I rather "count" curly braces than whitespaces, but since I let GNU Emacs take care of the "counting" for me it doesn't matter to me.
IMHO Python is close to impossible to read when on paper because of its use of indentation.
/mill
Re:What a tangled web we weave...
on
RMS Responds
·
· Score: 1
s/Open Software/Free Software/ig;
RMS doesn't claim free software to be technically superior but morally. It is ESR that does the former.
Free software can obviosly exist when proprieraty does, so you have to rebut that claim yourself.
Personally I think it is the skill of the developers that determine the technical quality of software (not language, development process, free or proprieraty, etc). I also think the notion of "buying" software is mostly (contract jobs aside) dishonest since I won't own it. I am still out on whether proprieraty software is morally wrong though.
Guillame pointed out problems with language wrappers in general. Mainly maintenance problems. He said nothing about how good or bad Gtk-- is. In fact Ken Nelson often refers to libsig++, the signal framework of Gtk--, as the most advanced out there (no need for moc like hacks if I understood it correctly).
/mill - which found the Mico/STL thread on kde-devel hilarious and oh so suiting
Viola doesn't offer anything that can help Mozilla. My point is only that we have barely gotten anywhere since late 1993. It is supposed to be a revolution, but it seems like most of the rebels got drunk and fought about who should be the leader after the revolution.
Since I haven't been able to get Mozilla to work on my measly P100 at home my first real look at it was yesterday when installing it here at work (PPro/NT) and I must say I am impressed.
Mozilla is damn fast and my guess they will have a product at the end of the year. I think it will surpass MSIE in support for XML and CSS too. Partly because they were forced to rewrite it from scratch.
Again. I am truly impressed. Solid implementation of standards.
If something similar could develop to benefit people with disabilities.. and if "web designers" could get their heads out of the lets-design-it-for-print world..
Apples and oranges. I need food to survive. Money can get me food. Money has a value.
1.1 billion people believe in a Roman Catholic god. Why don't they believe in a Protestant god or a Jewish god? Because it is faith.
It is irrational and based upon arbitrary axioms. Time and time again these axioms have been refuted and the RCC change their tune (unwillingly of course) and continue to preach the rest of the axioms until the next one is refuted.
Opportunism and a need to be in power. That is what it is. Sadly many people have a need to have complex things explained to them. When no real explanation can be provided they will take whatever is and then religion takes charge again.
Since logic doesn't apply to faith it is impossible to have an argument about faith without the participants questioning the said axioms. Without the axioms faith is doomed though and without faith there is no religion.
There may be a "god" or it may not. I don't know and since I don't know it would be stupid to desperately make things up. Heck, "god" might be a bum in NYC, but since that isn't "far out" enough people won't believe that.
Maybe there shouldn't be any strings attached if it is given. I don't consider GPLed software to be given. It is shared.
Those who don't want to be part of the community in which GPLed software is shared don't have to. The community gives freedom to those who don't want to deny others the same freedom.
Btw, I am not allowed to kill someone else either and even though that might reduce my 'freedom' I think it is perfectly acceptable limitation. I am not allowed to make GPLed software non-free and that is also an acceptable limitation.
Just like you can't expect to get the benefits of society without paying or in some other way give back to society you shouldn't expect to be able to take GPLed software and use in your proprieraty products. GPLed software is the currency that is used in the GPL community.
"Flash-in-the-pan" popularity? You just can't get over that Linux might be more successful than the various BSD variants, eh? Heck, what if the reason for this is partly due to the GPL? Looks like jealousy to me.
A myth I say. Netscape as the innovator and W3C as stale and slow is a myth.
Netscape chose not to implement stylesheets because they thought the proprieraty way would give them an advantage. Indeed it did early on, but a better design caught up on them (just like MS have problems with Win*).
I refer to my previous posts on the time table of CSS vs. Netscape Navigator.
Heh, I read an old mail (to one of the lists at W3C, can't remember which one) where Thomas Reardon (Microsoft official) rips into Netscape for their double talk.
In short Netscape agreed, as Microsoft, at a meeting to implement CSS support (positioning etc) and not create their own proprieraty extensions. Some time later Netscape release 'support' for their new tags that allowed for making columns and other things covered by CSS (the names escape me).
Netscape's response was to claim customer needs etc. Just like MS is pointing to customer needs when dumping MSIE to kill Netscape or whenever they embrace and extends standards.
