a bit less controversial. If we allow them books, why not other media as well?
If America's prison system is so soft that it encourages crime, then Scandanavia should be swarming with murderers. Finland has open prisons and a very low recidivism rate. On the other hand, the US has one of the toughest prison systems in the developed world, and we still have the highest crime rates. Your hypothesis does not fit the data.
Unfortunately, engineers aren't scientists. Engineering is all about learning rules and following them, not asking questions. Engineers are significantly more conservative than scientists, and engineers are often found behind anti-scientific movements, such as creationism.
What we really need are scientists in positions of power. People who understand that the world is messy, and that you're wrong more often than not. People who understand the value of data.
They aren't necessarily citizens. Even non-citizens within Israel can't vote. Same for the most countries.
Non-citizens in the US can go home. Non-citizens in the West Bank are home. Either grant them citizenship or autonomy.
The Muslim-controlled nations must really piss you off. You should also be against a Palestinian state, because it would definitely be created as an Arab Muslim state.
Yes, correct. A Muslim government is exactly as abhorrent as a Jewish government, in principle. In practice, they're much worse because of Sharia law.
I's pretty simple actually. They claim a Jewish identity as a state, respecting Jewish heritage and culture.
I'm not even sure what this means. Either they give preferential treatment to Jews or they don't. If they do, they're not a secular state. If they don't, they're not a Jewish state.
Then GP's assertion that a single state exists is false.
Israel holds military control over the area
What's the difference between that and a government?
Israel should have the right to exist as Jewish state as long as it protects the rights of religious minorities. The Muslims, with about 50 countries under their rule, just cannot stand the existence of one Jewish state.
I can't stand the existance of any state based on religion or ethnicity. The very concept is repugnant. Government should be based on the will of the people governed, no matter what religion or ethnicity they are.
The idea that Israel can be both a secular democratic state and a Jewish state simultaneously is classic doublethink.
Righthaven didn't even own the copyrights to the files they were suing about. I doubt they have much else. What really needs to happen is disbarment of their legal staff.
No. A state is defined by what it does, not by what it says it is. When the government acts outside of its constitutional bounds it becomes illegitimate.
If a large portion of the population is disenfranchised, it's not really a democratic state. If members of one religion have more rights than others, it's not really a secular state. Any state without universal suffrage and equal protection under the law is tyrannical.
What they have is a different attitude - to them the machine has a purpose, it's not a toy by itself
Play is the best way to learn. If you get a new tool, and your first reaction isn't "Sweet, let's see what this thing can do!", you're probably dumb. If you learn a tool, any tool, by simple rote memorization of the tasks you need to do, instead of understanding the theory behind the usage, then you're dumb.
they care about learning its fine details as much as most average geeks care about the difference between buckshot and birdshot and how to clean a shotgun blindfolded.
If you're going hunting and you don't know what sort of shot you're using and why, you're dumb. If you use a computer for a living and don't know how to open a text file, you're dumb.
Slashdot Mirror
Mysticism claims to reveal truth. If something is true, that has consequences for the real world. If the set of things you can do knowing X is exactly the same as the set of things you could do not knowing X, then it's not really valid to say that X has a truth value at all. Mysticism therefore fails as a means for obtaining truth.
That is not argumentum ad consequentiam. Argumentum ad consequentiam is about desirable consequences. The benefits of empiricism are actual consequences.
And you're right, science has created a lot of technologies that kill billions too. The key point is that empiricism leads to knowledge that allows us to actually do things that we couldn't before. Mysticism does not.
Empiricism has lead to technologies that have saved and improved billions of lives. Mysticism has not. Is that circular? Maybe, but the fact remains that we are better off looking for proof than taking things on faith.
In what way is belief without evidence unrelated to the rejection of the empirical?
I believe in Evolution. I don't think humans evolved from pond scum OR monkeys.
But you believe pond scum, monkeys, and humans, all share a common ancestor. Right?
I'm just pointing out that some folks with a deep faith are also actual scientists.
All this really demonstrates is the human capacity to hold two conflicting ideas in their head without experiencing cognitive dissonance.
As it happens atheists know more about religion than religious types do. I assure you, we've been exposed to religion almost constantly our entire lives. But if you really think there's something more to it than make-believe, go ahead and try to explain it.