/mill - who hasn't even started to rant about accessibility
A user agent Pei Wei (I think it was he) of XCF and O'Reilly wrote. Applets, tables, images, and etc. IMHO, we should've had full CSS2 (or equivalent) as the bottom line by now if proprieraty wasn't the way the big two went.
Netscape has done more to subvert "web standards" than MS - by far.
Look at some of my previous postings on dates of Navigator releases vs. CSS equivalents. Netscape as the great innovator and W3C as stale and slow is a myth.
Look at how far Viola had come in 94/95 and compare to where we are today. Saddening, eh?
/mill - who thinks Netscape should have kudos for deprecating their old proprieraty 'solutions' though
..and if I am only interested in sharing my software with those who share themselves (i.e. I am using the GPL instead of BSD/X/etc) I am evil?
Interestingly you accuse RMS/FSF/GPL for supporting Microsoft by not helping other proprieraty developers (Be in your example) since Microsoft make use of BSD code to squash their competition (like Be).
If proprieraty developers have problems competing with other proprieraty developers that is not my problem and it is certainly not my duty to help them.
/mill - who is currently working on custom proprieraty Perl code on the horrific Win* platform and fears Free software - NOT!
Heh, and if you or Ettrich would say anything "in the BBC" that wouldn't count either because you aren't talking for KDE then.
Miguel on the other hand is the same as the big bad GNOME that is out to hurt you innocent KDErs (note the pluralis).
I remember whines when Rasterman jokingly said something about crushing KDE. Guess he was the big bad GNOME at that moment.
Oh well. GNOME is bad and KDE is good. GNOME is a zealot and KDE is about freedom. GNOME is FUD and KDE has never had a license problem. Baboon is vaporware and Qt2.0 is the way of the future. C is for wannabees and C++ is for real development...
Umm, which interpretation is the right one? Yours? If they had chosen your's, for example, it would be their's too, so in the end the only one that matters is their own.
Easy to ammend IF all authors agree and are available.
/mill
Re:I still don`t like QPL
on
The KDE Future
·
· Score: 1
You can sell GPLed software, hence it is possible to have commercial GPLed software.
Say proprieraty when you mean that.
/mill
Re:As usual, Gnome supporters flip-flop
on
The KDE Future
·
· Score: 1
Where did he say he was a "gnome supporter"? He said he didn't like the way Konquerer is supposed to work (something he thought was the worst of Windows).
Everyone here doesn't consider Miguel's actions the "breath of God" and everything the KDE team do as bad. If they did you wouldn't post this, eh? Or all the others that are constantly whining about how mistreated KDE is on Slashdot or by Redhat or by Americans or by the green marsian conspirators or by...
What's interesting is how Kurt Granroth's claim that gtk's theme support is pixmap based will go down considering how much critique Miguel got for saying "pretty much tied to C++".
/mill - the green lesbian marsian conspirator
PS. Kurt is of course not lying about GNOME/Gtk+. Probably just didn't know enough about the theme support. Seems like a fair and reasonable guy too. DS.
Re:Which Gnome object model (vapour)
on
The KDE Future
·
· Score: 1
So? Where did he claim he was the saviour of free software? Where did he lie about the current status of his own software? Where doesn't he give enough credit to other contributors and act like a dictator?
Did he answer all those claims with "I have been told I have gone to far and they are right?". I don't think so. Reading the posts on the gnome-kde list I find only one that has those words.
The "legacy" GUI was a joke I used for the first time in my Gnumeric talk at LinuxExpo. Boy, you keep a close eye on my actions. Whoever provides you with information about every move I make should include in the mail "<miguel-was-giggling> legacy </miguel-was-giggling>".
Now, that being said, my close friends (specially Raph) said that I went a bit too far with my jokes in my talk. So I will cut on those jokes in the future. They are right, I went over-board, and this will not happen again.
So when you called me an idiot before I really wasn't one, eh? Any more ad honimem attacks when you are at it?
I am already subscribed. I fail to see where the claims are coming from.
It is not my job to find the reason behind your statements, that is your job. To ask me to build credibility for your claims is ridiculous. It is also close to impossible since I am to refute what I have then just argumented to be a valid argument.
Easy to make these claims. How about proving them too?
I only wonder how free Qt would have been if Miguel hadn't started this "copycat of an already existing project" (I wonder how the Finder and Windows people would label KDE then).
\begin sarcasm Oh, that is right. KDE developers didn't/don't care if Qt was proprieraty they wanted to slay that Windmi^H^Hows threat to the *nix desktop. \end sarcasm
Slashdot Mirror
Ask him what "land of the free" means or what a "hacker" is.