Yes religion can happily coexist with science. Mainly by retreating to areas that science hasn't fully explained yet, and refraining from making any verifiable predictions.
How can flaws in nature be an argument against creationism any more than they can be used against evolution theory, when evolution supposedly optimizes away flawed designs in the long run?
Two words: Local minima.
Of course he attacked him. Religion is a fraud, and Haught is a fraudster. Why should he expect anything else?
It reads to me like someone didn't like getting called out for his fairy tale beliefs.
Microsoft was sued for antitrust violations before they started making political contributions. Now they contribute heavily to both parties and lobby the shit out of congress.
AC is Insightful and Informative.
And yet their murder rate is half that in the US.
Nobody's suggesting that this prisoner be given an Xbox. The request was that he be allowed to purchase an Xbox. That's a bit less controversial. If we allow them books, why not other media as well?
If America's prison system is so soft that it encourages crime, then Scandanavia should be swarming with murderers. Finland has open prisons and a very low recidivism rate. On the other hand, the US has one of the toughest prison systems in the developed world, and we still have the highest crime rates. Your hypothesis does not fit the data.
Unfortunately, engineers aren't scientists. Engineering is all about learning rules and following them, not asking questions. Engineers are significantly more conservative than scientists, and engineers are often found behind anti-scientific movements, such as creationism.
What we really need are scientists in positions of power. People who understand that the world is messy, and that you're wrong more often than not. People who understand the value of data.
They aren't necessarily citizens. Even non-citizens within Israel can't vote. Same for the most countries.
Non-citizens in the US can go home. Non-citizens in the West Bank are home. Either grant them citizenship or autonomy.
The Muslim-controlled nations must really piss you off. You should also be against a Palestinian state, because it would definitely be created as an Arab Muslim state.
Yes, correct. A Muslim government is exactly as abhorrent as a Jewish government, in principle. In practice, they're much worse because of Sharia law.
I's pretty simple actually. They claim a Jewish identity as a state, respecting Jewish heritage and culture.
I'm not even sure what this means. Either they give preferential treatment to Jews or they don't. If they do, they're not a secular state. If they don't, they're not a Jewish state.
Israel does not claim the West Bank.
Then GP's assertion that a single state exists is false.
Israel holds military control over the area
What's the difference between that and a government?
Israel should have the right to exist as Jewish state as long as it protects the rights of religious minorities. The Muslims, with about 50 countries under their rule, just cannot stand the existence of one Jewish state.
I can't stand the existance of any state based on religion or ethnicity. The very concept is repugnant. Government should be based on the will of the people governed, no matter what religion or ethnicity they are.
The idea that Israel can be both a secular democratic state and a Jewish state simultaneously is classic doublethink.
It is almost certain that any such database would end up in the hands of someone who should be in the database.
Righthaven didn't even own the copyrights to the files they were suing about. I doubt they have much else. What really needs to happen is disbarment of their legal staff.
Israel claims the West Bank. Can residents of the West Bank vote and hold office in Israel?
What muslim governments do is immaterial. As far as I'm aware none of them claim to be secular democratic states. Neither should Israel.
No. A state is defined by what it does, not by what it says it is. When the government acts outside of its constitutional bounds it becomes illegitimate.
If a large portion of the population is disenfranchised, it's not really a democratic state. If members of one religion have more rights than others, it's not really a secular state. Any state without universal suffrage and equal protection under the law is tyrannical.
After Tony Blair, it would be very, very hard to reach a new bootlicking low. This doesn't even come close to e.g. Iraq.
"dumb" doesn't describe it correctly.
Yes, yes it does.
What they have is a different attitude - to them the machine has a purpose, it's not a toy by itself
Play is the best way to learn. If you get a new tool, and your first reaction isn't "Sweet, let's see what this thing can do!", you're probably dumb. If you learn a tool, any tool, by simple rote memorization of the tasks you need to do, instead of understanding the theory behind the usage, then you're dumb.
they care about learning its fine details as much as most average geeks care about the difference between buckshot and birdshot and how to clean a shotgun blindfolded.
If you're going hunting and you don't know what sort of shot you're using and why, you're dumb. If you use a computer for a living and don't know how to open a text file, you're dumb.