/mill
Just because the "common guy" have chosen to blur the difference between "free" and "gratis" I won't.
MSIE is gratis and gcc is free.
I rather "count" curly braces than whitespaces, but since I let GNU Emacs take care of the "counting" for me it doesn't matter to me.
/mill
IMHO Python is close to impossible to read when on paper because of its use of indentation.
s/Open Software/Free Software/ig;
/mill
RMS doesn't claim free software to be technically superior but morally. It is ESR that does the former.
Free software can obviosly exist when proprieraty does, so you have to rebut that claim yourself.
Personally I think it is the skill of the developers that determine the technical quality of software (not language, development process, free or proprieraty, etc). I also think the notion of "buying" software is mostly (contract jobs aside) dishonest since I won't own it. I am still out on whether proprieraty software is morally wrong though.
Put down that crack pipe.
/mill - which found the Mico/STL thread on kde-devel hilarious and oh so suiting
Guillame pointed out problems with language wrappers in general. Mainly maintenance problems. He said nothing about how good or bad Gtk-- is. In fact Ken Nelson often refers to libsig++, the signal framework of Gtk--, as the most advanced out there (no need for moc like hacks if I understood it correctly).
http://www.hungry.com/products/Ywindows/
/mill
Viola doesn't offer anything that can help Mozilla. My point is only that we have barely gotten anywhere since late 1993. It is supposed to be a revolution, but it seems like most of the rebels got drunk and fought about who should be the leader after the revolution.
/mill
Since I haven't been able to get Mozilla to work on my measly P100 at home my first real look at it was yesterday when installing it here at work (PPro/NT) and I must say I am impressed.
Mozilla is damn fast and my guess they will have a product at the end of the year. I think it will surpass MSIE in support for XML and CSS too. Partly because they were forced to rewrite it from scratch.
Again. I am truly impressed. Solid implementation of standards.
If something similar could develop to benefit people with disabilities.. and if "web designers" could get their heads out of the lets-design-it-for-print world..
Apples and oranges. I need food to survive. Money can get me food. Money has a value.
/mill - agnostic
1.1 billion people believe in a Roman Catholic god. Why don't they believe in a Protestant god or a Jewish god? Because it is faith.
It is irrational and based upon arbitrary axioms. Time and time again these axioms have been refuted and the RCC change their tune (unwillingly of course) and continue to preach the rest of the axioms until the next one is refuted.
Opportunism and a need to be in power. That is what it is. Sadly many people have a need to have complex things explained to them. When no real explanation can be provided they will take whatever is and then religion takes charge again.
Since logic doesn't apply to faith it is impossible to have an argument about faith without the participants questioning the said axioms. Without the axioms faith is doomed though and without faith there is no religion.
There may be a "god" or it may not. I don't know and since I don't know it would be stupid to desperately make things up. Heck, "god" might be a bum in NYC, but since that isn't "far out" enough people won't believe that.
Hey! You can only do so much with Visual Basic. Even if you are divine.
/mill
Maybe there shouldn't be any strings attached if it is given. I don't consider GPLed software to be given. It is shared.
/mill
Those who don't want to be part of the community in which GPLed software is shared don't have to. The community gives freedom to those who don't want to deny others the same freedom.
Btw, I am not allowed to kill someone else either and even though that might reduce my 'freedom' I think it is perfectly acceptable limitation. I am not allowed to make GPLed software non-free and that is also an acceptable limitation.
Just like you can't expect to get the benefits of society without paying or in some other way give back to society you shouldn't expect to be able to take GPLed software and use in your proprieraty products. GPLed software is the currency that is used in the GPL community.
"Flash-in-the-pan" popularity? You just can't get over that Linux might be more successful than the various BSD variants, eh? Heck, what if the reason for this is partly due to the GPL? Looks like jealousy to me.
A myth I say. Netscape as the innovator and W3C as stale and slow is a myth.
/mill
Netscape chose not to implement stylesheets because they thought the proprieraty way would give them an advantage. Indeed it did early on, but a better design caught up on them (just like MS have problems with Win*).
I refer to my previous posts on the time table of CSS vs. Netscape Navigator.
Heh, I read an old mail (to one of the lists at
/mill - who hasn't even started to rant about accessibility
W3C, can't remember which one) where Thomas Reardon (Microsoft official) rips into Netscape for their double talk.
In short Netscape agreed, as Microsoft, at a meeting to implement CSS support (positioning etc) and not create their own proprieraty extensions. Some time later Netscape release 'support' for their new tags that allowed for making columns and other things covered by CSS (the names escape me).
Netscape's response was to claim customer needs etc. Just like MS is pointing to customer needs when dumping MSIE to kill Netscape or whenever they embrace and extends standards.
A user agent Pei Wei (I think it was he) of XCF and O'Reilly wrote. Applets, tables, images, and etc. IMHO, we should've had full CSS2 (or equivalent) as the bottom line by now if proprieraty wasn't the way the big two went.
/mill
http://ftp.sunet.se/pub/www/clients/viola
Look at the screenshots - from 1994.
Netscape has done more to subvert "web standards" than MS - by far.
/mill - who thinks Netscape should have kudos for deprecating their old proprieraty 'solutions' though
Look at some of my previous postings on dates of Navigator releases vs. CSS equivalents. Netscape as the great innovator and W3C as stale and slow is a myth.
Look at how far Viola had come in 94/95 and compare to where we are today. Saddening, eh?
..and if I am only interested in sharing my software with those who share themselves (i.e. I am using the GPL instead of BSD/X/etc) I am evil?
/mill - who is currently working on custom proprieraty Perl code on the horrific Win* platform and fears Free software - NOT!
Interestingly you accuse RMS/FSF/GPL for supporting Microsoft by not helping other proprieraty developers (Be in your example) since Microsoft make use of BSD code to squash their competition (like Be).
If proprieraty developers have problems competing with other proprieraty developers that is not my problem and it is certainly not my duty to help them.
So YOU are this "Anonymous Coward" guy? You are one heck of a frequent poster. Keep up the go^H^H work.
/mill
Why don't you mail him directly and ask?
/mill
Sheesh, this is turning into Enquirer.
Heh, and if you or Ettrich would say anything "in the BBC" that wouldn't count either because you aren't talking for KDE then.
/mill
Miguel on the other hand is the same as the big bad GNOME that is out to hurt you innocent KDErs (note the pluralis).
I remember whines when Rasterman jokingly said something about crushing KDE. Guess he was the big bad GNOME at that moment.
Oh well. GNOME is bad and KDE is good. GNOME is a zealot and KDE is about freedom. GNOME is FUD and KDE has never had a license problem. Baboon is vaporware and Qt2.0 is the way of the future. C is for wannabees and C++ is for real development...
Again. Oh well.
Umm, which interpretation is the right one? Yours? If they had chosen your's, for example, it would be their's too, so in the end the only one that matters is their own.
/mill
Easy to ammend IF all authors agree and are available.
You can sell GPLed software, hence it is possible to have commercial GPLed software.
/mill
Say proprieraty when you mean that.
Where did he say he was a "gnome supporter"? He said he didn't like the way Konquerer is supposed to work (something he thought was the worst of Windows).
...
/mill - the green lesbian marsian conspirator
Everyone here doesn't consider Miguel's actions the "breath of God" and everything the KDE team do as bad. If they did you wouldn't post this, eh? Or all the others that are constantly whining about how mistreated KDE is on Slashdot or by Redhat or by Americans or by the green marsian conspirators or by
What's interesting is how Kurt Granroth's claim that gtk's theme support is pixmap based will go down considering how much critique Miguel got for saying "pretty much tied to C++".
PS. Kurt is of course not lying about GNOME/Gtk+. Probably just didn't know enough about the theme support. Seems like a fair and reasonable guy too. DS.
http://www.gnome.org/screenshots/gnumeric-bonobo.j pg
/mill
I guess it is as much vapor as Qt2.0.
Oh well.
Did he answer all those claims with "I have been told I have gone to far and they are right?". I don't think so. Reading the posts on the gnome-kde list I find only one that has those words.
So when you called me an idiot before I really wasn't one, eh? Any more ad honimem attacks when you are at it?
I am already subscribed. I fail to see where the claims are coming from.
/mill
It is not my job to find the reason behind your statements, that is your job. To ask me to build credibility for your claims is ridiculous. It is also close to impossible since I am to refute what I have then just argumented to be a valid argument.
Idiot? You sure got me there.
List the above claims and show where and when Miguel made them. I won't be trying to second guess your thought chain.
/mill
Easy to make these claims. How about proving them too?
/mill
I only wonder how free Qt would have been if Miguel hadn't started this "copycat of an already existing project" (I wonder how the Finder and Windows people would label KDE then).
\begin sarcasm
Oh, that is right. KDE developers didn't/don't care if Qt was proprieraty they wanted to slay that Windmi^H^Hows threat to the *nix desktop.
\end sarcasm